Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: 38ac on December 26, 2017, 01:07:32 PM
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Looks like you had a great Christmas! Looking forward to the progress!
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Good to see that project started Butch! I concur in most respects that Indian design departures from the Dursley originals usually carry some issues... The only ones that appear to be truly viable improvements are 750 rpm (big bore and stroke) 18/1 singles. These I have not found significant faults with, and expect to re-stock here shortly. Other than those, I am pleased with the original designs in simplicity and performance... no need to re-invent.
I am likewise glad to see your content has survived shipping and storage and more shipping and more storage without blemish. We do not always get quite that lucky although the parts and the crates are quite rugged. Some crates have arrived upside down and broken, some have been rain soaked during storage/transit. These days we really have to dismantle all overseas packaging and start over to insure the quality of what goes out our doors.
Thanks for your valuable documentation and lots of pictures and commentary!
dieselgman
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Pass the popcorn !
I don't want to miss this.
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Teardown time is also observation time. We have gibb key issues. Twin or single if you have keys that look like this you are inviting flywheel problems that are expensive to fix. Since it was not covered in the build thread it will on this build.
Other than being way too long, or else not being driven all the way in, and they fall out, what is wrong ?
If it's loose, I can see it backing out and chewing up the hub, but if it's tight, and there is some engagement inside the hub, what's the issue ?
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The tapers on those keys are often needing adjustment to fit properly to the crank and flywheel. Sometimes they lack the taper altogether. With a proper taper, they will go all the way into the slot to within about 3/8 to 1/2 inch of the flywheel and be fully tightened. I know it is much better to see them this way (easily removed and adjusted), than driven in too far with a 20lb sledge! :laugh: I have seen that problem and it can present a real challenge to remove without damage.
A good dressing with a sharp file will fix the issue in most cases. I also like to use a little bench belt sander around the shop for minor adjustments as well.
Butch, you most likely have some good rule-of-thumb wisdom on the topic... bottom line, don't trust the Indian finished parts to be perfect right out of the box.
dieselgman
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Looks like what I removed from my twin
by the same method.
I ended up with about 1/2 cup by the time I got
done.
Gary
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As before I saved some bandwidth by not documentin the tear down. We are now at the point of beginning. Beside the normal cleaning we have some modifications to preform. As shipped there is no way to check the oil level or add oil except by removing the crankcase cover. We will be addressing that during block prep.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2qn5duw.jpg)
looking at the block pic my metro 12/2 center crank bearing supported by bolts from the top, yours from the block casting from the base? any comments?
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Sorry about the typos and big pics. Posting from my phone.
The ledge below the seats will be blended with the port. Supposed to be cold here for a spell so we may be delayed on the block work.
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Very nice work Butch... I presume this is set up in a Bridgeport end mill?
dieselgman
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Glort,
As much as you are here you must be aware of the potential problems.
I have a single and a twin. The twin got a total rebuild from new. The single I
must have been lucky as I basically "put it to work" with no more than a good
checking over.
The single has at least 100 hours on it. The twin probibly less than 50.
I would not trust either one long term. They both run fine with little vibration and
no problems. For some reason I expect either one to blow up at any given moment.
I also have a Chinese diesel. It is a "changfa" clone. The thing rattles and bangs like it
will let go at first run. It has always started, runs a 15kw st.head and powers my home
when needed. I don't really have much faith in it either. It probibly has a couple of hundred
hours on it with no problems.
I guess I am skeptical of any of the clone engines. I haven't had any real problems with any
of them but I always have this lingering fear they will blow up at any time.
My favorite engine is a Mitsubishi 3 cylinder from.the early 80's I got on a deal for next
to nothing. I have it coupled to a 7.5 st head and it runs great. That one I I don't fear as much.
Gary
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This is the one I trust more than the clones.
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Mitsubishi S4S licensed to Lister/Petter and turned out on the L/P Americas Kansas assembly line as a DWS4... arguably the best modern Lister engine available. Perkins, Caterpillar uses this same exact unit - 804D and 3044 nomenclature. 26 units remain available.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10003/DWS4-35kW.jpg)
dieselgman
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Very interesting build.
Thank you very much for sharing.
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Great details on the valve and seats- you are a great tech writer.
I have a few questions on valve guides:
How is the knurling of the valve guides done?
How do you check clearance to know that needs doing?
Could the originals still be used after driving them out of the head?
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Thanks for details on the knurling and fitting of valves and guides!
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The nostalgia factor....
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Lister took a cam drive that was just good enough for a single and doubled the load on it, trouble should be expected!
Exactly! Doubling the load on the camshaft gear taper pin, was a sure fire winning approach to creating problems later on down the line, even the Indians recognised this as a problem area in the original design, and beefed up the hub of camshaft timing gear casting. So as to try and overcome this problem, but this was more of a sticking plaster type solution which never totally cured the problem of the taper pin working loose. It just transferred the problem of the taper pin working loose from the timing gear cast boss, to the 7/8" diameter camshaft spindle.
Listers never really learn't their lesson in this regard, because when they created the Alpha range, the camshaft timing gear relies solely on an interference fit with the camshaft. Which is also a known weakness on this engine range particularly on the 3 and 4 cylinder engines for the same reasons as identified above.
They also took a marginally strong crankshaft and made it twice as long at double the loading,, trouble should be expected.
They also failed to double the bearing area, hence why a lot of the twins suffer from failure of the centre main bearing (as it gets the most loading, and has the smallest surface area of the three main bearings).
The lack of internal balance weights on the crankshaft is also another serious design flaw with these engines, which is further compounded by having the opposing out of balance force (flywheels) so far away from the source of the out of balance forces. Have you ever seen any twin cylinder Listeriod clones with crankshaft balance weights?
Compare and contrast the differences in the crankshaft from a CS 16/2 (three main bearings) to a Lister CE (also 16 BHP) which has 5 main bearings of considerably bigger diameter than the CS. This is the difference between an engine which was modified from an existing design AKA the Lister L type and one which was created from a blank sheet of paper.
A sensible option which would of been easy to implement, would have been to drastically increase the centre main bearing diameter (which I suspect is what the Indians have done to the large displacement CS twin clone engines, in an attempt to improve reliability).
A few years ago one of the parts stores in England had quite a few twin crankshafts made up to OEM specs. They were quite spendy but didnt last long.
I know who you mean (IIRC weren't they been advertised as an OEM part) I almost bought one myself at the time, but managed to find a NOS genuine article in the end for a lot less money.
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Interesting read on the Lister weaknesses, as here in South Africa they have achieved almost god status. I guess this is due to the fact that as a previous colony we imported thousands of these things in days gone by and were on most farms, dumpsters, concrete mixers and more. Our government at the time favoured them as gensets on all their remotes locations, i.e., forrestry, railways, police, mines. there are still hundreds of these lying around if one were to look properly. Unfortunately, a lot of them that became redundant and abandoned when the grid expanded, were simply stolen by the locals and sold as scrap metal. My landlord had a perfectly running example stolen from his farm, smashed into pieces and sold mainly for the copper.
I happened to find a good running SR2 startomatic with Hoffman 4Kw genny on a farm and bought it for about $200. Not knowing a lot about engines, I would be interested to hear what were the inherent weaknesses in this model.
Thanks,
Peter
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The lack of internal balance weights on the crankshaft is also another serious design flaw with these engines, Have you ever seen any twin cylinder Listeriod clones with crankshaft balance weights?
My 20/2 has bolt on crankshaft counterweights. I balanced the crank with the weights prior to assembly. It still shakes like crazy, even after a few hours playing with the ACES balancing equipment on the twin.
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We sometimes stock a 30/2 Listeroid that has internal counterweights... the crankshaft and valve train otherwise is the same as Lister original though. I don't recall hearing any particular complaints about the crankshafts in the twins... a few comments about the camshafts. I think Butch may have been the main contributor regarding reliability on these. I recall one unit that was dropped in shipment and bent the crank. That same thing has also happened on the 8/1 singles... they were just not designed to be dropped from any height with flywheels on. ;D
dieselgman
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As shipped there is no way to check the oil level or add oil except by removing the crankcase cover. We will be addressing that during block prep.
I'm curious of your approach on this improvement. I will be doing the same on a 6/1. They need it!
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My simple thought is a 90 deg threaded elbow & sight glass tube at the oil drain plug, and having only a tiny orifice to allow static (non-running) level viewing.
Of course thread pitch and material is important, it's got to withstand 105F oil temps !
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I use a urethane tube from the former drain plug hole as a sight tube for oil level. A warning- do not think you can tee into it to make an oil fill location...and you must terminate the end of the sight tube into the crankcase, since the crankcase is not at ambient pressure when running. The original capped tee arrangement caused an air bubble in the line which interfered with sight tube...it flat wouldn't work at all. Without the tee and cap for oil fill it works fine. There is no need for a small entry hole for splashing as Mike suggested - the level in the tube shows the average sump level and doesn't "pulse".
I put a small magnet in a piece of HDPE tubing with melted-sealed ends as a float inside the sight tube and sense oil level too high or low via reed switches. The sight tube still works for visual inspection, thus satisfying my desire to allow for total manual reversion. (Full normal operation with electronics turned off.) After an hour of running the oil is black and you don't really see the float tube as you do in the picture.
I use a homemade topsider for oil changes so the drain was unnecessary for me. I rarely need to add oil between 200 hr oil changes...and must change my "sock in a box" gravity oil filter so removing the crankcase big door for oil changes is required anyway. If I do add oil, I remove the small door. If I was adding oil regularly, I'd modify the small door for the oil fill.
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For just a oil level sight tube, a piece of 3/8 ID urethane tubing would make a dandy one. There are right angle brass hose barbs for 3/8 hose with 1/4 npt thread- small enough to allow easy drilling and tapping into the crankcase.
A tee and short riser for fill on the oil drain could then be used for allowing oil to be added.
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Very clever... similar to a Murphy sight level gauge. I would be concerned about the reliability of any plastic tubing and the possibility of it causing oil loss if it sprung a leak. The Murphy gauges are all metal castings with glass fronts for viewing. These are in ready supply for various industrial engines and gensets... about $50 (used) from our stocks.
dieselgman
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I've had the urethane oil sight tube in place for 12 years. It is still neither hard nor soft, only some yellowing. For oil or fuel it holds up well. I just replaced the piece used as a sight tube on the 15 gallon wall mounted fuel tank...it was still fine, but had yellowed to the point where it was getting hard to read the fuel level. This despite being used with B99 fuel for several years.
It's a different situation for tubing exposed to sunlight; my engine room is enclosed.
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Love the cart. Sure didn't take you long!
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Nice looking cart Butch! Solid axles I presume? What kind of wood is that? We all know you are good at balancing, it will be interesting to see if the clone twin will also settle down under your ministrations!
dieselgman
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How in the heck did you get done in 7 days what it has taken me over a year to do? ;D Great progress. Enjoying the pics and explanations as always.
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My Ashwamegh 25/2 has huge counter weights on the crankshaft.
It also has a "dip stick" on the top of the flange for the access door.
I can provide a pic if interested.
Gary
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Looking forward to your ideas on the oiling problem, there's been quite a bit of chat on the forum on that topic.
Actually I found the twin much easier to time than the single. I used the #2 piston with the WOK timing method and found that provided easy access to the insert the gear wheels, primarily because number one was at the bottom of the stroke and out of the way.
Samo
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Good work Butch! First start can always be a challenge, all the little unknowns come into play. We startup and test a lot of engines here and sometimes they just don't want to come to life. Patience and a methodical approach generally win out unless there is an error of some sort with the assembly.
dieselgman
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She is a beauty Butch! As always, good job!
dieselgman
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What a beauty, and a lovely smooth runner. Thanks for sharing your work! The issue of intake and exhaust manifolds alignment on the twin was very interesting to me...I can see now why that is a critical issue.
I was also interested to note the movement at the raised oil pressure gauge- showing very slightest rocking of crankshaft end to end- though invisible elsewhere. That would inevitable due to the long crank and separation between cylinders, right? The lack of any other visible movement was very, very impressive. The value of your flywheel matching/adjustment method is well proven again.
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Where's that link/thread to set valves by timing, vs lash ? I've got enough hours, I need to adjust valves and would like to try the timing, maybe clean up the fluffy carbon that blows through my exhaust.
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It's in the WOK at the top of the the forum home page.
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7374.0
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Looking good! I'm impressed with the balance, better than mine is it looks like. Also like the oiling modification. Can't wait to see the cooling system!
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Another awesome thread 38ac, really appreciate you taking the time.
I have a couple questions related to the twin governor linkage and balancing fuel delivery between the cylinders.
On my twin the entire governor assembly appears to be a mess - binding everywhere. The long linkage rod is nicely bowed and rubs the block in two locations and manages to hit the oil line too. I'm pretty confident that gentle persuasion is what is needed to align the parts all on the same plane but wanted to ask if you have any tips and tricks or gotchas to look out for in regards to these adjustments? Your video about making the single linkage as rigid as possible was very helpful for the 6/1, and I'm sure it is just as important here but any other twin specific insight would be great too.
For balancing fuel delivery I have seen other threads using an IR thermo to check exhaust temps and make sure they are ballpark same, are there any better ways to check or is this still the preferred means? How would they manage to get them properly sharing load across both cyls back in the day?
Many thanks
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Great explanation, thanks for walking us through the process.
When trying to bend the cast linkage components to adjust crossover rod alignment do you find heat to be helpful, or are the parts soft enough to simply work over in a vise?
And one further question - I'm sure this has been covered before but the threads on the intake and exhaust manifolds... are they BSP? And if yes is it close enough to NPT that it will work, or should they be re-tapped to NPT for convenience?
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Yes the threads are BSP and NPT fittings thread in without problem to the intake/exhaust adapters.
cheers,
Hugh
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Ok perfect, that gives plenty of options for routing. Thanks Hugh!
I'm anxious to see the cooling setup as well, but do you all think we can talk 38ac into some intake boost too? I'm sure with this crew somebody has a small turbo kicking around the shop we could collectively donate to the cause ;)
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Looks great !
What water pump are you using ?
What rpm's is it running in the video ?
Gary
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The water pump is a bronze 2 gear pump. It is running a tick under 750 RPM in the video, a speed it likes vibration wise.
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Cool application of relatively passive technology Butch! I bet that requires a fair amount of make-up water! How many BTUs do you think she'll dump with that setup?
dieselgman
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Hi 38ac, thanks for all the technical info, what a beautiful job. I`m looking forward to getting back to my build as soon as I get the go ahead from my doctor.
I saw a screen cooler like that at a local show, the owner had rigged some blue LED lights inside so the whole thing glowed with a blue haze, very cool at night.
Bob
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Congratulations on another excellent build sir, the way you have it balanced one would not guess that these engines are known for rough running.
I was set on ultimately buying an 18/1 at some point, but after seeing this I guess I might have to side with Glort, buy a 16/2 instead, and blame it on you "It's all your fault". :laugh:
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