Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: rdbates1 on March 13, 2018, 11:53:49 PM

Title: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: rdbates1 on March 13, 2018, 11:53:49 PM
I'm having a very hard time finding WMO.  Would a Changfa burn a mix with a large percentage of hydraulic oil mixed with various automotive oils?  Another option might be a hot bulb engine but would it react to the fuel about the same as a regular diesel?
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: glort on March 14, 2018, 01:58:15 AM

I have been burning " alternative" fuels in my vehicle and stationary engines for over 15 years. These simple mechanical injected engines don't give a shit what you burn in them, and they certainly don't procrastinate about it as much as the owners do!  :0)

The thing is there are a lot of variables to long term use. Temperature, the actual oils, the blend, the engine and injection rate, condition, load and other things can all affect the way the engine burns it and how well it burns it.
Fortunately there is a simple and straightforward thing that will allow your engine to burn any slop you can get into it and that is water injection.

I have droned on much about it here ( and everywhere else I had the opportunity) but it comes down to a small amount dripped into the intake while the engine is running that will clean out any and all deposits and make it safe to burn anything at all.  Some people suggest that giving the engine a good spray of water down the intake with a spray bottle works for them at the end of each run. I prefer the constant application but as long as there is no buildup in the engine getting to the point it affects performance or operation, all good. If buildup is minimal then constant feed may be over kill for cleaning purposes although it will have other benefits. If you can get away with less complication, why not?

I run used veg oil in my vehicles and engines and have found that even in warm weather, the addition of 5% Petrol helps a lot with performance and when it gets cooler, up to 15% can help with starting when it's freezing or below. Some people blend ULP to help thin the oil but I'll spare you the long rant of why that or heating the fuel is a complete and utter waste of time and misnomer.  The only benefit may be to get the oil/ fuel to flow through the filters better as far as thinning goes but when it comes to combustion, well touted on the net fairy tale.

I would be inclined to add 5% petrol to the mix to try and bring the ignition point of the fuel back closer to where it was meant to be given the timing will be set for the properties of Diesel fuel, not hydraulic or whatever mix you put in it. I believe the lower compression ignition point of the petrol helps initiate the burn with other oils with higher cetane ratings and bring the cycle closer back to the ignition timing that would occour if the engine were running on diesel as designed.

If you will be running alternative oils frequently/ constantly, then I would strong suggest if you have the ability to adjust the timing around 5o advanced which will better suit heavier, thicker fuels with higher cetane values that will light off later in the compression cycle.  This will help with power and also the fuel burning cleaner and easier starting.

In my experience, Changfa design horizontal engines are about the most tolerant of all engines with alternative fuels.  Not easy if at all possible to change the timing generally, if they have some shims under the pump you can take them out but that is onlt going to be a lot of adjustment. that said, the 2 horizontals I have run just fine on any gloop I have fed them and the Water injection keeps the internals literally looking like they were just polished with a rag.

I know in some parts it's hard to get and others plentiful, but if you can get onto a supply Of used veg oil, that is good stuff to use as well.
Just make sure whatever oil you get is filtered down to 5UM or less and that any Veg oil is actually dried. It absorbs water from the air so dry is not the absence of water droplets, it's the absence of dissolved moisture which is a very different thing.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 14, 2018, 02:07:56 AM
A diesel engine can be made to run on almost any oil. You may have to mix it with kero or regular diesel to get the viscosity you require, especially if you live in a very cold climate, some people use regular gasoline as thinner. Many people use different blends for summer and winter. It is vital that your blended fuel is filtered down to at least 5 microns to ensure no metal particles get into the fuel system.
You might find it advisable to use a two tank set up where you start on regular diesel before switching to your blended fuel. It is also common to switch back to regular diesel before stopping the engine, this ensures an easy start the next time.
A further problem with hydraulic oils is that some are hydroscopic and will absorb water out of the atmosphere over time.
This could cause corrosion issues to fuel tanks, pumps, injectors and etc.
Most people running WMO find that they get carbon deposits inside the engine which can lead to premature engine failure, this is readily treated by water injection which cleanses the cylinders of these ash deposits.
good luck,
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: rdbates1 on March 15, 2018, 01:24:12 AM
For water injection, I've thought of using a garden personal cooling mister since it's low volume and creates a fine mist.  The engine will run 24/7 driving a 5k generator feeding a grid tie inverter so the load should be constant and also near the capacity of the engine.  I'd like to be able to run veggie oil but there is a large bio-diesel refinery in town and the grab every drop of oil in the area.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 05:08:56 AM
Hi rdbates1, I don`t quite understand the set up you are proposing. A grid tie invertor is usually connected to the mains supply and converts dc power to ac power to match the voltage and frequency of that mains supply. This allows home generated power to be safely used on site or exported to the grid. Does your Changfa produce dc power or are you planning to rectify it before sending it to the invertor? Perhaps you are talking about a system with a cross over switch so you can run everything off the generator but switch back to mains power in an emergency.

Perhaps I have misunderstood completely and you are planning to use the generator to provide the voltage and frequency side of the inverter which would allow for solar panels and or battery backup to supplement the generator. I`m not sure how well that would work as the frequency and voltage would only be as stable as the governor/AVR on the generator.
A lot of people just squirt water into the air inlet, the engine will start to bog down if you give it too much. You don`t have to run water into it all the time, just a regular flush should do it. There are people on the forum who have set up automatic water injection systems but I don`t know how successful or otherwise these are.

Very sorry to hear that some greedy sod has taken all the WVO for biodiesel. Straight WVO dried and filtered would have been a good fuel for your setup. Perhaps you should open a fast food joint and recycle your own waste oil.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: glort on March 15, 2018, 06:12:28 AM

I have done a 3 Phase induction motor driven by a diesel  Running through a rectifier and into a GTI.
It's not easy to get it right because the GTI is NOT stable at all unless you are giving it the full power of it's capacity. the rest of the time they hunt around trying to find the best tradeoff between volts and amps.  It you max them out they are OK with little variation but under that.... they walk around a bit.

If the power head was a standard generator I would think wouldn't be too bad. Just make sure the rectifier(s) are at least double the capacity of the power output and are heatsunk/ cooled adequately.  Also remember that when rectifying AC you get a 30?? % voltage increase although that shouldn't worry a GTI.

In this case, I'd have to say I think a constant WI system would be better than a batch( water squirter) application.
You do NOT need a fine mist for cleaning, that's poppycock from teh people that want to sell you a high pressure pump.  a constant drip into the inlet will be plenty fine.  the water will break up or evaporate along the inlet path and when it hits the back of the hot valve or top of the piston.
You wouldn't need much, 100 Ml hour would be plenty.  It will keep the inlet cool, keeping the air density a bit heavier and give a tiny increase in power.

You could have something like a Drip setup like they give you in hospital feeding water into the inlet supplied from a tank. You can by those things on fleabay.  That would give you control of the feed rate and a dead simple system. If you feed the water from a low point and rely on the airflow to suck it onto the engine you won't have to worry about flooding if it stopped but I'd not be concerned anyway.  If engine stops and water fills it, you clear it with the De compressor which you'd use on a normal start any way and one turn would get rid of enough water to avoid Damage.  Given you'd probably know when the engine did stop and at the application rate, take a while to fill and it's most likely going to stop when both valves are closed on compression anyway.

You could also use a little micro watering garden dripper and tap. May not be very linear as the tank went down but this is far from critical dosage. Just fill the tank when you do your daily checks and that's it.

Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: rdbates1 on March 15, 2018, 09:12:46 PM
I'm planning to run a 240v generator head and boost/retify the output to around 315v DC which is the optimal input for the inverter I found.
I'll also be running a waste oil fired boiler.  The reason for the project is I bought a house in western Oregon with a pool.  In the summer with the A/C and pool pump running power runs upwards of $250 a month with gas at around  $80 for hot water.  In the winter gas and power prices flip. With both running I should be able to reduce my energy costs to very little and heat the pool which is pretty chilly even in August around here.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 15, 2018, 10:57:10 PM
The Changfa should run fine on filtered waste motor oil. I`m not so sure about the boiler. Generally oil boilers have different sizes of spray nozzles for different weights of oil. A bit of tinkering should sort it. Be careful to ensure a clean burn so you don`t block up the exhaust flue with soot. Recommend you fit a carbon monoxide detector in the boiler room to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: glort on March 16, 2018, 12:16:55 PM
In the summer with the A/C and pool pump running power runs upwards of $250 a month with gas at around  $80 for hot water.

Most people round here would be jumping for Joy if they could run AC and a pool pump for $250 a month.
Bother in law round the corner pays $1600 quarter, $533 a month for his power bill and that does not raise an eyebrow or is anything remotely unusual in this area.
$12- 1800 a quarter for those that don't have solar is the typical range.

I got into the whole waste oil thing because I wanted a cheap way to heat my pool. Built a LOT of waste oil burners and created a whole YT channel on them but never actually did get round to heating the pool.... not that I couldn't.
I did a couple of times but had trouble. I got an old boiler from an Olympic pool complex my mate put a new boiler into. It was a gas boiler rated at 200Kw.

I had a fair bit of trouble keeping my oil burner down to that and unlike what I incorrectly presumed, You CAN"T just throw a ship load of heat at the things and make them run harder. If the water boils in the tubes, it's not good..... as I found out.  No real problem but certainly scary enough to let you know you are not playing with a toy.

I built a hot water heater that ran on oil I did use and it worked fantastic. Once it was up to heat, the output was endless. We went from a tiny heater the Kids were always screamed at if they were in the shower for more than  10 Min to "Take your time, hot water isn't going to run out for at least 4 hours before I have to top up the fuel tank! "

Going to get that out again and fire it up soon. I want some real hot water and plenty of it to kill weeds in the garden.

I know beans about commercial boilers but I do know you have to tweak the air setting at very least to run different fuels from the diesel they are designed for. You  may also have to watch the electric ignition. Waste oils don't light up nearly as easily as Diesel.

You are going to need a LOT of oil if you are heating the pool. Crunch the numbers for the size you have and the temp rise and multiply that out by the initial warm up time and BTU a day to maintain it. You will want to cover the pool to stop heat loss as well. You can find all the calculators you need for heat rise, surface temp loss with wind chill, oil volume to water temp rise etc online.
For my pool, I needed a 200L drum to get it to temp but I did do it in 8 hours flat. Most heaters are normally rated to bring a pool up to temp in 24 and size matched accordingly. If you are going to constantly keep the pool heated, I think you will be surprised at the amount of oil you are going to need.
It is a real good idea to get your sources organised and start stockpiling what you can BEFORE you start using it to give yourself a buffer.

Also, set yourself up from the start with a filtering system that is up to the capacity you need. I stated off with filter bags and 25L drums. Didn't take long before I was running 1" pumps and had 7 IBC's around the place with oil settling to finished oil ready to be put into smaller drums and then put in the vehicle.  At one stage I had my own fueling setup with a proper nozzle like a service station. had a remote control on the pump on the other side of the house to turn it on and off.
Unfortunately, I could not keep rats from chewing through the hose or pipe ( metal was too expensive) so had to go back to the drum method. Having ones own " Bowser" on the driveway was very cool though.... while it lasted.

 I made a cover for my pool with thick builders plastic. I had to " weld" it together down the middle with a soldering iron to get the width but it was incredibly effective.  Could not tear it at the weld at all.
In the warmer, sunnier months, Having 100% surface collection area made it very effective and in summer, couple of hot days made the water too warm to comfortably swim in.
Being black and keeping out the UV, the chlorine levels, in my case salt Chlorinator's , could be backed right off and the leaves and crap never got in either. Was a cheap and VERY worthwhile investment.

Bob is spot on about ensuring a clean burn. I have seen first hand gas boilers that coked up through the air ratio being off. Trust me, a coked up boiler is NOT something you want to have to deal with.
Oil will burn perfectly clean save maybe for some wood like ash that's easy to remove when it is burning properly.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: ajaffa1 on March 16, 2018, 09:14:59 PM
Swimming pools are a pain, had one years ago in the UK. One spring we took the cover off to find a dead sheep. It must have been in there for months, the entire surface of the pool had a thick layer of animal fat. What a bit*h of a thing to clean.

A mate of mine is a potter and he uses waste oil to fire his kiln. has to run it at very high temperatures for 24 hour periods. I`ll ask if I can have a sticky beak at his setup and get back to you.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: glort on March 17, 2018, 02:00:36 AM

Really depends how you set pools up. The one I had at the other place was always Immaculate and I literally spent 5-10 min a week on it.
Was salt chlorinated and had a Kreepy Krauly running around constantly vaccuming it.  I cleaned the skimmer box of leaves, through is some acid once a week ( didn't even test most of the time as the thing as always consistent in it's PH rise) and that was about it.

Yeah, running a 2Hp Pump 4-8 hours a day is not cheap if you are paying for the power and they can be heavy on water evap too. They do look bloody nice though although that's a real luxury if you don't use them.
Mrs wanted to put one in here but I'm not keen. Can spend a fraction of the money and put in a spa that is more likley to get used all year round and cost a fraction of what a pool does.

Maybe I Might be tempted to do my own lap pool or something small if I can do most of it myself and get the cost right down but not real motivated for that either.  Spa I think is a better option.

There is a guy from Brazil I get emails off every now and then that built one of my waste oil burners for Drying grain. Apparently he used to spend a HUGE amount of his income on  LPG to fire the burners in his dryer.  He converted to a WOB and is always telling me about what a difference it made to him and his family. They have been able to now afford more machinery, expand their operation into adjoining land they rent cheap and it's improved his family's quality of life.  Guy thinks I walk on water but it's real nice to know you helped someone and made a difference to them.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil mixed with automotive oils
Post by: rdbates1 on March 17, 2018, 03:34:15 AM
Thanks guys for all of you help.  I'd be very interested in taking a look at some burner designs.  I've been looking at a kit on to convert a Beckett burner to waste oil.  The boiler will also be supplementing domestic heat and hot water.  My wife and daughter both can drain a water heater pretty quickly.

I can't imaging finding a dead sheep in the pool.  It would definitely be an "off the books" cleanup while my wife wasn't home or she would never get in it again.

I've got a salt system for the pool too and am extremely please with how well it works and how little effort it takes to keep the pool clean.  One of the benefits of the generator will be to run the pump at least some to keep the pool clear in the winter without the heater running.  I'm in the process of remodeling primarily the yard now and don't have a fence around the pool itself.  The first fall we were here I was finishing putting the cover on and one of our dogs decided to walk out on the cover and started to sink.  Fortunately, I was able to get him off of the cover, which hasn't been on since, before he sank to the bottom.  My wife's young daughter was outside and ran in to tell her mom that Mr. Bob had said a bad word.  My mind raced as I tried to remember what I said, which normally would have been noteworthy, but I only called the dog stupid.  I'll definitely take a look at a good cover once the fence is up and have also thought about a solar heater to supplement the pool heat.