Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Lister Based Generators => Topic started by: Kilcoy on March 22, 2018, 11:07:59 AM
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Hi everyone,
Have you ever saw one of these? I have a few 6/1 and 8/1 SOM but never saw one of these. Original base and all the serial numbers match. I got the original manuals that came with the engine too!
Best regards,
Malcolm
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Aloha Kilroy,
I think that you have what many of us would rate as a "Score". Very nice indeed.
Casey
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A rare find, lot 1140 bought at auction?
Lister CS twin startomatic sets are rare, and IMHO you have the best CS of the bunch, the CS16/2 engine (fitted with an even rarer exhaust manifold).
Any chance of more photos?
The one thing to watch out for on these twin cylinder startomatic sets is the flywheel key on the drive belt flywheel working loose. It can and does happen on the single cylinder startomatic engines, but on a twin your transmitting twice the power and the key/keyways are no bigger. Additionally one of the flywheels is unique (due to keyway positioning) to the twin cylinder engines.
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Hi all,
I bought it at a farm machinery auction. I could hardly believe it when I saw it and that it was original Lister with the correct engine and alternator numbers on the base plate.
I always wondered if 16/2 self starting units existed. Is this a SOM then?
I was ready to bid big money for it and couldn't believe when the hammer dropped for £450 !!!
I'll get more photos in the next few days.
Mal
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I always wondered if 16/2 self starting units existed. Is this a SOM then?
It should be, but I cannot see the startomatic components that you would expect to see on the engine, these will be on the side closest to the alternator. Lets hope so for your sake they are present, because these parts are unique to the twin cylinder startomatic sets.
I was ready to bid big money for it and couldn't believe when the hammer dropped for £450 !!!
Luck was on your side that day ;)
I'll get more photos in the next few days.
Can't wait.
Having looked at the photos in more detail this engine would have been radiator cooled. The style of water manifolds, and two unused studs (for water pump) on the crankcase and behind the flywheel. Are all indicative features of a radiator cooled engine.
If you PM your email address, I have stored away somewhere some photos of a twin cylinder startomatic set that would show this detail, and hence give you an idea of any parts you be missing. But please be patient as this will take me some time to find.
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Here are a few more photos. If you need anything particular let me know.
I see from the serial number its a radiator cooled model.
I managed to get speaking to the seller just after I bought it. He bought it from the factory where it worked. He never mentioned the radiator but I must ask again.
Mal
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And a few more.....
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/\ You've got mail!
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Radiator mounts above the flywheel on LH side above the pulley. Rubber hoses and a few brackets plus the radiator and its hood with fan assembly should be available from a donor machine. I should have some pictures around of that setup. Good find! Congrats!
dieselgman
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/\ Agreed, here is one right now on ebay uk:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-LISTER-CS-3-5-1-DIESEL-STATIONARY-ENGINE-RESTORATION-PROJECT-BARN-FIND/132511106414
Somewhat pricey, and it doesn't even have the shroud (hood), but you get the idea.
The problem will be obtaining the correct water pump, and this item may as well be made from unobtainium due to its rarity. The good news is that the same item can be found on JP and CE engines.
Here is a link to a bare water pump on ebay UK at present: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LISTER-CD-CE-ENGINE-WATER-PUMP-BODY-good-used-023-05517-/251319190727
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On the 6/1 radiator-cooled design there is not a requirement for water pump... just a belt drive for the cooling fan and thermo-syphon does the rest.
dieselgman
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That's right, and the radiator will fit straight on, however I doubt the radiator would give sufficient cooling when set up for thermo-siphon. Hence why Listers equipped the twin Lister CS raiator cooled versions with a water circulating pump.
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Hi,
Sorry for the late reply, I’ve been really busy here the past few weeks.
Thanks for all the info. I went ahead and bought the water pump housing from ebay although I have not received it yet. Would anyone have a photo of this fitted to the 16/2?
I've attached a photo (hopefully) of a twin with a radiator but don't see the water pump?
Is the rad on a 6/1 the same size as the rad fitted to a 16/2? I have a rough 6/1 with a radiator that I could rob the parts off.
Thanks again for the help and info!
Malcolm
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That setup has no waterpump. Interesting manifolds, I wonder if they are original?
If you're worried about the thermal capacity of a thermosiphoning system, you could put 2 rads on it, 1 per cylinder, and just keep the two water circuits completely separate... that way, you're only cooling 2x 8x1 engines :) Not sure how easy it'd be to fit a fan to the second radiator though...
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I know this is an old post, but I just found it today while searching for info on my gen set.
What a great find !
I have recently acquired a Lister CS 12/2 Gen set with a 7.5kVA (6kW) head. It Dates from 1952 where it was installed in a farm in East Lothian. Serial no 2861022.
It is a remote start unit very similar to this one I think. But the really odd thing is it's only fitted with a Fuel Control Solenoid & an Engine Speed Sensor (microswitch), so there is nothing to operate the Changeover valves & nothing to operate the de-compression levers !
The Changeover valves are different to the normal 3/1 & 5/1 types which are concave - mine are most definately convex.
I'm hoping that Malcolm could sent me a copy of the manual shown in his first photo - 585/1260. This is what I've been searching for !
I've sent you a PM.
For interest attached are photos of my CS 12/2 in it's original position.
Farmer needed space to garage a very nice Testa P100D car - who says there's no money in farming ?
Cheers,
Jim
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A beautiful set-up and probably installed by a company at the top of their game back then maybe anticipating 30 years of faithful service from the POV of 1952 in a rural setting. A great find
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Indeed ! That's what I thought when it popped up on Ebay !
Mains electricity arrived at the farm in 1957, so after then it must have only been used intermittently.
They must have used both main & genny power as there is a changeover switch that I got with it !
I think it had been worked hard though.
I'm well on with the refurb, but it had some abuse unfortunately. Many fasteners severely overtightened & others not so !
The big ends were well worn 0.010 to 0.012" undersize but fitted with standard non SOM bearings ! Got 0.010 undersize SOM type bearings & everything is good.
Cylinders not too bad with only a small patch of chrome worn through, pistons ok too.
Oddly the fuel tappets & the bores they fit into were extremely worn giving an up to 0.025" rattle fit !
Usual frost damage was easily fixed with silver solder !
Valves & valve guides needed to be replaced too.
Cheers,
Jim
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My guess, looking at is, is that originally it was a hand-start engine. It's got at least one of the manual fuel shut-off levers; and the manual decompressors. The SOM units (I assume the twins - although I've not seen one of those) would have a shaft which engaged the decompression lifters, mechanically coupled to the fuel rack actuator; so when the solenoid was released, spring pressure would push the rack shut & engage the decompression. When starting, the solenoid is powered up, pulling the whole system out of engagement.
I can't see - but I assume it's there somewhere - any kind of linkage between the two fuel pumps? If there's nowt there, then the engine will presumably not shut down automatically, you'd have to go and switch the fuel pump off by hand. And apply decompression should you so desire.
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Hi Ade,
Apologies for seemingly hijacking this thread but it's topic is certainly common to Malcolm's & my engine !
This set is completely original and hasn't been messed about with at all. It was installed in 1952 exactly as we see it today.
So the lack of a decompression actuator solenoid is really quite a surprise.
The compression C/O valves with their convex shape was maybe the first step in going to the plugs that we see on Malcolm's 18/2 engine. I've seen reference to these C/O valves on another post on this forum.
Perhaps the 7.5kVA generator was capable of turning over the engine with full compression ? Of course I'm nowhere near trying that yet !
In answer to your question - yes the 2 fuel pump racks are linked together & are controlled by the governor in exactly the same way as with Malcolm's.
So there is the FCS (Fuel Control Solenoid) & the microswitch which senses when the engine is up to speed.
I'm not quite sure how this FCS works but it's spring loaded to the stop position & by solenoid action must allow the racks to open to full throttle position.
I have no toggle on the fuel rack to limit the full throttle position - I see Malcolm's does !
The 585/1260 manual that Malcolm has will, I'm sure, explain everything !
Hope he can copy it for me.
Cheers,
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Can you take a closeup of how the fuel racks are connected? Because I couldn't see it in the photos posted... would be interesting!
Regarding the decompression - I'd expect the starter to be able to pull the engine through full compression. My 6/1 has a mangled together ST head, with a flex plate off, erm, something, and a Ford 12v starter motor on it, and with a good 12v battery, it has no problem with compression. I don't have the solenoid on mine, so I have to do any fuel rack closing/decompression by hand; that's more to do with laziness than anything else, I've just never got around to sorting it out properly....
COVs - these were never fitted to the 8/1 engines, they always (IIRC!) had a "blanking plug" installed. Presumably, by then, Lister were able to confidently run the engines at full power on the higher compression; or maybe the plugs give a half-way house between low and high. On the older 3/1, 5/1 and so on, the higher compression was required to start, but once running, the engine was less stressed on the lower compression (and still gave the power). Of course, that would presumably mean that your S-o-M set would automatically start, then you'd have to dash out to the engine shed (in the cold wet and dark - this is England after all!), spin the C-o-V to low compression; then, when going to bed, you'd presumably have to repeat the process to ensure the engine was on high compression, ready to start in the morning! More likely, I bet every S-o-M lighting plant spent the bulk of its life on high compression....
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Hi Ade,
Attached are photos that show the linkages to the fuel pumps.
First is a top view which isn't particularily clear & the 2nd & 3rd ones show the non governor & governor sides.
On the governor side the bolt with the "pad" engages with the engine speed detection microswitch.
I can confirm that this set is exactly as supplied as the electrical circuit diagram matches exactly with the physical components & is date stamped 1952, the year of supply.
I will post photos of the special compression COVs used on this 12/2 engine along with a standard 6/1 one for comparison.
Cheers,
Jim
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Aaah, ok, that makes perfect sense now, thanks for the pics! One thing.... it'd be much appreciated if you could re-size them a little smaller before uploading them please? The forum software isn't that great at showing pictures, so unless you're on a 4K screen (I'm not...) it gets a bit iffy viewing them.
Pro tip: Right-click the thumbnail & select "Open content in new tab/window" or similar, then let your browser handle the zooming in/out...
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Hi Ade,
Sorry about the photos being too big - I'll resize them before posting.
Tried deleting them so I could post resized ones, but I can't do that. As you say opening in a new window works fine.
Attached is photo of the compression COVs, the one on the right being the type fitted to my 12/2.
Pt No on the standard Main Plug is 8-1/C3 & the other is 10-5/259.
Interestingly the 1970 CS booklet 103/171 for the 6/1, 8/1, 12/2 & 16/2 engines shows the engines fitted with blanking plugs as standard. The compression COVs are an optional extra.
There is no mention of the different Main Plug.
I wonder if this was a short lived variant, that was fitted to gen sets ?
Cheers,
Jim
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Those old Lister engineers lived in an era when technology had been changing quite slowly, especially from the POV of designers working on engines in the '20s and 30s. Remember it took them years to decide that a 3/1 could give another half HP at an extra 50 RPM and a 5/1 could make an extra horsepower at 650 RPM
It wouldn't surprise me to fin d there was an ongoing "service bulletin" system and that at some point installation engineers fitted, say, the convex COV to SOM machines, but with an extra base gasket . . . that sort of thing
Although we look back and think of them as fairly static, or as having changed in stages, I would guess there was constant, minor, incremental change; and that engineers in, say, freezing northern Scotland had a different "tune" as standard to those in Manchester - that sort of thing