Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: listeroidsusa on July 29, 2006, 01:41:48 AM

Title: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: listeroidsusa on July 29, 2006, 01:41:48 AM
Instead of filtering the oil I built a prototype rig to re-refine it. Lister says to use only distillate fuel, which this is. This process removes the soot, dirt, water, and other impurities. It gives a return of approximately 50% useable fuel oil. The process is basically the same as used by the original refinery. I use an old propane tank for the dirty supply oil, which is equipped with heating elemints to heat the oil to approximately 300 F. I pull a slight vacuum to eliminate the air and combustion hazzard. Another tank is beside it and this tank has a high vacuum. As you know, water will boil at room temperature if the vacuum is low enough. The same goes for the oil. The hot dirty oil is let into the vacuum tank with a small valve, and the oil is allowed to vaporize. I use pound cake pans to collect the distilled oil. These pans have a central hole for the vapor to pass through and I cut a small hole in the bottom of one side for the condensed oil to drain into a pipe fitting connected to the outside and then to a collection tank. Both the distillation column and the collecting tank are under vacuum. The temperature used determines the weight of the oil collected. Successively higher temperatures collect heavier oil. Once all of the useable fuel oil is collected the bottom oil is drawn off and taken to a used oil collection point or given to a local asphalt plant.

The lighter fractions can be burned as is while the heavier constituents make a very good diesel fuel extender.

Mike
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: mobile_bob on July 29, 2006, 02:31:21 AM
very cool indeed

would like to see pix of your setup

bob g
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on July 29, 2006, 07:21:43 AM
Mike,

I have a stockpile of used transmission fluid and although it burns great undiluted in my VW diesel with filtering to 2 microns and heated to reduce viscosity, the injectors coke up within a half hour.  I am certain that the cause of this is the fine particulates from bands and clutches that remain in suspension in the oil.  I would like to use this oil as generator fuel and had actually been thinking of a small vacuum distillation plant as you have made. I have a brand new 50(?) gallon air compressor receiver that I could use as the boiler. More info and pics would be helpful and appreciated.

Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on July 29, 2006, 04:59:22 PM
I worked in cracking plant Mike and we had to blow off a lot of those light ends your talking about before the oil could move onto the 520 for the big cook. The condensate we got off waste oil smelled like Gasoline, was yellow like snott, very high in water content and associated PH problems carried with the water.

We got a significate amount of viable fuel feed stock from this that we sent to Sarnia to be refined, but our primary goal was the cracking of heay lube oil into #2 fuel. Condensate loading was scary the fumes would shimmer above the truck and everyone was scared about putting on the ground cluster.

Doug
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: listeroidsusa on July 29, 2006, 09:11:22 PM
I haven't noticed any gasoline smell, but then I've been running used diesel oil that probably has a lot of #2 in it already from oil dilution. I take care not to have excess water in the oil. My brother runs a garage and we are careful not to contaminate the oil with antifreeze, gear lube, water, or any other material.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on July 29, 2006, 09:46:26 PM
I wonder if it would be possible and practical to develop a tiny vacuum still that basically made from 1 to 4 times enough fuel in real time for my VW genset?  The beast is making exhaust and coolant heat which might be used to preheat the raw WMO/WTF, then it has a vacuum pump on it now with the suction port capped off (was used in the car for power brakes).  The small amount of high heat needed in the still tower could come from a modest electric heating element run from some of the plant's electricity output.

You would need a system isolation valve at the output side of the still to let processed oil, maybe a gallon each cycle out and into a small vacuum tank that would then be isolated and let back to atmoshphere so as to become available to the engine.  Excess production could be accumulated in another tank and put somewhere in new oil storage.

At first the controlling functions sound like the need for constant operator attention but if the control sequence could be automated with solenoid valves and electrical timers it might be practical.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: GuyFawkes on July 29, 2006, 11:24:01 PM
we always burnt old engine oil as fuel, filter it gravity wise through fullers earth, then mix 50/50 with diesel, never had a problem.

Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on July 30, 2006, 02:23:27 AM
That fullers earth will also do a fine job on the dye used in many coloured fuels, at least on my side of the pond.

Mike I don't know much about the process your trying, but I do remember about 15 % of the oil by volume into the pots came out as condensate and that was a 50:50 split water and light ends. As the process continued we ended up with a firther 10% tar in the product that had to be spun out in a centrifuge and we used Hydrazine to help knock ou the tar. This still posed tar problems in Di engines but it made for wonderful burner fuel. I burned the stuff in my service truck, fuel ecconomy was better but I had filter problems. We were also left with about 5% ash cake ( mostly coke minerals and heavy metal that went to land fill ).
This was low presure cracking in the 520 at high temp ( I believe we went as high as 500f depending on feed stock ). But I don't remeber much light ends flashing off even at these temperatures. Most of the condensate came off in the 310 and as I stated before this was a cracking opperation not a distailation plant so the actual chemestry and process was different from what you are trying to do.

Side note the floor of the 520 was 1 inch thick 316 ss, we warped and burned it out more than once with synthetic oils. The other joke was " man alive, there are men alive in there trying to fix it...."

Doug

Doug
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on July 31, 2006, 02:42:37 AM
we always burnt old engine oil as fuel, filter it gravity wise through fullers earth, then mix 50/50 with diesel, never had a problem.



I had to look up Fuller's Earth to learn what it is.  I wonder where I can purchase it.  One factoid I picked up was that kitty litter often contains Fuller's Earth.  Since I have cat litter here for my kitties I plan to try and let some WTF run through some in a sieve pan and see what comes out.  Thanx for the tip!
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: kyradawg on July 31, 2006, 04:26:31 AM

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on July 31, 2006, 04:44:25 AM
"I plan to try and let some - WTF - run through some in a sieve pan and see what comes out."

Well what the fuck do you think is gonna come out? LOL (WTF)

Peace&Love :D, Darren

That joke is pretty hard to resist!

You're not an agent with the BATF are you?  In the US the federal government has a bureau that takes Automatic Transmission Fluid very seriously!  They even carry guns and have the power to arrest dipsticks.   ;D
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: hotater on August 08, 2006, 01:21:23 AM
Fuller's Earth is a very fine dietematious (woo-ee, I bet that's wrong!) earth and is named after "Fullers" that made and dyed cloth.

About 99% of a sack of 'oil dry' is Fuller's earth.  Kitty litter has wood chips and perfume and anti dust stuff in it too.

Red wine filtered through Fuller's earth comes out pale pink.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on August 08, 2006, 05:49:46 AM
Fuller's Earth is a very fine dietematious (woo-ee, I bet that's wrong!) earth and is named after "Fullers" that made and dyed cloth.

About 99% of a sack of 'oil dry' is Fuller's earth.  Kitty litter has wood chips and perfume and anti dust stuff in it too.

Red wine filtered through Fuller's earth comes out pale pink.

I buy the unscented, dry clay cheap brand litter.  No parfum and I don't see any wood chips.

What does red wine taste like after filtering through kitty litter? :D  Some experiments are best left untried.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: pigseye on August 08, 2006, 04:07:53 PM
Will fullers earth remove water from waste motor oil?

Thanks
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: GuyFawkes on August 08, 2006, 04:26:47 PM
Will fullers earth remove water from waste motor oil?

Thanks

yes, but it is a "bad" way to do it, it is a lot faster / easier / cheaper to use a filter or evaporate it off.

if you have good thermal insulation, evaporating it off at 110 celcuis can be very economical, and it is about as simple as a thing can be made.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: pigseye on August 10, 2006, 01:09:16 AM
Hi guy,
A few more questions regarding fullers earth and WMO.

How long would the fuller earth last as a filter?  I'm wondering how many gallons of WMO I could effectively filter with 25 lbs of FE.  I understand that the most accurate answer to this question would be "it depends" since I cannot provide an accurate description of the oil I will be filtering. 

But in your experience, how long would it last for you?  What were the conditions of the oil that you filtered?

How can you tell when the FE is no longer effectively filtering?

How do you dispose of FE that has had it's filtering properties exhausted?

Thanks,
Pigseye
Thanks
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: GuyFawkes on August 10, 2006, 01:56:26 AM
1. don't know, never bother to time it.

2. don't know, never bothered to measure it.

(we'd just grab a 32lb bag as / when / if needed.)

3. with oil flow basically stops and the FE is sludge itself

4. old quarry type landfills used for all the nasty shit

Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rcavictim on August 10, 2006, 02:53:37 AM
Perhaps the saturated Fuller's Earth could be sterilized in a burning barrel with agitation/stirring until the outgassing no longer supported combustion and then what's left safely put in land fill.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Tom on August 10, 2006, 04:02:20 AM
If FE is the same thing as diatomaceous earth it is common and cheap at pool supply stores. I used to use it for our pool filter.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: getterdone on February 25, 2007, 07:18:36 PM
has any one built a centerfuse for cleaning oil? i'd like to build one. pictures speak a thousand words. every one has some used crankcase oil to get rid of. i'd like to run it in my 6/1 lister for power. can any one help us with this? do we need to mix it with bio, veggy oil? i figure that we would have to heat the injecter line. i'd like to see some pictures of how you all are heating injecter lines . i know you can heat them by electric, or by heat from the cooling system. i've ordered an electric element but have'nt got it yet.  thank's to you all that respond.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Tom on February 26, 2007, 01:12:35 AM
You know, I was admiring my wife's new juicer and it looks like it would make a great centrifuge. The juice goes through a strainer and the debris gets flung in to a hopper. She won't let me try it on WMO though.  :-[
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: CD in BC on January 11, 2008, 06:55:04 PM
Exactly how was the filtering with Fuller's Earth done?  I mean the hardware side of it.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: blhfla on January 16, 2008, 07:07:09 AM
has any one built a centerfuse for cleaning oil? i'd like to build one. pictures speak a thousand words. every one has some used crankcase oil to get rid of. i'd like to run it in my 6/1 lister for power. can any one help us with this? do we need to mix it with bio, veggy oil? i figure that we would have to heat the injecter line. i'd like to see some pictures of how you all are heating injecter lines . i know you can heat them by electric, or by heat from the cooling system. i've ordered an electric element but have'nt got it yet.  thank's to you all that respond.


I am working with a resourceful local machinist to construct a prototype 1300G centrifuge that is compact, efficient, durable and inexpensive (under $200) to process WVO for my VW TDI. It should do WMO just fine. Would anybody be interested in purchasing if it can be made for less than $200? If there is enough interest he will do a limited production run.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: JohnF13 on January 16, 2008, 11:03:45 AM
I'd be interested in that, any idea of the throughput - gallons/hr?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: captfred on January 16, 2008, 11:26:25 AM
What's wrong with the readily available Dieselcraft Centrifuge? Runs between 3 and 4 litres per minute  (about 1 us gal) @ 90 psi.

(http://www.dieselcraft.com/OC20%20with%20valve0708_small.jpg)

Fred
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: spike on January 16, 2008, 08:25:19 PM
I would be really interested in your centrifuge, my carrot jucie has started to taste like SAE 15W-40 ;D

Tim













Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 16, 2008, 08:45:50 PM
Want to change everything?

Find a suplier if Zeolite for use as a catalyst and build your own cracking plant.

I've seen it done without the catalyst and although it works it requires a lot more heat and produces a lot of tar. The right catalyst and burning the light ends to drive the process might be possible on a small scale.

Actualy cracking oil is done at the high school chemstry level with even cheaper catalyst. If a high school student can do it.....
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 17, 2008, 12:59:07 AM
No I realy don't know much about the subject.....

My niece is studying chemistry in University, maybe she can smarten me up. I know the process involves Flash heating oil to 1200 to 1400 F and running it threw crushed pumice cracking bed. This will quickly coke and tar things up so the Pumice will have to be burned out to clean it.

Tars are soluable in the in the fuel produced but at a different density so they could be centrafuged ( this is messy and part of the process I did inthe 90's ) 
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: mobile_bob on January 17, 2008, 01:57:29 AM
a thought

filter the oil with a screen to get the rocks, feathers and frenchfries out

cut it with diesel to thin it a bit

filter it again to 5 microns or maybe then to 2 microns

then run it thru activated charcoal to get the extremely fine particles out?
i watched a history channel show the other night, modern marvels or whatever
they were showing how activated charcoal takes the color out of some sort of alcohol or solvent that was blue
now if it can take the blue out, perhaps it can take the black out of oil?

there are many grades of activated charcoal available, finding the right grade might be a trial and error proposition
but i wonder if it might just work.

many years ago i watched a program on how they get diamonds seperated from the dirt and gravel after the rock was crushed
they slurry the crushed with water and run it over a board trough that is heavily coated in grease.
the diamonds being carbon will stick in the grease and everything else does not, water and sand just wash right over

the point being carbon sticks to wet grease, the black in waste oil is carbon
now we can't run oil over grease without it dissolving the grease, but
oil doesn't as far as i know dissolve activated carbon, so perhaps the sub micron carbon in the oil might adhere
and be caught in the activated charcoal just as the blue color did in the history channel program.

personally i think it might be worth checking into and running some small scale testing
the waste or spent activated charcoal should be able to be used to burn for heat i would think as a means of disposal

so maybe a multistep
and use the fullers earth as one of the steps as well

a final pass through a luberfiner 750 filter would then polish the stock to high enough quality to be used as a fuel
and my thinking is it would probably be cleaner than what one gets at the average pump on most days.

bob g
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 17, 2008, 02:38:45 AM
Zeolite and or pumice will grab the carbone Bob thats the reason the Catalyst needs to be burned off.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: draganof on January 17, 2008, 02:40:05 AM
I have some Katadyn survival water filters that will filter out all the germs that will be in mud puddles your drinking from during the end of the world saga. The filter is ceramic and the pore size is .2 microns. Wonder if you could use this filter and a hydraulic pump to filter out some of the carbon? You would not be able to use standard oil pumps. It would take 1000-3000 psi to get it through the filter. the biggest drawback I see to these filters would be the price of replacements. Might be cost prohibitive.

John
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rf on January 21, 2008, 05:43:11 AM
Finished my centrifuge last week, don't know if anyones interested but heres the details and pictures can be found here for download.  ( http://www.badongo.com/file/7258700 )
Regards
RF
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rf on January 21, 2008, 06:48:05 AM
I don't get it, Badongo is a free file hosting site. I just tested it and it downloaded the file with no problems. I can uplaod it to a new host of your choice if you like.
I tried sending it direct to your email but the file was returned as too big for your mail box :(

Regards
RF
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 21, 2008, 12:01:25 PM
So far, nothing :( A nice blend looking like a (milky) chocolate shake.
Jens

What does it taste like?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rl71459 on January 21, 2008, 12:52:19 PM
Hi RF

I tried to view the centrifuge also.... That site (badongo) does not seem to work for me either.
If you post it somewhere else please let me know, as I would like to see it also.

Thank You
Rob
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rl71459 on January 21, 2008, 01:03:23 PM
btw.... I did register, and still did not get to see the centrifuge. ???

Rob
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 21, 2008, 03:11:00 PM
So far, nothing :( A nice blend looking like a (milky) chocolate shake.
Jens

What does it taste like?

Send me your snail mail address and I can send you a sample to try out. BTW, things don't look much better this morning :(

Jens

Great I can hardly wait.

I have some milky stuff that has been sitting for several months. I imagine the more it is mixed, the longer it will take water to come out of suspension. I am not a chemist, but it doesn't seem to me much of anything is going to make it settle any faster then nature. I imagine the easiest and fastest would be heating it and evaporation. I don't think 1200 degrees would be necessary. It would probably evaporate before it got that hot. Does anybody know what temperature oil boils at?

As for the different oils, they may not come out of suspension for a very long time if ever.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 21, 2008, 03:40:27 PM
Lube oil won't boil at atmospheric presures they coke and smoke....

Because of all the additives in motor oil it will try and keep water in suspension locked up as a way to protect the engine. Get the oil above the boiling point of water and most of this will come out.

As I recall at cracking plant we could get as much as 10% water in our condensate in winter because the oil often wouldn't get hot enough in the engines to flash off all that water. Not to say the oil was 10 % water some water was mixed in from anti freeze spills and water that could get mixed in from all kinds of other places after it was drained from engines. And the condensate was only a fraction of light ends that boiled out there would also be varsol, fule oil and gasoline all mixed up into a slimy yellow snot that smelled like stale gas 

Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rl71459 on January 21, 2008, 04:14:16 PM
Hi Cognos

Thank You very much for the detailed information. I (as well as others) appreciate the addition time it took to provide the in depth explanation of the process's required to do this correctly.

Thank You
Rob
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 21, 2008, 09:52:24 PM
Had a quick look at the salt-cracking information on that site... without posting the actual chemical reactions that they state are occurring (and must be, in order for transesterification to take place), I can't really comment on whether it works, but I can tell you this much:

In a refinery setting,

1. A lot of effort is taken to remove salt from crude stocks before any sort of refining takes place. One reason is that salt stabilizes emulsions!

2. A lot of care is taken, through equipment design, NOT to add shear to an oil/water mix in order to avoid forming stable emulsions.

It may be that with this "salt-cracking" process, you will end up with a very pure, dry, vegetable oil, but I'd like to see the chemistry... Salt is a poor catalyst, and the accusorb beads are more likely simple anion/cation silica gel beads being used here as a drying agent, nothing new about that. So what's really happening? So, I'm a little sceptical.

Part 2 of this is, if the process is so efficient and widely known, why isn't it being used commercially? 

Providing it actually works. That has a pretty fancy price there.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: mike90045 on January 25, 2008, 06:26:16 AM
Just a quick follow-up ....

My cocktail of oils,water, fuel and salt shows no sign of separating. 

Try adding a SMALL (5%) amount of water, and gently agitate.  That may kick it off.  And warm it up to at least 60F, that may help too.  Even heating to 100F may work




Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: captfred on January 25, 2008, 11:03:38 PM
Anyone centrifuge this stuff?

Getting some really nasty sticky S@%t stuck in the rotor, real pain to clean it out.  Any thoughts on what this residue is composed of?


Fred

Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 25, 2008, 11:10:14 PM
Technical term is crud, sometimes called goo.....

It's water and suspended solids and oxydised stuff that will clump and settle over time as well
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on January 25, 2008, 08:10:34 PM
A fellow who would apear to know more about oil refining and cracking and myself have cast some doubt on the salt thing.

Let me add a thought....
We burned a hell of a lot of fuel oil ( of our own making ) to heat the pots so we could crack heay lube oil into lighter fuel. If salt did anything good then the smarter people than me who ordered the drums of realy scary chemicals would have ordered salt instead.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 29, 2008, 06:19:56 PM
I use a dieselcraft centrifuge. Works great. The dirtier the oil the more often you have to clean out the gunk, but no filters to buy and ti does get the wattery goo out. just catch it in a cup when you shut it down.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: dieseldave on January 30, 2008, 03:18:44 AM

    Dieselcraft Centrifuge?  ???    Where can I get one and how much$$$$.  ::)  I live in Edmonton Alberta. ;D
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 30, 2008, 06:06:09 AM
I use a dieselcraft centrifuge. Works great. The dirtier the oil the more often you have to clean out the gunk, but no filters to buy and ti does get the wattery goo out. just catch it in a cup when you shut it down.

Do you heat your feed stock ? What temperature ?
I was thinking it would be nice to just have a pump and one of these centrifuges going more or less continually for a few days on a drum of product but Dieselcraft indicates heating will be required which could potentially add substantial expense (although I have never worked out the exact cost).

Jens

At first I heated the oil to a temperature that I couldn't hold my hand on a pipe in the system. Don't know the exact temp. I installed a 1450 watt 125 volt water heater element in the side of a 15 gallon oil drum by bolting two floor flanges together with a thick rubber gasket under the outside flange. I drilled the holes undersized for a tight fit and used bolts with a non threaded shoulder so when squeezed, there was no leaks. I did this also with the 55 gallon cooling drum and no problem with leaks. http://picasaweb.google.com/rbodell/Projects/photo#5149384968622067474

Despite the 2 GPM flow, I let it run for a couple of hours for the usual 10 gallons I process at a time. I run it on the lister when it is running so there is no cost from the power company.

Lately I have been diluting the oil with diesel before I process it instead of after. I use 3 gallons of diesel to 7 gallons of oil. This thins it out as much or thinner than heating it. After processing it for a couple of hours as I normally do, I cleaned out the diesel craft centrifuge and then heated the oil and processed it again for a couple of hours as normal. So far I have done this with two batches and the second time with heat got no more impurities out. Diluting it with diesel got me the same results as heating it. The only difference was the water I used to add sodium hydroxide with was visible when I cleaned it out as a gray goo. When I heated it the water evaporated because I never saw the water.

The couple of hours I run it is far beyond what is necessary, Running it continuously would be a waste of time. Also you really should be there to watch it while it is processing to clean the diesel craft when it gets full and to keep adjusting the pressure. I have a relief valve, but it often gets gummed up and I do not consider it dependable. If it does not release properly you can damage the diesel craft. There is plenty to do with taking samples, mixing them with water, waiting for the water to settle out and then test the water for acidity with litmus paper and adding a little sodium hydroxide until the acidity is rite.

So far this has worked fine and reduced the power needed to process the wmo by not needing the heating element.


Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 30, 2008, 06:16:32 AM

    Dieselcraft Centrifuge?  ???    Where can I get one and how much$$$$.  ::)  I live in Edmonton Alberta. ;D

http://www.dieselcraft.com/ I think it was something like 200 bucks. You can find distributors through the website. It requires 90 psi @ 2 gpm flow.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 30, 2008, 07:33:33 AM

So far this has worked fine and reduced the power needed to process the wmo by not needing the heating element.


I try to add about 20% gasoline and that thins it out considerably. I hadn't thought about that aspect - good call.

Nice way of adding a port to a drum too !

I didn't realize that the centrifuge needed babying beyond the initial startup when it might get loaded with crap fairly quickly.
What kind of ph levels are you seeing ?  I purchased a garden PH meter and the two samples I tested showed no appreciable acidity so I was considering not to worry about acidity and washing the oil. I guess it also helps that I wouldn't run a final oil percentage lower than maybe 50% for the 'roid or 25% for my truck.

Jens

Are you testing the oil itself or mixing some oil and water together, then letting it settle then testing the water? If you just test the oil, the acidity won't register. I have not found any WMO that wasn't acid so far. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I would be real surprised if it didn't register some acidity.

I just used some litmus paper to test the water.

I mix water and oil in equal portions and shake it real good in a liquid dish soap bottle then let it set upside down for 15 or 20 minutes. Then with as little movement as possible, I open the top on the bottle over a dish and then close ti quickly. It only takes a couple of drops to test. As for percentages of wmo and diesel, that is up to you.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 30, 2008, 03:50:50 PM
Yes, I tested the water after mixing and settling. I would still be curious as to the average ph level (the actual number) that you see. My tests did show acidity but so little that it was likely to matter (6.5 - 6.8).

Jens

the litmus papers I have show a 6.4 to 7.4 as nutral. 2 to 6.3 as Acid and 7.5 to 13 as Base. The nutral range is coparatively small so you shouldn't have anything to worry about. make sure you keep the sensor cleaned of oil as it can affect the readings.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: dpollo on January 31, 2008, 12:46:16 AM
Is it possible that Jens' concoction has all the ingredients of an emulsion so in practical terms, it will never settle out.

I have drained similar goop from  the oil pans of old cars. A mixture of antifreeze, water, cheap motor oil, unburned gasoline  and bearing material. Has the consistency and flavour of a well known restauranteur's chocolate shake.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: biobill on January 31, 2008, 03:11:05 AM
  Maybe a dumb question (not the first) but can dry oil have a ph? I presume you are concerned about corrosion, but as long as water isn't introduced, is it really an issue? My limited understanding is that to be acid/alkaline, you need to be in solution with water and I can certainly understand how mixing water with used motor oil could raise or lower the ph of the water due to contaminants in the oil. But...if the oil's dry and you don't add any water to it, it's not corrosive is it???
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rmchambers on January 31, 2008, 03:40:48 AM
I think it would have the potential to be corrosive.  Probably not while it's in the equipment prior to the injector tip.  Once it's in the engine and combustion takes place, some moisture will be created as a byproduct of combustion.  If some of the acidic material and moisture gets past the rings you can have some corrosion. 
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: aqmxv on January 31, 2008, 08:06:14 PM
  Maybe a dumb question (not the first) but can dry oil have a ph? I presume you are concerned about corrosion, but as long as water isn't introduced, is it really an issue? My limited understanding is that to be acid/alkaline, you need to be in solution with water and I can certainly understand how mixing water with used motor oil could raise or lower the ph of the water due to contaminants in the oil. But...if the oil's dry and you don't add any water to it, it's not corrosive is it???

Technically, no.  Oil with no polar (water-like) solvent in it can't have a pH, because there's no way to have excess hydronium in solution.  However, in the real world, you have to assume that there's something polar around that can cause you grief, like water in the bottom of the drum.  The chemistry way to check for acid/base in a nonpolar solvent (oil, in this case) is to shake up an oil sample/water mix in a seperatory funnel, let it sit and settle (like vinegar/oil salad dressing) , and then draw the water fraction off the bottom for pH testing.  The dishwashing detergent bottle left to settle upside down is a great way to do this on the cheap.

You'll want to test some new motor oil to develop a standard procedure.  New oil should test somewhat alkaline because of the buffers added during manufacture.  If the WMO was changed promptly, it should  be alkaline as well.  Oil that was not changed in a timely manner goes acidic (especially in a gasoline engine that ran cold).  Acidic oil combined with water vapor made during the combustion process in the engine results in an acid bath for internal engine parts...which is why we change the oil in the first place.

If I had some oil that tested alkaline and some other oil that tested acid, the first thing I'd do would be to mix the two, heat, and stir a while.  The remaining pH buffer in the alkaline oil might just solve the acidity problem...

Diluting before filtering (centrifugal or exclusion) will definitely help with throughput.  It'll also increase the extraction efficiency of a centrifugal filter.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 31, 2008, 08:59:50 PM


If I had some oil that tested alkaline and some other oil that tested acid, the first thing I'd do would be to mix the two, heat, and stir a while.  The remaining pH buffer in the alkaline oil might just solve the acidity problem...

Diluting before filtering (centrifugal or exclusion) will definitely help with throughput.  It'll also increase the extraction efficiency of a centrifugal filter.


Occasionally I add too much sodium hydroxide. To counter it, rather than add acid, I add a little more oil. Works every time.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on January 31, 2008, 09:04:35 PM
At the local auto parts stoe the guy mentioned a customer that works at the power plant told him they reuse the expensive oil ($1,000 a barrel) in the generators They process it with a system that uses a vaccume. Is anybody familiar with this?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: dieseldave on February 02, 2008, 06:12:51 AM

    Question:  Has anybody done a PH test of New Motor Oil out of the bottle?  If so,what was the PH?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rmchambers on February 02, 2008, 03:56:13 PM
pretty sure it's going to be basic.  They have TBN numbers assigned which is the True Base Number - indicative of their base ph.  This is supposed to counteract the acidic effects of combustion blowby.

RC

One thing I wondered is that do synthetic oils that hold up better in an engine burn as well as regular oil when diluted and sent through a diesel engine?  Anyone tried firing a listeroid or other compression ignition engine on synthetic?
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: draganof on February 02, 2008, 07:01:51 PM
pretty sure it's going to be basic.  They have TBN numbers assigned which is the True Base Number - indicative of their base ph.  This is supposed to counteract the acidic effects of combustion blowby.

RC

One thing I wondered is that do synthetic oils that hold up better in an engine burn as well as regular oil when diluted and sent through a diesel engine?  Anyone tried firing a listeroid or other compression ignition engine on synthetic?

I tried some Mobile One in my Changfa 195 at 100% and got lots of smoke. The engine will burn 100% WMO with no smoke so the 195 doesn't like it. I never did try a blend with diesel.

John
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: Doug on February 02, 2008, 10:34:53 PM
Synthetics will burn at higher temperatures.

They don't ignite well.
Title: Re: Waste Motor Oil Refining
Post by: rbodell on February 05, 2008, 11:36:38 AM
pretty sure it's going to be basic.  They have TBN numbers assigned which is the True Base Number - indicative of their base ph.  This is supposed to counteract the acidic effects of combustion blowby.

RC

One thing I wondered is that do synthetic oils that hold up better in an engine burn as well as regular oil when diluted and sent through a diesel engine?  Anyone tried firing a Listeroid or other compression ignition engine on synthetic?

Although none of my batches have been 100% synthetic, some have been as much as 25% synthetic, 25% regular waste oiland 50% diesel. Couldn't tell any difference in sound, temperature or power.