Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: BruceM on October 19, 2017, 02:06:40 AM

Title: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 19, 2017, 02:06:40 AM
Thanks to 38ac I got connected with another member Robert Leonard, who had some SOM flywheels for sale.  Bob did a great job of securing them to a sturdy pallet and getting them loaded on my freight carrier 8 days ago.  Today I picked them up at my local helpful Ace Hardware.

They are now on my shop apron ready for some clean up and new paint! They are a bit shocking to a someone only familiar with Rajkot castings; there are no voids, putty, bondo!

I'd like advice on your favorite rust treatment that does not involve Rustoleum type oil based paint.  I just can't stand the stink of it. I'm thinking sand and wire brush, naval jelly, then paint. I'm in AZ, USA, so continued rusting is not a big issue, I'm just proud of them so want to pretty them up a bit.

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: broncodriver99 on October 19, 2017, 04:32:03 AM
Those should make for a nice upgrade. They really are nice chunks of iron aren't they. Mine are sitting in the floor and look much like those, just waiting to be stripped and painted.

As far as a coating I settled on a single stage urethane paint. Urethane is pretty stinky and a respirator should be worn but most any decent coating is going to be. Most are brush-able if you don't have spray capabilities. Or, I think Eastwood makes some urethane paints in aerosol form. I have seen a few CS on youtube where the outer rim was left unpainted and clear coated. Looks like a nice detail to showcase the cast iron and makes the serial number and ignition/timing marks easier to read.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: 32 coupe on October 19, 2017, 04:36:02 AM
Wow Bruce,
I am happy to see you finally found a pair !

I am sure many of us are anxious to see how they work out for you.


Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: Samo on October 19, 2017, 07:51:45 AM
Nice wheels. In my case after cleaning, de-greasing, I used an etch primer then sprayed 1K enamel in mid-brunswick green. I don't think the 1K paints are too bad, there's certainly more toxic paints out there. Still I wear long sleeves, goggles and a mask just to be on the safe side! 

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: AdeV on October 19, 2017, 10:59:46 AM
AZ? Any old paint will do - so long as it's mid-Brunswick Green  :laugh: and can be applied smoothly (no brushes! unless it's coach paint...) Hell, you'd get away with no paint at all most likely!

I'd use cellulose based paint myself, 'cos I'm old school, and because I don't have a 2-pack setup.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 19, 2017, 03:28:25 PM
Thanks for the prep and finish suggestions. Green she shall be.  Ade's right- it doesn't take much for our environment here in AZ. I have unfinished angle iron bits on my engine for sensors, pneumatic actuators and such, and an oily rag wipe down occasionally is enough to keep them rust free. 

It sure is going to be interesting trying to match these flywheels to match per 38ac's method.  Piece of cake when you can readily lift the flywheel by hand, quite a bit more serious with these monsters.  I will go slow.

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: Tom on October 19, 2017, 05:38:27 PM
The easiest way to clean them might be to take them to a local engine rebuilder and have them hot tanked. Nice find.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 19, 2017, 07:27:25 PM
Tom, I think you're right-  I've seen the before and after photos of hot tanked parts here recently and it's amazing what a good job that does.  Alas,  I'm so rural that it's not so practical for me. Local shops only have solvent tanks for smaller parts.

I couldn't resist giving the flywheels some attention by hand this morning; a few hours with 80 grit discs on a  5" air palm sander, and a drill- drum sander inside the cutouts, and some pressure washing. They cleaned up very nicely.  Myself and my clothes are another matter.

I think I'll going to use Bronco's suggestion and NOT paint the outer rims- until after they are installed. That way I can roll them about - which is the easiest way to move them.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: glort on October 20, 2017, 01:25:14 AM

Sandblast them and apply a good coat of clean veg oil.  DONE!

It's all about "Patina" now days anyhow so maybe leave them out in the rain between the sand blast and the oiling to give them a nice surface rust and then hold that with the oil.

I have been using veg as a rust preventative for years. Never seems to need re doing for things out of the weather, needs a recoat every couple of years for things outside but still must get into the metal a bit because you only get a very light surface rust even when the oil goes hard and flakes off.
If you want to turn mild steel in to something as corrosion resistant as stainless, heat it red hot and quench.  Done that with a few rough tools I have played blacksmith on and they live outside and never get rusty after years of weather exposure.

No, those wheels are not too big to get red hot,  I can show you how to build an oil burner to get those wheels or the whole engine red hot in under an hour, probably 30 min!  :0)

Was at the paint shop the other day with the Mrs. You can buy rust look paint now and it's freaking expensive.
Mrs liked the look for a feature wall till I saw the price and realised I could to the same wall in 1/4" steel plate with real rust cheaper than painting the gyprock!

I have seen a lot of engines on the net and at shows that are dirty and grimy and I wouldn't change them should I be lucky enough to own them. Matter of fact, I'd be careful about disturbing the decades of built up grot.  Somehow, to me anyway, it seems to honor and pay testament to these old treasures.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: xyzer on October 20, 2017, 02:43:19 AM
Bruce..Are they from a Lister 6/1 going on Listeroid? If so I bet it will be minor tuning.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 20, 2017, 03:01:26 AM
Hi Dave,
Yes, 6/1 SOM wheels on a 6/1 Listeroid.  I will match the balance but agree not likely to be off much.

I've seen the patina look Glort mentions- someone used some stove black and had a great looking show (or working) engine. Vegetable oil, oxidized, makes that coating that works so well on cast iron skillets and griddles. Only soap or detergent ruins it. 

Alas, patina on a Rajkot Listeroid engine seems an odd mix, so I painted the wheels Lister green this afternoon when the rain stopped.  I'm going to give the engine a bit of a touch up  and give my original wood ''temporary test'' base a coat as well. It really has held up nicely but since I've got extra paint I'll doll it up.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: dieselspanner on October 20, 2017, 08:05:40 AM
I painted my CS with Lidl's (A German based pan European supermarket chain that sells all sorts of stuff on weekly offers, paint comes up a couple of times a year) spray cans in a sort of Brunswick green.

It comes up like Hammerite Smoothrite, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a a similar composition with a different solvent.

It's around 3 euros a can (I used around 8 on the CS and after 3 years it's still looking good) and when it comes around I buy loads of black and grey for doing odd jobs, brackets and the like.

Cheap, that's me!

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: 38ac on October 20, 2017, 11:42:07 AM
Glad everything worked out for them. Be extra careful that your gibb keys are well fitted as the extra "smoothing" forces the heavy 'wheels  provide is  transmitted through those gibb keys and the friction fit to the shaft that they provide.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: cujet on October 20, 2017, 12:47:25 PM
Interesting looking flywheels. I've never actually looked at SOM flywheels. Cool balance methodology. Post more pics!
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 20, 2017, 07:57:28 PM
One of those du-oh, moments this morning.  Flywheels look great, set up my stands for balancing and then noticed- no ground clearance for the wheel bottom.  Oops.  The SOM flywheels are 25 inches diameter, not the 23 1/2 of my spoke'd wheels. This will require modification of the base- not quite enough clearance for the belt on flywheel and a new 9 inch generator pulley and belt. I'd likely have to change to a single B belt instead of serpentine to get the right diameter generator pulley unless a 9" serpentine pulley is common. 

I'll have to ponder it and study the costs for a while, but I may postpone the upgrade to SOM wheels until I'm ready ($) for the propane conversion, which increases engine speed to 824 rpm. I'll need new pulleys and B belts for both generator and air compressor for that.  I can manage diesel fuel hauling and transfer now but want to be prepared.

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: glort on October 20, 2017, 10:24:41 PM
but I may postpone the upgrade to SOM wheels until I'm ready ($) for the propane conversion, which increases engine speed to 824 rpm.

What the heck is this obsession Americans have with converting engines to pro paaane?
Weren't you a vegger Bruce?  Why would you want to convert a Diesel engine to gas ? Is this going to be a daily runner or something to have on standby?
I was of the understanding that you can get engines ready for LPG off the shelf there.
If I was in the US, I'd be looking for one of those awesome Arrow oilfield engines. Designed and setup to run on gas and run 24/7 for years. They seem a very over looked engine.

As far as the speed goes, why does the engine have to run faster? Can't you just turn down the Governor? LPG has a Higher compression potential so does that not neutralize the power loss through the lower calorific value of the gas?? You could always Turbo or supercharge the thing!  :0)
AMR make perfectly suited little blowers that should be easy to pick up.

A while back, Many of the go fast car guys were getting into LPG ( as we call Pro Paaane here). It's the cheapest Fuel, they could run much higher compression  and Gas does not have emission regs so they could run all the go fast bits and still be legal.  Normaly seen as a fuel for economy and used by every Taxi Cab in the country, Guys were making some BIG power on LPG and had the added bonus of cool induction temps as well.

Now it seems that E-85 is the go fast fuel of the moment.  Certainly has benefits in that you can just put in an aftermarket computer and fill the regular tank and you are good to go. Still only sparsely available though.  There is a guy that comes into the wrecking yard with a WRX that drives over 100KM to get it because there is none available in his town. Has a boot full , literally , of Jerry cans.  I'm not a safety Sissy but carrying 160L of fuel in the boot over 100Km is something I'd be wary of and flat out wouldn't do it in this car.  I have seen how hodge podge everything is built. Scared the crap out of me when he opened the boot and showed me.  One bit of vapor buildup, one spark..... Yikes!
 Given the amount he pours through the thing, I think he's getting about 5 MPG out of it.
Some of these guys might be good with engines but they ain't too bright over all!

Serpentine pulleys here are not popular. You can get them from the industrial suppliers but are nearly always special order and cost a freaking bomb.
I gave my brother in law one last week to set up for me. It's actually a harmonic balancer out of a car but he is going to bore it to size for me so I can put it on a 3/4 Shaft.  Hopefully he keys or tapps it for a screw, forgot to ask about that.  This was about 5". Don't know where you might find a 9.  I wonder if truck engines use Micro groove belts at all?
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 21, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
I didn't overlook the Arrow engines, just fell over when I read the price.  They don't come on the used market.  I've already done a DES 8/1 CS conversion to propane for my also disabled neighbor's off grid home (making it a 6/1 in terms of power), which is working very well.  He also has the dual purpose air compressor/generator. We use air tools and motors on a big 500 gallon air tank instead of electric.

I'm off grid so regular use is the norm, and I just can't tolerate the sound of 3600 rpm engines, or I'd use one for generator and one for air compressor.

I'm having periods of not being able to drive safely from MS acute vertigo and vision issues, among others. So a fuel that's delivered and requires no handling is a big plus might be a big plus for my independence.  I use about 5 gallons of diesel fuel a month.  I've been reluctant to modify my nicely working diesel setup. 

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: glort on October 21, 2017, 09:33:19 AM

Makes sense.

Surprised the arrows aren't available. I would have thought being US made and for so long they would have been around.

What does gas cost there delivered?  Have you any idea what sort of consumption you will have KWH or otherwise with it? Does your neighbour keep any records?

Are used solar panels available where you are?  Might be able to help with supplying power.
I'm trying to find a cheap if not overly efficient setup for heating water with an electric heater. I keep reading of simple controllers out there but buggered if I can find the schematics for one.  The commercial ones I think are all over the top.  I'd like to do something DIY but atm looks like the most practical way might be a couple of small batteries to keep a charger and inverter happy and run a PWM controller from the inverter to limit the current to the element.  Should be a way to do that with an arduino that will maintain voltage on the batteries but I can't find anything and not up to designing it.

ATM my test setup which is sitting on the back lawn is getting me 20-26 KWH a day which I'm happy with.  On a few sunny days the meter i'm backfeeding  goes backwards. haven't got to using the AC much yet but still, if the solar neutralized most of the bill I'd be happy.

I would like to get the lister set up to be able to backfeed from that as well.
So many things to do before hand though.

I hope you give us a running update on your conversion. 
BTW, Have you ever thought of Biogas?  Seems to be fairly easy to do and in the warmer months at least could help reduce your bottled gas usage.
I'll have to give that a Crack myself.

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: carlb23 on October 21, 2017, 01:30:24 PM
I run my unmodified listeroid 6/1 as a hybrid using aprox  10% diesel and 90% natural gas with only a needle valve to adjust the natural gas flow and let the governor adjust the diesel.  I have it set up so only enough diesel is injected at an no load and enough natural gas at a 1800 watt  load to keep the governor from injecting anymore diesel.  If the load goes over 1800 watts the governor just injects more diesel.   Simple and effective
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: TxBlacksmith on October 21, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
Actually, the oilfield engines do show up, they just have a steep price.  Here are two near me, that if I had a place to put them, I would have bought one or both. (

and a nice big one (

They have been for sale several months here in Texas...
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 21, 2017, 05:30:12 PM
Carl's NG setup is marvelous- simple, effective.  Alas no NG out here in the sticks.

Propane can't be run that way, you're limited to about 25% propane.  Carb and regulator for propane run about $220., a bargain compared to an Arrow engine. Other mods are a 1/2" spacer of aluminum under the cylinder to lower compression, hardened valve seats in the head, a black pipe adapter for the spark plug to fit in the injector hole and clamp, and lengthening the shorter pushrod a few inches. Plus hall sensors and circuit to trigger an auto spark module, long reach spark plug, spark module mount, wiring, etc.  And an adapter to mount the carb on the intake manifold and a minor mod to the governor arm and new linkage. It is a project- and makes me appreciate Carl's setup.

I'm presently at just 875 watts of PV panels for my 120VDC power system. PV is so cheap now it's shocking.  I have to upgrade my PV system to add 5 more 24v panels for my new low EMI inverter design; I'll be adding another 1500 watts  so that the well pump (1200 watts) or washing machine (1100 watts) can be used during the day or carry new panels cheap.  Locally used panels are a joke- new panels are cheaper.  I designed a new seasonal tilt ground mount rack of angle iron that ran about $300 in steel and welding for my new neighbor; I'll use that design instead of my $150 original as it allows one person to do the seasonal tilt. We have wind gusts over 100 mph every spring so I  used 1" EMT braces from the top of the 33%  cantilevered rack.

Glort, for your electric water heater, I'd suggest going direct DC to the element; use a water heater thermostat to control a solid state relay, or make one with a surplus IGBT module switching the low side.  Put your panels in series to get the voltage you need under load.  Screw in replacement elements for 240 and 120v at various wattages are common here.  You must use dc rated breakers, and properly rated solid state relays-  AC rated stuff will melt down the first time you try to turn it off.  It might be convenient to isolate one of the elements or add a whole hot water heater (plumbed as pre-heater) to be your solar heater. All that electronic conversion to AC, and batteries are just not needed, and you'll have much better efficiency.

I hurt my left leg last night- one of the flywheels tipped over when going over the concrete lip into the shop at an angle and got me.  I was getting too cocky rolling them around.  Scrape and monster swelling on my shin dinner (couldn't stay upright) and not much sleep.  Swelling better today, and I can stand for a short while.  Living alone is very peaceful but occasionally has it's downsides.

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: glort on October 21, 2017, 10:50:58 PM

The conversion sure sounds like a lot of work but you know what you are doing so that's a huge plus.

I'd like to see and hear more about your tilting rack. Just about to put 5Kw of solar on my shed roof and being at only 5o when I need almost 35, I'm going to have to build something to put them on.
I'll start/ revive a thread on the solar.

Hope your leg recovers. Sounds like it got you good. Take it easy and rest up.
 It's things like that which make living alone dangerous. Always worried about my Dad on his property, especially when I can't keep him off his beloved tractor.  Does far too much on that bloody thing he shouldn't and a simple thing can turn to a real situation in the blink of an eye with those. 
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: Samo on October 22, 2017, 02:14:08 AM
Take care of yourself Bruce, we selfishly want to read more on your progress!
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: listard-jp2 on October 22, 2017, 09:00:50 AM
Thanks to 38ac I got connected with another member Robert Leonard, who had some SOM flywheels for sale.

Actually these are not a set of SOM flywheels, as one of them is missing the 'B' section Vee belt grooves around the flywheel rim. Otherwise a nice addition to a Lister CS engine that will greatly reduce the cyclic irregularity associated with the spoked flywheels
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: AdeV on October 23, 2017, 08:08:20 AM
Ouch Bruce! I know that pain (I fell off a tail-lift van once and scraped a decent chunk of skin off my shin - still got the scars 10 years later). Keep a close eye on how it's healing - any hint of an infection, get yourself off to the quack smartish. I know a guy who had to have his leg amputated below the knee following a nasty shin injury, it got infected & never healed, just got worse & worse despite medical intervention.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: glort on October 23, 2017, 12:53:36 PM
I know a guy who had to have his leg amputated below the knee following a nasty shin injury, it got infected & never healed, just got worse & worse despite medical intervention.

I had an Aunt like that.
Had a minor fall in the street and cut her leg. 6 Months later after going to the quack and that's absoloutley what he was, she has a hole in her leg you could put a golfball half way in. Her doc was saying if it didn't get better soon she would have to have her leg off. It had got progressively worse from the time she did it.

I went to visit her one weekend and she was distressed now being barely able to walk. I couldn't understand how a simple cut on the leg got this bad seeing she had nothing else much wrong with her.  After stewing on it for a while and seeing how it was getting to her I put her in the car with the stuff she had been treating the wound with as prescribed by the quack and took her to the hospital.  They looked at the leg and next thing people are coming from everywhere.  Showed her what she had been given and the Docs are asking why the hell she is using this stuff on it? It was useless and not for this sort of injury or would do anything for the growing infection.  They were not impressed with the story that was what she had been prescribed by the quack.

They treated the wound and arranged for the community nurse to come round every day for a fortnight to clean and dress it.  A month later it was healed.  I was amazed the flesh seemed to grow back and fill the hole but it mostly did, just a little divot remaining.
I made her promise me never to go back to that quack again and it took little convincing her.  The new doc improved her health overall quite a bit after changing a lot of her meds.

I was only in my mid '20s then but it sure taught me not to take doctors as gods and it was never out of place to question them and get second opinions.
That position has only been strengthened over the years.

If something doesn't get better, go see someone else about it.
Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: BruceM on October 23, 2017, 06:49:47 PM
Good and timely advice, AdeV, thanks.

I was alarmed late yesterday to have my lower leg hurt again nearly as much as the first night.  I had been wrapping it in a compression bandage and just trying to limp through my day, meals, laundry and such, setting new blades in my jointer-planer.

So last night I stacked pillows to elevate the thing.  Hurts less this morning, swelling down a little.  I'm going to have to keep it up a lot more, and take it a lot easier instead of bulling through. Sitting seems to be the worst- so no more computer today.  More reading in bed...  I've had about 3 lifetimes of that. 

Title: Re: SOM flywheel upgrade!
Post by: sinna42 on December 11, 2019, 09:55:08 AM
Hi BruceM,

I know this is an old post, but I thought I'd post anyway !

I've recently acquired a Lister CS 12/2 genset.
Last night I managed to get the very heavy, as you'll know, flywheels off the engine.

I'm sure you noticed that the flywheels you have are not the same in that the keyway is opposite to the hole on one & in line with the other !
I'll guess these are therefore from a 12/2 engine as they are the same as mine.
On a 6/1 SOM the holes should be in line with each other & therefore keyed the same.

See pics attached that show my 12/2 & a stock photo of a 6/1.