Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: saba on May 28, 2018, 08:09:32 AM
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Maybe somebody knows wich liner to put in a standard lister block. By now i have a few blocks that could do with a new inner part. I have searched the forum but i cannot find the real pointer.
Ithink it is cheaper to go to a machine shop with a few liners under my arm then let him search for the good match.
Regards bernhard
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Hey Bernhard, I`m in the same boat requiring a cylinder sleeving. There are two types of sleeve (wet and dry) the dry ones have a wall thickness of around 3mm and are pressed into place, with an interference fit of around 3 thou, before being machined top and bottom. Wet sleeves have a much thicker wall and involve machining the barrel out through to the water jacket. The sleeve is pressed into place and has o rings to maintain a water tight seal top and bottom. I believe that quite a lot of Indian clone engines now come with a wet liner which is relatively easy to replace.
You might want to check out Dieselspanner who did a very good restoration recently and showed a picture of a dry sleeve.
Good luck, keep us posted,
Bob
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Hi Bernard, Hi Bob
I had this same conversation with a very good local machine shop last year
FWIW this was the conclusion:
There are plenty of liners around and they're cheap - maybe $100? They can bore your barrel to size and press in a new liner and trim the top and bottom etc. Then, if you have a piston - or dimensions of the one you want to use - they will use their experience to decide on a clearance and machine the liner internally (bore it) to make it circular and of the right size
This is where it gets potentially trickier. Original Listers have a really clever, chrome-coated bore designed to hold a film of oil and resist wear - that "hard" bore is designed to work in combination with "soft" piston rings - I think I have that right and others, more knowledgeable, will correct me if I dont
Your new bore will be of "soft" cast iron and will require "hard" (perhaps chromed?) piston rings - and that may require machining work to the piston - depending on what is available?
That is my understanding
So a "rebore" is only half the question, I believe
"do your homework" is probably the advice
FWIW the finished job of re-sleeving, trimming and boring to suit a piston dimension and then "facing" the barrel square top and bottom was $390
I just bought new, Indian, barrel for the same price
Cheers, Mike
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Hey guys, I concur. I can buy a whole new cylinder casting for about one third of the price of repairing the original. There are different qualities of replacements available, as far as I know, no one is supplying a chrome plated cylinder block to the original specification. If anyone knows otherwise please let us know.
Bob
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Thanks for the replies, I was hoping somebody could point me to "cheapliners.com" page 3 thats the one you need.
A few years ago a machine shop did a job for me on a perkins 4 cil. I think it was around $450 for 4 new dry liners in the block, the liners came with the overhaul kit.
Some time ago i bought two blocks in india but the quality was so bad that I took them of again.One was seeping coolant from casting faults under the paint and the otherone just had a small casting fault in the liner surface I never even bother to use it.
So I have to do something with the original ones I have.
regards Bernhard.
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https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/home.php
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You are over thinking it. ;) Any shop that has the capibilities to bore and install sleeves knows what where and how to aquire the correct one for your application and most ( I wont) intall one unless I supply it. Has nothing to due with profit, has everything to due with who is going to eat the cost if issues crop up. You do NOT want to bore a non wet sleeve block for an India wet sleeve. You want a dry one. I use 3/32 wall sleeves made the two best in the buisiness. The material is superior to the OEM cast iron . The bore is finished after installation to Lister specs so you drop in a standard piston with rings for cast iron bore and that's it. If the shop know's thier stuff they will leave a ridge in the bottom of the bore, that way it is held from moving both by the press fit and by being captive by the head gasket and the ridge in the bottom.
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also:
https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-type-Cylinder.html
I bought an Indian head for my Cs a while back. seems to run just like a OE one. I would consider an Indian cylinder
Cheers
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Thanks for the replies, I contacted the machine shop some weeks back and they are to busy at the moment. For them this is something to do in a spare hour.
I will ask him and will feed back the result to here, might take a while .
About the cilinder of stationairy eng parts, maybe they have better control over the quality of the parts they reseave. I ordered a buch of parts directly from india most was ok but the cilinderblock I used first after mounting and running the engine I found out the coolingwater side cover was made of cheap putty and steel,of course the putty fell out after 10 minutes could put my finger in the hole, but easy to replace with original cover. then after a few running hours the block started seeping cooling water from multiple places from the cast from under the paint. Come on...
Probebly I was just unluckey.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Bernhard
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There are a lot of reject castings that make their way out if India no matter who you buy them from. What does make a difference is who will do something about it after the sale.
One of the posters had mentioned India blocks with chrome bores. Yes indeed their are chromed bore non-sleeved 7 stud blocks made in India. The parts kits I have in stock have them. To tell you the truth with today's ring materials and lubricants I think Id rather just have cast iron and no thave to deal with the idiosyncrasies of chrome bores.
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Saba
You do not say where you live in your profile but if you live in the UK.
Westwood cylinder liners might have just what you need.
Part No. Inside Diameter Outside Diameter Length
MM Inch MM Inch MM Inch
WCL 40F 114.30 4.500 120.73 4.753 250.83 9.875
https://www.westwoodcylinderliners.co.uk/products/browse-by-size/
Mick
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I agree with 38ac, The Listard chrome was effective when originally used, nowadays with improvements in metallurgy and lubrication a steel or cast iron bore with hard rings should be reliable and have good longevity.
Which brings us back to the question of which oil to use and should it be filtered?
Bob
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Interesting.
I'm behind the eight-ball tech-wise on this . . .
So is the thinking that a "soft" iron bore, with the correct "hard" steel rings matched to it, will give good longevity?
(Bearing in mind - as has been discussed to death - that oil and filtration is much much better than 60 years ago)
And, not to re-ignite the debate but, with a "rebuilt" engine would you think of using a modern detergent and filtering those suspended particles? Or an older-style oil like that Morris stuff and allowing particles to sink
(I guess the big-end and mains are still 60 years old . . . .
Cheers
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Hey Mike, There has been endless debate about which oil to use in slow speed diesel engines. I cannot see that adding a filter will do any harm and may do some good as long as it does not clog up and cause oil starvation. Some oil filter housings have a bypass valve to prevent this from happening.
I think a much greater cause of wear in any engine is cold starting when the lubricant is thick and does not flow easily. The huge mass of a Lister/Listeroid engine requires a long time to reach full operating temperature and condensation in the crankcase can also be a problem. I have wondered about building some sort of oil heater but it`s probably more trouble than it`s worth.
Bob
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Yep, as far as I can tell the oil in the sump of my old CS was an emulsion of tar, rainwater and diesel - it didn't seem to mind :)
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Hello listeroil, thanks for the pointer. I am dutch.
I work abroad so for the coming weeks there's not gonna be much action from my side, but when i'm home i will visit the machine shop with a cilinder block and ask his opinion. The perkins he did for me he later machined the inside to spec. I will hear what the guy has to say, for them it's just some extra pocket money there normal job is biogas engines, combined heat and power engines.
Here at my job I have equipment that i could give it a try myself but taking a cilinder block in my suitcase is not an option.
Maybee he will give me pointers of what size to order or he will get them himself we shall see.
If I would live nearby I would bring them to mister 38ac was it only to have look at his shop.
Thanks for the input
Bernhard
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Just looked again at westwood liners, there's a 1mm finish left so that must be the one.....
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The bore size listed is not what you will have after it is pressed in a block! It is a size that you can expect it will finish finish if properly installed. NO matter how round or what size a thin wall dry liner is when you purchase it it will be neither one after it is pressed in. The actual process is you measure the sleeve O.D. in four spots, average the measurements and bore the block several thousands smaller depending on bore size. Because I do a few of them I have a fixture for the CS. After boring the block on the HBM I move the table back and press the sleeve in the block with a 25 ton porta power. Next the top is trimmed and a light deck cut is made on the same machine. Then the sleeve is bored .010 under size and then honed to size.
Here is a couple videos taken before I made up my block jig. The HBM was built in 1939 and is true within .0002 length of the bed, amazing.
Boring a CS block on the #25 Giddings Lewis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M6cVL-M5Gs
Facing a CS head on same machine https://youtu.be/bV1EGJ43YB4
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To 38ac,
Thats a machine.....you can bore tunnels with that.
impressive.
Bernhard
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Wow, what a sweet machine, can`t tell you how much I want one of those.
Bob
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Even Lister's themselves tired of the Chromard process towards the end of Lister CS production, as the later engines which have the modified cylinder block [the crankcase end has a lot less material in the casting, and the 3/4" BSW studs are completely exposed at the crankcase end] are un-plated in the cylinder bore.
It used to be possible [no more] to get finished to size chrome plated dry press liners from here: http://www.laystall.co.uk/cyl-products.php
But you can still get an Indian approximation if you know where to look, and indeed it is the case that some of the Indian manufacturers who don't have the chrome plating ability, buy these liners and press fit them to their own cylinder blocks.
See here for an example of what I mean: https://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Lister-CS-type-Cylinder.html
Did a bit of dry liner installation work myself back in the day, I used to leave an extra 0.001" in the bore, then with a cylinder bore hone we used to knock the high spots off, left by the Van Norman 777 boring bar. This made liner installation so much easier and with a lot less distortion.
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http://realdiesels.co.uk
http://www.sleeman-hawken.co.uk/suppliers/lister-petter.html
Both these companies have obsolete and hard to find parts for old engines. real diesels have the lower postage rates!
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A small update on the matter, I got a quote from westwood liners, 38 pounds for a liner. Without tax and postage.
I found another workshop in the nabourhood they charge 60 euro's for boring 10 for pressing it in and another 60 for the finish.He could not give me a price for the liner but he mentioned it would not be breathtaking. So thats 130 euro without tax for the work. Not bad I think. I will think about it I have at least three that are maxed out on size if you add it up it still some money....
If I go ahead I will post the results,
Bernhard