Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Barenburg on January 26, 2017, 07:14:27 PM
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I'm new here so Hello to everyone.
I have a 6/1 clone I've considered a Kit Engine for a while and have just found time to work on the thing.
I've stripped the castings down, and painted everything. During the Flywheel inspection I was not impressed by the quality of the casting. They do look good now with flash, sand and mis-matches ground out.
In my effort to match them I made a 2" shaft with ball bearings and used that as an easy way to use the "string and bucket method" to match them. Interestingly enough the key slots are in the correct location compared to the geometry of the wheel, however the both wheels settle to an awkward position.(http://AF1QipNNXQA3V8hzNkGQ-_1qKlECIuSiZR1neFHDPXvY.htm)
I'm not sure if I figured out how to link a picture but the settle with the counterweight about 10 degrees from center. It takes about 7 oz of lead at what should be the three o'clock position to get them close.
Other than that they ring OK and are within about 2oz of each other. It appears to be a combination of mold mismatch and porousity in the castings. As bad as they are, they are remarkably consistent.
Thanks, Bill
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I do not see any pictures, but by your description would certainly be considered "typical".
Sounds like you are on the right track to getting them checked out and properly balanced.
dieselgman
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Welcome, Bill
Sounds like you're doing a first class rebuild. Bravo.
+1 on Gary's comment: 7 oz to correct a 10 degree error is normal, and consistency within 2 oz is exceptional.
Once you do your final balancing under load, you'll appreciate 38ac's method greatly, as I did. Fore and aft movement of the head means you need to reduce counterbalance, up and down means add more counterbalance. In either case, 2oz to each wheel is a useful small increment. Don't be shocked if it needs up to 16 oz per wheel.
Check that cam shaft for straightness and check the lobe timing too. It's easiest to check lobe timing before adding the connecting rod, piston and cylinder; if you do find the wildly off blooper you're ready to correct the offending lobe without a lot of extra work and wasted time. A dial gauge on the valve lifters, TDC and BDC on your flywheel relative to the rack closer bolt center is all you need (plus a metric tape measure).
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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Sounds like you have a typical set of Indian 'wheels to me. I am also in the middle of adjusting a set of 8/1 type disk flywheels for a customer project.
Its real important that the heavy spot in in the exactly opposite the crankshaft throw or weird things happen when you are trying to settle the engine down. Since the Indians rarely get the keyway in the exact right place a person cannot rely upon the spokes or shape of the flywheel to get the heavy spot in the right place. The procedure to get it right is a bit involved to write up but in practice doesn't take long and the results are quite satisfying. Here is how I do it. Some pictures might be helpful, let me know if you'd like them?
#1 You need to have a a DEAD ON TDC mark.
You do this by installing a piston stop. This need not be fancy but needs offer repeatable results. I use a cross bar puller and the long head studs. You can put a 3/8" nut on top of the piston where it wont hit the valves or swirl chamber and bolt the head back on with a couple nuts. You also need a steady pointer. The fuel pump bolts and governor pivot bolt are handy places to a pointer. Install both flywheels and insert the Gibb keys far enough that they dont move. Now turn the engine unit it hits your stop and mark the flywheel next to your pointer. Then turn it the other way until it hits and mark the flywheel once more. Halfway between your marks is exactly TDC. If using a nut or other somewhat flimsy stop be sure to turn the crank and check several times to be sure your result is repeatable. Mark TDC and remove your stop.
#2 Place marks on the flywheels that are inline with the crank throw.
This is easiest done with the engine sitting on the floor. It can be on a cart or skid but the base must be near level. If you happen to have a drywall square it works great, if not you need a couple of 4 foot 2x4 s and a framing square. You screw the 2x4s together making a big "t" shaped square. If you happen to have half a sheet of plywood that was cut squarely it would also do the same thing. Place the engine at TDC and put your square on the floor, against the crankshaft and up next to the flywheel and place a mark the width of the rim both on top and the bottom of the flywheel. Now move it to the other side of the crankshaft and do the same thing. You now have marks roughly 2" apart on opposite sides of the crankshaft that are in exact line with the crankshaft throw. Replete on the other flywheel. Next place strips of masking tape on your marks and spray paint the area between the tape with easily seen paint, I use white. If your engine is painted and you dont wish to redo it then tape the entire area between the marks.
#3 now remove the flywheels and put them back on your balance stand then stand back and look at the areas you painted on the flywheels, they must be vertical. If not you must add weight, grind or drill to correct. Again pay no attention to to the orientation of the spokes as they are irrelevant.
#4 Now you hang the can of weights and equalize the offset weight in both flywheels.
#5 Preform running tests remembering that all weight added or subtracted must be in line with or opposite the crank throw and NEVER anywhere else.
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Thanks for this update, Butch. Not trusting the crankshaft keyway location is something I didn't understand before.
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Some pics to make it easier to digest.
This is my preferred design easy to make pointer. Remove and drill the governor pivot bolt about 3/8" deep with a #7 bit. Do not go too deep as it will weaken the shank. Then tap with a 1/4 -20 tap, you will need a bottom tap for this due to the shallow hole. Next you need a 1/4" cap screw long enough that it has an unthreaded portion. Cut the threads so only a 2-3 remain. then cut the head and shank so what remains looks like the picture. Round it some and install . Once you find TDC Mark it at the pointer with a square and marker then stamp it in the flywheel with a chisel so it is permanent. The other mark is 20 degrees prior to TDC and used for timing the start of fuel injection.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/5l1jbt.jpg)
This is what I was talking about on how to mark the flywheels. The engine does not need to be leveled however the bottom of the square must be in the same plane as the base. mark each side with a marker then fill in the middle so it is easy to see. In the picture it is evident that the key way is not perfectly aligned with the opening on this 8/1 flywheel. Lots of grinding was required to get the marks to sit straight up and down on the stand. This is why step one is mandatory to achieve good balance and one of the things that makes the guess and place methods so hard to achieve good results with.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/2s0xmio.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/hv6xe0.jpg)
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Sounds like you have a typical set of Indian 'wheels to me. I am also in the middle of adjusting a set of 8/1 type disk flywheels for a customer project.
Its real important that the heavy spot in in the exactly opposite the crankshaft throw or weird things happen when you are trying to settle the engine down. Since the Indians rarely get the keyway in the exact right place a person cannot rely upon the spokes or shape of the flywheel to get the heavy spot in the right place. The procedure to get it right is a bit involved to write up but in practice doesn't take long and the results are quite satisfying. Here is how I do it. Some pictures might be helpful, let me know if you'd like them?
#1 You need to have a a DEAD ON TDC mark.
You do this by installing a piston stop. This need not be fancy but needs offer repeatable results. I use a cross bar puller and the long head studs. You can put a 3/8" nut on top of the piston where it wont hit the valves or swirl chamber and bolt the head back on with a couple nuts. You also need a steady pointer. The fuel pump bolts and governor pivot bolt are handy places to a pointer. Install both flywheels and insert the Gibb keys far enough that they dont move. Now turn the engine unit it hits your stop and mark the flywheel next to your pointer. Then turn it the other way until it hits and mark the flywheel once more. Halfway between your marks is exactly TDC. If using a nut or other somewhat flimsy stop be sure to turn the crank and check several times to be sure your result is repeatable. Mark TDC and remove your stop.
Hey Butch, excuse a stupid question - but this works on the assumption that the keyways cut in the crankshafts are at zero degrees. Is this reliably the case? Cheers
#2 Place marks on the flywheels that are inline with the crank throw.
This is easiest done with the engine sitting on the floor. It can be on a cart or skid but the base must be near level. If you happen to have a drywall square it works great, if not you need a couple of 4 foot 2x4 s and a framing square. You screw the 2x4s together making a big "t" shaped square. If you happen to have half a sheet of plywood that was cut squarely it would also do the same thing. Place the engine at TDC and put your square on the floor, against the crankshaft and up next to the flywheel and place a mark the width of the rim both on top and the bottom of the flywheel. Now move it to the other side of the crankshaft and do the same thing. You now have marks roughly 2" apart on opposite sides of the crankshaft that are in exact line with the crankshaft throw. Replete on the other flywheel. Next place strips of masking tape on your marks and spray paint the area between the tape with easily seen paint, I use white. If your engine is painted and you dont wish to redo it then tape the entire area between the marks.
#3 now remove the flywheels and put them back on your balance stand then stand back and look at the areas you painted on the flywheels, they must be vertical. If not you must add weight, grind or drill to correct. Again pay no attention to to the orientation of the spokes as they are irrelevant.
#4 Now you hang the can of weights and equalize the offset weight in both flywheels.
#5 Preform running tests remembering that all weight added or subtracted must be in line with or opposite the crank throw and NEVER anywhere else.
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I have not seen a faulty crankshaft keyway (off of 0 degrees) before... this does not by any means indicate that it does not happen.
It is likely a safe assumption to make, that ALL assembly parameters could be questioned. Perhaps they should be? I don't know the exact machining order of operations for those cranks, but if someone set up the equipment in less than a fully accurate manner... all bets are off. Butch's marking method would certainly be dead-on accurate for TDC on the conrod throw, at least that would NOT be dependent on keyway placement.
I also know that the crank pinion gears are pressed on the shafts without any alignment keyway... that would be another place where typical Indian QC could easily fall short or fail. Lister used, and uses, very elaborate and precise jigs to assemble things like cam gears (and crank pinions) that also lack any alignment reference points. These things are at least in part dependent upon a highly skilled and attentive operator.
dieselgman
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Simple enough to locate the proper counterbalance location independent of crank keyway, now that Butch has shown us how. Best to assume nothing from Rajkot and then be pleased; they do get many things right, you just can't predict which ones. :)
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Gary, The way the crankshafts are made and assuming how they are held for machine work the crank key is easy to get in the correct place, Not so with the flywheels. I have never seen a crankshaft with a keyway in the wrong place but have only seen a couple flywheels that did have them in the correct place. None the less when installed and marked on the engine it matters not other than the grinding one must do to get the offset weight in the correct relationship to the crank pin. Building 'roids would be boring if there wasn't for corrective work to do, LOL
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Thanks for the warm welcome!
I don't do much social media. How are you hosting pictures so the show up? I tried putting picture on Google Share, but I've obviously done something wrong :-\
TY
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Hi there!
I balance helicopters for a living, the lister is child's play. I understand single cylinder engine balance quite well. I've come to the conclusion that the balance of a single cylinder engine really needs to be done while running. While not required, it might be slightly better to do it at partial load. If both flywheels are consistently made, they then any unbalance will offset each other. As they are mounted opposed.
Install 'em, run the engine and then balance it, via the methods contained in some threads/posts on this forum. If you balance the flywheels first, you have not accomplished anything helpful on a single.
Briefly: A Lister's single piston's inertia can be offset by a 100% counterweight. However, that full counterweight will then cause horizontal "shuffle", as there is no horizontal opposing force to that counterweight. Picture the counterweight at the same level as the crank, it's inertia will pull the engine that direction!
Soooooo, a counterweight is generally "about" 50% of the reciprocating mass. For many single cylinder engines, a 53% "balance factor" works well. This results in an engine that has equal up/down and fore/aft vibrations. And done correctly, is generally considered comfortably smooth.
A single will never be vibration free without some form of trickery! (for example, a single or better yet, pair of counter-rotating balance shafts) There are other ways to make a single mostly vibration free. None of these methods apply to us, ignore them.
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When we dynamically balance a conventional single, we mount accelerometers vertically and horizontally. In relation to the cylinder. We then compare the readings between the two. The goal is simple, match as closely as possible the two readings. We find that overall vibration, measured in IPS (inches per second) decreases significantly when the two are matched closely.
It is typical to find many production engines underbalanced, as weight is expensive and/or takes up room. Single cylinder engines from lawn mowers, to dirt bikes and listers all suffer from production quality issues. Most are assembled from parts within a set of specifications or limitations. Very, very few are actually balanced dynamically prior to leaving the factory.
(http://www.dsi-hums.com/wp-content/themes/striking_r/cache/images/1841_901-4109-accelerometer-300x266_a-628x556.jpg)
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Hi there!
I balance helicopters for a living, the lister is child's play. I understand single cylinder engine balance quite well. I've come to the conclusion that the balance of a single cylinder engine really needs to be done while running. While not required, it might be slightly better to do it at partial load. If both flywheels are consistently made, they then any unbalance will offset each other. As they are mounted opposed.
Install 'em, run the engine and then balance it, via the methods contained in some threads/posts on this forum. If you balance the flywheels first, you have not accomplished anything helpful on a single.
Briefly: A Lister's single piston's inertia can be offset by a 100% counterweight. However, that full counterweight will then cause horizontal "shuffle", as there is no horizontal opposing force to that counterweight. Picture the counterweight at the same level as the crank, it's inertia will pull the engine that direction!
Soooooo, a counterweight is generally "about" 50% of the reciprocating mass. For many single cylinder engines, a 53% "balance factor" works well. This results in an engine that has equal up/down and fore/aft vibrations. And done correctly, is generally considered comfortably smooth.
A single will never be vibration free without some form of trickery! (for example, a single or better yet, pair of counter-rotating balance shafts) There are other ways to make a single mostly vibration free. None of these methods apply to us, ignore them.
I predict there will be discussion on this question . . .
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OK, another attempt to add the pictures(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZygGqY66qearwQoCyRiaEc3e3EnJXU0dR_tT6o8HdpPhlrZSK7whpYUKpt6Mxs9LXDr_rkXBFZ2JLGbdJIxn-cWtgbYi5Ga-qqZdiFcAww3gjiSprLUGIIRb2CuLGCftvZ-A6hGL6TUGWz7SwIivCtwXnzZvto2OTXBbtO_SZhxtg1-8jtTWeKX3VKHOOE5u9XwTMmICRSdV74r5Ffz8OWmGbqHek2rGxR6lh4mUgcHCNC6UL18LVsqKhlFFhJQiDGQ03UgxxFg8lCOy5Yp7a4uSCNBAEFX0BISnFJSJUl-y0SfNQn3rRQlVf0G4TqHzrjmrBe_WNNfAByq6quvQ6KNyabSZRFX42qXVlGfbPbrjkT4w6sCkyBxtBI9u31zzCp_PLhX1epbHqFJp8NLIxF5dMrQJHx6SUqy41Ro-ZnYQ6sQ8PRCggdHkECC3NShpq42eVHH3hx1zwICTRlZZnv9EuZbUC7yaAmicJ2yubiTa87Dv83B03b7_GLvypciHp89U0rPSn7VwKJeFB2WV9tkqappGyOm9CuWYiKCWdWw9bgBGikPjvD0Fy1A_nci6sN_LGQD8gR6Y7jYHDc0JDIZIZ4lmifOPRxUJ9qiyly8cnrX6dsE8VlrJD4grlRkAYhta87fZ5QrYcHxPL-Ls5KJcwBPmxktO4a0m0Qin=w502-h890-no) after 7oz of weights added at about 3 o'clock (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jVc6dqEYu6LTDHncmMHzjqQcsCPKqM8ltEnlwL2bUuDdeQcOpY4Pt3PHaUXLQMYPWJ8mGAgsGbw86e-Wwv5ABlNYvWa2gE40NE7-KqqsFTH9JQNf2haGFqyGYdSNJqgvg-jqCiFHqe7XEnM_31K_B0KX4LNybYOvl6pnJgPi4R8U9cfvFHj5vZFqNvdzJdU6wlEUZNNLCMqjdJzfEUECNkJWy-DHSiUoBv1jqcxGuk8Iv3KJ8tifdBmle53TsyyC-NsJhPGkVuFYJxxyTXZsBPJAE2xecIxfvj1PUtfmwYnuhkJCxfo7DzVBicOimmClFkRgwMLJdpuE9O35pHeogN0rPUh-lFFV12A-CAHuXt7EZxBV_acCDVL_4-D0EhUx0M5jr9yOaprz_uRN6FDrAkL8Zl2yFMOYGat5w0SNGYduT4q_-p3V5t3u7Y-xEL3bv4W9zO4Cm43-TkuXrLT0Lhxav29Jcgd53k1d6hGBTNOwxbUkJiau01BZwmxa9s3er6-V20W8LPP49I3zwI769ckktLgmG5vCeJze3srydLuv0s7yu6WegTgDRV-YW9YC7vQ01QF7oiZug_zk6vNM8k9ke5ZUqDO7qef-_iYCbCpNkIZjnbW3CWCXX-WIvVqOERqEKmpGFKt62nBsfe7oPClMnpE4LdgV2OXGP5fy=w502-h890-no)
I guess you can teach old dog new tricks...........
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Wow :o Those are really loaded up with that white bondo putty the indians are so fond of ;)
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Looking good! Make sure those weights are securely attached before the engine is operated. The exit velocity of flying weights would be rim circumference X RPM !! or LOTS.
Cujet is of course correct in that a person with the right equipment and experience can balance the engine no matter what problems exist in the flywheels but few of us have either of those at our disposal. It is also correct that a person with neither experience nor equipment can skip all the prep work and come to a reasonable balance by marking flywheels with chalk and adding weights at various locations until he has the right amount in the right place but it doesn't come easy that way.
I have done it both ways and what I found was that simply marking running flywheels with chalk has issues that dont meet the untrained eye. One of which is the movement due to problems with one wheel does not stay on that side of the engine, indeed it transfers to to the other side as as movement in more or less the opposite direction and there is no way for a person without instruments to know exactly where the problem lies so he is left to guess. Power pulses also play havoc with the chalk mark method. For me it is easier to remove the wheels, correct them and have only two places to add or remove weight. This removes 95% of the variables we are handed with poorly manufactured 'wheels and 95% of the guess work as to wear to attach or remove weight.
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Wow :o Those are really loaded up with that white bondo putty the indians are so fond of ;)
Not really Mike. I stripped them down to the bare metal, ground all the flash and lumps away..... What you are seeing is "almond" one part epoxy paint with just a bit of 3M Bondo here and there.
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I neglected to add that balancing equipment is not needed. Believe it or not, just pressing your index finger tip, hard, against a surface will register vibration.
While I am experienced balancing all sorts of things, the "finger test" is valid and quite accurate.
For example of the 10 shaft bearings, how do I know which one is vibrating? I can put my hand on each and they feel the same. But, push my finger tip on the bearing, and vibrations are directly transmitted into the bones and nerves. Within seconds, it's obvious which one is bad.
As crazy as it sounds, I can balance a lister this way.
Too much vertical vibes = not enough counterweight.
Too much horizontal vibes = too much counterweight.
Another thing. The weight is always opposed to the crank pin. Plus or minus a few degrees adjustment for other imbalances.
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Gort I am intrigued by the phone app deal, please keep us posted.
Cujet, A story I think you can appreciate.
One of my neighbors, now sadly deceased was an engineer for Rolls Royce. He specialized in balancing problems on their big turbine powered gas compressors and was sent all over the world to work at his specialty. He was also the biggest cheap skate I have ever known in my life. One day he hit a bumper jack with his push mower and bent the crankshaft on the B&S engine. Since I had a big vise on the back of my service truck he brought the mover over and asked if he could use my vise. We removed the engine and knocked the crankshaft around a bit and before it was perfectly straight he pronounced it good enough. I said it will vibrate like the dickens! And he just nodded his head. He got a piece of paper out and did some calculations and said he needed to borrow my grinder to trim one end of the blade. When he installed the blade he timed it to the way the crank was bent and said he said "That engine was designed to operate at 3600 RPM, now IF I have calculated correctly it is going to vibrate like heck at idle and will also vibrate like heck when wide open, but if I throttle it back about 200 RPM (he quoted an exact RPM) it will be as smooth as it ever was."
I have to admit that I thought the old coot was F.OS. but he fired that mower up and it worked EXACTLY as he predicted. He could tell I was impressed and said Sonny, I am after all an engineer who specializes in vibration,,, and he went and cut his grass.
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With the flywheels weighted so that the counterweight rests squarely at the bottom, how to "match" them.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JTg8gCnOTcdI7I8x3c48VK2S2bniHyyF8wP2G_PQt-g89TBKn26iV1ETviTRWPtzbOjBKeKWntfY5sh4CMYKJ_DxGksyPi09LKqGzPT-kVGvXTsjAVWWPlLw8FX-BvO1fGi9tMfiRyBWXpydQvz4WWcWgV3jE0iZgvR5sLBOWxU8abFwUc6gkU6rbrBf8WOirso6Z_oltHfhi_dg3kS9oGJGKKAY7TErEuQYr2FKGugPnp-BcwwdVN8Ku2ZW8cWHOQLS1-izB6sIXemjP2anPk3O9DKpgo2cJoBpdK_AV99lE81t4hFdrHm-_fIDDsVLhdyUwX7GzwHEZBXwktWOIBZUw-L2Xl4Iht7ty2lJZzBK3rpE1GSJY4-tHOh8AELpzi9PZagZLookyvV3KprgFkV_UVfULzBi0_dXhV3RcwwCTu0p-ybMd1KGJUmcqmcCZ6uI9dH7TblFkvIpDrosRsXvYWvZ2T-R_zMAJn1_NAecQDlLeLFCdU76r49808qKIl5JMragYJsowf0G6S95VGadHoh8XuwOo8vjfRUwS8TrA_lkWPo7bp79gGZu4ZTxOQSagUItJUIknjA71N0NXHCcbXUHjaM3j02KuLKVv1vHgctcm6o=w489-h868-no)
Since I had nearly an 1/8th inch difference in diameter the string and bucket method would give errors based on force and distance. How to get the force x distance thing as close as possible??? My solution is to mount them on the same shaft 180` out, so that the counterweights are opposite each other.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ez86VuGsTxlqOuRJhrMBa_aQJyjM6BxrmmC6BRRPaY0c4iAlTdXHMPGILShpIDMbBQaYQw-VSBZ7dF3A9GlQoJBg5gBi7yjB0hko6pjIwo5HJLsduYjFrForHecYmx-F3QQXvSf_nqgd8_fgrVYhntDGQVANNfFKugTcnzEkwT45T7JP9M4mG4GnLIxjsIUBeN8FzckkmnpjvbJIW0VKHZtu7MdiJ4kfW4U5b4UURbVdoPU6OYCRtXkJr1pbAuK6QRNBYF_czQDUdlger_O1sLfoffzHhe-h_o3JetLeTkRUiLFN3OmmP-LwdWjrqdMoIbcnvMLZDCK8PQOqvVUszyU8oTV4BwUDGhpEP42osNbaO8H-HS4W_Pgn5Wv9UoADZzRuYBZt_movhCK70Wmr75ATmhHiwkdi8zC-5VB1wzYD5k2p066ZZU5q1YYuxCHOJqiRAda0lBmCL_mljUtFYd6K0DTa9slxLzEZvUCIOHoIPfjJneIc4O1slvqW2MjvRAcfDBhf8EUBhl0xJgfHBhqsckYxcd_x3qsap9GEdRo7De9YwZc-RGV2-IvKdRK6fFlGGVI0jY1qhy4PMp3NiHLo-cPr0wkfezYob2uv2Vs3HS0=w489-h868-no) I machined the shaft with two key seats 180 degrees apart, and installed the flywheels using the gib keys.
A little bit more stick-on lead, and now these guys will stay at any position I choose.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/h_XkHhwjmbRnwrdwtBrCuPn0dctEksGOf5kxVbwNI8iRCWGjFGNKstdfFkLwq3437gofv_jSywjMA_0nV9zxTAS696eaI4NyoKB4TtJSmqtUvYeCysa4tpOiOGg-AJbiPBzsH-GKBJ3_JIyGc3owlZQQ2vKqSvwrKFORqZ-KiKieyM12gUp1VKan27aB7i5GLW2OAERdQd07ChCWChQXWfEJxojoGVUN1VTXkzDYHlI_yOg3cw0NOKVgvPcCbqB7CCzeL-zmm0nc_K7rJ_rj7AZUrn4Sgqgn8nAWtdYNQXBb3YiAQLybpS_M3omnZ1i0NWKRXO1o-2WPXRgzOA_8XQluAnTCNV1fzkdxZBtW1Ycz6_kPiGJ5e9Ycygs2C6E98-xqBtspzXaC14di9KWMz9IfxkiomAnyxHgbzg6-CXgC26g8KGcLpXvKiyGY3ioW_5AIFTz4sI58ozsWE2-V37LeHqEuVOHrPET5vzmkvnk9ThtUV9Aty_p5-XZvB4RQEc8-XQo0qV6R2n6UOSLgXspPu7Pgx-clHmCgMW2DR64IpfMbsW-Uh8Jd_C4OkgSkqwv8NwBOU8ouzoRzxhxSP8ltw-2SiyJ33yyTLFTjbjk9dSk=w1543-h868-no)
The rest of the engine is coming a long. It wont be long before we see first smoke :-) If anyone is interested in buying / borrowing the balance (matching) shaft let me know.
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I'm afraid that you have just matched the flywheels. You still do not know if you have underbalanced or overbalanced flywheels. And you don't know if the keyways are where they are supposed to be, and that placement dictates where the counterbalances are in relationship to the crankpin. I don't mean to criticize, I'm just puzzled.
And if I have missed a major part of this whole thing just overlook me please.
Ron
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Ron, You are correct I don't know if I'm over or under balanced. That's easy to fix with stick on lead later. My key seat locations have been verified as correct within my ability to measure.
Since both wheels were wrong on the same side as installed, it had the same effect as the key being placed incorrectly. It only took a couple ounces to match them once they were adjusted for the correct bottom.
I'll know soon enough.
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Most of these, from what I read are under balanced.
Time will tell.
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Overbalance by over a pound in the aluminum piston 8/1's is also common... no telling what wheels go on which engine, apparently. Conrod weight variation of over 1.2 lb is also something I've seen. 38ac's marvelous method solves all variations with the least fussing and time because it's only down to more (hopper) or less (fore and aft rocking) counterweight. All engines can be smooth runners.
I had not heard of flywheel diameter variation before. If I had it, I'd just shim half the diameter difference under the string at 3/9 o'clock when matching counterbalance weights. And maybe try a bit of extra weight on the small one. Close counts.
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A lot of us got our engines about 10-12 years ago, and there was a flurry of posts about how best to balance these beasts on this forum around 2005-2006. Lots of great discussions.
After completely stripping two engines down to nuts and bolts, removing paint to bare metal and grinding, filling and painting, it was clear to me that it would be very unlikely if both the 140 lb. 6-spoke flywheels weighed the same. I wanted to know how much difference there was between the counterweights in the two wheels. I figured it was best to start out with two flywheels with equal counterweights. That gets rid of the tendency of the engine to torque around the axis of the cylinder with each power and compression pulse. Then begin balancing in earnest.
I decided I'd build a bubble balancer. I turned a 3" round of aluminum into the shape of a tall top hat with a deep recess drilled into it. The hat fit inside the bore of the flywheel, and the assembly balanced on the point of a 1/4" steel rod I welded to a plate of steel. I set a bullseye-type bubble leveler on top of the end of the top hat, and slowly added weight to the high side of the flywheel rim until the bubble was centered in the bullseye. Then I weighed the lead.
The amount of lead needed to balance the flywheels was 35 oz. on one, and 48 oz. on the other. So there was more than a pound of difference in the counterweights of the two flywheels.
There's been a LOT of discussion over the years about what the weight of the counterweight SHOULD BE on a 6/1. But I don't think anyone ever reported the weight.
Quinn
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I think Quinn was the one of the first to do a good analytical approach to balancing. Some folks had engines so badly under-balanced than attempts to bolt them down led to broken bolts, and they literally shook the ground for quite some distance.
I miss reading about Quinn's projects- lots of good engineering to learn from and be inspired by.
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Aw, shucks, Bruce. Thank you. I've been a pharmaceutical R&D chemist for 35 years, and always have felt I never embraced my true love. I sure do love nuts and bolts!
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Yessir, I read all of the achieved material on the balancing subject that I could find. Some interesting reading that's for sure and I am grateful to those who posted their work.
As a matter of fact the entire deal that those early engine importers went through is interesting reading. High expectations that were rarely met, dealing with the problems, inventing work arounds in the engine shed. All of it is interesting reading for me. I have probably read virtually every archived post on this site and learned much more than I have ever offered back. Every build that goes through the shop offers a new challenge it seems, keeps life interesting.
Had a pretty good winter for sales, even sold my personal 6/1 work engine and my oldest son has "borrowed" ??? my KOEL 8/1 set permanently leaving me without a 'roid work engine. Time to get another kit out of storage and build a D.E.S. 8/1 for myself. I have also have Z2 Bamford apart but it will have to wait until I fix my work personal work engine problem ;)
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A lot of us got our engines about 10-12 years ago, and there was a flurry of posts about how best to balance these beasts on this forum around 2005-2006. Lots of great discussions.
After completely stripping two engines down to nuts and bolts, removing paint to bare metal and grinding, filling and painting, it was clear to me that it would be very unlikely if both the 140 lb. 6-spoke flywheels weighed the same. I wanted to know how much difference there was between the counterweights in the two wheels. I figured it was best to start out with two flywheels with equal counterweights. That gets rid of the tendency of the engine to torque around the axis of the cylinder with each power and compression pulse. Then begin balancing in earnest.
I decided I'd build a bubble balancer. I turned a 3" round of aluminum into the shape of a tall top hat with a deep recess drilled into it. The hat fit inside the bore of the flywheel, and the assembly balanced on the point of a 1/4" steel rod I welded to a plate of steel. I set a bullseye-type bubble leveler on top of the end of the top hat, and slowly added weight to the high side of the flywheel rim until the bubble was centered in the bullseye. Then I weighed the lead.
The amount of lead needed to balance the flywheels was 35 oz. on one, and 48 oz. on the other. So there was more than a pound of difference in the counterweights of the two flywheels.
There's been a LOT of discussion over the years about what the weight of the counterweight SHOULD BE on a 6/1. But I don't think anyone ever reported the weight.
Quinn
BTW, I read with keen interest your posts on Utterpower. Did you ever finish part three of the 6/1 build?
I'm learning a lot as I go here helped immensely by all that have done these things before me. I must admit that without all of the info I might have given this Indian a resting place of the coast of St Augustine as a mooring. To one degree or another I found all the problems mentioned, a beach full of sand, poorly machined valve train, and a 14:1 compression ratio. Now with all that fixed, I'm close to smoke on my Anil 6/1. Since I have the Indirect with a cast iron piston I expect to be under balanced, but with about a pound of lead already added, maybe it will be close. Finger test and the phone ap will be used for fun of course......
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on my DES 8/1 with aluminum piston I took the flywheels off and cleaned them up like you did. amazing amount of white putty and filler, lots of porosity and holes in the cast. very sad. any way to get the key to hang at the bottom I just cleaned the inside of the rim of the wheel and one of the spokes with a grinder where i wanted to remove weight until it hung vertical. then I cleaned off more to get the counterbalance weights the same. it really didn't take much grinding. I used the string and bucket technique. once they were equal I put them on and ran it and it was way out of balance. I had to add 12oz to each flywheel opposite the counterweight to get it to smooth out. here are my numbers if anybody cares. I found a lot of fun formulas for balancing but in the end they were pointless because you just add weight to get it to smooth out. pretty simple.
Piston rings wrist pin & e clips= 4.456 lb
Entire rod with bushing and bearing= 8.76lb
Bushing end 3.125lb
Bearing end 6lb 3zo
Estimated weight of crank pin 2.5 diam 5.5L 7.65lb
Bore and stroke 4.49” x 5.49”
After cleaning and grinding to match the weights and get the key to sit on the bottom at rest the wheels measured as follows:
Front wheel 2lb 8oz counterweight , 136.5lb total weight.
Rear wheel 2lb 8.1oz counterweight 136lb total weight.
Added 12 one oz stick on weights to both the front and rear wheels to smooth the engines running out. The weights were added opposite the counterweight to cancel it out.
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here are some pics,
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/009_zps9qamrgzc.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/009_zps9qamrgzc.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/010_zpshktdz7xm.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/010_zpshktdz7xm.jpg.html)
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Great going! I 'm glad you got it all sorted. I am starting to dread what I will find on my 'roid. I have an 8-1 also with an aluminum piston,
some brand that's so odd that I have only heard of 1 other, and it's been sitting around for 15 or 20 years I think.
Ron.
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No, I never got around to Part III. I wanted to clean up the flywheels and document balancing them, and then go through the oil pump and make it work like it should. And maybe do some work on the camshaft. But by that time, interest on the board seemed to be beginning to lag, and importing the engines was becoming problematic, so I crated up the Beta Test engine and it's still there sitting in a corner of my workshop. I'm thinking I'd sort of rather have the space than the engine now, since I have another 6/1 all set up and running. That Beta Test engine was about as good as I could make it. The last thing I planned to do was to clean up the flywheels and balance them permanently. But during a move to the new house (and bigger shop!), I was rassling with a flywheel in the bed of my pickup and managed to pull my left biceps off the radius bone and had to have surgery to repair it. That kept me away from work for a month, and when I got back I had to play catch-up big-time!
I told the Ortho-Doc that when it happened I was surprised, since I still had plenty of strength in that arm, but the insertion just tore off. I'd have thought our Designer would have made sure that a muscle isn't strong enough to rip itself off the bone, but I guess I just had a bad angle on it. Ortho-Doc smiled when I said that and then reminded me that I'm not 20 anymore.
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No, I never got around to Part III. I wanted to clean up the flywheels and document balancing them, and then go through the oil pump and make it work like it should. And maybe do some work on the camshaft. But by that time, interest on the board seemed to be beginning to lag, and importing the engines was becoming problematic, so I crated up the Beta Test engine and it's still there sitting in a corner of my workshop. I'm thinking I'd sort of rather have the space than the engine now, since I have another 6/1 all set up and running. That Beta Test engine was about as good as I could make it. The last thing I planned to do was to clean up the flywheels and balance them permanently. But during a move to the new house (and bigger shop!), I was rassling with a flywheel in the bed of my pickup and managed to pull my left biceps off the radius bone and had to have surgery to repair it. That kept me away from work for a month, and when I got back I had to play catch-up big-time!
I told the Ortho-Doc that when it happened I was surprised, since I still had plenty of strength in that arm, but the insertion just tore off. I'd have thought our Designer would have made sure that a muscle isn't strong enough to rip itself off the bone, but I guess I just had a bad angle on it. Ortho-Doc smiled when I said that and then reminded me that I'm not 20 anymore.
not sure if you have been on any antibiotics lately but i guess they are real hard on adults. just read this article and thought of you, "the damage is cumulative. The more exposures you have to these antibiotics, the more damage is done to your body. Not just for some people, ALL people. A hundred percent of people who take a Flouroquinolone antibiotic, show changes in blood flow to the tendon, cartilage, and ligament in their bodies. Each person has a different breaking point depending on their own unique DNA." i am going to question it a lot more if a doctor tells me I or my kids need antibiotics in the future.
https://mountainsandmustardseedssite.wordpress.com/2017/03/18/this-antibiotic-will-ruin-you/