Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ajaffa1 on March 06, 2018, 11:05:39 AM
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At first I thought this was funny, then I realised that as a tax payer in NSW the joke is on me https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/nsw-government-ordered-trains-worth-202120497.html
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Sounds like a communist plot to me.
Vladimir: Comrade Bruce I want you to go and buy trains that won`t work, here`s 3 billion quid.
A week later
Vladimir: Comrade Bruce how did you get on?
Bruce: Very well comrade Vladimir, I bought trains that are too wide for the tunnels.
Vladimir: Good work Bruce, how much did it cost?
Bruce: Sadly they would only take 2.5 billion so I sent the balance to North Korea.
Vladimir: Well done, I`ll contact our man in parliament house and get it all approved. I want you to get on the phone and see if you can get the manufacturer to change the gauge of the wheels, that way they will have to replace all the track as well as the tunnels and platforms.
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Alas, the problem isn't unique just to government- large corporations have the same problems. Basically any large group of humans results in the same thing. The eventual death of Motorola came as no surprise to me after working for them for a few years and attending their global marketing conference for upper managers...amazing things are done to improve appearances on the next quarterly report...despite the eventual consequences. Ditto for utterly incompetent management at a big military contractor...an entire huge facility built, staffed and closed (leased) in 7 years...I'd guess hundreds of millions lost but can't even think in numbers that big.
The problem we face is that we must continue to have humans "in charge", and most have already risen to their level of incompetency. Ignorance and greed are the traits you can really count on, anything else is a fluke.
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The law of business.... Promote staff to their 1st level of incompetency.....
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Total absence of rational decision making when staring at clear, unequivocal evidence of very serious problems is an all to common theme for humans.
It's distressing for those who care about the future collective state of humans. It's hard to see a way through.
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I'm in complete agreement on nuclear power and the human issue with building and operating, though the waste disposal problem is also very real and much hairier than presented to us as young engineers. Every single one of the methods proposed at that time (1975) has since failed profoundly, such as dilution an mixing with cement or creating a ceramic composite- anything to stabilize the crap so it can be stored in a hole somewhere safely. They all failed as the radioactive bombardment destroys the structure of anything tried so far. Other ideas were tested and also failed miserably.
There still is no good plan, and the current farce is that barrels of liquid waste will be replaced with new barrels (aka the shell game) before they leak for 10,000+ years, as if stability of government for that duration has ever happened. At Yucca mtn. in the US, where our depository is supposed to be, specially tagged water was released, and found to show up in area aquifers in only a few years. They also found it to be on a previously unnoticed fault line. No worries, we'll just keep stockpiling at the points of use!
I think a good measure of the rationality of nuclear power as built and operated are the insurance costs; for nuclear power plants, NO insurance company in the world will insure them.
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It's really sad that government acts like a big corporation in dealing with it's own citizens and screws them when there is a toxic injury. You'd think such deep pockets would allow a bit of compassion but it's no different.
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The US media has been very quiet about Fukishima. Last I read it was still pouring radiation directly into the ocean, and there was no way to deal with much of the source radiation as robot electronics were destroyed in short order by the intense radiation.
From the start there was an appeal by nuclear scientists about the seriousness of the situation that recommended a huge multinational effort to deal with Fukishima and it was ignored. Humans prefer denial when faced with complexity or difficulty.
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The US media has been very quiet about Fukishima. Last I read it was still pouring radiation directly into the ocean, and there was no way to deal with much of the source radiation as robot electronics were destroyed in short order by the intense radiation.
From the start there was an appeal by nuclear scientists about the seriousness of the situation that recommended a huge multinational effort to deal with Fukishima and it was ignored. Humans prefer denial when faced with complexity or difficulty.
Everything is radioactive . It is just how much . Ever look at the cancer rates of a couple of particular Japanese cities ? The amount of radiation from Fukushima leaking into the ocean is how much compared to natural occurring potassium 40 ?
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You've got to look out for those cruise missiles armed with natural occurring potassium 40.
Once you start to understand how many people suffer and die because of tobacco, alcohol and sugar every year all over the world you start to understand how innocent war is.
Sleep tight.
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I found this interesting.
http://ourradioactiveocean.org/results.html
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You've got to look out for those cruise missiles armed with natural occurring potassium 40.
Once you start to understand how many people suffer and die because of tobacco, alcohol and sugar every year all over the world you start to understand how innocent war is.
Sleep tight.
Tell us how much time that you have spent inside containment at a nuclear power plant.
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The real problem with safety of these plants has and always will be human error. Engineers assured the public, when these things were built, that the chance of a major incident was less than a million to one. so Fukashima, Chernoble and Three Mile Island makes three that I know of. Thus it stands to reason that there must be at least three million of these plants operating.
A second problem is disposal of radioactive waste. This material will remain hazardous for tens of thousands of years. Can any one think of a way of marking a burial site so that humans thousands of years in the future will know not to dig it up?
The third major issue is that the engineers designing and building this sh1t had no idea of how to decommission them at the end of their life. They went ahead and built them hoping that improvements in technology would provide a solution. It hasn`t, the consequence of this is that we have now have dozens of plants that have or are reaching the end of their useful lives. The structures are made of concrete and steel and will probably decay away in a thousand years or so. The radioactive waste inside them will still be a hazard in tens of thousands of years.
So the promise of unlimited cheap electricity was a lie. If you remove government subsidies from nuclear generation coal, gas, hydro and solar are all cheaper. If you add in the costs of waste storage and decommissioning we are looking at the most toxic white elephant in human history. Incredible as it may sound, governments around the globe are still planning to build more of these poisonous money pits, further evidence of the stupidity/corrupt nature of our leaders.
Grumpy Bob
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Countries are like long queues of traffic, the are invariably led by the slowest and least competent
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I really worry that we are leaving future generations with a toxic and polluted planet. Carcinogenic air, sea full of plastic, all useful resources used up. A fiery, poisonous hell hole.
How did we achieve this in such a short time? Greed, stupidity, unaccountable politicians and over population.
What can we do about it? A total change in the global economic model is required. Chasing ever increasing growth, in a finite environment, is madness. Why has no one figured out that what we need is no growth and a massive decrease in population. Imagine how well off we would all be with the same amount of money and resources shared out amongst half as many people.
I am not advocating for war, famine or disease but if we don`t do something soon you can be absolutely sure that nature will. Locust plagues always start with excessive breeding and end with famine and extinction.
Still grumpy Bob
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Hey Glort, if you have a spare hour or so watch this, it`ll scare the sh1t out of you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOykY2SMbZ0
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I concur Bob, both on nuclear power operations safety, waste disposal, true cost of power produced and the obvious need to immediately begin reducing human population if we are to keep some quality of life on this planet for future generations. Alas, humans don't like coping with collective type issues or beyond their own immediate, puny lifespan.
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I try and keep in mind that the single most powerful population control, besides the government of China, is personal wealth. As the wealth of the people of a nation rises the birth rate falls.
As for the big die off that's coming? Who knows?
Oh yeah. Folks that are pro atomic power just don't understand the human population or how long 20,000 years is.
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I just finished the YouTube article. Really an eye opener. Well worth the watch.
When we're all millionaires we will have cured the problem. It's simple math.
Thanks for the link.
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Thanks Bob for that link. I just watched Prof. Bartlet's presentation myself. He did a great job. We are living in a Ponzi scheme promotion.
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Thanks guys, its a pretty impressive lecture. Highlights a lot of the problems we are facing, sadly it doesn`t offer any solutions.
I hope that by alerting people to the reality of what is going on some of us will be prepared.
Perhaps Elon Musk isn`t crazy wanting to go and live on mars.
Bob
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Yes, I agree that Elon Musk is all mouth and trousers however I find it alarming that so many billionaires are researching ways to get off this planet, rather than spending their money on trying to protect it. Do they know something we don`t?
Bob
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I'm thinking Elon or his his buds anyway just haven't seen the rule of 70. The first step, in most programs, to work or cure a problem is to recognize it and say "Hello, my name is Casey. I abuse the doubling of stuff and refuse to change my ways!"
The common second step is to blame others and turn the thermostat up to 74.
Elon and Zuckerburg have enough math to understand this principle completely. And Bill too. Interesting the big swingers in pop culture all started with studies in mathematics. Plastics of the 21st century.
I noticed that the rule of halving wasn't discussed.
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Ha, yes, all we need is a modest 3% reduction in population every year. Quite politically palatable. ;)
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If you accept that people only live to a maximum of 100 years, then it stands to reason that for a stable population 1% must die every year, matched by reproduction also at 1%.
Anything that increases mortality or decreases fertility would have a positive effect. Medicine is bad, contraception is good. The jury is still out on same sex marriage.
Bob
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I guess we are both cruel bastards then. I completely agree that the money that has been pumped into these organisations has failed to alleviate the problem, indeed you could argue that it has made the problem worse.
I object very strongly to tax payer funded overseas aid when we still have so many problems of our own. Charity begins at home.
As for being subjected to harrowing pictures of starving children on the TV, while I`m trying to eat my dinner, makes me furious. If these charities spent less on administration and more on service provision I might begin to take them seriously.
As for the corruption of the governments in famine hit regions it beggars belief. I remember the Live Aid concerts to feed the starving in Ethiopia. They shipped millions of tons of grain there to feed people, suddenly the cheapest place to buy grain on the world market was Ethiopia. No doubt a lot of corrupt port officials made a killing. I believe one of the biggest buyers was McDonalds.
F**king speechless,
Bob
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Hey Glort, quality rant. I`m with you about giving money rather than genuine aid. Giving money is easy: first you set up an appeal fund, second you deduct 70% of the donated funds for administration, third you transfer the remaining balance to some corrupt official in the effected area. All of this can be done at a computer console in an air conditioned office. No effort or skills required.
Sending genuine aid would require multilingual people skilled in purchasing, shipping and distribution. Far too difficult!
Please don`t misunderstand me there are some very good organisations doing this sort of work, Medicine sans frontier and the Fred Hollows foundation spring immediately to mind. I would have added Oxfam to that list but recent revelations about sexual exploitation by aid workers in effected areas make my blood boil.
Many years ago, while living in the UK, I had some dealings with the Prince of Wales Trust, a charitable organisation set up to provide training and opportunities for disadvantage young people. A very worthy cause you might think. I was invited to a meeting at their headquarters, on arriving I discovered a row of 20 or more shiny new Mercedes Benz motor cars in the car park. No doubt one for every executive on the board. I very quickly found better things to do with my time.
There are some very well meaning and committed people out there who devote their time and energy to helping others. The problem, as usual, is that the management/executive classes see these organisations as a career opportunity with deep pockets. They exploit this to benefit themselves rather than the poor sods they are supposed to be helping.
Still F**king speechless.
Bob
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What a shame that some a**hole always has to spoil things, No doubt he got a promotion and pay rise as a reward.
Reminds me of my time in the military where the only way to get rid of a useless individual was to promote them. You would then be over quota on that particular rank and they would be posted elsewhere.
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Yes to you very hard and very very bad asses of the world. Keep a large segment of the population poor and ignorant. It's the only moral or smart thing to do with them all. They will continue to over populate and live in shit holes (just quoting the head screwball).
We will be able to set around on our self-righteous pompous parts and feel superior. Yes, your assessments are valid and words with which to manage the universe.
Rant on my privileged brothers and sisters. Rant on!
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Not interested in going into politics glort? You'd have my vote. You're not alone in your thinking fellas.
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We shouldn`t encourage him but Senator Glort does have a sort of ring to it. :laugh:
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Pffft! Could you imagine me in Politics?
I'd be assassinated the 2nd day.
50 of us together -might- survive for a while but one on their own would have no chance. Too many vested interests with too much power behind the scenes pulling the puppets strings to make them dance just as they do to the steps they want them to do.
Me with some power, Ha! I can only Imagine.....
Not to mention the speeches, oh the hours long speeches. ;D
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You could start your own party, then you get to choose which vested interests you want to be bribed by.
First speech should start "We`ll fight them on the servo forecourts."
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Vote Glort, eat the rich! :laugh:
Bob
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Think I may have started something....
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Good Grief!
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they would be about 99.5% more bullshit free!
I'd gaurantee they would be 100% Less insulting to peoples intelligence.
Hmmmmmm, I'd start with my posts. :~)
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Hey guys, Glort is right about building them here. Ford and Holden (General Motors) have both recently closed their manufacturing facilities in Australia. The tax payer is now having to pay to feed, house and cloth these people and their families. It shouldn't be too difficult to retrain a person skilled in the production and assembly of motor vehicles to build trains.
The government are always banging on about trying to balance the budget, yet they would rather import trains that won`t work than create employment for our own people.
What a crock of sh1t, shame on them.
Bob
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Switzerland is a fine example of how it should be done, spend the money on infrastructure, invest in industry, teach all the people how to safely use firearms to protect themselves. Avoid expenditure on any armament that could be perceived as having an offensive capability.
Consequently they have one of the highest rates of employment, the highest incomes and some of the finest engineers and facilities on the planet. They also have one of the lowest murder rates and avoided being invaded in two world wars.
With all the natural and human resources at our disposal how come we still have some indigenous people with no education and short life expectancy living in mud huts?
Farming out government investment to foreign countries is madness and only exacerbates the problems, when will we ever learn that we need to look after our own people first because no foreign power is going to?
Can anyone explain to me why we are importing reo-bar, made in China from Australian iron ore and coal, via Spain? It would surely make sense to make our own reo-bar, wouldn`t it? What does it cost to ship this stuff all around the world and what are the environmental consequences?
Rant over,
Bob
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Sorry Gents,
But the capital stops at the board meeting and not the legislature. You're simply blaming the wrong tribe.
Casey
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How are you combining nuclear warfare with power generated via a nuclear reactor ?
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Take a look at the actual numbers of what people die of and get back to us. You will find deaths due to nuclear are very low on the list.
How much first hand experience do you have in the nuclear industry ?
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Hey guys, Glort is right about building them here. Ford and Holden (General Motors) have both recently closed their manufacturing facilities in Australia. The tax payer is now having to pay to feed, house and cloth these people and their families. It shouldn't be too difficult to retrain a person skilled in the production and assembly of motor vehicles to build trains.
The government are always banging on about trying to balance the budget, yet they would rather import trains that won`t work than create employment for our own people.
What a crock of sh1t, shame on them.
Bob
Where are these trains going to go and what will they haul ?
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Donald John Trump
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Why do so many people complain about corporate decisions whilst blaming the government? These failures are a function of the corporate capitalistic model. Great bait and switching but just not valid. (A word associated with truth.)
I wonder how the battery powered trucks are going to affect trucking traffic. This is going to be a really neat ten years. I hope I make it just for curiosity's sake.
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Why do so many people complain about corporate decisions whilst blaming the government? These failures are a function of the corporate capitalistic model. Great bait and switching but just not valid. (A word associated with truth.)
I wonder how the battery powered trucks are going to affect trucking traffic. This is going to be a really neat ten years. I hope I make it just for curiosity's sake.
How will battery powered trucks can travel cross country.
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Where are these trains going to go and what will they haul ?
They will carry people inter and intra city.
They can carry Grain, coal, ore, livestock, heavy machinery, food, manufactured goods and everything else they now send by road.
Trucks are a complete menace and scourge of our roads. Here they make up 12% of the vehicles on the road and are responsible for over 40% of serious accidents. There is not a day goes by without a truck accident makes the headline news. Transporting goods by rail is far more efficient and removes a lot of traffic, long haul especially.
Different taking merchandise from the rail head to the point of delivery than across states and country.
If door to door rail transportation worked and was cost effective . Rail would be used for short haul instead of trucks. Rail only pays for Hub to Hub transportation of goods in sea cans. Or bulk cross country transport of crude oil, coal, grain etc.
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Is that because trucking companies are all private enterprise. I guess pollies make popular decisions to try and regulate road transport because self regulation for most enterprises has proved to be a failure in the past. Mostly because there are reams of rules but nobody to bother policing them.
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I'm guessing here glort. But I'd suspect that Australia is much like the US in publicly owned assets. Here in the states they are managed by publicly owned corporations. That includes CEOs and board members with all kinds of "other" agencies.
I'm from the camp that believes that without consequences the hope for change is stupid. I worked in a privately owned home for unhappy teenage boys. "No Consequences - No Modification of Behavior." was our favorite mantra. These kids were already operating in the corporate model.
Mother Truckers are everywhere. You just have bigger trucks.