Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Changfa Engines => Topic started by: Boxelder on June 08, 2018, 02:59:53 PM

Title: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 08, 2018, 02:59:53 PM
Not sure if this qualifies as a "slow-speed" issue, so I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

As you've all seen, I'm in a new phase of my Diesel addiction, and am apparently acquiring new (to me) metal.  I picked up a 12.5kVa generator with a two-cylinder Chinese 295d engine.

Before you ask, yes I did indeed find the number one Google search return when looking up Changchai 295d with 332 hours, and I fully realize that I might have picked up a lemon.  But since I knew it was a potential lemon I had got it for a very reasonable price.  If the motor craps out in the near future I'm still money ahead on the Stamford Newage gen head, is how I see it.

The radiator has some rust in it, as it was manufactured in 2002 and went to live in a prepper's garage for a decade and a half with no maintenance whatsoever.

At a bare minimum I'll be needing a new radiator cap, oil filter, and fuel filter, and that's just for starters.  Does anyone have a source for these items?

How about oil type?  Would Rotella be a good choice?  I'm still learning when a multi-grade oil is appropriate and when straight weight would be.  I've never found the definitive thread on that topic.

Also I'm looking for some documentation on the thing.  I found a PDF with the dimensions and capacities, but I was wondering if anyone had a repair manual hidden in their computers somewhere?

Thanks, all!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 08, 2018, 05:11:01 PM
http://bfy.tw/IW7k

Ist one is a PDF
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 09, 2018, 01:08:45 AM
Aw, man! I’ve been lmgtfy’d! The shame!

Actually that was the manual I’d already found. It’s nice enough, but I was kind of hoping for something by a North American user with experience working on them. The only things which keep coming up when I search is sales sites in China, this manual, or that guy who had the bad luck with one. No juicy shots of teardowns and repairs at all.

So nobody on here finds this particular model even slightly interesting? Nothing to add at all? I mean hell, at least trash talk it a little bit! I’m trying to throw you guys a bone here.

Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 09, 2018, 08:16:18 AM
I had to look on YT to see the beastie is Id never heard of it before so I assume it's quite rare in Europe. you could go on Ali express and look at the listings there. There may be a seller or manufacturer on there that understands English enough to email you a workshop manual.

This site has manuals for many engines and they are very helpful people https://www.internalfire.com

I doubt you will find a Haynes type manual with step by step photographs but someone on this site is sure to have one and be willing to share information
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 09, 2018, 08:50:33 AM
Well Boxelder, since you have thrown out the challenge, I have also had a bit of a Google search. It would appear that Changchai is the oldest surviving manufacturer of diesel engines in China, they have been manufacturing for 100 years and claim to have produced 2,700 million diesel engines. These vary in size from small engines for home use to industrial engines and even ship engines.

I am in two mind as to the quality. One would expect that a business that has been going that long and produced that many units would know what they were doing. On the other hand it is just possible that the reason they have made so many is that they don`t last long. Either way I am surprised that we in the western world know so little about them.

I think this deserves further investigation, sadly I don`t speak or read Chinese.

Bob

 
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 09, 2018, 12:49:49 PM
Great stuff, guys!  I was hoping for this type of commiseration with fellow diesel sufferers.  It was an engine which was so rare in these parts that I just had to have one in order to play with it, and to see if (more like WHEN) it conks out.

More background:

This unit was sold new by Hardy Diesel back in 2002.  It currently has 332 hours on the Hobbs meter.  I've tried to both call and email Hardy Diesel regarding info on this unit but have received no response at this point.  They seem to have disavowed its existence, or have gone out of business.  I'd have expected better service from someone who has Paul Teutel Sr. as their celebrity representative! ;)

What shocked me about this motor is how solid it feels.  There's not much artwork used in reducing weight in the block casting, and it's so unexpectedly dense that I thought I might have missed lag bolts holding it down to the floor when I began to lift it with the boom pole on my tractor, a Mahindra 4505DI.  In retrospect I should have brought the Kubota M7040SU and had the extra lift capacity on the bucket loader with pallet forks.  The garage door at the seller's house was a bit low for that beastie, however.  But it all worked out in the end and without incident, so that's nice.

All in all, I thought the same thing as Glort - it should be a fun little unit to play with.  For the price, I have allowed it some mental wiggle room on the dependability factor.

Let's talk about rust in the cooling jacket.  How have folks successfully removed it without disassembling the entire engine and hot tanking?  I'm going to remove the radiator and have a pro give it a once-over.  Then it'll get all new fluids, belts, and hoses.  But from the look of the radiator I'm expecting some pretty significant rust in the jacket.  My normal rust removal techniques of electrolysis, muriatic acid, or purple power degreaser seem out of place here.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 09, 2018, 02:31:39 PM
I was thinking about this engine this morning. The "not for sale" brothers near me bought a scrap walk behind road sweeper it has a Kubota engine 2 cylinder liquid cooled diesel engine.

I was looking at diesel generators on an Irish website they are Branded Pacini, the seller claims the engines are made under license from Yanmar. And the chain of thought continued...

I think it's unlikely the engine is an original Chinese design unit it's a copy of something that is or was in production and theres likely a manual available for the original design.

Photographs would maybe help
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 09, 2018, 10:58:25 PM
Hey Boxelder, found this review of your engine on Google, looks like you might be in for a bumpy ride http://gpsinformation.net/chinagen.htm

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 09, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
Found a maintenance manual https://www.rotek.at/produkte/pdf-aktuell/Motoren/!ED4W-Huafengdongli/295-2100-Series/ED4W-295&2100-Serie_01_Operation-Maintanance_en.pdf.

Page 61 recommends de-scaling using a mixture of caustic soda and kerosene added to the cooling system. Just be very careful with caustic. It eats aluminium and brass components.

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 09, 2018, 11:30:34 PM
Hey Boxelder, found this review of your engine on Google, looks like you might be in for a bumpy ride http://gpsinformation.net/chinagen.htm

Bob

Im amazed someone hasn't offloaded one onto me!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 09, 2018, 11:38:09 PM
Hey Johndoh, once Boxelder reads that review, he`ll probably want to part with his if you want it! ;D
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 11, 2018, 12:12:42 PM
I'd read all about the trials and tribulations of that gps fella before arriving at my maximum offer price.  I figured with the generator head being of seemingly good quality, made in England and all, I could always remove the gen head from the motor if it craps out and turn it into a PTO driven or another small diesel genset.  My eyes were well and truly open.

There's something in me that seeks out the rare and unusual, especially things which are extremely prevalent in the rest of the world but for some reason aren't popular here in the U.S.  Some recent examples include my discovery of the Lister style engines and the Changfa diesels.  They currently provide power for so much of the rest of the world that it seems unbelievable that this style of engine never caught on here.  We have Briggs and Stratton, I guess.  But that seems like a pretty weak substitute for these things, which are designed to run on and on and on for years on end with minimal maintenance.  Maybe we don't have them because we've had for a very long time a fully developed and reliable electrical grid to power pumps and other industrial gear.

So this Chinese motor and its notorious unreliability is actually a selling point to me.  I want to run it and see if it fails, and I'm willing to take a gamble on it just to see how it plays out.  Who knows, maybe this is a clone of another design as was mentioned earlier, and it's made by one of the more dependable manufacturers.  Maybe the gps dude got a dud from a no-name chop shop.  I'll report back occasionally with the details.

My wife is very understanding regarding my unusual personality traits, have I mentioned that already?
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 11, 2018, 12:13:32 PM
More pics
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 11, 2018, 12:18:48 PM
Very interesting tip about the kerosene and caustic soda.  Back when I first got into machine restoration I thoroughly pitted an aluminum guard for a South Bend lathe by leaving it sit in Purple Power cleaner.  Lesson learned there.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 11, 2018, 01:08:01 PM
Hey Boxelder, It would appear from the photos and the reviews that the engine itself is probably well made, I believe the problem is that in an effort to expand production and sales they have cut corners. This usually involves sourcing the cheapest parts while cutting back on R&D and quality control. If the engine design is robust then run it and replace cheap hoses and ancillaries as you go, you should end up with a reliable donkey. Sounds like the genny head itself is worth the money.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 12, 2018, 09:31:46 AM
Kubota knock off, what a surprise! How do the Chinese get away with stealing/reverse engineering other peoples intellectual property? If I were to do that here I would very quickly find myself in court facing huge damages for breach of copyright and infringement of patent.

That said I own several machines with Chinese Honda copy engines and most of them perform well enough but I doubt there longevity.

So give it a bit of love and attention and it should last for years.

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 12, 2018, 10:29:54 AM
Thanks guys.  Good info.

I've put a lot of thought into the IP theft by Chinese companies.  It seems to be absolutely endemic to their nature to take without asking and claiming IP as their own.  This will need to be addressed before they can be taken seriously a true global power.

All those sticky political issues aside, does anyone know which particular model of Kubota they knocked off with this design?  Also, why would they have chosen this particular Kubota design vs. any other diesel design within this HP capability?

Granted, I've just discovered the world of large single-cylinder diesels, but I think I'm beginning to get a grip on how they got here.  The Chinese singles (Changfa/Changchai/Laidong/et al) seem to be knockoffs or were at least heavily influenced by an old Yanmar walking tractor design.  They seem to have been originally created for use on said walking tractors, hence the otherwise inexplicable headlight commonly found on them.

Yet I've seen so many claims that they are actually a German design.  Would that be a German design specifically created for the Chinese makers, or would it be a patent-violating copy of a proven successful design?

And this leads me to another entire line of thought:  How did the Chinese choose which engines to copy?  Was it based on manufacturing ease, manufacturing cost, durability relative to cost, or fuel efficiency?  Is there a list somewhere of the "donor" engines which the knockoffs are based on?  For example, the 195 or 1115 design - is there a direct western or Japanese equivalent which was simply copied?

So many questions.  It really does fascinate me to try and figure this stuff out.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 12, 2018, 10:33:09 AM
Also as far as the rust removal from the water jacket goes, I'm first going to try an EvapoRust product called Thermocure.  It's designed to do exactly what we're talking about, and for $16 I'll give it a shot.  If I'm not satisfied with the result I'll up the ante and try some harsher chemistry.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 12, 2018, 12:14:44 PM
Couldn`t agree more, I had a Victa 2 stroke lawnmower, got it second hand six years old. scraped it this year because the chassis had rusted out. Engine probably still had ten years left in it. That said, it drank fuel and two stroke oil. I replaced it last year with a top of the range modern Victa mower with a Briggs and Stratton engine. Nothing but trouble, carburettor off it weekly cos it won`t start . It`s also developed a nasty vibration which I think is probably the lower main bearing, I`ll know for sure when the bottom oil seal fails and spits sh!T everywhere.

I am a big believer in the idea that you get what you pay for, Chinese is as good as any product, if you want to compete with them you need to find a way of producing a better quality product at the same price.

The alternative is to buy old, quality machinery, restore it and enjoy problem free use for the rest of your life, which I think is the whole purpose of forums like this.

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 12, 2018, 01:49:03 PM
Well I tried hard not to get into political nuance.  It's a topic which influences our current discussion, however.

Glort, you're very well informed about the history of diesels and other small engines.  Thanks for your input on that.  But please don't assume everyone from the U.S. is completely naive about global politics and how things work.  I've been to every continent save Antarctica, at last count 25 countries, and have personally been to China to do product and factory inspections when we were thinking about importing and selling evacuated tube solar water heaters.  To be told I need to open my eyes to the nuances of politics comes across as being a bit off key.  And I also have no idea where you got the idea that I think Yanmar is Chinese.  I never said or even implied that to be the case, and I already own one of their tractors.  Also a Kubota and a Mahindra.  Yes, I also know the Mahindra is Indian, not Japanese or Chinese.

Also, the reason I'm here on this forum with you guys in the first place is that this is an exceptional repository of knowledge by some fine folks who live and breathe internal combustion.  Twice now I've been told to "Google it" as if I haven't put in the homework before asking questions.  Yes, I could do all this on my own.  And usually I do it all by myself.  But what fun is that?  How would I get the viewpoints of others who already have been steeped in the lore for decades?  How would I learn about the questions I don't even know to ask?  And also by asking the seemingly simple questions and having them answered here, they're saved for posterity.  And I think you all can admit that it's at least a little bit fun to be able to show off your hard-won knowledge to the newbie and to each other.

To outsource the search for knowledge completely to Google while ignoring the people's knowledge is going to be one of the downfalls of civilization.  The Lore should be kept alive from person to person, not outsourced to our Silicon Valley overlords.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 12, 2018, 06:13:59 PM
It's no great surprise that China is copying other peoples designs after all they make them for us! The Chinese engines on stuff like pressure washers and generators are good because they have the blueprints and specs. I mentioned earlier there's a company selling generators with 186F engines but they're made under license in China under license from Yanmar. My Korean brand TV was made in China as was my Finnish brand phone and Italian brand coffee machine. To be honest they are good enough products the big companies are interested in the bottom line if they could train monkeys to make stuff they would.

Just wondering, if I found a product that was invented, designed and produced in China would I get away with making rip offs in Ireland and selling them in Beijing? I think not,  most if not all of the western world is up to their tits in debt to the Chinese .  I doubt anyone really wants the Chinese to call in the debts
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 12, 2018, 11:16:38 PM
Knew an industrialist when I lived in the UK, b*stard claimed to be a socialist and even ran in the local elections. Laid off all his 400 workers and shut the factory so he could transfer production to China. More profit in importing goods than manufacturing and exporting them. No wonder we are all in debt to China when our own industry is run by greedy, selfish twats like him.

I never run E10 in any home engines, as you say it is hydroscopic and causes too many problems. The problem with the Briggs and Stratton lawnmower is that there is no fuel filter, just a strainer in the fuel tank. Main jet keeps clogging with bits  of grass. One day I`ll get around to fitting an in line fuel filter. That`s if the bottom bearing doesn`t fail first.

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 12:09:34 AM
We don't get E10 in Ireland or rather we do but we don't really have a choice it's in our unleaded petrol. I use fuel stabilizer in the lawnmower, pressure washer and the 2 stroke generator. I don't know if it does any good but it does add a fiver on to a tenners worth of petrol. Most used things I buy with a small petrol engine usually needs the carburettor cleaned or replaced (very good Chinese copies for £12.00)!
We used to have 4 star pumps in Ireland they seem to have went the way of Park Drive cigarettes and scantily clad ladies on lager cans. I occasionally see 4 star pumps in northern Ireland so I assume 4 star is still available in the UK?
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 01:07:25 AM
B&S fuel stabilizer ingredients according to the data sheet

Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 13, 2018, 02:51:33 AM
Aaah... There should be a word for "The feeling you get when house guests finally go home."

Today I had some moments for myself for the first time in nearly a week.  The generator was unloaded much easier than it was loaded thanks to the Kubota M7040 and pallet forks.  I hacked a diesel line together, attached the battery, and it fired right up.  Whew!

Here's a few more shots of the engine data plate, which I couldn't see in the darkness of the garage before I picked it up and was too tired to find after the loading.  I love engine data plates.  So satisfying.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 08:22:01 AM

If I could only get ethanol laced fuel, I'd wash it.

Pour water in it, shake it up and let it separate.  The Ethanol will go into the water and form a layer and the clean petrol will be underneath. Drain water off from bottom of drum and clean Petrol left.

Yep, Done it numerous times and it does work.

No, no water in the petrol because pure petrol and water wont mix at all. 

Also have a look at the MSDS of your Fuel stabiliser.  Naptha ( lighter fluid, shellite, Coleman fuel and other names it's sold under) is a VERY common additive to all Oil and fuel miracles in a can. If that's the main ingredient in your fuel treatment, You can probably buy it for 1/10th the price by volume from your hardware or paint supplies store.

MANY additives for fuel and Oil treatments have this in them ( no matter what they are supposed to do) so if it's in the stabliser as well, there is a much cheaper alternative to getting a better result than the packaged additives that usually just have naptha and something like Diesel and kero in them.

Thanks Glort. From what I have been reading its pretty similar to Zippo lighter fluid, turpentine and refined lamp oil? I assume some of the other ingredients are like the secret ingredients in grandmas soup/sauce/cake etc?
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 08:24:35 AM

Quote
B&S fuel stabilizer ingredients according to the data sheet

"Distillates Hydrotreated Light"   No idea what that was so I looked it up....

Naptha!

:laugh:

It's a bad day when I don't learn something!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 13, 2018, 09:13:46 AM
The only thing I learn every day is how little I know, a life time of studying and learning and you guys still leave me baffled.
Well done with firing up the Chinese monster, hope she runs well and gives good service.

Bob
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 09:30:24 AM
I have seen videos of Glort throwing oil into an extremely hot incinerator and I thought "you mad bugger" I read his posts and concluded the mans a genuine pointy head, big brain, smart man who happens to be very good with his hands (the amount of smart people that have no practical skills is amazing" I pay €5.00 for 100ml of fuel stabilizer, thanks to Glort I can now buy 750ml of mineral spirits for  €2.00.  Thanks mate!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 13, 2018, 04:08:09 PM
Any chance to get a link to the video, John?  Sounds like high quality entertainment to me.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 04:19:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cim4WDyHX08
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 04:22:56 PM
I can sometimes figure out alternative ways to do things or fix things mine are usually Heath Robinson affairs and probably are occasionally a little dangerous.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 13, 2018, 05:27:19 PM
Thanks John, man that's a hoot!  Glort has another subscriber thanks to you.  Time to binge watch some fire videos!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: guest23837 on June 13, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
I can imagine Glort flying a single engine plane, low on fuel, full cargo of nitro glycerin and overloaded with passengers. He would laugh and say "fcuk all to be frightened of" whilst flying at tree height and at high speed. He's the man!
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: Boxelder on June 14, 2018, 11:38:00 AM
Another quick report back:

Scraped rust out of radiator cap neck.  Lovely.

Drained coolant.  Still green, but swampy green instead of fluorescent green.  Flushed with water.  Added EvapoRust product.  Topped up with water.  Ran for two hours no load at low-mid RPM.  Will run again twice a day for the next few days like this, as recommended on the product label.

After running, drained oil.  It looks about as you'd imagine an oil new in 2002 would look.  Extra black with lovely metallic sheen, almost like one of those fancy hot rod paints which changes reflective qualities based on the angle you're looking at it.

I'm going to run Rotella with some Lucas oil stabilizer in it unless anyone has other thoughts on the topic they'd like to share.
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: KC7NOA on June 26, 2022, 12:16:28 PM
Did this have a generator head? Do you have any pics of that?
Is it a common mounting? Looking like a lister compatible?
Title: Re: Shanghai (Changchai?) 295d parts availability and looking for a manual?
Post by: KC7NOA on September 07, 2022, 09:46:51 AM
bump