Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: basewindow on December 03, 2017, 09:00:29 AM

Title: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 03, 2017, 09:00:29 AM
Hi all.

Can anyone identify this Bamford Stationary engine?

Have the opportunity to pick it up here in Oz but dont know much about them. Has original water tank and original cardboard operation/instruction  page. Did a quick google search but there doesn't seem to be much info or spare parts at least here in oz. Its $300.


Cheers
Cam
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: AdeV on December 04, 2017, 09:52:28 PM
Looks similar to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgR0QtnFOuo

Unfortunately the description doesn't have a model number, but I guess you could ask him on YT?
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 09, 2017, 10:00:52 AM
Ended up getting the Bamford.

Its a 3.5hp SD.

Turns over and has compression.

Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: dieselgman on December 09, 2017, 11:19:29 AM
Ended up getting the Bamford.

Its a 3.5hp SD.

Turns over and has compression.

Nice machine! 38AC on this forum seems to know a bit about these, (and also owns several). I observed one of his in operation earlier this year and it is a thing of beauty!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: BruceM on December 09, 2017, 06:08:42 PM
38ac did a great write up on a Bamford restoration here, I've been very impressed with Bamfords (and his restoration work) ever since.  I like the enclosed pushrods and the split case over the crankshaft. 

Good luck with your Bamford, BaseWindow, it's a lovely machine!

Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 09, 2017, 07:57:40 PM
Well I'll have to get onto 38ac, because i dont know much about them and dont have a workshop manual yet. Think ill start with a good cleaning (Which I've already started on the exterior ) and then crack her open and see what's inside...
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 10, 2017, 11:05:40 PM
Started on the SD today. Good external clean up, lots of old grease and oil build up. My main worry was the fuel pump having gummed up and stuck with old diesel and the injector.

Stripped off the fuel system starting at the filter, which was of course dry but in a clean and surprisingly good condition. 

Removed CAV pump and linkages. The pump rack was stiff, but after a good soaking in diesel loosened up. After a bit of gentle coaxing the bottom spring loosened and all parts began to move freely.

Injector out next. Dirty but looked ok. Again a soak in diesel and clean up.

All pipes cleaned and unblocked.

A quick check inside the crank case via the door, revealed full of oil at correct level and again in surprisingly good condition. It didnt look like 20 year old oil or sludge at all.

It actually looked like it might be a runner.

Connected all the fuel lines, pump and injector. Bled system. Pump was working as expected. After a few cranks of the priming handle i could hear a distinct injector creak. 

So i thought i may as well give it a go. In start position i got the crank spinning and switched to run. A puff of smoke from the exhaust but no start. I tried several times with the same result. The compression seems quite hard, and it only turns over once or twice before it stops once you flick it to run. It doesnt help that the original crank handle is missing and there is a welded metal job that does the trick but not well.

I havent set the fuel timing yet, so that may be an issue and i cant find any marking on the wheels, not even a direction rotation arrow.

Ran out of time to do more, but will get onto it again next week.

Attached photo of original thick cardboard working instructions.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: merkland on December 11, 2017, 10:16:46 AM
From what you describe it would appear that you have the wrong starting handle and you are turning the engine the wrong way, otherwise it should have started.

merkland.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 11, 2017, 10:25:36 AM
Well i thought that as well. Im on the injector pump side rotating clockwise, which i believed was right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I did briefly try the other side but it seemed worse.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: AdeV on December 11, 2017, 11:31:23 AM
Try squirting a couple of dollops of lube oil down the barrel. If you can make it roll through compression a couple of times with the starting handle off, then it's low on compression. It should almost be like hitting a brick wall (well, maybe not THAT severe....); I can spin my 6-1 up but if I let go the handle & knock the decompression off, it'll only roll through one compression, & bounces off the next. Also, if you can, keep cranking away at the handle* after you've disengaged the decompression. The more compression strokes you can get through, the more heat in the cylinder, the more likely you are to get it to fire.

*PS: Only do this if you've got a proper pawl mechanism on the handle, so if the engine spins faster than the handle, the crank rotates inside the handle. If they're locked together, you'll be in big sh*t if the handle's still on when it fires...
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: 38ac on December 11, 2017, 12:49:46 PM
Hi all, Somehow I missed this thread earlier.  An SD type is high on my list of wanted things but they are not to be found in the states.
You are cranking it the correct direction, clockwise on the fuel pump side. The handle can be used on either side by removing and turning the ratchet pawl in the handle. As Ade said be sure the shaft and handle are oiled. The handle should turn freely and reversed other than the click when the paw passes over the keyway.  A bit of oil in the cylinder will raise compression and help starting. A VERY SMALL amount of starting fluid will also help. DO NOT spray it in the intake at close range! Stand back a couple feet and give it a quick spray or better yet spray a small amount on a rag and have a helper hold the rag over the intake as you crank.  Parts for any Bamford engine are tough finds, I make everything I put in them. Be carefull with it and good luck.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 11, 2017, 08:08:54 PM
Thanks for the replies.

Its definitely got plenty of compression. One stroke though then bounces off the next. Pretty much like hitting a wall as you say going without the handle.

Yes unfortunately the original crank handle is gone, but has a home made welded type job which is a half circle with a lip and  handle. It does work ok but tends to come off a bit too easily once you get much momentum happening. Which I guess is a good thing, as you say if it fires up. The Lister crank handle is too small.

I'll try the oil down the barrel to see if this helps also have a look at the fuel timing.

Im going to strip it down completely anyway but just wanted to see if she ran.

I'm going to have to be careful with this one as well, because as you say  parts seem to be as rare as hens teeth over here.

I particularly liked this unit as it has history in the local area, according to the guy i got it from, being originally from a local dairy powering their lighting until mains arrived. Sold to local farmer for his farm until mains arrived.

Cheers
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 18, 2017, 09:29:30 AM
Well I really didnt get much time to work on the Bamford this weekend, but for sure that heavy beast isn't going anywhere!

Replaced the fuel line between the filter and pump as the old one was perished and leaking. Replaced the inlet to the pump with a bango fitting i had left over from the Lister rebuild, as it had a slow leak as well. Gave it a bit more of a clean.

For those in the know with these machines, there is a silver wheel on the inside of where you mount the pump which I assume is for the fuel timing? Anyone know how it goes? How many turns does it go? Which way to advance or retard? 

Cleaned up one flywheel and found some faint timing marks.

Other than that I  ran out of time,  after slashing 6 acres of paddock, which took longer than it should have after Mr. Forgetful, forgot to check the tractor fuel and ran out halfway through. Which required me walking back to the house, only about 1km, to get tools and more fuel. I intended to take the ute bsck rather than walk, only to discover it had a flat tyre. Quick change of tyre, drive down to tractor, fill and bleed fuel lines and finish what i started. It was one of those days!

Well here's a few pics anyway even though not much has changed.

Bottom pic shows the pump mount and silver coloured wheel on the side.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: Tom on December 18, 2017, 06:40:16 PM
Those Bamford engineers were masters of simplicity. Looking at the wheel in question it looks like it may be used for priming. Can the collar on the exposed end of camshaft be rotated to change timing?
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 19, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
The lever on the left side of the picture primes. I think the wheel or disc on the right is for fuel timing, just not sure exactly.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: 38ac on December 19, 2017, 12:39:47 PM
The SD is quite a bit different than the later Z types that I am familiar with so I am of little help but keep posting and pics please. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on January 01, 2018, 11:12:57 AM
A little work on the sd1 today.

Removed injector and checked spray which was fine mist and seemed ok. Put a bit of oil into cylinder as sugested.

Put a few fiber washers in varoius parts of fuel system to stop a few minor slow leaks, then bled.

Primed using lever and got good injector creak.

Removed side covers and quick check of valves and pushrods.  Gave it all a good clean and lubrication.

Gave her crank just to see. Smoke from the exhaust but no fire as yet. Will play with the fuel timing and see if this helps.

Couple of pics.

Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on April 10, 2018, 10:13:40 AM
Finally found some time to work on the Bamford today after quite a long while.

Started by stripping off all the fuel system, fuel lines, injector, pump, filter etc, quick lube and clean.

Then all ancillary items from the head, rocker lubrication panels, front, rear and side panels, and exhaust. Again quick clean.

Then put the head on the bench and had a good look.

Found a lovely old wasps nest almost completely blocking and clogging the exhaust valve outlet and exhaust. Combustion chamber pretty sooted up. Inlet value pretty clear. After a good cleaning with wire brushes and various fluids it came up pretty well and both valves, seats and springs looking good. Decided not to completely remove valve assembly at this stage as it seemed to be functioning.

Piston looked quite clean and cylinder didnít appear to have much wear or any pitting.

Drained oil. Removed all the bolts to allow the crank case to pivot, and had a quick look inside. Quite clean actually, everything well lubricated and operating smoothly.

On to the various covers Iíd removed, degrease and clean and then even a bit of paint.

Many of the bolts donít look original and some have been welded and repaired or modified. On inspection most of the brass fittings a well worn and again soldered, repaired and modified.

The pumps working well along with the injector, although the injector has a bit of pitting on the shaft.

The flywheels and associated governor system had a good clean and lube and appear functional.

At this stage everything looks to be in working order and hopefully it should only be a matter of getting the fuel and valve timing right to get her going. I hope.

Anyway plenty more cleaning and painting to go before she goes back together.

Last photo silver wheel/disc on the side of the fuel pump mount, advances/retards fuel timing, but which way?
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on April 10, 2018, 10:31:07 AM
She's all back together and 95% painted etc. BUT......

Somethings not right. Am I losing the plot here?

Just to confirm things per the first picture attachment, when looking at the bamford side on with the Start/Run handle on the left, this it the intake valve side correct? And conversely the Exhaust value is on the right.

We spin the flywheel clockwise.

If I interpret the markings on the picture of another originl flywheel from another member correctly its EC marking is to the left of TDC in that picture and the IO is to the right of TDC. About 145mm either side.

As mine doesnt appear to have the markings I marked them on the wheel spinning clockwise. EC - Exhaust valve closed completely. IO - Intake valve begins to open. They are both about 75mm either side of TDC. About half the distance of the original.

It was then I realised mine were the complete opposite per the second pic.

Am I missing something here??
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 08, 2018, 09:08:42 PM
Well finally some time to get out out in the shed and on the Bamford.

Pretty much started from scratch checking things over and making sure all seemed ok.

As a last resort i connected it up to my Lister CS and got some starter spray.

And what do you know, after a few puffs, she kicked into action and ran. Bit like a hit and miss engine at first but then it settled.

Disconnected it from the Lister and she ran on her own. Let it go for about two minutes and then shut her down.

Tried to hand crank her again but with no success.

Using the Lister again she started and ran again. Shut the fuel off for a while and before she lost too many revs opened it again and she continued to fire and run.

After about another two minutes or so i shut her down. Cranking by hand again was no start, but at least I know she goes.

Guessing fuel spill timing and or valve timing. Any other thoughts?
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: mikenash on December 09, 2018, 04:42:03 AM
Good work there.  I wonder what your compression is like?  If it sat for a while some of those rings might be stuck in their grooves?  Just a thought.  Good luck
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: mike90045 on December 09, 2018, 06:56:03 AM
I too, am thinking compression.  Having a good stout pony engine to spin it enough to light it off is good.

  Several points to loose compression, rings or valves
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: ajaffa1 on December 09, 2018, 07:50:45 AM
Just a couple of thoughts, if you can get it running and up to temperature you could probably do a bit of a running de-coke by squirting some water into the air intake, if you give it too much it will bog down. Might be enough to clean the exhaust valve and improve compression. Another idea would be to run some injector cleaning fluid in a liter of fuel, a poor spray pattern can make an engine hard to start.

Is there an adjuster on the de-compression lever? Could be that the valve isn`t closing fully or that the valve tappet clearance is too small.

I`d be very tempted to load it up with something (maybe your CS) and then give it a good run.

Bob
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: ajaffa1 on December 09, 2018, 08:05:58 AM
Further to my previous post, I wonder what the pop pressure is on the injector, probably hasn`t been checked for fifty or sixty years and springs weaken with age.

Bob
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 09, 2018, 09:30:55 PM
Thanks for the replies and suggestions, its all helpfull.

A little more progress after a bit more tinkering yesterday with valve clearances and  fuel timing. Really just trying different settings, dont know what the valve clearances should be and same with the fuel timing adjuster.

Got the apprentices apprentice(Wife), to give her a dose of spray as I hand cranked (got her spinning pretty fast) AND made sure I gave the priming handle a dozen or so goes beforehand. She burst into life no worries. Let it run again for 2 or 3 minutes and shut her off. A little white smoke at start but none after.

A minute or so later I hand cranked again without starter spray and she fired ok. Looks positive. Guess its been 20 to 30 years since its run so, fair enough that she's taking a while to settle back into life.

Still not running smoothly but thinking that might be a governor issue.
Governor system and weights are external on the flywheel and were struck solid previously. I have unfrozen them and given it good lubrication, but I think they are still not moving freely enough or adjusted correctly. More playing and experimentation needed. Have some more enthusiasm and motivation now Im seeing smoke.

I'll post some pics and maybe a vid next week.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: mike90045 on December 10, 2018, 07:01:40 AM
go real easy on the starter spray.  It can (and has) blow an engine.  Put water in so you can run it, and let it run for a while, see if things will loosen up.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 10, 2018, 07:52:45 AM
Thanks Mike, I know about the starter spray issues and only used  it as a last resort. Now I know she runs I'll stay away from the stuff.
It will be all shoulder and arm work from now on or use another engine if I have to.
Yep when I get some water connections sorted I'll put a tank on it and give it a good run.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: ajaffa1 on December 10, 2018, 08:33:09 AM
Well done Basewindow, looks like you are making progress. There is a Bamford enthusiasts site in the UK don`t know if they can help you with specs or manuals but they do offer a dating facility: https://henrybamfordandsonsuttoxeterengland.co.uk/

Bob
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 10, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
Not looking for a relationship with the Bamford quite yet ajaffa1, but I'll keep it in mind if the wife ever leaves me. She does have a nice new paint job tho. The Bamford that is, not the wife. ;D😆
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: 38ac on December 10, 2018, 05:36:08 PM
With everything, fuel and compression related up to snuff it should start on the first compression down to at least 40F,maybe colder. I am certain that in the Z series manual it states that they will start from cold down to "X" temp.   Sometimes when they have sat  for years all it takes is a bit of running and they will fix themselves but my experience is that if doesn't happen quickly it doesn't happen at all. 
When I have run into your situation the process of elimination is this and after each step you check starting from cold.
A-Listen for leaks from the valves under compression.
B-Run it for 15 minutes or so.
C-Check injection timing
D-Check injector for pop off pressure and pattern
E-Remove head and set squish or bump as they say.
F- Remove piston and rod and Check condition of bearing, rings and top ring land.

Every Bamford diesel I have been into (which is only 4) has started hard and when I got into them it was due either large squish from bad con rod bearing and/or worn crankshaft or top ring lands that were worn badly. Squish it set via shims under the head gasket, if your lucky there will be several left, if not it gets into real money quickly as I said earlier, off the shelf parts do not exist.




Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on December 19, 2018, 10:53:55 PM
Video link to youtube.

https://youtu.be/hUJXb6-WZt4

Takes 3 attempts to start.

Then a quick view running.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Cam.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on February 02, 2019, 10:19:54 AM

Pretty much the last update on the BAMFORD SD1 3.5HP. Seems the starting issues are beginning to resolve themselves as time goes on. Also seems there is a bit if technique involved with the first start. Maybe I'm just used to the relatively easy start of the Lister CS. Overall I'm pretty happy with the result. A couple of before and after pics. Thanks all for you help and suggestions,.


 
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: mikenash on February 02, 2019, 06:04:06 PM
Looks really good Cam - a great bit of work!
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: BruceM on February 02, 2019, 06:09:17 PM
She looks great,  I have a fondness for Bamfords since 38ac did a project engine for the forum.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: 38ac on February 02, 2019, 10:15:57 PM
 Yup, looking great. I'd love to have an SD type.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: glort on February 03, 2019, 01:24:46 AM

Thoughts?

Looks like you did a brilliant job on it . Really nice with all the original stickers as well.

I wonder if you are priming the thing before you start it too much or too little.  I have found with a lot of engines there is a sweet spot on them.

I was having trouble getting a new 2 stroke Brushcutter started. I pride myself on setting up 2 strokes to start first pull but this one had me about ready to pulverize it.  Set the carb a heap of times and it ran perfect but starting was more frustrating than I could stand.  Turns out the thing does not want any priming with the swueze bulb and one pull with the choke on and the next with it off and it fires right up.

All of my diesels start very easy but I have come across those that can virtually flood and then have very hard starts.

I'd experiment with the priming and don't pay too much attention to any manufacturers instructions. They have lead me well astray.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: basewindow on February 04, 2019, 08:30:13 PM
Yes, in the video, I was priming it quite a bit, and as you say I think too much.  Seems now I just prime it so I can heard the injector creak, also the oiling cup, needs to be primed to get some oil down into it (Somehow when I had the head off and was cleaning it up, I missed this and it was blocked), then once cranking it needs a few more turns after the decompression lever is dropped. You can feel it wanting to start and if you give it a few more turns to help it along it will now normally start first or second time. Once its started the first time for the day, its usually pretty easy after that. As you say, seems just to be a matter of working out the best procedure and technique for yours and generally disregard whats in the manual.
From what I have read the Bamford SD are notoriously difficult starters.
The decals I got from Rally Badges Online. Was looking for some for the Lister CS originally,  thinking there would be nothing for the Bamford, but sure enough, they had some. From what I can tell it looks pretty original.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: glort on February 04, 2019, 11:28:07 PM

 Once its started the first time for the day, its usually pretty easy after that.

I have know a few exactly the same.
Had a Mercedes running on veg oil and that first start was a night mare.  You could drive it 10 min, leave it 12 hours, come back and it would fire up without fuss.  A few times when I had to be places I'd start it before I went to bed and then again during the night.  Fired in the morning OK then.

Tried everything to fix the problem thinking the fuel must be draining back to the tank or something but the only thing that got around it was  Throwing some Methanol/ Meth spirits down the inlet then firing it.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: BruceM on February 05, 2019, 03:34:00 AM
On the MB 300D engine, the valve clearances and timing are reportedly critical to good starting in cold weather.  I wasn't convinced until my cold starting improved dramatically after putting in an offset key to compensate for chain stretch, and re-timing the IP.  I need to adjust the valves again, I've got one cylinder that's no catching when it's cold.

I'm not sure how veggie oil might affect that, but since it's fussy on dino...

Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: glort on February 05, 2019, 07:13:54 AM

I was always on top of the valve clearances.
made a hell of a difference to the way they ran.  I remember doing a mates valves and I couldn't figure how the thing ran. They were that far out I was thinking the ajuster was broken or something. Just when I was about to give up after about a dozen checks they came good.

Other thing was the throttle linkages. on this car he was getting about 50% throttle. I told him they were out but he was adamant that was how they were from the factory.  He went to get his kid from school and I did them while he was gone and said nothing.  When he came back and took it for a drive  he didn't get 6 houses down the street and said to me, You did the linkages Didn't you? I said yes. Time we came back he said the thing has never gone like that before.  Wonder why?

People made a big fun of doing the valves but I got some cheap spanners, ground them down and bent them and even welded handles on them and had no trouble.

Retiming the thing with the chain stretch and the IP timing would make a big difference. So many little things adding up as they get older.
Another guy I knew rebuilt this one he had. Wasn't a turbo but geez it went like one. this thing had grunt unlike any other OM617 I have ever been in.

I would like to find another 300D in decent nick and turbo it.
Title: Re: Identify this Bamford?
Post by: BruceM on February 05, 2019, 08:57:38 AM
Almost all the 300D's stateside US are turbo'd. I didn't do it, but cranking up the turbo boost pressure and defeating the over pressure valve is supposed to have the go like a scalded cat, till the engine burns up if you don't back off.  Without the turbo at 5600ft it's pedal to the floor at all times unless stopping, dog. 

I got my hands on one that had a virgin ALDA, the altitude IP adjust.  Over time the baro bellows get weak and the mix gets too lean at altitude.   Popped the factory plastic seal and riched up the fuel mixture till it would leave a little black in the exhaust if you flat out stomped on it. That sure is a performance changer. 

They are getting hard to find in good condition these days.  I've got my '85 300D driver and a parts car with a good tranny and a bad injection pump.  Every year it loses a few more bits.