Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: dax021 on June 07, 2018, 02:20:53 PM

Title: WI
Post by: dax021 on June 07, 2018, 02:20:53 PM
I have finally got a batch of WVO ready for consumption in my SR2, but am reluctant to try it without WI.  I still haven't got my head around how to install WI, but remember reading a post where someone modified an oil bath filter to feed water into the intake.  To me this would be the easiest solution, but am concerned about whether it will work and also whether the filter will still work as an air filter, not having the oil bath.  I know Ed and Glort will be able to advise.


Thanks,
Peter

Title: Re: WI
Post by: EdDee on June 07, 2018, 03:55:23 PM
Hi Peter,

Glort's the man for WVO advice.... but.... in the interim, fuel it up, run it, if it looks like its starting to ail, a squirty bottle and a bit of water puffed down the snout while up to running temp to break any carbon free....

But let's wait for Glort to give a real answer!!

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: WI
Post by: dax021 on June 07, 2018, 08:07:35 PM
Thanks Ed, will see what Glort has to say.  Also hoping the OP of the oil bath WI will jump in
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 08, 2018, 01:08:14 AM
WVO isn't going to carbon an engine up in a few or 20 hours unless something is very wrong with the engine to start with or you do something highly questionable with it Like try to roll coal for a few hours. 

My experience with Oil bath aircleaners is VERY limited. My Lombardini has one and that was full of water when I got it from some Git obviously trying to fill it or something when the thing was washed.  I did fire it up and figured there was a strange noise in that area so pulled the AC off and found milkshake in it.  Took it all off and washed it out and everything was fine.

I wouldn't use the AC as a humidifier myself.  I think it will catch all the dirt in the air then eventually send that back into the engine. Water evaporates, oil does not.   Clean it and let it do what it's designed to .

You can set up the WI in a load of ways.  Would help to know what the situation is with the engine, Mobile, in a shed, generator running long hours, genny rolled out to play with etc.  Basics of WI is feed the engine some water on a regular metered basis and that's it.

 What capacity displacement is an SR2?
Title: Re: WI
Post by: dax021 on June 08, 2018, 10:33:07 AM
Hi Glort, thanks for the info. 

Engine is in a shed, permanantly mounted running a 4Kw alternator @1500RPM.  I think the displacement is 1100cc, twin obviously.  I use it for standby power for when my solar can't cope or when welding, running a compressor, etc.  I had it serviced when I bought it and have since put on just over 200hrs without any problems.  I guess on average I run it about 5-10hrs a month.  I read your (or was it Ed's) comments about feeding a drip into the intake and watching the exhaust, but haven't quite figured out how, being a twin and the fact that the exhaust goes through the shed wall and then underground.  Maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing and should just run the WVO and squirt a litre or so of water down the intake once a month.

Thanks for the advice.
Peter     
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 08, 2018, 03:14:13 PM

I very  much prefer the  constant/ while running treatment, others  seem to find good results with a good squirt.

Myself  i'd be looking at something like a fine hypodermic as a metering injector and just  have that in the inlet.  You could attach it to a small bottle so it fed  300ml or so into the engine and that was it.  don't have to have it 100% of the time but each time while running under load for a good while is I think best.

you don't need a lot either, just so long as you are getting it in there preferably while running under load and you get a decent amount in.  Couple of squirts won't do it, You want to put through half the bottle to give it a chance to work.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 08, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
Mr X's had a very simple and effective system for WI that I liked. He used a shallow covered pan (I'm thinking Tupperware or similar) located just barely below the intake manifold, with a small tube and flattened brass end into the intake manifold.  No chance of disaster in failure, stops when engine stops.  The shallow pan with water just below the intake is to allow the minimal intake vacuum to do the job and provide relatively uniform rate of delivery. A needle valve or crimped brass tube in that small silicone (RC fuel line) line could restrict the water consumption rate.

The addition of methyl alcohol to the water to prevent freezing in winter was also discussed.  Glort reported methyl alcohol improves diesel power so that's a plus.

The additions I was thinking of making were to add a shut off valve controlled by engine temperature and a magnet-hall effect sensor to sense throttle position.  I'd keep WI off until engine was up to temperature and load was better than half load.  I've also pondered adding a float valve to the pan, making it quite small, and feeding the float valve from a larger gravity feed tank mounted on the wall.  The tank should last 8 hrs of run time, since I do a check over and oil service at that interval.  If the very small pan tank has an overflow tube that runs to a catch pail, a float valve fail will be of no concern. 

 I have some relatively low power very small 12V solenoids for low pressure that I could use. A snap switch could be use for head temperature sensing, it could feed the throttle arm magnet/hall effect or magnet-reed switch for a combined signal. A power transistor or DC solid state switch could then operate the solenoid.

My Listeroid does much of it's service in air compression so AC power isn't always present.

Glort, let me know if you think this is overkill for a remote start, unattended engine; I already have the controller shut down the engine if has no electrical or compressor load for 10 minutes.  I assumed that WI on a cold (just started) or unloaded engine would be a bad idea.  Getting rid of the throttle position sensing would make it much simpler, though it is certainly not too tough.



Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 09, 2018, 01:22:23 AM

Sounds good to me Bruce.
I don't think I would bother with the throttle positioning sensor though. Once the engine is up to temp, as long as the water flow is not too great it will happily ingest it.

I'm presuming the engine runs constant speed and an unloader just kicks the compressor in and out?
 That being the case, speed is more important than load.  I have tens of times poured water down the inlet of a diesel Engine at substantial flow rate and I wasn't running along side the vehicle at the time! :0)
 As long as the revs are up  and the flow rate of the water is not over powering, It will be fine.
Yes, You can pump a lot more water through under load but that is not required here.  A small, constant ( more or less) flow will work fine.  I use the word constant as in when the engine is running over hours rather than just a squirt from a bottle at the end of each run. If one times it to run 10 Min every hour, that would be constant to me rather than the batch pumping.  I don't doubt that works, I have done it myself many, many times, I just believe a more protracted application for engines doing longer hours like vehicles and gennys would work even better.  The constant application I see as more of a preventative in stopping buildup rather than an antidote once it has occurred.

If one has an engine they pull out the shed and use occasionaly, Sure Give the thing a spray, that the most practical thing to do and would be fine. If you are running the thing 4 hours a day most days, then there is greater ease in setting something permanent up and the justification in run time for it.

In all honesty, I like pumps.  I like to pump water for WI and I like to Pump Fuel for burners.  Pumping eliminates a lot of problems and the BIG advantage is it gives you wide and precise control.  I don't suggest it much because most people say " I don't want to make things complicated".
To me complication is doing too much that is not necessary and gives no benefit.
Putting in a pump and a speed controller/ timer/ whatever is very simple and it affords a LOT of advantages over gravity and other methods.

I look at the risk. Pump fails, No WI. Big deal. not going to explode because the WI stops. You have 100 hrs of run time to get another one before it matters. Go back to your squirt bottle in the mean time and it's still OK.  Despite what people say, Nothing is Bullet proff at all so you do what suits your Mindset and what suits your abilities and knowledge to apply.

If you were going to have a solenoid and a temp sensor you could drip feed the water in easily because it won't run till the engine is running and up to temp.  May be easier than using a pan and getting that to work Whatever suits one's prefrances.
A lot of people make a big thing out of the engine filling with water.  It's NOT a big deal at all unless you leave it for a week+.
I have done it on a number of occasions.

Firstly, unlike popular Opinion, I don't believe there are too many conventional (pull or electric) starters out there that have the ability to turn an engine hard enough to bend or brake anything with the engine Hydrolocked.  Couldn't say home many small engines I have taken crank Nuts off  by packing the cylinder with rag through the plug hole to lock them up and then put a 4ft bar on the end of the spanner to move the net. NEVER damaged an engine like that yet.

When you see the engine is full of water, you pull the injector or spark plug and push the water out. Spin it up a bit to clear it and that's it.
Check the oil and if it's not over saturated, reinstall plug or injector and off you go.
An amount of due Diligence is required with these things. If one needs it to be fool proof because they are too foolish to disconnect something when they are going to leave it for a long time or fail to take obvious precautions, well that's different but chances are if one is that distracted, they'll fk something up anyway.  :0)

The thing that gets me with the simple Obsession is people only tend to apply it to DIY.  If you said that Driving a car from the '50s was better than a modern car because there was less to go wrong. People would say you were an idiot and site all the comfort, saftey and convenience as well as reliability a modern car affords. ( You and I with Mercs may be an exception!)  They are very happy with all that " Complication" but then say Oh no it's too much when you suggest putting a timer or a sensor on a stationary engine.  I don't get it myself.


Like your Idea with temp sensors and solenoids, I don't think it's a complication, I simply think it's using some simple technology to get a better result than not applying those systems or methods... which have inherent problems of their own.   
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 09, 2018, 08:13:57 AM
Thanks for the helpful advice, Glort.  It's much appreciated.

A low power, 12V dispensing pump does have some merit- same controls as a solenoid valve and perhaps about the same current.  The supply could then be anywhere, and no float valve simplifies things too.

The smallest one I can find uses 300 ma at 12V. No doubt the water flow is excessive but I suppose I could run it off a cmos 555 timer can cut the duty cycle to 1 second in 10 or so.  I'll still have to rig a bypass for excess flow.

Maybe I'll find a better suited pump on ebay tomorrow AM.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 09, 2018, 10:36:27 AM

Wasn't so much trying to push you to a pump Bruce as to say it's what I'd use and adding what some see as complication be it Solenoids and button switches or pumps has very worthwhile merits.

I'd use a pump for the very reasons you state. I can put any size tank I want on the floor and the thing won't syphon for a start. With a PWM or a timer -I- can control the dosage much easier and more accurately that with valves and varying water levels. That's easy for me to do the mental arithmetic on, other far more educated people could get other things to work that would be beyond me.

Other thing I'd also look at doing is just putting a Carburettor on the inlet.  Open the throttle wide or just take it out and with a lot of these carbs now with plastic float bowls brass or plastic Needles and seats, running water through shouldn't be a problem at all. You would be sure of a nice constant Mist through the engine and you could easy vary the amount with jetting although I'd doubt it would be possible to put too much water through at any setting a petrol engine ever ran on.

Put your Solenoid on the feed so it didn't allow any water in until the engine was warmed up and have a 5? min shutdown timer to use the water in the carb before the engine stops and you are there.  I think that may be the simplest and most effective way of all with the right carb.
Other think I have played with on the bench is running water through a fuel injector.
Petrol Fuel injectors only run at 40 PSI or so and those caravan type diaphram pumps will do 80-120 easy and cost under $20. Add a little pulse timer board off fleabay and you can set the injection frequency to any duty cycle you like.

From what I have read, typicaly against popular belief, fuel injectors will not corrode up with water.  The pintles are made from stainless or something hard that won't rust.  For you this could be a winner.  Don't pump the water, have it in a tank and bleed some of your compressed air into the water tank to push it to the injector.

If you wanted to play with that, give me a couple of weeks and I'll grab some injectors and send them to you.
The board I got off fleabay, you'd probably prefer to make your own and incorporate the temp sense and other things into it.
I was looking at this initially for the fuel injection for a stationary pulse jet but I thing the frequency would be too slow.  that said, If I had like 4 injectors firing in series to spread the cycle time of each one.....

Also wanted to see how they would do for an oil burner. they may not spray real well with oil but the metering is the important bit.  I could get some fine control for low outputs which is the trick with these things.  I can build a burner to do 300Kw standing on my head. Doing one that does 3KW steady..... that takes some doing.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 09, 2018, 04:11:40 PM
Good ideas for thought. I can see why petrol injectors would be appealing as a means of atomizing and metering for your oil burner design. 

I think small droplets are OK for WI in the intake manifold so a brass tube into manifold with venturi effect seems appealing; even with a micro DC pump it could be set up with a tee-bypass and crimped brass tube insert flow restriction so that water head is insufficient without intake manifold venturi/vacuum.  Silicone tubing would make that readily visible for adjustment.

I don't have AC power when doing a lot of air compressing; I like to unstrap the generator head as it does affect my fuel consumption.  So I'd like to keep my power use to the minimum.  I do have a little 40W panel and 12V battery (hand me down's from my no-alternator car that have lost too much capacity) in the engine shed, but I like to keep running power draw to a bare minimum. 

I'll take a look today at floor (pump) vs wall mount tanks (gravity) and see what seems easiest. 

Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 12:20:13 AM
I checked out my engine room for water injection possibilities.  I think I'll try a covered shallow pan just below the intake manifold method developed by Mr X first.  There's a nice spot on the wall that I can add some brackets and a plastic storage bin as the feed tank.  I found the small solenoid valve in a parts box in the engine room, and even a needle valve so this could be a very cheap to build setup.  I've got to look at my thermal snap disc collection next.

edit- sorry, wrong video link here, will re- upload and update the link next.
Here's the on-topic video I meant to list:

https://youtu.be/AiMfoOW6CLw
Title: Re: WI
Post by: 32 coupe on June 10, 2018, 12:36:08 AM

Nice video, as always !


Gary


Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 01:44:00 AM
Thanks Gary, Alas, I uploaded the wrong video- it was one showing my Listerioid setup but not the one I had intended for this thread. 

Because of the ease of implementing Mr X's intake venturi feed method as I discussed, I'm rounding up parts  to give it a try.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 10, 2018, 04:13:54 AM

I'm still not 100% sure how this works. What I had in mind is different to what you showed in the vid.
No doubt I'll get to learn something once again when you show the vid of it set up and in action!  :0)
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 05:00:00 AM
It's Mr X's method as he reported here; a shallow pan with water level just below the intake manifold, feeding a pipe in the intake manifold. Intake suction pulses pull the water up the last inch in via venturi.  He flattened the end of the tube to get reduced flow and finer droplets.  I'll report on how it goes. I'll just be adding the solenoid valve and head temperature switch. 

Title: Re: WI
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 10, 2018, 08:47:56 AM
Very much looking forward to this, I love to learn new things from people with experience. More pics and videos PLEASE

Bob
Title: Re: WI
Post by: dax021 on June 10, 2018, 10:52:56 AM
Yes please, also looking forward some pictures.  I presume with a twin, one would just T the water line, one branch to each intake?
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 10, 2018, 01:27:37 PM

The intake pulses must be greater than I realise to be able to pull the water up at all on a non restricted intake.

Is the pan of water replenished? I'm not getting how level is maintained? Even in a shallow pan it would take much for the water to go from 1" below the intake level to 2 or 3 inches.  I would have ( seemingly incorrectly)  thought if the depth varied the flow rate into the engine would too.
Spose that could be offset with an inverted bottle that helped maintain the level bird waterer style.

Looks like many interested eyes on this setup!
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 03:48:59 PM
You nailed it, Glort.  The CS intake vacuum is so limited that flow rate will vary with height above the water, and even a few inches will change the flow rate.  Mr X already proved this approach works using a shallow pan to reduce the variation, so I will pursue it further. The flow rate will also vary with restriction of air filter. I'm not sure what Mr X used, I have a paper filter and he may have used the stock oil bath.

That is the advantage of Glort's preferred metered, pressurized system; a consistent flow rate.  But I'd like to see how this intake venturi/vacuum method works out.  As you pointed out, Glort, a fairly wide range of WI is OK, and once set up if flow increases by 50% because the air filter is getting dirty, it should be fine. A reduced WI rate as supply is used up is also not a show stopper as long as the variation is not more than 75% for a useful volume of water.

Your rather brilliant and original idea of using an inverted bottle to maintain a constant level would completely eliminate the water level variance ... A two liter soda bottle inverted in a small container might be an easy to service WI supply with a totally constant water level.  A float valve filled small container would also do that and allow for a larger water supply.

I'll know more today after I test the intake vacuum and venturi flow rate variance. I want to try different tube diameters in the intake manifold to see if that affects suction. 

Glort or any other experienced WI users:  Could you provide a guesstimate of a range of water flow that you think would be appropriate for my Listeroid CS 6/1?  The minimum effective water flow rate to reduce carbon buildup using dino diesel would be particularly helpful. 

Dax021- yes, a tee should do a twin.  I'll try to collect vacuum and flow data today if the wind doesn't do me in. I'm still at the thinking and collecting data stage.  I will update as I progress.










Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 07:35:33 PM
I measured the suction on the running CS 6/1 intake manifold at only 35 mm or 1 3/8 inches of water.   So the range of water that can be used without a flood on stopping is very shallow.  For the emitter in the intake manifold I used 3/16 OD brass tube with the end cut at 45 degrees facing away from the flow. 

https://youtu.be/LBIlMnNyCic (https://youtu.be/LBIlMnNyCic)

I see why Mr X flattened the end of his tube to restrict flow-  with the open tube, as you raise the water level (in my case raising a 10 ml syringe body attached to a telescoping stand), the flow is fairly brisk (>1 ml per second) until the water gets below the flow level and then it just stops. 

This tray feed method could certainly be used effectively as a batch WI process- get the engine warmed up and then fill up your tray; it is essentially gravity flow until the water level gets down to the stopping level of 35mm below the highest point of the manifold emitter. If you fill your tray above 35mm, you risk an intake flood if the engine should shut down.  The WI flow rate should vary linearly with water level.   

This is not what i had in mind for my use since my generator shed is quite remote and I'm more interested in something automatic that just needs water every 8 hrs of engine run time, with my usual runs of 40-60 minutes.
I'll need to add some complexity; a constant water level to be regulated via float valve or the upside down bottle method Glort suggested.  I can now fiddle on my bench with the manifold orifices  and needle valve to get the desired flow rate with a head of about 20mm of water.

If I use a 4 ml/minute flow,  8 hours of run time would use about  2 liters of water.  Is that sufficient? Would pulses of higher flow be better for dislodging deposits?





 


Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 10, 2018, 07:43:54 PM
The well tested WI dosage rate I have come up with over the years as  MEDIUM flow for decarbonising works out at  !00Ml Minute Per liter of displacement . This is for a vehicle engine doing 50%+ load. IE, it's not running the whole time the engine is rather when the thing is climbing hills or accelerating.

What is a 6/1? 1.5 L is it?  Uses a bit over 1L / hr fuel?  On vehicles I have used plenty more water than Fuel over a long run but not going to need that with this but worth bearing in mind.
Given the very slow rpm and the fact the thing is always under load, for using Diesel I'd be thinking as little as 10 Ml/ Min would be sufficient. That's 600Ml hour, sounds plenty. That said, I'd be testing upping that to 15-20 Ml min for the waste Fuels.
You could certainly hurl more water in there but I don't see any benifit to that. You can only make something so clean and if you go above the point where all the buildup is gone, you're just making more work having to top the water up.

With suck a low water rate, I would expect any performance improvement to take time if there is reason for there to be one at all. In a perfect condition engine there may not be but if something is clagged, It will take time at this rate to work.  I learned that early on.  New Vehicle, Pound the water in and wash the thing out. Once the performance levels out ( as they all have) then you can back it down ..... Or not if you want to put in plenty of meth as well.
I have found meth to help with cleaning as well. This may be just down to the fact it's a very clean burning fuel.

To get meth for the water, I used to buy the E85 we can get here and add water.  The petrol and the water meth separate. By adding a known amount of water you can work out what the meth dosage is and pour off the petrol which then goes into the veg oil and dilute the water meth mix to what you want.

I did once try dissolving the petrol into the mix as well But It's EXTREMELY touchy on dosage rates. have revs up and hit the WI and you get a kick in the back. Short shift and mash your foot and the sounds as the engine nails are not good.

If one has the water capacity, Upping the water rate can be VERY helpful in lowering engine temps. I used to pull a high covered trailer with my old Merc. Along the highway at the limit i'd have to have the heater on full blast ( especially in summer) to pull the extra hat out the thing to stop it cooking. With the water running at 300Ml/ Min, the thing was 10 kmh faster AND about 20oC cooler. A huge difference.  I don't think it was just cooler inlet temps as the thing had a snorkel picking up from the front and the effect was the same as Climbing mountains in winter where the air was plenty cool, I think it was more the water pulling the heat out the engine itself due to phase changing it. Takes a lot of energy to boil water especially instantly.

Anyway, I reckon  the economical rate would be about 10Ml min Bruce. Would be interesting to pull the injector and take pics after a run before you fit the WI and then after a run with the wi working as you want and see if there is any obvious difference. The exhaust port in the head would also be good as that may be a more responsive area than the Injector buried in it's little pocket. I'm sure that would benifit but I would also expect it would take time.

Slow and steady is the trick here and I don't think it will take a lot of water as long as it's on all the time. And yeah, the variation won't matter, I think it's more the hourly rate that counts.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 10, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote
If I use a 2 ml/minute flow, that would about 8 hours of run time for 2 liters of water.  Is that sufficient?

My gut feeling it it's on the low side but like I said, Pull the injector and look in the exhaust port, take pics, give it some runs and see if there is any difference. If not, up the flow rate and give it some more runs and try again.  :0)

Here's some more complication that maybe defeating the initial purpose.....
What about a small pump that lifts the water to the tray. The tray has an overflow that goes back to the (25L ) drum of water on the floor. For a pump, a tiny bit of air bubbling up through a tube may provide enough flow back into the tray going on the amounts you will be using and the level of the tray will remain constant.  You wouldn't need a very big tray if you had the level constantly replenishing. You can use a large supply of water so you have many hours run time in reserve.

You would want another solenoid to control the air flow for the water lift so it wasn't using air needlessly when the engine was shut off but that could be on the same circuit as the one that was on the emitter in the intake.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 10, 2018, 09:02:14 PM
Thanks for the help with the flow rate, Glort.  I can carry 3 gallons (11 liters) of water in a 5 gallon pail with lid per 8 hr oiling service.  In winter I'll add methanol to avoid freezing.  That would allow up to 23 ml/minute water injection.  I can use a 5 gallon pail with lid for a cheap gravity feed storage vessel.  The float valve tank can be as small as will fit the $9 float valve for 1/4 OD plastic tube supply I found on Amazon. 

Air to pump water via bubbles is something I have read about.  One deep well pumping company sold windmills with an air compressor attached to the blades. It that pumped deep water wells via rising air bubbles for stock tanks...no moving parts in the deep well.

I may play around a little with your bubble idea.  A small overflowing tray to be the constant water level tank inside a larger storage tank, with water pumped to the tray via air bubbles or micro water pump... not a bad idea since it eliminates the float valve.  Mostly I need to scope out the limited space in my engine room to see what will fit and will make filling the water tank easy.



Title: Re: WI
Post by: mike90045 on June 11, 2018, 01:27:32 AM
What's used in windshield washer antifreeze - is it methanol ?  Besides the color dye, anything else in it?
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 11, 2018, 02:05:50 AM
I suspect some detergent and ammonia plus the dye and methanol.  I'm not sure I'd want to use that for water injection.  I have 5 gallons of methanol I bought at the auto race track that I can use up.

I did find a cheap up to 100ml/minute volume dosing pump that draws only 80ma of 12v and could work for someone that wants to do a direct pumped WI on a CS or other small engine.  For most if driving from a small switching 12V supply off the generator mains, that should suffice for drawing up from a covered bucket. You could even get fancy and switch the AC supply through a snap disk epoxied to the head.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B4YUOTC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A34ANJ4QLY2ZT&psc=1

I'm still undecided. For gravity flow I did find decent small float valve for 1/4 OD plastic line.

https://www.amazon.com/Kerick-Valve-MA252-Float-Adjustable/dp/B0077RAX4W/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1528678654&sr=1-3&keywords=mini+float+valve+1%2F4

Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 11, 2018, 04:08:17 PM
After thinking and sleeping on it, I'm going with Glort's suggested pumped WI. I've ordered the cheap dosing pump listed above.

I do like things as simple as possible, and I find gravity quite reliable and cheap,  but in this case the pump draws less power than a solenoid valve, and I can just sit a 5 gallon bucket with tubing through the lid in the corner and feed the dosing pump with that.  I'll add some new Basic code to my existing PICaxe 40x2 engine controller so that it waits 10 minutes after load is detected before turning on the pump; so no new head temperature sensor required.  Likewise, stopping pumping with no load and on any condition caused shutdown is another couple lines of basic since the sensor inputs and associated code are already there.

These peristalsis type pumps can run dry with no problems and are self priming, so no float switch is required to stop a run dry situation. I'll can adjust flow rate via voltage dropping resistor and/or duty cycle as well as flow restriction. Voltage reduction is ideal since current will also be reduced and the motor will last longer.  I'll test the pump as soon as I get it; perhaps Thursday.



Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 11, 2018, 09:34:01 PM

I bought a couple of those pumps a couple of years back to use for a low output burner. They seem OK but there appeared to be a bit of resistance  in the rollers. I put a drop of oil in the mechanism ( the cover just slides off) and it seemed much better.  I used a little PWM board to control speed but then discovered I needed to run them direct anyway.  I think they will do what you want pretty well Bruce.

I did think that any Lift the intake had with the water would be a narrow range but That may have been all that was needed.
Seems the Pump really is the less complication for you anyway.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 11, 2018, 11:33:28 PM
Glad you've had some experience with this type of pump.  I ordered some slightly smaller silicone tubing to use with it; that should reduce flow rate and roller pressure as well; on similar pumps  flow rates are specified for several different sizes of tubing which gave me that idea. 

I should get the pump late Wednesday.

Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 12, 2018, 01:31:29 AM

Between WI and Veg oil for the vehicle, collecting or burners, there aren't many Pumps I haven't tried!
Haven't been many successful either.

The ones I use atm for water and burners are the Digraph type pumps commonly used for water pumps in caravans and the like. They come in pressures up to 120 PSI which I take no notice of because I don't run much pressure in them anyway. Flow is supposedly 4.2L l min.

I have one of those on the WI for the Vehicle and another on a PWM for my main burners.  4L min limits them in reality  but for practical work they are fine when run off a PWM controller to slow them down. I also tried the Little facet type puls pumps but I think the Veg killed the diaphram inside them. Worked For a while and stopped.

For oil collection, I have never gone past the Modified Small block Chev oil pumps I modify Myself. Other people use them with the standard 3/8" or whatever Ports. I Bypass them and weld " ports right into the side of the casing.  Ups the flow rate dramatically and the things will self prime and pump gelled oil. Been looking for 10 years for something better ( and still reasonably priced for the job) and never found a thing. Seen a lot of high priced pumps that do little to no better in flow rate and some of those had a 5 HP petrol motor where I am driving mine with a 300W 24V motor.


I think the little dosing pumps will be perfect for the WI application. Plenty of flow and enough lift being essentially positive Displacement.
don't know why Dosing pumps are generally so expensive. There is nothing to them in reality.
China Come to the rescue again with low cost stuff to do the job one coudn't afford from western sources.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 12, 2018, 02:52:00 AM
I had to search widely to find a pneumatic diaphram pump with the right diaphram material for handling biodiesel. The stuff destroyed my hand crank barrel pump and my air drill powered vane pump in just a few days.

The China made motorized ball valves have changed my automation world; I can get for under $50. what used to cost $350 to $500. The ones with the super cap that close on power off, thus acting like a super low power solenoid valve are especially handy.   

But by far the best thing China has done for me is Zennioptical.  I have MS related vision problems- difficulty moving eyes and focussing which resulted in ferocious headaches shortly after putting my glasses on in the morning.  By experimenting with under-correction to various degrees, and finding just the right correction for various tasks and distances, I do WAY better.  This took buying a trial lens set, trial frame set and owning a lot of glasses.  By sticking to under $10 bargain frames including RX lenses, this was possible.  It also made me realize that the US opticians had been screwing me my whole life.  The Zenni bargain frames and lenses are better quality, by far, than the $350 glasses I had been getting.





Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 13, 2018, 11:37:26 PM
Got the cheap peristalsis pump and tested it.  It's junk.  Wouldn't pump at all as delivered, the bare motor shaft is friction drive on the nylon rollers- a bit of oil on the shaft meant it was just slipping and not pumping. Only the tubing pressure on the rollers pressing against the motor shaft?? Not an reliable design for remote use.  I cleaned it and limbered up the tubing and then it worked- but it draws 250ma of 12V, not 80ma.  Specifications from China are rarely meaningful.  At 6V it still draws 230 ma but barely moves.  The motor is overloaded for this application and draws way more current than needed for the task.  It is certainly never going to last the 6000 hours service life specified.

I've ordered a different pump, $15, with alleged gear drive, 6V, 30ma. 





Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 14, 2018, 02:41:46 AM

Mine must have been different. It has the bare shaft drive on the rollers but they definitely worked even on oil!

Was a bit small for what I wanted and I'll agree longevity may be a problem as would anything with a cheap brushed motor but I didn't expect a lot for the money.
I'll have to go drag mine out and give it a run to see if it's still OK. Saw it in a box up there the other day with the speed controller still attached.

Looking at the work to be done and the setup of the motors, do you think the one you ordered is capable of only pulling 30 Ma?  Seems unbelievably low for a motor to be doing much at all to me. Driving gears in any pump creates some friction, even just in the seals. then there is the effort required to move the water in the first place. Gear pumps have many advantages but I would not have said low power input was one of them.
 I think you may be dissapointed with this pump as well.

Why the need to draw such minimal power Bruce?

What about using your air? I have done this for oil burners.
Small regulator pressurizes  a Drum on the floor 1-2 Lb. You could tap from the bottom of the drum or have a tube through the lid or top ( lids really need disconnects for attaching and removal for water filling.) which the water is pushed up to where you want it.
You could have a solenoid on the water feed to start the injection and one to cut it off.
With the water at a fixed pressure you will get a fixed flowrate so your bent bit of pipe will administer the same amount of water.

Uses no power at all.

For added Complication/ benifit, you could do what I did.  Fill an old gas bottle with Compressed air. Use an old Oxy Regulator for your pressure from the gas bottle into the water tank. they are extremely accurate at low pressures.  That's it.  Keep it separate ( if preferential) from your other air supply.
Worst that can happen is you run out of air and the engine gets no water till you top it up.  Of course a small Gas bottle with 100 PSI will move a lot of water ( or oil) before it needs pumping up again.
Of course there may be no need to bother with that, I'm not sure of your needs and working preferences.

Seems to me though you are short on electrical power but have endless energy in the compressed air ( and probably a lot of experience with it as well as left over fittings etc) which will easily do the job you want. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 14, 2018, 03:27:35 AM
I could live with the 250ma, but the pump I got is just too cheesy in design.  The motor is over loaded, irregular in sound, warm. I don't see it lasting the rated 6000 hours.  It did put out about 100 ml/minute at nearly no lift as specified.

A low pressure drive of a water vessel is a good idea, as is using a small bubbling of compressed air to pump water up via tubing into the intake manifold, but I'm still hoping for an acceptable quality electric pump.  Otherwise, I'll reconsider.  I'll get the new pump on Friday.

Compressed air is a bit annoying at times- things like regulators, pilot valves, and check valves all leak and that is "normal".  For example a low pressure regulator will occasionally not seat well and slowly leak a lot of air over half a day.  No matter the brand. I do have a variable amount of leakage the entire time the Listeroid is running, since the controller needs air for shut down control and control of the air compressor.  The pilot valve for the compressor leaks a little (again, it varies) and the air compressor unloaders which must be pressurized if the air compressor is belted but not being used. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: veggie on June 15, 2018, 11:55:32 PM
BruceM

A bit late to this thread. I just saw your video. (Nice system by the way  ;)  )
Have you considered these small 12 volt pumps to push the water into your misting nozzle?
They are typically used for small fertilizer sprayers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Water-High-Pressure-Diaphragm-70W-Self-Priming-Pump/112845409190?epid=2171526613&hash=item1a461c4ba6:g:YW4AAOSwGvZamQmh (https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Water-High-Pressure-Diaphragm-70W-Self-Priming-Pump/112845409190?epid=2171526613&hash=item1a461c4ba6:g:YW4AAOSwGvZamQmh)

A lot of people use them for water injection here in the great white north.
No gravity required and they can be activated by manual switch for temporary dosing,  a timer, a temp switch, or whatever you like.
Control flow with a needle valve in the discharge line.

Veggie
Title: Re: WI
Post by: veggie on June 16, 2018, 12:13:17 AM
....aslo, if you want to get really nerdy you can add a 12 vdc pulse width modulator for flow/speed control.
I use one of these pumps to push warm thin WVO through my 5 mic filters and I added this little unit to control the flow rate.
Just dial the speed to the flow that you want. Very inexpensive.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-24V-48V-2000W-MAX-10-50V-40A-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller/192229829982?hash=item2cc1ca6d5e:g:6TIAAOSwCkZZUgJr (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-24V-48V-2000W-MAX-10-50V-40A-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller/192229829982?hash=item2cc1ca6d5e:g:6TIAAOSwCkZZUgJr)

Veggie

Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 16, 2018, 12:46:22 AM
Thanks, Vege.  That's WAY more pump and power use than needed for my desired trickle of 20 ml/minute.  When doing only air compressing, I have 12V from battery, charging via 40W PV.  So realistically 2.5 amps and perhaps 1 amp on a cloudy day, and running off battery when dark. Right now, my run time current draw it tiny, perhaps 40ma total. 

I got the Yosoo brand peristalsis pump today.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The rollers ARE gear driven, it works fine without fussing with the tubing, but it draws 250 ma at 6V.  Not terrible but a far cry from the listing of 30ma.  They are lugging the motor pretty badly with an inadequate gear ratio. Somewhat disappointing.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I spent the afternoon updating my Picaxe engine controller software for the new 40x2 part, which is really a PIC 8 bit 18F MCU.  It allows software reassignment of all input/output pins so now I've got loads of spares.  The new parts are upwardly pin compatible, just some minor software mods needed. 

I do appreciate the child- oriented simplicity of the Picaxe as I become more impaired; never any mysterious serial programming problems, dirt cheap, great tech support.  I've used the Arduino where I needed interrupts, and time critical real time bit banging and RMS AC voltage calculations for my inverter, but alas, their programmers are error prone and flaky, there were serious bugs in their math library and undocumented features in the compiler relative to interrupt routines setting flags.  Basic problems that reminded me why products cobbled together with Open Source software from multiple sources are not my preference when I have serious work to do.  I'll also add that for 5V operation, the PIC 18F series uses roughly half the power of the comparable AVR parts, even when adjusting clock for equivalent MIPS. 








Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 16, 2018, 01:41:26 AM

That's the type Pump I use for my WI.
At 4l/ Min they are a lot of Pump even for my 4.2L 4WD with meth when they are nozzled down and the engine is pulling hard.  They also pull about 4A  under load.
One good thing about those pumps is they come in high pressure outputs. The 16 Lb of Boost I run on my engine does not make a bit of difference to the pups output and I still get the full amount of water when I need it.

I hadn't thought to use a speed controller in that application but it's a great idea I missed. I have a few around so guess where one will be applied.   :laugh:

There is one last suggestion for a pump I have Bruce, Should have thought of it from the start because it was the first Pump I ever used. You will no doubt think WTF but years back when I did use it I saq a test online and these pumps are decivingly well beuilt and long lasting.

Windscreen washer Pump.
Prefrably the Black covered GM type.
I used one for years on my merc's and only went to the pulse pumps because the washer Pumps couldn't deliver the flow I wanted.
They will pull more power than you want but you can easily put a resistor in circuit to slow it down and reduce amperage.  The best ones are the GM type with the black cover which are in fact made by Bosch.  They last longer than you would expect a little pump like this. Can't say if it would be 6000 hrs, Frankly I doubt anything that small would go that distance but they are readily available and Cheap.
I could get them from wreckers for $10 ea here in any amount.

This is the type -I- used and can vouch for. There are plenty of others but some are flaky. This type seemed great. They do an astonishing pressure, from memory it was something like 60 Psi.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Holden-VE-VF-WM-WN-Pump-Asm-Front-Windscreen-Washer-NEW-GENUINE/173362803937?epid=3019103063&hash=item285d3a74e1:g:pYMAAOSwYK1bI1pu

They should be common on GM, BMW and Porsche amoungst others.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 16, 2018, 06:17:44 AM
I did some fiddling with the Yasoo pump.  It must be the type you used, Glort, as you can oil it and it does run a bit smoother.  The other roller-friction on the bare motor shaft type just spins the motor shaft without moving the rollers if you oil it. 

It can't be slowed down by voltage much- won't start or run below 5V...and still has way more flow than needed for my 6/1.  I tried some smaller thin wall silicone tubing but it didn't work at all.  Ends up the wall thickness is critical so that the roller closes the tube completely.  Another slightly smaller tube with the wall a bit thicker was too thick and would stalled pump.  The tubing when squeezed in the space between the rollers and the cavity wall has to be JUST right.

I'm in no hurry so will look some more.  What I want is 20 ml/min at 36 inches of head. Car washer pumps are gross overkill for a Listeroid WI, I think.  I have an old MB one from my parts car I can try on reduced voltage to see how it goes.

I did experiment with compressed air bubble lift.  Alas, it requires a substantial depth of water to work so isn't practical for a bucket lift.

Still pondering the best solution for my needs.




Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 16, 2018, 07:25:36 AM

With the yasoo pump Bruce, did you just try slowing it with a resistor or did your try PWM?

I have read that PWM maintains the torque better than voltage dropping does.

Surprised about the bubble lift. When I was playing with the Hydrogen generation the other week I was getting substantial water coming through 5m of small vinyl hose with that when I didn't want it to and it was coming just from a 3L milk Jug.  Pushed the water all the way through the hose with no problems.  Maybe having soe/ a Loop rather than straight up is the key?
Also seen it work on my fish tanks and they aren't much  deeper than a bucket and a straight lift.
I wonder if something like a small inverted funnel with the air coming from underneath would help? 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: dieselspanner on June 16, 2018, 08:54:20 AM
Back in the day I had a VW camper which had the screen washers driven by compressed air from the spare tyre, so....

How about a system using a tyre as the air reservoir (the pressure won't vary much over 10 or 15 litres of dosing), using a needle valve to control the flow with the fuel rack opening and closing a valve?

Engine stopped, no flow, fuel rack open, off she goes. Should you be worried about the motor stalling with the rack wide open, mount the inlet as a drip over a 'sump' with a drain fitted with a valve held closed by the vacuum in the inlet manifold. As Glort said, worst that can happen is you run out of air or water.

Simple, cheap, no electrics at all and there's probably enough bits in the 'it'll come in handy pile' to knock up a test rig for free.

Cheers Stef

Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 16, 2018, 10:33:41 AM

Tyre is a good idea. I suggested the Gas bottle for exactly the reasons Bruce said.  Connections on air always seem to leak. they may start out OK but over time in my experience... they leak. That said, elephant snot on the threads/ joins does go a long way. I also use PVC Cement with good results. Coat the threads, screw the joint together then recoat the outside. Not pretty but does seems to be effective.

After an old Tyre Myself atm. Just the tyre. I saw a thing on the net where a guy mounted a small engine to one as a mount for noise and Vibration. Like to try it with some of my little Diesels.  Some of them hop so much I think I need engine mounts off a truck. I tried some car gearbox mounts and they were way too soft.

For the "roid, I reckon one of those tyres off one of those earth moving trucks that are about 8 Ft tall and weight 1.5 ton would almost be enough......  ::)
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 16, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
I had the same idea about a funnel; I may play with it today.  There is an endless low pressure air source available without sipping on my 500 gallon compressed air tank... that's the exhaust.

RC model airplane folks use the exhaust pulses tapped from the muffler to run a diaphram pump for pumping small amounts of smoke fluid into the preheat/muffler.  A servo actuated smoker valve controls the output flow.

Another pump off of crankcase pressurize pumps fuel in aerobatic models to insure uniform fuel feed. Some use the simpler system of pressurizing the fuel tank via muffler tap.  They also had tiny check valves, as I remembered.

Alas, the RC diaphram pump is for very high rpm engines, it wouldn't be suitable for WI on on the CS engine. 

Pressurizing the water storage tank just enough to allow the intake vacuum to finish the job is one way to go.  A 3-5 gallon vessel that can handle 1.2 psi yet be cheap and easily filled is a tough nut.

The CS exhaust pressure is likely more than sufficient to pressurize this tank.

Pity the all plastic peristalsis pumps aren't readily modified.  With a tiny geared down motor they would be sweet.

Pulsed 12V to the 6V pump would preserve some torque, though at the price of motor heating.  Problem is all the available pumps I can find so far are 10-1000x the needed flow; too far to adjust by PWM, really.

I still have gravity. Even when I get to where can't lift a 3 gallon bucket I could always feed the supply tank with a little submersible pump from a bucket on the floor. 

Our first rain in months today. A good day to look at giant scale RC gadgets for fuel/smoke pumping to see if anything might be suitable.





Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 16, 2018, 06:27:10 PM
Quote
Alas, the RC diaphram pump is for very high rpm engines, it wouldn't be suitable for WI on on the CS engine. 

This one would:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Honda-Cadet-Pro-Kart-Pulse-Pump-Fuel-Pump-NextKarting-Kart-Shop/131984482411?hash=item1ebae3606b:g:WG8AAOSwn7JYEiRM
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 16, 2018, 06:50:01 PM
Sweet little exhaust-diaphram fuel pump, Glort!
No penalty for flow restriction on these, so it should do the 20 ml/minute rate.  Water/meth should be no trouble either. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 16, 2018, 07:04:32 PM
Alas, those pulse diaphram pumps are run from pulsing vacuum- hooked up to the gas engine intake manifold I'd guess.

The CS intake manifold vacuum isn't likely strong enough to operate one. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 16, 2018, 10:04:47 PM

Normally Bruce they are Connected to the crank case on both 2 and 4 Stroke engines.

They work very well and I'm sure the Carnkcase pulse as I have observed on my own roid would be more than enough for them.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 17, 2018, 12:29:22 AM
Here's a better quality looking one:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pulse-Vacuum-Fuel-Pump-For-Mikuni-DF44-211-14-Liter-Single-Outlet-Snowmobile/401238472913?epid=2096984791&hash=item5d6bad38d1:g:uVwAAOSwImRYRol7
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 17, 2018, 02:47:06 AM
Is is likely to be able to draw up water 36 inches?  Sure looks like a sweet solution- didn't realize they existed for regular engines...I'd only used them for RC engines when I was a young man. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 17, 2018, 03:35:57 AM

I have no experience with them Bruce but I would think they would be more than what you need.

They are used on large outboard engines as well as go karts, ATV's, Jet skis and other things. I was looking at the Mikuni originals and they are specified at 65 Lph.  For that they are going to need decent pressure.
I think 1 PSI would do a meter of lift.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 17, 2018, 05:27:21 AM
I'll have get one and test it, it might be just the ticket.  Thanks for the great idea, Glort!
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 17, 2018, 07:03:44 AM

Was your Idea, it just reminded me of the right part I should have thought of before.

I think You could tap into Crank case or exhaust. I Imagine with the run you have, there might be a significant pressure spike in your exhaust pulses. If not, tapping  into the crankcase door will surely do it. If they will run off a 2 Stroke pulse, there is no way they are not going to run off a 'roid pressure wave.

Was watching this interesting Vid on WI earlier.
Bit different to what we are looking at but I found it interesting just the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skuIkE93TR8

Title: Re: WI
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 17, 2018, 08:44:06 AM
Good thinking guys, my ride on lawn mower uses one of those as a fuel pump, it ran faultlessly for 6 years until the engine head gasket failed and the crankcase pressure increased. Bloody thing vented hot sump all up my leg. Replaced the head gasket and flushed out the diaphragm pump, runs like new.

Not sure how much pressure there would be in a Lister crankcase because they already incorporate a spring steel diaphragm to release the pressure. If it works you could fit two one for WI and one to pump fuel rather than gravity feeding.

Very interesting.

Bob
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 17, 2018, 01:46:26 PM
Quote
Not sure how much pressure there would be in a Lister crankcase because they already incorporate a spring steel diaphragm to release the pressure.

Yeah I thought of that Bob but I don't see it being a problem.
On 2 strokes which these things are widely used on, the crankcase pulses are very low because the things are only ever moving air through the ports.
On a 2 stroke the pulses would be weak but rapid, on a Roid they are going to be deep but slow. Given the amount of water Bruce requires, they could do about 5% their rated output and still be there.

the thing is, these pumps work both ways. The CS crank case breather system is designed to keep a neg pressure in the crank case so will have a strong Negative pull that way even if the down stroke is vented. The upstroke of the piston will Pull the diaphragm in the pump up, the down stroke will allow it to relax. Pumping will be great I reckon.

Most small petrol engines either have a similar system with a reed valve incorporated, or the China 4 strokes tend to just vent the crank case gasses up through the push rod gallery's into the rocker cover and the gases are taken straight from there to the inlet manifold.

I was reading the other Night where they have now put a Limit on the F1 cars oil consumption.
The cheeky engine designers were Putting like 25L sumps on the engine and deliberately  feeding the oil vapors back into the manifolds to get better fuel consumption. they WERE fuel limited, sumps could be as big as they liked!  Things would use 200L of fuel and 50 L of oil to get them round a race.  Now they are only allowed to have a max Oil consumption.
Next thing will be they have 40L windscreen washer bottles full of water/ meth mix.

Don't laugh, 300ml/ min of 50% water methanol works out at 14 HP worth of additional fuel. They could probably inject 2L min into those screaming things with the huge CFM going through them and blow past everyone else on the field..... that's if they ran 50% meth and not 90 or the like.


I love my Mower. A 30 yo Honda with a twin Cyl in line water cooled engine. Thing purrs like a Kitten. I take REALLY good care of that because as they say, don't make them like that any more and I'm not too sure they would even do parts.
I hate petrol industrial engines although I have a ton of them.  I am looking for a mower with a clapped motor in reasonable condition to do a Diesel conversion with one of my many little engines.
Got a John Deer without a Deck to use as the tractor round the place because I don't want to stress the Honda.  I has a Kohler engine which is in completely disproportionate condition to the rest of the machine.  Excellent runner and never seen a puff of smoke and compression is through the roof for a crappy petrol stationary engine.  Very smooth runner too surprisingly.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: ajaffa1 on June 17, 2018, 10:58:37 PM
Most small 2 stroke have a small diaphragm pump built into the bottom of the carburetor. They have a lift pipe and a return to the fuel tank. They shift a lot of fuel, as you will know if you have ever had the return pipe break or blow off.

Only trouble with a four stroke with this sort of WI is that you are going to get two injection pulses for every combustion stroke, doubt it would matter but you might want to experiment with a needle valve for correct dosing.

Bob
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 18, 2018, 04:16:15 PM
I've got a pulse pump on order; too interesting to not try out.  Bob raised an interesting point; with 2 diaphram actions per crankcase per intake gulp, you do get dribble into the bottom of the intake manifold unless you implement a little shallow dish to catch it.   That's the advantage of Mr X's vacuum fed approach- all water is entered into the peak intake airstream.

 I also ordered a kit of RO tubing, float valve and shut off valve for $13. so that I could do a gravity fed constant water level version of the intake manifold vacuum fed WI.  The diaphram pump could also feed a small constant level tank- by just having an overflow port to drain back to the supply bucket.  All quite cheap to implement so worth some dabbling to find a nice setup for CS WI.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 21, 2018, 04:12:24 AM
I got the vacuum pulse type diaphram fuel pump today and tested it hooked to the 6/1 crankcase.  It works nicely but has a total lift of only about 13 inches of water (zero flow); intake and outlet combined, it matters not where the pump is between them.  At 10 inches it pumps a steady flow way more than needed, flow starts falling off rapidly from there. These pumps are direct single diaphram types so pumping lift can be no more than the vacuum in the crankcase.  I'm sure some CS engines with less hours may have better crankcase vacuum, but that's all I've got.  It's lower than typical gas lawnmower engines because the crankcase volume of air is so large relative to piston displacement volume, I think.

So I decided that gravity is pretty reliable and cheap and I've had enough pump fiddling. The float valve and plumbing kit came along with the diaphram pump. I've got the two tanks made up with fittings, float valve and plumbing mounted.  Tomorrow I'll do some flow rate adjustment testing and then will add my little solenoid valve for Picaxe control.  I sleeved down the 3/16 ID brass tube in intake manifold to 1/16 ID for starters. I'll have the top of the regulated water level in the float filled tank just below the brass intake manifold inlet blow the manifold, so I can see the static water level in the supply tubing. The intake manifold will pull it up the last 1.5 inches.  I used clear Sterilite storage containers (that I had on hand) for the two water tanks so monitoring them will be easy. The 5 gallon supply bin is intended to be filled to 3 gallons and low enough that I can fill it easily.  The big lid will allow me to fill it from a 5 gallon bucket.

I'll do photos and/or video once I get the bugs worked out,






Title: Re: WI
Post by: EdDee on June 21, 2018, 10:29:07 AM
Hi Bruce,

I am using a gravity/float bowl type setup....has worked flawlessly for me in the past... (I didn't want additional pumps and things that could go wrong....)

I have a 3mm copper pipe that sits center of airflow in the air intake, coaxial to the intake manifold. The copper pipe stops slightly inside the intake port on the head (1/2" or so).... There is no constriction at the end of the pipe, free flowing...

The float bowl can be height adjusted so the level of the float bowl is around 4 to 6" below the level of the intake center (This will vary according to the length of water feed pipe you use, your air filter, and of course the air intake plumbing... also, be careful to prevent multiple dips in the water feed pipe, cumulative head is a bugger on a low pressure system) .... Adjust this height to change water flow. As soon as you restrict the pipe and put a nozzle on it, it gets prone to blocking... There is little difference in effect from mist to droplet, but droplets do work better.

With the above arrangement, there is no chance of flooding the engine, as intake draft is required to induce water...set and forget.... Oh yes, one small addition was a small valve on the water line to allow for water shutoff, seldom used, only when the tube was withdrawn to prevent spillage ultimately...

In the beginning, I shut the water off before shutting down and turned it on after warm up, ultimately, I ended up simply leaving the valve open, there was no ill effect on my system either...

Cheers
Ed
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 21, 2018, 03:43:17 PM
Ed, Thanks for the info on your successful gravity-float valve-vacuum WI setup.  I'm intrigued that you had about 5 inches of water vacuum; I'm guessing the engine in question isn't a CS type? Perhaps you were thinking 4 cm which is just what I measured.  I measured my 6/1 Listeroid running intake vacuum at about 1.75" in the middle of the intake manifold and airstream.  Your coaxial tube projecting into the head inlet (good idea and easy to implement ) might be that much more effective but it intuitively seems unlikely to me. I'd really like to know if this 4-6" of water vacuum at inlet is on a CS type engine!

I did note that my engine didn't complain a bit about modest rate WI when cold, but I didn't try starting cold with water. Like you I like things as simple as practical. 



Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 21, 2018, 05:13:21 PM

If I ever tame my Jackhammer, I reckon I'll try a Carb off a Bike or something like a 2" SU..... if they can still be found.
Instead of administering Fuel, no reason why they wouldn't work with water and be highly tune-able.

I'm surprised the pulse pump wasn't more effective.  It would be interesting to see how it went using exhaust pulses which would be stronger than the crank case although I would have thought that would have had plenty of pulse to it. My roid exhales plenty hard through the breather just rolling it over by hand on the flywheel.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 21, 2018, 05:56:53 PM
All these fuel diaphram pumps are vacuum pulse driven. You'd have to change the design to run off pressure- the spring would have to be on the opposite side of the diaphram, where presently there are check valves, and the diaphram material would have to be stiffer to allow higher head. 

Didn't sleep much last night so I'm not sure how much progress I can make today.
 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 22, 2018, 12:05:18 AM
I got it working and the flow rate set.  I ended up removing the flow restriction at the intake manifold, back to 3/16 ID brass tube as shown before in this thread.  With 1/16 inch ID at the intake manifold, I was only getting 1 ml/minute.  I kept removing the sleeved tubing one at a time until they were all gone.  My tiny pneumatic solenoid valve is pretty restrictive for water, cuts the flow in half at any giving water level height, but it's free so I'll use it for now.  The long 1/4 OD (RO type) tubing did restrict flow also compared to my prior test with a short loop of larger ID tubing. For a larger than 20 ml/min flow, I'd suggest larger tubing.

I now have water level marks for about 10 and 20 ml/minute flow rates; the float arm is adjustable and I just change that for the desired flow rate.  Photos when it cools down.  It was tedious to keep fiddling and using a 60 ml syringe body for the water supply to see water consumption- timing 2ml drop. 

I'd like to add an inline filter to catch any crud in the water- any suggestions for a small inline fuel filter that won't clog when used for water and water/methanol?






Title: Re: WI
Post by: EdDee on June 22, 2018, 01:32:03 PM
Hi Bruce,

In reply to a previous question, it IS a CS style roid, 12Hp at 1000rpm, now running at 9-10hp at 750rpm...

The inlet manifold is 1 1/2" or so galv pipe, leading to a large truck type air cleaner with little input restriction... 4.5" of water is what it pulls on the pipe, but, my error, that is to the bottom of the float bowl, the water level is about 2" above the bottom, so around 2.5" actual pull.... my apologies!

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 22, 2018, 03:20:03 PM
Thanks, Ed.  That's consistent with my measurements given your increased RPM. You were right on the mark with adjusting water level to achieve the desired flow rate, thank you.

I'm not thrilled with the float valve I'm using.  Instead of a sharp cutoff I get dribbling, then dripping, with half an inch of rise in water level beyond dribbling to a full shut off.  About 3/4" difference total between initial and later running water level.  That's more variation than I want as it represents a doubling in flow rate.  Not a show stopper, but annoying.  I'm going look into it further.  For now I'll adjust so it starts at 25 ml/min and tapers down to 15.











Title: Re: WI
Post by: EdDee on June 22, 2018, 05:10:12 PM
Hey Bruce...

Dont stress re the dribble... thats a progressive thing with the float valve scenario...

Run it, see where it averages and set level accordingly....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 22, 2018, 05:32:25 PM
Thanks Ed.  I am going to add an overflow pipe to the float tank- so that float valve failure doesn't flood the floor and intake manifold. 

It's right on the wall, so a 1/2" tube through the wall is a snap.

I've written to tech support at CDI- they have bought up all the float valve companies in the US so hopefully can make a good suggestion as to what might work best for my low pressure feed, low flow rate application. 

The consolidation of small companies in the US is alarming.  I've seen this in electronics as well-  6 good filter companies all bought out by the same company, product lines slashed, prices more than doubled with lead times of 4 months, no stocking of the formerly stocked products.  The purchasing company is awful, no decent engineers, no good tech support, a bunch of bullshit artists.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: dieselspanner on June 22, 2018, 05:56:02 PM
Another idea occurred whilst plodding around the lanes on me old tractor this afternoon..........

Most of you guys are running 'Roids, presumably with taper roller bearings and no oil pump. how's about mounting a small piston pump to drive the WI in the same spot?

Given how little power it would take running one off the exhuast or inlet cam follower might be a goer too..........

Cheers
Stef
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 22, 2018, 11:15:39 PM
Here's my gravity fed, float valve/tank - intake manifold vacuum water injection setup.  My next step is a software update for 10 minute delay after running to allow for warm up, and turning it off whenever when no-load or shutdown condition is detected. I also have to add a  Mosfet to my interface board  for the solenoid valve control, and run wire to and properly mount the solenoid valve.
 
https://youtu.be/Y-91-CblrMk
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 23, 2018, 11:36:19 PM
A question for our more experienced WI users:

My Listeroid 6/1 engine is automatically shut down when running with no load for more than 10 minutes. Would it be a better or worse to do WI during no load time.  Either way is just as easy.  I note that at 20 ml/min WI there is no noticeable change in running at cold idle in 9OF temperatures. 

The next is- should I wait for a 10 minute warm up (winter AM starts at 15F) or just turn on the water after starting.  Again, either is just as easy, the question is what's best.  Normal run times are about 1-1.5 hrs, with occasional 3-4 hour runs (woodworking or pneumatic string trimmer). 



Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 24, 2018, 12:20:23 AM

If you are injecting an amount that makes no difference to the engine when it is unladen, then it is not worse.  I would not say it's as good as injecting while the thing is loaded, it's simply not going to hurt anything.
I have done lots of engines on vehicles where I just held the revs you and poured water down the intake. It will clean them out and certainly does not hurt them even though they aren't under load.
It won't so anything detrimental if it's still watering at idle as long as the injection rate is low enough not to make it stutter which it is way below.


With the warm up, I don't believe injecting cold is a bad thing although I just try to stay off the water till the engine does have a bit of heat.
The main thing I think of is water getting past the rings and into the sump where the oil is not hot enough to evaporate it.  With the amount of water you are injecting, I would say the risk of that in not worth worrying about in the slightest.

The water will cool the engine so it's probably better practice to wait till it does have a bit of heat in it.

I think the water would phase change under the compression and heat of combustion just the same, It might just try to re condense in the ports or exhaust of a cold engine though.
At the end of the day, you don't really need to inject cold. If you are going to be watering the beast all the rest of the time, not like the first 10 Min will make any difference.

Myself, I'd defer it till the engine had some heat because I think that would be on the safer side and certainly won't do any harm.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2018, 02:17:48 AM
Thanks, Glort.  I'll wait for 10 minutes before turning on WI, and will only turn it off just before shut down.

Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 24, 2018, 04:44:18 PM
One more question:
My well water is moderately hard (magnesium, calcium) but very good quality drinking water. Is that going to be acceptable for WI? 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 25, 2018, 12:46:03 AM

Never had to worry about that myself but the question I'd ask is does it leave behind residue when it's evaporated?

I took my Harley to the Country for my Cousins Wedding years ago. Washed it when I got there and before I could dry it off, had more white blotches on it from the bore water than when I started. I think that water was very hard. you could scratch off the residue into a powder.
Lucky I had also taken a drum of water from home with me in case the car over heated so I washed it again, rinsed with the drum water and it was fine.

If the bore water is like this and leaves residue I'd keep a very close eye on it.  WMO and veg will leave residue when they are burned but we can get away with it. I assume the ash is exhausted. How anything else would go I don't know.  I don't think the minerals would burn off so well and may accumulate.
I think it would really depend on the evap test. If an amount of water evaporation leaves the minerals behind, that may require caution.  If not, then I'd say it's fine.

Do you have rain water tanks? If so, I'd probably defer to that if the bore water is high in minerals. 
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 25, 2018, 01:11:33 AM
Thanks, Glort.

There is a white deposit in the teakettle after some months- it's moderately hard water.  I will probably run it for a while then pull the head and check things out visually. If the water flashes to steam I'm hopeful the minerals will be blown out with the exhaust.

Collecting rain water isn't very satisfying here.  We used to get 15 inches a year but now it's less. The bulk is in August thunderstorms (deluge).  We can go 6 months without measurable rain. I do have gutters so it's possible...but bugs are drawn to water like crazy here since it's so damn dry.  Single digit humidity and around 95F with winds all the last month. 

I'm just debugging the software update now- it didn't turn on the WI solenoid as it should have in 10 minutes with a load.  No signal at the processor pin so clearly a software goof. Shoot the software guy.





Title: Re: WI
Post by: glort on June 25, 2018, 01:48:13 AM


  I will probably run it for a while then pull the head and check things out visually. 

That would be Ideal. This is one of those questions where you need a definitive not a safe answer but there are a lot of variable and probably little knowledge on it. All the WI makers say use distilled water but they also say you need a 5000PSI pump to turn the water into vapor before you can inject it which is one of many of their self interested myths.

If you can check whats happening after a while you will know for sure one way or the other.


Quote
Collecting rain water isn't very satisfying here.  We used to get 15 inches a year but now it's less. The bulk is in August thunderstorms (deluge).  We can go 6 months without measurable rain.

Much like this year has been here. 3 years ago the place was nearly washed away literally. My neighbour was saying how there were several occasions where they couldn't get to town any way for 3 days or more at a time. Water would recede, go in and get supplies then there would be another downpour and the town was cut off again. The town itself wasn't in a good way either. Very hard to believe now. It's SO dry and barren around the place.

We are supposed to get over 800mm year. had a few almost decent showers the last month but we are still under 200mm for the financial year.
My neighbour isn't fooled. He's bee doing quite a bit of drainage work around his home. He keeps saying when it comes, it's going to come in torrents.
Past history would support that Idea as would his 13 years in the area.

I have 10K litres of water storage and am putting in more. Just using some IBC tanks in out of the way places near the side of the house where there are convenient down pipes. I have put in another 2000 so far and another 2000 to hook up. Sounds a lot but it does not go far.

Do you get fog where you are Bruce?
I have seen a couple of YT vids where these do gooder groups set up shade cloth for people who live in certain areas where it's dry as but they get fog. The fog blows through the nets, condenses and drips into troughs that take it to tanks.  Absoloutley brilliant. Another of these things that has transformed an area from people scratching to survive to virtual wealth. These people can now plant crops and sell the water they now have loads of to other surrounding towns.

There is not enough fog here to do anything with but if I could figure out how to harvest the frost we have been getting, maybe I could top up my tanks!  :0)

One thing that may work for you in producing soft water would be a Solar still. If you could put the bore water in one container and catch the distilled water in another, that may be a way you could refine the water you have at virtually no cost.  You can get a good amount of water out of those things especially when you have water to put in there to start.
Title: Re: WI
Post by: BruceM on June 25, 2018, 04:25:18 AM
No fog here.  I could do a solar still but that's more work than it's worth for WI.

I found the WI software update problem-  there was none, I had forgotten that I had pulled down that output pin to ground since it was previously an unused input.  The new hardware and software is working fine now.  I went with a 7 minute with load warm up, and water off when there is no load.