Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: starfire on August 24, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
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Yesterday had another CS 3.5 delivered !!! Im pretty excited about this one, its complete and after a check over and oil change, it ran very nicely. Today I washed it down with copious quantities of diesel, inside and out, and attacked it viciously with the water blaster. The big end is perfect, the first thing to look at in my experience when the sump arrives full of grungy tar. The injector pump has a tight spot, the original snake fuel filter has decomposed, but other than that shes a wee honey. its a late model, one of the last 3 1/2s built in 1948 I believe.
Tomorrow Ill blow over a coat of green to tidy her up, have a base to weld up, and hump it into position next to the Petter, it will do as a backup. I was told it has a copper home made head gasket, this will need checking to see the clearance, given any absence of knocking, Im assuming its probably ok. These I believe are the rarest of the CS Listers, and the spoked flywheels are certainly the nicest looking in my opinion.
Well, pics never happened. Photobucket has died, and the suggested photo host on here, coppermine??? keeps asking for a global password??? What the hell is that? Tried attaching, that dont work for me either. My life is obviously a mess.
So, no pics sorry.
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OH, it did work. I am redeemed. Heres more then.
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looks like its a one pic at a time?
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The brass plaque in the last photo warns of using "residual" fuels rather than distillate..... techy way of saying no waste oil i guess. I will polish it up prior to ignoring it.
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Restrictions: 4 per post, maximum total size 4096KB, maximum individual size 1024KB
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Starfire, with all due respect, you suck suck suck suck. I will never own even one original lister,they are above my pay grade, and you Sir, seem to find them everywhere! Did I mention that you, Oh! Yes I did! Never mind because I suspect that you already know.
Ron.
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Sorry Ron, I have to "tolerate" the old original genuine Listers as we have no access to the Indian "fakes". Ideally, these very old genuine versions should have a chain welded to them so they can be used as mooring anchors at sea, or simply melted down to make something more useful. Unfortunately Im unable to do either, so am literally forced to replenish the fluids and run them as intended.
Please forgive the following pic, notice how I had no option into wasting time and money on this old thing....
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Exactly!
All these blokes whining about the free casting sand they get with every engine, unheeding of the almost limit opportunities for fettling castings and the chance to spray both inside and out of the engine before sorting out the flywheels, balancing the crank, fine tuning governor and fuel system get on my pip!
Like you good self I've struggled to keep an 80 year old lump of cast iron from turning into a highly magnetised machine that attracts money, time and effort which is only repaid with the chance to post on a forum like this, where one realises that one is not alone.................
Stef
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The brass plaque in the last photo warns of using "residual" fuels rather than distillate..... techy way of saying no waste oil i guess. I will polish it up prior to ignoring it.
Well done that man. FWIW I have a complete bottom end for one of these in my yard
No idea of condition or if you need bits . . .
Cheers, mike
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It's a shame that you fellahs have to tolerate all those clunky Lister originals, while we bask in the glory of advanced Indian technology. Why, the metallic greenish/blue paint alone is enough to start a man bragging!
Very nice find........please keep us up to date.
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Thanks George and Stef. Yes, its very annoying having this junk dumped on me like that.
Next fine day Ill give it a run and link a video. Im tossing up whether to fit a radiator with electric fan, or a cooling tower. An integrated exhaust too would make it a self contained compact unit
Mike, thanks too. I believe your 3.5 crankcase will happily accept the 5 hp top end, so it may still be useful to you. The 3.5 cylinder head is unique, but I do know the injector, pump etc are the same and interchangeable with the bigger models , probably just adjusted differently. My AV1/ AV2 Petter fuel components are Bryce, but a quick look suggests they too would be interchangeable with the Bosch and/or CAV as fitted to Listers. I suspect the different manufacturers of fuel components had an agreement to make these compatible form factors and engine manufacturers chose on price?
Now, here is a question. I noticed on this engine a brass bung immediately left of the valve lifters. It has OIL written in the top. What is this and what does it oil? Im assuming it is to be unscrewed and oil squirted in? Never ever noticed it before.
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That plug provides the all-important access to your camshaft end bushing that otherwise gets very little lubrication. On all new startups or in cases where the unit has been out of service for a time, that plug must be removed and oil squirted onto the camshaft bush.
dieselgman
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A point to note....
My 6/1 stared life as a hopper cooled 3.5/1 according to the ID plate. I acquired it with a larger cylinder and head, in perfect non running condition.
I rebuilt it, with a few Indian spares, just to see what I was missing, and it leaped about all over the place.
I did the balancing thing, it seemed to need a lot of extra weight, can't remember how much now, so I sent for an alloy 8/1 piston, it's really smooth now, at around 600 / 650 rpm, with no extra weights.I'm sure you've all been glued top my Youtube vid. with the can of oil balancing on the rocker cover ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js3zz6CECqY&feature=youtu.be for those who missed it)
Anyway I'm sure there's a difference between 3.5 and 6hp flywheels, when you consider the extra metal in the larger piston there must be.
So be aware if you decide to 'Big Up' you spare bottom end, Mike!
Cheers Stef
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A point to note....
My 6/1 stared life as a hopper cooled 3.5/1 according to the ID plate. I acquired it with a larger cylinder and head, in perfect non running condition.
I rebuilt it, with a few Indian spares, just to see what I was missing, and it leaped about all over the place.
I did the balancing thing, it seemed to need a lot of extra weight, can't remember how much now, so I sent for an alloy 8/1 piston, it's really smooth now, at around 600 / 650 rpm, with no extra weights.I'm sure you've all been glued top my Youtube vid. with the can of oil balancing on the rocker cover ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js3zz6CECqY&feature=youtu.be for those who missed it)
Anyway I'm sure there's a difference between 3.5 and 6hp flywheels, when you consider the extra metal in the larger piston there must be.
So be aware if you decide to 'Big Up' you spare bottom end, Mike!
Cheers Stef
G'day Stef
Yep, that smooth-running video is impressive
I bought the 3.5/1 wearing a truck piston which had allegedly been machined at the top to get the squish right and which came with 15 years worth of rainwater in the cylinder. A mate took the head as a spare for his project and I just hung onto the bottom end thinking the crank might serve someone one day
I have two "project" 6/1s and a work-in-progress property out in the sticks where I have just been building a concrete-and-steel base for one of them, around which I will need to build an engine room.
One of the Dursley 6/1s has an Indian head and seems to run quite happily like that. I'm planning on sticking with the 6/1s as there are spares available. I had a 12/2 but sold it in the end, liking the simplicity of the singles more
There is a 5kVa ST-type head, a 28VDC generator, a couple of big 12VDC Leece Neville truck alternators and a 24VDC alternator all sitting in the barn waiting for me to find ways to drive some of them off the CS
No shortage of stuff to do when i get a weekend . . .
Thanks, Guys
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A short run after filling with nice clean oil and bleeding the fuel system. I am always amazed just how easy these start, even sitting in the rain after a miserable cold night. The injector pump needs dismantling, it seems only to operate over part of its range, suspect it has been assembled slightly wrong at some stage. I didnt try the official Stef baked bean can test as its sitting on stony non level ground, and thats unfair.
https://youtu.be/9CGjKAjav-Y
A quick video....
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Starfire, you mentioned a fan............I built my Listeroid into a 2500 watt generator for standby use and it fills that role admirably. I used a radiator from another power unit as it had enough capacity for thermo-siphon, but I also mounted a 110 volt high speed fan behind it. The fan is a larger version of a computer muffin fan and was salvaged from a microwave radio transmitter that was being junked where I worked, in fact I got two....one for a spare. A couple of brackets centered it on the backside of the radiator.
The fan has an ordinary cord/plug and plugs into one of the four outlets I installed on the unit. Very little parasitic drag, but DEFINITELY helps the cooling on long runs as proven in our latest power outage.
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I have a similar setup on the Petter, using a 12 volt car radiator fan connected to the 12 volt outlet of the alternator. Like yours, the fan neatly comes on automagically only when the engine is running. Another chap on here suggested having temeprature sensors to switch it on and off according to demand, a good idea, but in my case they were off most of the time, so didnt really warrant the extra complication. So, to simplify it, I just put a car ballast resistor in series, the fan just idles along full time. What I may do with this one is to add some way of heating the lubricating oil. These Listers are dirty in the sump, and I reckon its because the oil never gets hot enough to boil off the contaminants, thereby forming sludge very quickly. Extending the pump outlet oil line to a few turns around the hot exhaust may be all that is needed, I think it would help. But then, Listers in general dont seem to mind shitty oil, and Ive seen some really bad examples where the oil is the consistency of thick cream with coagulated lumps. an emulsion of oil and water, but the bearings show no signs of distress at all. So, I could be over thinking it.
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I don't understand running with the lifter in the lift position ?
Am I missing something ?
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Me too!
Well as far as the 12v radiator fan goes.
I've got the rad, complete with the cowling that supports the fan along with the thermostatic switch that mounts in the rad. I begged it out of an LDV van that has been sat on my mates farm for the last 4 years.
I turned it 90 degrees to have it's narrow aspect vertical and the plumbing all ended up in the right place, more or less. it's a really neat installation.
The power is supplied by a 12v transformer that should be driving LED lights, but it seems quite happy sitting in the dog house on top of the alternator. it's wired to one of the phases, when the motor starts.....
I've yet to run it hot enough for the switch to kick in, it may be busted, I've not taken it out to check it yet, I've also fitted a 'bypass' switch and the Lister seems happy with the fan running continually.
I too wondered about Starfire's Lister 'running' with the decompressor 'up', (nice motor by the way) or is it that there's so little friction it takes longer than mine to 'spool down'?
Cheers Stef
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I noticed too on the video that it does seem to run with the lifter up, but, no, it just looks that way. The engine turns very freely is all, and remember theres nothing connected to it yet. The only reason I was using the lifter, the fuel lever on the injector pump is very tight and dont want to force anything until I check it over.... todays job.
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I know where there is a 3 1/2 with an original drip can!
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I have great success with oil heating by using an oil cooler from a boat. http://www.go2marine.com/category/14779/oil-coolers-for-boats.html the link gives a general idea of the type of cooler. I got mine used, maybe fleabay, so don't let those retail prices put you off.
I put it in the hot water up leg of the thermo-siphon so I selected a cooler with a water connection to match the hose from the Ashmamegh 25/2.
I re-piped the oil system inside the crankcase so the pump discharge pipe went up to the oil cooler (now heater) then thru a spin on oil filter and back into the engine.
I also run a bypass filter, a Frantz toilet paper element directly off the top of the oil pump discharge where you prime the pump. The outlet of this filter feeds a small dribble of oil to the 'dry' cam of the injector pump farthest from the governor.
The engine jacket water heats to about 190 degrees under load, and the oil temp is at least 180 degrees.
I have an attic fan in the garage where my generator is set up. The Radiator air flow is guided by a plywood plenum up to the fan. I control water temp by placing sheet plastic against part of the radiator, the vacuum from the fan holds it in place.
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When I rebuilt my 6/1 with taper roller bearings (to make best use of a well worn crank) I modded the two pipes that fed oil to the main bearings to feed into the open sides of the TRB's.
Butch, 38 AC, pointed out that this wasn't really necessary as there is far more oil slung around the crank case by the dipper than will ever be required, and that Listeroids with TRB's as original equipment have no oil pump anyway.
I've left the pump in to circulate the oil through a spin off filter
Without looking I don't know when the 'pulse' of the oil pump occurs, but might it be feasible to redirect one arm up to squirt on to the bottom of the piston, at BDC, in a similar fashion to some high speed diesels I've worked on?
It wouldn't harm the small end (wrist pin, for those on the other side of English!) bearing, and I doubt the cooling of the piston it's self would be a negative issue, but there would surely be a transfer of heat down to the sump.
The other leg could be lead off to the lonely bearing at the 'dry' end of the cam shaft
Any thoughts?........
Cheers Stef
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Today I removed and cleaned the injector pump.
Now its not working well.
Is there a proper relationship between the rack, the cog, and the piston? The rack obviously can go only one way, the cog can go in any way, the piston can go two ways depending on the cog position. The rack now has limited travel when connected to the governor linkage, it wont open fully, or if the linkage is adjusted to open fully, then the rack wont close completely. The thing is driving me nuts. The engine runs fine otherwise.
I guess what Im asking, is there a right position of the piston in relation to the cylinder given the placement of the spill groove?
Note to self, take more time to study stuff as you pull it apart
I watched and copied this, relevant part 5 minutes in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=091xsWZ2wHY&t=170s
Indians are clever but hard to understand.....
Have I missed something?
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When I rebuilt my 6/1 with taper roller bearings (to make best use of a well worn crank) I modded the two pipes that fed oil to the main bearings to feed into the open sides of the TRB's.
Butch, 38 AC, pointed out that this wasn't really necessary as there is far more oil slung around the crank case by the dipper than will ever be required, and that Listeroids with TRB's as original equipment have no oil pump anyway.
I've left the pump in to circulate the oil through a spin off filter
Without looking I don't know when the 'pulse' of the oil pump occurs, but might it be feasible to redirect one arm up to squirt on to the bottom of the piston, at BDC, in a similar fashion to some high speed diesels I've worked on?
It wouldn't harm the small end (wrist pin, for those on the other side of English!) bearing, and I doubt the cooling of the piston it's self would be a negative issue, but there would surely be a transfer of heat down to the sump.
The other leg could be lead off to the lonely bearing at the 'dry' end of the cam shaft
Any thoughts?........
Cheers Stef
Extra oiling for the camshaft bearings? A very good thing.
Cooling the piston? Certainly not needed nor even desirable in one of these engines.
Strictly my opinion, but non-scientific. Sometimes maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks!
dieselgman
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I wasn't thinking of the piston cooling but the heating of the oil for the reasons suggested earlier in the post.
It would also keep all the plumbing inside the crank case, if any of it failed the system would be no worse off than before and the oil wouldn't be heading for the shed floor instead of the big end!
Cheers Stef
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Now, heres a thought.
Why not have the oil pumped through the water jackets prior to getting to the bearings? Sounds daft, but think about it., eliminates radiators and fans, simple and altogether quite neat in theory. Theres an awful lot of surface area in a Lister sump and crankcase to disperse heat, thats why the oil stays cold.......... 8)
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Now, heres a thought.
Why not have the oil pumped through the water jackets prior to getting to the bearings? Sounds daft, but think about it., eliminates radiators and fans, simple and altogether quite neat in theory. Theres an awful lot of surface area in a Lister sump and crankcase to disperse heat, thats why the oil stays cold.......... 8)
It might work in an engine with no load. However, there is enough BTU to dissipate under load, the surface area of a lister would likely be insufficient without massive airflow and would quickly overheat. Not to mention that oil does not transfer heat rapidly, as the specific heat of oil is roughly half that of water.
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I have great success with oil heating by using an oil cooler from a boat. http://www.go2marine.com/category/14779/oil-coolers-for-boats.html the link gives a general idea of the type of cooler. I got mine used, maybe fleabay, so don't let those retail prices put you off.
I put it in the hot water up leg of the thermo-siphon so I selected a cooler with a water connection to match the hose from the Ashmamegh 25/2.
I re-piped the oil system inside the crankcase so the pump discharge pipe went up to the oil cooler (now heater) then thru a spin on oil filter and back into the engine.
I also run a bypass filter, a Frantz toilet paper element directly off the top of the oil pump discharge where you prime the pump. The outlet of this filter feeds a small dribble of oil to the 'dry' cam of the injector pump farthest from the governor.
The engine jacket water heats to about 190 degrees under load, and the oil temp is at least 180 degrees.
I have an attic fan in the garage where my generator is set up. The Radiator air flow is guided by a plywood plenum up to the fan. I control water temp by placing sheet plastic against part of the radiator, the vacuum from the fan holds it in place.
Did you notice cleaner oil after doing this??