Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: gusbratz on October 10, 2016, 07:17:01 PM
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I am in the beginning stages of putting a new DES 8/1 and 10kw st head together in my greenhouse as backup power. I just got the stuff in the mail last week. I thought I would try to post some pics here for you to look and enjoy as I build it over the winter. I started tearing the engine down last night. I got the flywheels off and everything but the crank out. The sump looks filthy like some real bad used oil was run in it during the test run but for the most part it is going good? I saw no oil groove inside the timing idler gear, I guess I am used to seeing that in a gear like that, wondering if I should cut one? I also noted 2 shims on 1 side of the rod bearing cap but just 1 shim on the other side. not sure what's up with that. I have a needle descaler and plan on trying to get all the paint out of the inside of the frame but how else do you clean the frame ? do you just lower it into lye and water and let it soak? thanks gus.
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Sodium Hydroxide (Lye), plus water, plus heat = clean cast iron. Most commercial solutions require the heat before the mixture gets really active, I think around 180 to 190F.
Do not get any aluminum parts into this mixture! They will generally degrade rapidly and turn black unless you have one of the specially buffered mixtures made for cleaning aluminum.
dieselgman
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Everything will fit inside a 55 gallon drum when disassembled, but not all at the same time. Set one up on some blocks KS or brick ad build a fire under it. Be super careful around the lye mixture!!!!! PPE is mandatory! !!!!. Build a tripod or set it up under a tree so you can hoist the heavy parts out. Same thing can be done cold with cheap oven cleaner rom the dollar store and pressure washer but it takes a good bit more work to do it that way. an
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I think you could successfully heat a tank full of lye solution by dropping in few dozen empty aluminum cans or pieces from a roll of aluminum foil. It eats the aluminum and creates heat and hydrogen. The tank better be outside!
I've used this recipe in a 5 gallon plastic pail with lid and pipe attached to lid. The water/lye heats up fast and cooling water must be run on the outside or it would melt the bucket. Great for filling garbage bags with hydrogen or other hydrogen experiments. The first bit of gas has air mixed with it and will make quite a bang if lit.
Bravo on your strip down Gusbratz. Gary of DES gave us outstanding support for our DES 8/1 conversion to propane., and I got a lot of excellent help from folks here on the forum too. The inside of our crankcase was quite rough so we die grinded the whole thing smooth before spraying with red electrical varnish. My needle scaler was too long to be worth much inside the case. A big carbide burr made fast work of shaping the rough openings and removing casting flash. Stones are slow on cast iron- only good for smoothing.
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i was like a kid on chrismas morning. my wife thought it was funny that i kept smiling. this is all the bits that were in the smaller box. not sure what the little green plastic straps are for in the plastic bag.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/max%20and%20dad%20basement%20006_zps5t9iajvu.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/max%20and%20dad%20basement%20006_zps5t9iajvu.jpg.html)
then the frame out of the crate sitting on the floor to kind of get an idea of how large a foundation i will need to pour.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/max%20and%20dad%20basement%20003_zpsxgafhyeu.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/max%20and%20dad%20basement%20003_zpsxgafhyeu.jpg.html)
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I believe the plastic pieces go between the fuel tank and the fuel tank straps.
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Ahh, that makes sense, but for some reason this engine did not come with a fuel tank or straps.
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They did you a favor. The fuel tanks were only good for the trash bin !
Gary
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Correct... we have found that 90% of them are rejects for one or more reasons. They are thin-walled and often poorly sealed. Most of them arrive with substantial rust damage both inside and outside. I have pestered them a bit about these problems, but to no avail so far. Original Lister tanks are at least double the thickness in the sheet-metal and have good quality fittings and caps, too bad we cannot get them any longer.
dieselgman
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Look into elevating your concrete pad, so the engine sits higher and is easier to work on, some members
have done this and can explain it better than I. Be sure the flywheels clear the concrete !
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It is just the darn fuel tanks that have hit an impasse due to cost and other practical demand issues. I consider it a non-essential and inconsequential piece of the total picture. Most people do not even install an engine mounted fuel tank. We continue to work in a positive direction on most everything else, it just takes a lot of time and patience.
I am a firm believer in the value and strengths of the original Lister designs as well as the current dynamics of viability in the world... it is hard to beat overall despite some problems in dealing with India in general. Of course, there are still plenty of original British machines to be had so we have a good standard to aspire to and many of the clone projects I have been involved with do achieve a good level of reliability and functionality. China is a similar nut to India in many ways, it is difficult to enforce ethics when dealing with a profit motive and people who feel insulated by the international distances in both geography and culture. We are dealing with both countries on a regular basis for our support of, and involvement with the generator business.
Regarding exporting crap, I am told that in actuality, export grade is the best stuff and what is kept and sold within the country is actually the reject crap. A completely different standard of expectations and pricing structure exists there. Just how true that might actually be is difficult to ascertain, although I have traveled there and observed the working conditions and practical applications for these machines. You and I would not do the same things with the equipment. I can clearly recall a fairly large cement mixer drum being spun by one of the 6/1 machines chugging away in a pile of dirt and debris so deep you wouldn't think it could last an hour. It is clearly a different world than the fully developed Western countries.
dieselgman
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i don't need a tank because i plan on running it off a bulk tank. i also plan on an elevated foundation as recomended. it makes me sad thinking about the poor people and how little they have. i wish they could get up to where we are. but then again what glimpses we have here of the past are usually our best examples to have stood the test of time. the best barns, best old houses, best old factories. leading us to believe this country has always been this good. if you really study old pics of a old logging camp or leather tannery with shanty town beside it i wonder if it was closer to india or china here 130 years ago than we would like to admit. i have a series of books called "echos from oil country". written first hand by an engine mechanic about his exploits in the western pa oilfields in the 1880. if you think you are a mechanic you won't after reading what he did with so little to work with. cutting new flywheel keys in the woods with nothing but a cold chisel and file. truing non parallel crank pins with files. casting new parts in the field with a home made foundry made from sand from the local creek, using the cracked flywheel as both the pattern and then breaking it up and melting it down to reuse the cast iron in his mold. i bought the books from lindseys when they were still in business. i think oldtimey book store has his stuff now.
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some more progress pics. I got the engine all torn down and made a frame to lay out the bolt pattern. what is the small bolt hole beside the compression release? is that just there just for the factory when they drilled the oil hole in the top of the cam carrier?
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/012_zpsqg5igpem.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/012_zpsqg5igpem.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/014_zpsxphr9ev7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/014_zpsxphr9ev7.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/013_zpsrlm9trti.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/013_zpsrlm9trti.jpg.html)
I also made some better J bolts because the ones supplied with the engine had very poorly cut threads and i didn't want them to strip out or something and they can't be replaced. note the scraps of conduit on the bolts. this makes it so you can move the bolt from side to side it you are off a little on positioning. they will get filled in when grouting.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/015_zps7z7z6bkq.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/015_zps7z7z6bkq.jpg.html)
then i got the hole dug and the forms built for the pedestal yesterday. i was pretty tempted to just lay that form on top of the bricks but decided to go ahead and dig the 24" hole under it after all. the general engineering of the cs lister is obviously over kill so may as well just stick with it throughout the whole project. i think if lister had designed a picinic table it would have been made of railroad ties and 4x4's lol.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/016_zpsefbv1h3s.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/016_zpsefbv1h3s.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/017_zpsxaghdo5w.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/017_zpsxaghdo5w.jpg.html)
today got the concrete made with my little electric mixer. not bad for being on 2nd shift all week.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/019_zpsk1tcckak.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/019_zpsk1tcckak.jpg.html)
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The little hole is for oil when it hasn't run for a few months. Is there any rebar in that block of concrete? I like how you gave your lister a view.
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no rebar. just standard 6 bag mix in the first half then extra Portland in the last 6" or so. I did toss in some big rocks to make the job go quicker.
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I hope that all-thread won't break sideways through the pour, did you use any reinforcing fiber in the mix or anything to strengthen the concrete ?
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nope no fiber, just extra portland. I am very confident my 2'x3' lump of concrete will be up to the job.
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I will be watching this to see the results.
I am a firm believer in the fiber reinforced concrete.
Those Lister clones will pound the crap out of anything they touch.
I have 2 of them and have spent hours getting them to run smoothly. The single cylinder is
much worse than the twin.
Keep us updated !
Gary
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Oh, did you get the brass/bronze idler gear ?
I will be more than happy to provide you with an offset idler bolt if needed.
Gary
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the engine came with a cast iron gear. DES provided a full set of spare parts and that gear was also cast. i wish i had the bronze one but i think i will put some hours on what i have before i dump any more money into parts. this could easily turn into a rabbit hole. i think as long as i inspect the gear condition during oil change time i will be able to see if it's wearing funny. maybe i will do a prussion blue gear mesh check before i run it just to see if everything seems lined up.
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Dave, aka xyzer, sorted the idler gear failure issue many years ago. His findings: The idler is mislocated in the block, causing way to much play in the gears, and the amount of error is typical Rajkot- all over the map. Dave made several batches of offset idler bolts of various offsets and sold them to fellow CS enthusiasts. I have one in my diesel 6/1.
With some piano wire and a dial gauge it's possible to measure the lash. You will typically find either crank or cam with have huge amount like 0.030 inches instead of the 0.006 you'd like to see. With an offset idler bolt you can fix the tolerance problem.
We used one of 32coupe's offset idler on the DES 8/1 propane conversion engine and I thank him again for his generosity. They work great for moderate errors. It's a bolt with an offset sleeve.
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ok, I will keep that in mind that I am looking for around .006 backlash when I get to putting it back together. how hard to balance are they? or check the balance? I mean I understand a big one lung engine is always going to thump some but shouldn't it be fairly smooth.
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I am also looking for some clearance's . I have heard a few thrown around about striking clearance (.45 for my 8/1 from my manual that came with it in the crate) and crank pin clearance (.0015-.003 from here on this forum) but am looing for the thrust clearance between the crank and the main bushings. I see that the Indians had a small piece of gasket under the top of one bushing carrier to shim the top out away from the main frame. as well as multiple gaskets stacked on every thing on the whole engine. I have forgotten the thumb rules in the manuals I used to have access to when I serviced IR gas line compressors but I thought it was .001" per inch of shaft diameter. I also worked on AJAX engines and they had all splash lube oil systems. from rebuilding many engines I learned that more stuff got trashed with tight clearance than loose so I always erred on the loose side on the engines I worked on. piston ring end gaps close up as rings heat up and scuff cyl walls, rods and pistons expand out and close up striking clearnces as they heat up ect ect....
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I don't have the clearances handy but will look for them if someone doesn't chime in.
The idler gear setup.....what I found was the gears (crank, idler, cam) are not round. The clearances will change
as the crank turns because the gears are slightly egg shaped. Setup requires some "feel" for the clearance with
a happy medium for the final set.
The offset idler bolt is your best bet.
The side plates holding the crank bearings will be the same thing. Gaskets will be stacked up on both sides
to achieve the proper side clearance. I don't remember the desired clearance but it is also necessary to get
the crank centered in the block during the process.
The bearing holders are so large that you will see that as you tighten them down things will change.
My twin has brushed bearings instead of rollers. I had to get the side thrust close then tighten the bearing holders
gradually as I turned the crank for the best clearance. As I tightened the holders I could feel the drag on.the bearing/bushing and ended up with the least drag/best feel. Rollers will be a little more forgiving.
I made a stack of side Gaskets then soaked them in oil before installing them. Several thicknesses are necessary.
File folder paper and note book paper and brown paper bags make great gasket material . It will take several attempts to get it correct. I used a magnetic dial indicator for.the final adjustment.
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I wanted to add If I remember correctly I spent about a day just setting the crank.
I am the slow and cautious type so I'm sure someone here could do it in an hour or so.
These beasts are just 3rd world junk as compared to the real thing being Genuine Lister.
I have NO experience with real Lister's and in fact have never even seen one that I recall.
The Indian stuff makes a great toy and many here have had great success. Many failures
have been noted as well. Some catastrophic failures will arise with even the best builders/assemblers.
At 62 with a day or 2 of engine work for more years than I care to remember, again I think the
clones are at best a great toy. I just wouldn't want to have to rely on them.
Any engine will be a crap shoot. Some live some don't. Proper setup with close tolerances are all one can
hope for. These engines are just so plagued with problems that the probably of having problems with them
is almost guaranteed at some point.
I will add that setting the crank can be very rewarding. When you get it installed and the clearances are
correct turning that monster by hand and feeling the crank "float" is a great feeling. The downside is that every
single stage of assembly has to be done in this fashion. You cant trust any of the clearances to be correct.
Every surface has to be checked for parallel /square. Some have noted 1/2 gaskets on side plates and the same
at the bottom of the jug to get things to line up.
Patience and thinking will be your best friend.....
After rambling on, I will amble off.....
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I am hopeing to make my clone as good as an original lister. trying to think of it as a 90% finished kit engine. I guess I underestimated how far from the real thing they are.......
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There is a wide range of experiences with these... don't be dissuaded by the few disasters. We tend to hear a lot less about the success stories, but those ARE the majority for certain.
crankshaft end float should be around .005" to .010"
cylinder head clearance (bump) height should be .075" to .080" for your 8/1
dieselgman
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+1 The important thing is to go through everything carefully. 38ac's engine build piece is fantastic. My older Metro 6/1 is pushing 3000 hrs this year. I had issues only because I didn't do the complete rebuild up front. I had sand filled grease under the piston crown, and a cylinder liner that projected too much and thus head gaskets failed regularly, and a crooked connecting rod. Those who just clean the sump and run them are the ones who may have some surprises, not likely with a serious build. It's just SO much easier to go over everything ONCE, before you put it in service, that I highly recommend that approach.
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Don't let me discourage you.
Gary's engines have a reputation for being better units than most.
He also has an excellent track record of standing behind his products.
The thing is to be careful with every step during assembly. And more
importantly is to have fun with it !
Everyone here will be more than happy to give guidance and help in any way we can.
The offset bolt I offered will definitely help with gear adjustment. I have given several away so
it's not like I'm trying to make money from them. If you have a lathe they are easy to make and
we can guide you through the process if you have questions.
Have fun with it. When you see/hear that thing fire up it makes all the stress/worry melt away !!
Gary
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I am making some very good progress and enjoying myself. I spent about 4 hours over the past few days with the harbor freight mini needle scaler and it worked fantastic! i was able to get to all spots inside the case. That was good advice and i sure am glad i did it. There was some low hanging fruit like corners of the gov recess ect where you could see pockets of sand but there were also some real surprises. as i needle gun'd along the bottom there were places that looked good and the white paint would blow away and i would get into 1/8" of mill scale or sand or whatever the black dust is. hard to imagine that you would run a factory putting engines together, casting parts and finish machining them with no plan to clean them before assembly. they sloped a light coat of white primer or something in there so on some level they were trying. i draw filed all the machined surfaces and wire wheeled them then wiped the frame out with solvent. i have chosen not to paint the inside red since it has been exposed to oil and i feel the risk of paint flaking off and gumming up the works is higher than the reward of having red paint.
Then last night I cleaned assembled the crankshaft support bushing houseings. again they looked fine but when the nedlle scaler went across them sand and scale just flowed off them. I then held an 18" starret level up against the vertical part of the frame where the bearings bolt and laid a starret square on the top and only a tiny bit of light was visible so i am calling that square enough. I assembled the main bushing hoseings metal to metal without the crank. tightened them up then took a set of inside mics and measured the top bottom front and back clearince between the bushing thrust surfaces. bushings were about .003 tighter at top than bottom. measured crank with a big set of 6-9" mics at work and they show that the gear is not on quite square, off again by about. .003 from top to bottom. did the math for my shims and came up with .122 difference. divided by 2 is .061. the indians had .060 of gaskets on both sides with a .004 shim on the top. the measurements show how the bushings were closer on top than bottom so somebody over there was on the ball and aware of the issue. I made new gaskets out of 1/16" garlock (.062") then assembled the whole assembly with crank this time and it would bind a little bit as a rotated the crank through the top, even though feeler gauges showed .004 clearance all the way around. I made one more paper shim out of .005 and installed it and now it spins real nice. falls right to the bottom under it's own weight so I called the crank good to go with .010 of thrust clearance as measured with feeler gauges.
This morning i put the idler gear in and temporarly installed the cam since you got me worried about them now. at a glance i would be totally happy with that backlash. i have been into tractor transmissions that had gears this size to move the whole machine with way more backlash than this. I ran a piece of lead solder through the idler and crank gears and get bits of lead .008-.010 thick. then ran a bit of lead solder through the idler to cam gear and got .010-.018 thick. i can't imagine taking the time to build an offset bolt to close it up .006 would make the difference of a tinkers ass in hell. If those gears are junk they are junk. I did have a bit of white paint on one of the gears from when i took it out. i reached in with the wire wheel to clean it off and you could clearly see the marks from the wire wheel in the gear tooth i touched so they are super soft, usually a file will just skate off a gear tooth. so i guess i will just run it for a while and if they look like they are wearing i will make myself a whole set of gears from scratch. I have the tooling and have always wanted to make a gear. I know you can buy gear blanks to machine your self. here is the project as it sits now after a lot of cleaning.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/001_zpsn6cqqm0b.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/001_zpsn6cqqm0b.jpg.html)
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/002_zpscqcsn3i5.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/construction%20projects/lister%20generator%20project/002_zpscqcsn3i5.jpg.html)
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Looks good ! It sounds like you pretty much know what you are doing.
A lot of the guys had little or no engine experience and it does help.
The reason we paint the inside is because, as you have found out, the castings may
be porous and leak through.
Keep us updated ! Again, looks good !
Gary
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I forgot to mention one of the things that happens is when the engine is running
the cam gear will slap back and forth between the intake and exhaust lobes.
In other words the gears will be riding on one side during part of the cycle then will slap
over to the other side of the gear until the cam starts to rinse on the next lobe.
I don't know if I explained this perfectly but if you play with it you will see what is going on.
Gary
I'm not that familiar with Gary's engines, do you have an oil pump on yours ?
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yes it has an oil pump. but i wish it had the handle like the original listers to prime the system before you start it. i wonder how hard it would be to add an oil pump handle to it. i guess you can just spin the engine a few times and that gets oil going but it would be nice.
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My single doesn't have a pump but my twin does.
Check the check valve balls and seats...my twin took some work to get it going.
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Take a look at your casting near the pump and see if it has the boss drilled and tapped or not... we have provided the priming handle on some of our past projects as an option and could do the same for this one if desired.
Original Dursley built machines also had the insides nicely coated with a resilient paint... if nothing else, it makes clean-out a little easier.
dieselgman
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no it's not drilled but I did see the flat machined surface and thought it would be very easy to do so. If someone posted some dimensions I am sure I could easily make a handle. I know what you mean about the paint, they say it also encapsulates particals of sand you may have missed and I know it brightens up a crankcase when you are working in it. some websites suggest it helps splashed oil run to the bottom of the sump faster. I even have a leftover can of glyptol here from another project but I just feel the risk of it shedding off over the years is too great on cast that has been exposed to oil. But then again how many times have you marked gears and con-rods and piston crowns with a paint stick and that seems to never come off when you get back into an engine. In any event it is too late now as I have wiped the bare cast iron with a coat of engine oil to prevent corrosion and I don't want to go back in with the solvent.
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The Glyptol works great on a freshly hot-tanked casting that is oil-free. You are probably right about a questionable bond to an oily casting though.
dieselgman
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We've had no trouble with the spray on red electrical varnish (glyptol type) in my neighbors DES 8/1 propane conversion engine. It was detergent pressure washed after being ground smooth inside. Slick hard finish and makes it easy to wipe down.
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Whilst I greatly admire the clever work around solutions devised to date to overcome some of the more serious deficiencies on Indian sourced engines such as eccentric idler gear bolts. Together with the expertise forum members such as Butch have been willing to share on this forum (particularly the solution to addressing camshaft valve timing problems).
I am hopeing to make my clone as good as an original lister. trying to think of it as a 90% finished kit engine.
I still hold the opinion that no amount of fettling and burnishing will get you that close to the the quality of a genuine CS.
Why?
Because it is not the defects that you can see and measure for yourself in your home workshop and hopefully rectify or work around, its the hidden stuff that will ultimately catch you out.
Such as:
Raw materials not within the required specification causing lack of surface hardness and or lower material strength of critical components.
Due to raw material feed stock comprising largely of scrap steel, combined with limited material analysis at the micro foundries producing these parts. The presence of undesirable elements such as Lead, Phosphorous and Sulfur (to name a few) in finished raw materials which do not meet the specification for the particular grade of steel required.
Poor quality forgings that have had hidden slag inclusions introduced due to poor quality forging practices, thus allowing forging flash to be recombined with the raw forging. Hence creating stress raisers and ideal starting points for fatigue fractures in rotating or reciprocating assemblies.
Surface finish Ra values not sufficient on critical bearing surfaces.
I could go on, but I think the above starts to give you an idea, of what potentially can be hiding inside one of these engines (I am not saying all Indian sourced engines are like this, because a reliable Indian supplier if given sufficient inducement, will selectively assemble a batch of engines for export to contain what he believes to be the best quality components based upon his prevoius experience of his component suppliers products, also other factors come into play such as how much he values repeat business from the same source verses the extra work load western ideas of quality assurance place upon him).
If like I do, and as detailed in this post: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7667.0 you had sight of a comprehensive strip and evaluation report of an Indian sourced Lister CS clone engine [carried out by no less than Lister Petter themselves], then it would be of considerable interest to anyone who is involved with one these engines.
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The DES engines that go through my operations get a priming lever. Gary has them in stock. Because it is non-critical I have not tried to make science out of locating the hole for the pivot bolt. I do it by using a properly fitting transfer punch in place of the pivot bolt. Locate the lever where it would appear to function correctly and give the transfer punch a good hit. Then before drilling use the transfer punch as your pivot by holding it inward against the mark and work the lever. If OK drill and tap. If not you simply peen the mark flat, then move things accordingly and center punch another.
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had sight of a comprehensive strip and evaluation report of an Indian sourced Lister CS clone engine [carried out by no less than Lister Petter themselves], then it would be of considerable interest to anyone who is involved with one these engines.
I agree, that the basic materials and practices employed in India are not able to measure up to the original QC practices put in place when Lister/Petter built these engines in England. Even when given the original fully detailed specs the financial and practical realities of that Indian cottage industry are probably still going to control everything. I have some hope for the modern higher-volume parts improving from recent stocks... just not much incentive on the lower end of the scale though such as the antiques we are dealing with. It is hard (or impossible) to direct and control much in the way of change without some very serious funding put forth.
It will be very interesting to see how the new Lister/Petter fares with sourcing almost everything in India and China... I happen to know that they are now stocking and branding a lot of the stuff that they would have rejected a short time ago. I also know that many improvements in critical parts have been pushed through in that country and this will benefit the industry as a whole. The recent loss of most of the long established manufacturing base cannot bode well for the quality of the current L/P product line. We can only hope that the new owners and company will be motivated and successful with bringing back a high-quality product worthy of the name Lister/Petter.
dieselgman
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Lucky Brits with lots of old CS's around to pick from...none to be found here in the southwestern US. So if you want a low speed engine you have to make do with a Rajkot kit, despite the well known issues. I also note that many original CS owners are using Rajkot parts...
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the old saying "trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear" comes to mind. I got some of the oil system put together. I never really had to work with straight pipe treads before (they seem like a stupid idea) so i covered them with pipe dope and sandwiched o-rings on the back of the fittings. copper washers would have been better but my assortment does not go that big.
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And then i noticed this problem with the oil feed pipeing. It's hard to see in the pic but this is where the oil pipe was when i took it apart. as you can see it seats on the right in the bevel but on the left it pushes so far in that it covers the tube to the bearing. i have a couple creative solutions but I was wondering how you guys handled the cross over tube. It also it appears the dipper is on wrong, i believe it should be set up like a knife not like a paddle.
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Lucky Brits with lots of old CS's around to pick from...none to be found here in the southwestern US. So if you want a low speed engine you have to make do with a Rajkot kit, despite the well known issues.
We have around a dozen or so original Dursley machines in Kansas - available for rebuilds. I have been holding on for many years, but it is time to lighten that load a bit. Price range $2500 to $7500 depending on condition.
dieselgman
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Hi GB,
My feeling re the dipper: Place it sideways and look at oil consumption/blue smoking when running - if the splash is too much, it will overcome the capabilities of the oil control rings and cause you to burn oil. If your rings can cope with the additional splash, the more oil flying around and wetting things, the better....(I ultimately replaced the flat with a hollow dipper lubricator I made up, all in all, about as wide as the widest it could be...) Incidentally, I noticed much better warming of the oil and crankcase with a wide dipper...Something I wanted because of the WI system I have in place for the carbon buildup...
Regarding the link tube: I shortened mine a few mm and then silver soldered it into the RHS holder... This allowed for it to be held in position positively when things were tightened into place. The only drawback is that to remove a standpipe, you have to remove both sides together by telescoping them together and removing them as a a "pair" - small price to pay for peace of mind...
Maybe others have better solutions...
Cheers
Ed
Edit:
Whilst doing the oil system, why don't you put a spin on oil filter behind the IP side flywheel? Its a small but very worthwhile (in my opinion) mod to either:
a) Utilize the detergent properties of modern oils
b) Extend your oil change interval
c) Give a bit more peace of mind
...-...OR...-...
d) All of the above!!
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It will be very interesting to see how the new Lister/Petter fares with sourcing almost everything in India and China... I happen to know that they are now stocking and branding a lot of the stuff that they would have rejected a short time ago. I also know that many improvements in critical parts have been pushed through in that country and this will benefit the industry as a whole.
In the UK it is at least possible to identify items originating from this source, as the new style packaging now features QR codes.
the old saying "trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear" comes to mind.
So does " you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter" ;D
I never really had to work with straight pipe treads before (they seem like a stupid idea) so i covered them with pipe dope and sandwiched o-rings on the back of the fittings. copper washers would have been better but my assortment does not go that big.
Nothing wrong with BSP parallel threads, when used in the correct context, what you have experienced is yet another perfect example of the Indians deviating from the original Dursley design, with no thought given to its consequences. On a genuine Lister CS engine, the coarse oil filter strainer fitting has a shoulder which then has a fibre washer fitted between it and the crankcase to form an oil tight seal. The threaded elbow on the threaded end that screws into the oil strainer boss would originally been a BSP taper thread.
Whilst on the subject of thread forms, I don't understand why the Indians do not offer NPT threaded components for water and exhaust flanges as an option for those customers in the Americas.
I also note that many original CS owners are using Rajkot parts...
From a UK perspective, that is certainly true to an extent. Most of these products are been bought by people who show these engines, and do not use them intensively. Conversely other users who need an engine to provide reliable power are still very wary of using Indian sourced parts.
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Your cross over tube is another example of why I preach to take nothing for granted and take the engine completely down.
The tube should be shortened so it does not cover the LH supply tube when it is against the stop in the RH fitting. It also should have enough bend that it is held in place once the RH fitting is tightened.
Your oil supply fittings are per OEM. It's not how things were done here in the states but A good supply of sealing washers or the means to make them is a necessity when working on a CS or clone or any other European engine. I dont like your fix but if it holds oil it is hard to argue with.
The dipper in a oil pump equipped engine goes longways, period. The amount of oil moving around inside of the engine is incredible due to the oil coming from the mains running out the throws and being flung every where.. It does not need to be assisted by a sideways mounted dipper. In fact Lister severely limited the oil coming from the longways mounted dipper with a tray mounted between it and the crankshaft that is equipped with a narrow slot. A fact check for the show me crowd (of which I am one ;D) is to start your engine and let it run for one minute, then shut it down and quickly remove the crank case door. Hint ,have plenty of rags ready to use.
I do not subscribe to the more oil moving cant hurt theory. In fact there is good reason to NOT increase the splash, one being oil consumption past the rings but perhaps larger is the fact that your only means of dirt separation is settlement in the sump.
TRB engines that do not have an oil pump and the associated splash nor the tray under the dipper still do not need a sideways dipper. I have switched every engine that I have ever had my fingers in and a far as I know they are all still running, some every day. The other reason for doing so is sideways mounted dippers are known to break off when the engine is run in cold temps with thick oil.
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I was worried about the fatigue of the oil dipper also, another fact with a splash system is oil foaming if too high a level is carried or too big of a dipper is used. so yes sometimes less is more. I did make an oil pump handle. I used an old pin spanner that was getting tossed at work. It broke my heart to cut up a williams wrech but i guess it's better than the fate it had in the metal junk dumpster at work. Here is my oil pipe solution. i drilled out the fittings and brazed bent copper pipes into them, the bends allow me to flex them a little to put the compression connector in the middle. I also made a better tappet guide hold down clamp on the mill. The next REAL BIG problem is the rod bearing. the crank mics at 4.998 and 4.9975. nice and round and even as far as i am concerned. but the hole in rod is all out of round and bigger on one side than the other. once the bearing is installed it flexes it out of round as well. the india soulution was .018 of shims on it to get a good clearnce at the tightest point. ( i bet they just go by feel and shim till it's not binding up.) i wonder if i could use my sunnen hone on the inside of the bearing with it torqued up to get it round. i don't dare hone the rod bearing bore out because it allready mics bigger than the rod bearing itself. I am not sure how i can get any bearing crush with that setup. any ideas? here are some numbers,
BEARING SHELL O.D------2.750
ROD BORE WITH CAP TORQUED ON IN VICE-------2.758 diagonal both ways, vertical 2.754 on right 2.752 on left
BEARING BORE INSTALLED IN ROD WITH CAP TORQUED. NO SHIMS---- diagonal 2.502 & 2.496, vertical 2.502 on right 2.498 on left
BEARING BORE INSTALLED IN ROD WITH .009 SHIM. diagonal 2.498 2.502, vertical 2.505 both sides
note: how the side to side deviation goes away once the shims are added. that makes me think once i start shimming the bearing is only touching on the sides not on the top and bottom due to the lack of crush and the also the fact that the supplied shims don't go in between the bearings. I will have to cut my own out.
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I like your work!
Replace or re-size the conrod big end. It is common practice to take a slight shave off the mating faces and then re-hone the internal diameter to proper size (accounting for bearing crush). There are specialized tools for this in many rebuild shops. Our Alaska shop has one, but no one there at the moment to do the work. If you want to try another conrod, just let me know.
dieselgman
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Yep, that is some nice work !
Love the hold down.
Gary
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i think I may take you up on your offer gary, sort of feels like giveing up though. :'( I started to imagine ways to fabricate a clamping jig for the conrod using the wristpin bushing. I figured I could tram a pin on the mill and clamp the rod with that then I could set my hone up in the mill and hone it out. since it would be clamped with the wirst pin hole that would ensure both bores were parallel and resize the big end in one shot. but while getting set up I noticed a split in the wrist pin bushing. where they pressed it in. so......hmm I guess I will give you a call tomorrow.
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pressed that bushing out this morning to see what the divet in it was, looks like that seam was there on purpose. like the kind of bushing you would see in a cheap shock absorber or vulcanized into a rubber bushing not what you would expect in an enigne, the spare i recieved with the engine looks much better. also noticed a small hole in the surface of the cyl. not sure if i could just fill that in with lead before i put the head gasket on. wish it was farther away from the cyl bore.
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I have not been able to find an OEM spec for either of the rod bores. I have some "specs" that I came up with using measurements and assumptions but I cant lay my fingers on them at the moment. The taper in the rod bore is both understandable and explainable, basically bad practice and or worn out equipment. Out of round however is difficult to achieve with a hone. It would appear that they either honed that big end with one or two of the small OEM shims in place? or perhaps a generous amount of sand and grit? That would explain both the out of round and taper. It is also possible that rods and caps were switched after honing. Anyway I think you are on the right track by starting with another rod.
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The steel-backed gudgeon pin bushing (with the split) is in keeping with the more modern design technology. It is easier to install, but must be done with care and then reamed to size for your wrist-pin.
We have not found a published spec for the rod big-end either. Just rod journals... the rest must be derived from the engineering norms I suppose.
I am sending out a new replacement connecting rod plus another cylinder block to deal with that hidden pin-hole in the water jacket. Better to assume that it is porous in more than one spot than to try and repair and have potential future problems.
dieselgman
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Hey Gus
I don't know what head gasket you have but if it is a stock Indian type we have found if you soak
it in "mop and glow" then let it dry for a.day or 2 it will help with the weaping the stock type gaskets
are prone to do.
Gary
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first off big thanks to gary from Diesel electric service for sending out the new parts, it's not their fault the indian quality is so bad but they are replaceing them anyway and i really appreciate it. not a lot of places would do that. When i need parts for my LR1 or my listeroid they will be my first call. while i wait for parts i thought i would grout the engine frame so it has some time to set up. never done one before but always wanted to. once i got it in position i spent the morning with a machinist level and some washers and shim stock. then built a frame for the grout. then mixed it up in a bucket with a drill powered mixer. i thought i had it about right so i tried to work it in and it wouldn't flow. went and added some more water and tried again and still no go. then i added a bunch of water. under the mixer it looks so fluid but once i got to the frame it was about like melty soft soft serve ice cream. by then the first stuff i put in was getting stiff and i could see time was of the essence. i had to work real hard with a tuck pointing trowel all the way around pushing it in. it would have been way better with a helper on the other side and we could have worked our way around. better yet would have been to mix it up way wetter than i did. in addition to my other mistakes the frame was so close to the engine that i couldn't just pour it of the bucket i had to sort of swish it out of a coffee can. in the end i had a mess. i then went around with a sponge and a trowel cleaning with the clean corner of the sponge and then rinsing it in a bucket. a little tedious but better than trying to get hardened grout off the engine. we will see how it works out. things i learned: make the frame bigger so it's easy to pour it in, make the grout plenty wet, have your trowels and sponges ready because grout sets up fast. a helper would be nice.....
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Looking good!
You should use 38ACs very effective method of getting your flywheel counterbalance weights adjusted and matched. With the bedded concrete mount it will make fine tuning the balance either unnecessary or a very minor job. Just add to both counterbalance weights if you feel the floor vibrating, or opposite the counterbalance if the head is moving fore and aft too much. On my neighbor's DES 8/1 we were quite good without any extra weight at all, just the weights needed to adjust counterweight to where it's supposed to be and matching the two flywheels. I always add lead instead of drilling, due to laziness.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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I definitely want to balance the flywheels, I have studied many of the old posts here on the methods used to weigh and balance the counterweight on the engine. What is the consensus on the best balancing factor? 67% of the reciprocating mass was posted for the 6/1 is it the same for the 8/1?
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Yes the after sale support from DES is second to none.
The best balance number will vary depending on your exact operating RPM. The 6/1 percentage is not the same as an 8/1 due to cast iron piston vs aluminum. The aluminum piston engines are much easier to get settled own and more forgiving of changes in RPM.
I have not spent much time with a calculator nor kept written records so I cant even give you a ballpark figure. If you have read my posts (rants?) on the subject I put a lot of effort into getting the offset weight in the correct relationship with the crank throw and the same amount for both flywheels. From there it is a 15 minute job to settle the engine down nicely by what most here know as the Mr X method
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some more progress. I bought an old 1940's L model gravely oil filter housing and mounted it on the side of the engine. some re-bending of the tubing and scrounging for fittings. I didn't want to mount it upside down but the direction of the flow sort of forced me too. In the end i was glad it worked out this way because the holes i drilled and tapped went into the open void under the crank case floor and i didn't have to deal with sealing up any oil leaks. i was sort of on the fence about pissing with the head but decided to clean the valve stems and it was a good thing i did. i had a tough time getting the intake valve out. had to drive it through due to so much paint. it would have bent a pushrod and then stuck open if i had tried to just run it.once i had it apart i reground the valve seats and valves. you can see on the left the intake valve after i ground it before lapping while on the right the exaust valve as fit by india. grinding the seats came out nice but just a bit low in the seat. i wish it had come out in the middle of the seat. i guess when i de-coke at 1000 hours i will check it out good and decide if i want to learn how to put new seats into the head.
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I am unable to tell from the pics but on 1 of my engines the valve guides were reversed !
The exhaust guide will have a recessed area.
Gary
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Hmm i didn't even look at that, guess i will have to take it back apart.
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I never liked the way India does the valve seats and prior to being tooled up to install hardened seats I would custom dress a stone so as to (slightly) lay the top of the pocket/seat away from the valve and also used a 60 degree stone to get rid of the bottom thus leaving a prim and proper narrow seat at the correct location on the valve. While the wide seats will function they cause problems long term with carbon holding the valve up and this leakage. This doesnt show up running, only when you try to start the engine cold, especially after sitting a spell. Be mindful of the valve recession spec, its important.
32
I have also noted switched guides on a couple singles. The #1 head for a twin is a mirror of #2, same head with guides switched,
Butch
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Hi GB,
Watch out for the oil filter being inverted as there are a few reasons I would cite .... Filling and priming the filter prior to initial installation is problematic.... Airlocks would become a problem and could stuff you around... Personally, I would rather go with an inverted U type bracket and turn the filter over - Another reason for correct mounting is to allow for water or moisture to be trapped in the bottom of the filter - As it is currently mounted, you will probably reintroduce any water picked up in solution straight back into the sump.
Just my thoughts....
Cheers
Ed
Edit: Something was nagging me...Guys, shoot me down or confirm my thoughts...
The filter you are using probably has a bypass relief spring in it - as soon as the filter clogs, the element can ride away from the seal area(which is normally on top) and allow oil to flow past the internal sealing surface to the outlet of the filter housing. If you have any debris(read that as crap) that has settled at or around this bypass seal area after a few hours/days/weeks of running, will have an express route to your bearings if the bypass feature on the filter activates through being clogged(most likely) or heavy pulsing from the pump when the oil is thick and cold... in short..... DON'T RUN IT AS IT STANDS!!
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Balancing the 8/1 engine.
I feel like I am coming a bit late to the party. While researching this I came across a lot of posts, older posts so maybe I missed the big surge when these engines started arriving but I will post my experience anyway. I first started trying to learn about balancing. I read posts here, post on single cyl motorcycle engines, big block Chevy’s, racing lawnmowers with single cyl kohlers. I learned how you balance 50% of the reciprocating mass and 100% of the rotating mass. Any more than 50 will turn a hopper into a slider. But in real life some v twins and motorcycles are going up to 70 or 80 and really smoothing out. I learned that a single cyl engine will always be a bit of a thumper. Even fitted with balancing shafts. But I felt like something was missing, most of what I read was talking about counterweighted crank shafts. Weight right on the crank. Not big flywheels. I remember learning in school about how if you taped a penny to a 48” steam turbine blade the high rpm and the distance from center are like astronomical. The weight of a penny is over 2 tons of force on the turbine blades. Then I came across this equation in a model steam engine forum.
“I found a formula in an old public domain book, as follows for calculating the counterbalance weight(s) for steam engines, as follows:
Equation for minimizing engine vibration:
W1 = [K*(W2+W3)*r] / X
where:
W1 = weight of the counterweight (lbs.)
W2 = weight of the crank webs outside of the main shaft and crank pin (lbs.)
W3 = weight of reciprocating parts (piston, piston rod, crosshead, one half the weight of the connecting rod) (lbs.)
X = distance of center of mass of counterweight from center of the crankshaft (inches)
K = constant (use 0.67 for minimum vibration at right angles to the engine centerline, use 0.75 for minimum vibration at crank dead center)
r = distance from center of crankshaft to center of crank pin (inches)
Generally, vertical engines should tend toward using the 0.67 value for "k", and horizontal engines should tend towards using the 0.75 value for "k".
So I took some measurements on my des 8/1:
Aluminum Piston, rings, piston pin and cir clips= 4pounds 7.30z
Entire rod with bushing and bearing 8pounds 12.2 oz.
Bushing end 3pounds 20z
Bearing end 6pounds 3oz
Estimated weight of crankpin based on 2.5” diameter and 5.5” length 7.65 pounds
Bore 4.49” stroke 5.49”
Then remembering to divide the bore by 2 and converting all the oz. into decimals I crunched the numbers in the equation and came up with the following recommended counterweight on 24” flywheel.
W1= .67(7.65+8.837)2.745/12”
W1=2.455 pounds.
So feeling like I had a starting point I moved from what my coworkers call “theory and bullshit” and started on the flywheels. Using the forklift forks with a strip of ¼” key stock on the and an old 2” pin from a backhoe bucket I proceeded to balance as can be found here and on you tube. Not the most accurate rig but with a bucket and string and kitchen scale I came up with the following initial numbers
Front flywheel: total weight 137#, key on bottom when on rack but 1 degree to left of center, counterweight 2.35pounds
Back flywheel: total weight 136.5#, key on bottom when on rack 1 degree to right. Counterweight 2.4437 pounds.
It was neat to see those numbers match up so close to my calculated value. I assume that some engineer in India calculated out the counterweight and designed it into the casting or it was there by luck when they copied the original.
From there I started with the lighter back wheel and instead of drilling holes I used a grinder. Given the shitty look of the cutouts it was no hardship. I cleaned up the insides of triangular holes until it hung straight. Then I took a measurement with the bucket and found the new counter weight was 2.506#. I then proceeded to make the heavy front wheel match the back.
Granted I have spent many hours welding and fabricating but I found it surprisingly easy to remove a pound with a grinder once you start. As soon as you touch it and the paint and putty blows away the natural instinct to contour it, smooth it and grind away the casting sand takes over. It worked out real nice in lowering the weight of the heavier front wheel. I only removed material from the side I needed to get it to hang straight. This both lowered the overall weight of the wheel, corrected the tilt as well as giving the counterweight more of an effect on the wheel. Essentially making it heavier to match the rear wheel.
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I have run 4 of the DES 8/1s through the shop and all of them had the total offset weight pretty close to right but weight was not in the correct relationship to the crank throw due to the key ways not being cut in the right place. That is every bit as important as getting the weight right. The 50% number is going to be too low on any single cylinder engine I think unless it has a very light weight piston and rod. I measured and calculated a very smooth running 6/1 Lister a few years ago but all of that has left me now, I think that I posted some of the information here on the forum.
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Once you have adjusted counterweight locations to match the key and matched them in total counterweight per 38ACs method, it is trivial to fine tune the total counterbalance. If it moves fore and aft, decrease counterweight. If it hops, increase counterweight. Increments of 4 oz on each flywheel are useful.
I've used the Mr X method in the past, and it does work, but 38ACs method is much faster and easier.
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so how close to the right position is good enough? i got 1 side perfect and the other side is like 1 degree off from being at the bottom. is that close enough?
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In my shop that would be called good ;)
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got the new parts from DES. after some shimming and head scratching i started to install them. I am coming up with a bump clearance of .075 back side .085 front (gov side) of piston. i leveled the top of the frame with a machinist level before i grouted it. now with a cyl on the frame when i place a level on the cyl top it now it shows the back higher than the front. a tool makers level against the side of the cyl shows the top of the cyl being off square to the bore. i am inclined to run it like this because i figure the piston is going up and down straight it should just be the head off level by .010. perhaps i should try my other cyl and see how it looks. (the one with the pin hole) i am just feeling lazy and not wanting to fight the piston rings into the cyl again. any thoughts?
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FWIW I would say if the crank is perpendicular to the bore and the rod is parallel to the bore it doesn't matter if the head is "on an angle" No lateral loads on the bore/piston. Just an idiot's viewpoint
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How much (thinkness) gasket under the cylinder? If it's 25 mils or less you need that cylinder trimmed anyway.
Having the head true to the bore is not critical, I think, but bump clearance sure is. I had to have my older Metro cylinder cut down more than yours.
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The bottom of the cylinder block needs to be square to the bore. The top is not as critical and 010 across the top means nothing operationally. Squish will vary side to side for a dozen reasons only two of which should be corrected, the others should be ignored and the squish averaged which in your case puts you right at the top end of the spec. The engine will sart and run fine with 080 bump unless the valves are burried in the head. If you want to reduce the bump and don't have the thinnest gasket under the cylinder then install one. If so remove the gasket and replace it with a bead of silicone sealer. You of course can have the cylinder machined if you desire.
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i put one .032 gasket under the cyl. the head gasket is .050 the clearance is right where i want (.075-.080 for aluminum piston). I have a 16" lathe and i think i could chuck the cyl in my4 jaw chuck do runout off the inside and take a faceing cut.
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Sorry, forgot the bump is bigger for the aluminum 8/1. Over .530" on my neighbors propane 8/1 conversion so I forgot.
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the clearance is right where i want (.075-.080 for aluminum piston).
The bump difference between the 6/1 and the 8/1 are due the lack of a compression change over valve in the 8/1 and have nothing to do with the piston material.
Having machine tools handy is a big plus when working on a 'roid. I have a shop full of them and when engines leave my shop they are made as right as they can be made. However my advise here to the do it yourself crowd is always pointed towards what must be fixed to have a reliable engine and what can be left alone. Not many are interested in a cost no object "make it perfect" engine if you get my drift? I just dont wish to come across as suggesting you are wrong in perfecting whatever you can on your build,, ;) I also have some concern that people reading my posts would take them to mean that I advocate sloppy craftsmanship as I do not. I do try to separate myth from fact, what must be done from what can be done. And what is a waste of time, effort and dollars.
Back to your cylinder block and what I would do if it at my shop.
How cylinder blocks are checked and trued depends on what work the bore needs.
Any India or Dursley block with a new or usable bore I use the bore as the starting point. A mandrel is chucked in the lathe and the bottom is then checked with an indicator. Run out less than .005 is called good. Where did that figure come from? By checking Dursley blocks. Actually I no longer check the bottom of most Dursley blocks, they are assumed to be right UNLESS they have been frosted. Once the bottom is checked and made square to the bore the block goes to the horizontal boring machine and into the fixture I use to bore the cylinder. The deck is trammed with an indicator and if needed a light cut is taken true things up. If the block is to be bored and sleeved I skip the trip to the lathe and bolt the block to the fixture and preform all the bore and top deck work using the bottom as the beginning reference point. You can do all of the top and bottom deck work on your lathe using a shop built mandrel and some creative tooling. I use the Ho-bore for the top because it is easier/ quicker than doing it in the lathe.
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I'm confused (my usual state lately), and I don't get less so searching old posts on bump clearances. The Listeroid and clone 6/1's with no changeover valve are spec'd with 0.045-0.050 bump, I think. The only difference I"m aware of for the 8/1's are the aluminum piston and rpm.
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Bruce,
That's because there has been some pure bunk posted about the subject and add to that the Indians deciding to mess with the plug design for reasons only they know. Easiest way to come to understanding is to forget 6/1 vs 8/1 as rated HP and RPM or piston material has no bearing upon bump spec. The compression ratio for a CS is the same with the plug (at least the plugs that match OEM which includes the DES clones) or the change over valves screwed in. Lister increased the bump on the plug equipped engines as a compromise between the starting compression ratio and running ratios on a COV equipped engine. The actual numbers are on the spec page on my build thread. Lots of the engines were, are are still run with the COV turned in and never messed with. So the unanswered question in my mind is this, Is the increase in bump necessary? Cant say for certain but it stands to reason that it would be less stressful on the inner workings.
Butch
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This is an oops ::)
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Thanks, Butch! My older Metro 6/1 is one of those Listeroids with the non-Lister plug design which allows them to spec 0.050.
I'm beginning to see the wisdom in DES's choice of Lister or Lister clone only.
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well i dont' know if i am on the right track. I may be splitting hairs here. i have never measured all this stuff on any of the lawnmowers, dirtbikes, gravelys ect i have rebuilt. just sort of bolt the jug and head on and never even thought about it. so i don't feel like I have a baseline to say "shit i've seen worse" LOL. plus I been on night shift for the last 10 days and now I am on my 5 day off. gets to sort of feeling like a zombie and the brain does stupid things. long story short i just put it together and am going to run it. here are some measurements i took. i am not a machinist but i play one on the weekends. ;D
i measured the length of the new cyl and it was within 1 or 2 thousands of being paralell with my big dial calipers, I would call that good. then i put a little surface plate on my mill (because the table is pretty beat up) and tramed the mill. sort of neat to see the plate is warped like a bannana. 0 in front 0 in back +1 left +1 right. stacked the cyl on it and did a runout on the base (with my good dial that reads out in tenths of thousands). it was within a thousands. then I set the dial up in a bar and went as far into the cyl as the mill would stroke. got 0 left 0 right, +.005 front -.005 back. I would call that off square.
I then measured the length of the old cyl with the big dial calipers. it was off .008 like the base was at an angle, or warped.2 corners were the same 2 were off. then i did a runout on the base as before and it went up and down and up and down. then I stroked into the cyl and it was friggin perfect! withing .00005 on all 4 sides. if i could just bolt it down upside down that one would run sweet. unfortunaltly it has a weird base. just for kicks i put the old cyl on the engine and measured the bump. with one .020 base gasket i got .088 front .080 back. judging that the new cyl gary sent me is only off by .005 front to back, vs .008 on the old one plus the pin hole i chose to run the new cyl. i am pretty sureif i tried to true it up in my lathe it would be a mess because i struggle to grind nice tools. surface quality of everything i touch is shit.
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Re your surface finish problems when preforming machine work.
Speeds and feeds simple as that. Most beginners tend to run way too slow and too light of a feed rate and too shallow depth of cut because they are afraid of getting too deep. The only way past this is practice practice practice. You simply must push the feed speed depth of cut envelope in order to achieve a decent finish in most materials. You must of course have a decent tool but a perfect tool will not finish if not pushed right. Cast iron is more forgiving in all respects.
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what size hoses do i need for anatural circ cooling system, i have a 5 core 24" tall cast iron radiator about 4' to the left and 12" above the engine sitting on a shelf. I cut a hole in the wall behind the rad and plan on putting a 120v ac fan on it hooked to a 210*F thermostat that will kick on if the radiator cant keep up. i have all the stuff on hand to do 3/4 heater hose. that is what size the flanges are. i allready intstalled a 195* thermotat. I guess i could run it that way and see if it heats up then up to 1" if I have to.
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The actual dynamics of your cooling system will vary significantly with the engine loading and the environmental variables. So you will no doubt find experimentation useful in your own setup.
Lister designed these around tank convection with 1" hose, and fan forced radiator cooling with slightly larger about 1 1/4" hose. We have seen a very wide array of successful cooling arrangements with all sorts of smaller hoses as well. Of course, BTU-input must equal BTU-output to reach and maintain a stable operating temp equilibrium. Sufficient convection circulation of the coolant might be a bit more difficult to achieve if you depart much from the hose sizing as well as tank size and position configured by Lister, but your radiator sounds like it will work fine. The thermostat is another item that Lister did not use on these engines... but many have good results with a 195 F stat - (some with minor weep-hole modifications).
dieselgman
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The vertical is important for themal only driven flow, as well as temperature differential. Is the bottom of your radiator to be 12" above the valve cover? I'm assuming so for this assessment.
I did a convection system for my neighbor's 8/1 propane unit. We had to go to 1" hoses, and raise the triple row "racing" Honda Civic radiator plus raise our 16" hot air stack to 8 feet total with wind turbine. The backup fan now runs only on very long sustained full loads on dead calm summer days. His radiator (bottom) is 24 inches above the valve cover.
We had previously done 3/4" heater hose, and that was just too restrictive for our wimpy thermosiphon flow.
Your backup fan will solve the temperature differential issue, and that MIGHT let you get away with 3/4 hose. We were doing double convection; both for air and water. I hate redos myself so I suggest raising the rad as much as you can and going 1".
Best Wishes,
Bruce
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@Gusbratz
We are using a 10 rib cast iron radiator, no thermostat. 1 inch hose. Seems to work fine for the last 2 years, about 600 hours run time.
I also have a thermosiphon water heater and coil attached to my wood stove to provide winter domestic hot water.
There again, I am using 1 inch diameter (copper pipe rather than the rad hose on the listeroid)
I would also recommend that you go with 1 inch. for a thermosiphon system, a larger diameter pipe provides less internal friction, water circulates more easily. Vertical distance and no downward flow is a must for thermosyphon to work efficiently.
Cheers,
Hugh
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I use 1" hose, upper and lower, a thermostat, and a 30 gallon tank, and passive circulation works OK.
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thanks for all the responses, i will just go straight to 1".
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progress has slowed to a crawl on the engine, been kind of bouncing from fuel to cooling to exhaust while i wait for parts in the mail. I got the exhaust done last night. a 1-1/2 swept elbow to 2" swept elbow going into 3" piece of conduit. all scrounged from work. i did buy a little 1-1/2 flex and weld into the 1-1/2 pipe. where the 2" goes into the 3" i had to slip it in and weld it so i drilled a bunch of holes in the 2" before i slid it up in there. got a neat little chimney cap from the neighbor and put on top of the tail of it all. can't wait to see how it sounds. i sort of worry it's going to be like a big megaphone. that brick floor was the best idea i have had in a long time, lets me just lift up bricks to run stuff under the floor.
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you may need more flex, or maybe the conduit is softer then water pipe and will soak up some.
Love the red cap !
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Looks awesome!! (U might want to put a 45deg deflector in there to direct most of the fumes away from the glazing though!)
Cheers
Ed
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Looks awesome!! (U might want to put a 45deg deflector in there to direct most of the fumes away from the glazing though!)
Cheers Ed
and the soot (inevitable) will darken that nice brick on the wall to the right.
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I used a conduit elbow with the pepper pot muffler pointing up and it broke off at the threads fairly quickly.
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getting excited and wanting to start it. It is so close but junk shit quality gets me again. spill timed it and bled it out only to discover the high pressure line where it goes on the injector split and needs to be replaced. does anybody know what type of fitting that is so i can try to find a new one? the line appears to be 1/4" so any compression or braze on fitting would be fine. then i built it up with braze and thought maybe that would do to get it running. filled the new cooling system only to find the indians covered pin holes in the outside of the block with putty and water was leaking out of it. so the engine has to get torn back down again to try my 3rd cyl and see if it's any better or braze up the leak in this one. feeling frustrated with it today.
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Gus, Just let us know what needs to be replaced and it will be quickly taken care of. No need to repair or patch any defects when replacements are at hand here.
dieselgman
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I was so close to hearing it go putt putt putt. this is partly my own fault for trying to use that first cyl after you sent me a replacement.
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So the problem with the slipped core pinhole on top from an earlier post and the current problem with external pinholes is in the same exact cylinder block? We did send out a carefully inspected replacement cylinder that should have no issues with thin casting or slipped core. Please use the new part and you should be good to go. Sorry for the troubles.
dieselgman
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just to be clear, the leaky cyl is the first one that I had trouble with earlier, I will have to use the replacement you sent now. sorry if I sound bitchy, just frustrated to be so close and now be going backwards. :) plus bleeding the fuel system sure makes a friggin mess and I am not a big fan of diesel all over the place and of course that contributes to my bad mood.
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Gus,
You can have a couple of mins run without cooling, just don't rev the balls off it or put it under load, it'll pick your spirits up and prove the system.
I had problems bleeding both the injector and the pump, they were 'gummed up' with what I can only assume was an anti corrosion protective film that wasn't soluble in diesel. I cleaned everything out with thinners then washed out the solvent with fresh diesel. These were brand new items from India.
That made the injector 'drippy' so I relapped it with jewellers rouge and it now works fine.
Cheers Stef
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so i put the replacement cyl on and now my question is how far off plumb can the bore be? my bump check is .075 on the back and .085 on the front. when i put the cyl on my bridgeport and stroke a dial indicator into the bore I got -.005 on the back +.005 on the front over the 4" stroke of my bridgeport. indicating to me that the bore is a liitle off front to back. will this put stress on my rod and crank, how much is too much. wondering if i should find a machine shop that can trim the cyl. i don't have a mandral big enough to hold the cyl here at the house.
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got it running. ran about an hour last night speed no load, then warmed it up today and put around 3000 watts on it. ran for about 3 hours and my return temp coming out of the rad was 190 so i shut it down. so i guess my rad is not going to work. i will have to try it again with a fan. the engine shakes badly. around 650 rpm it was smooth but when i get up to 850rpm it really shakes bad. i think it is over counter balanced. i guess i will try adding some stick on weights to the flywheel.
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I got a control panel built from an old sump pump breaker that was getting thrown out at work. took the doghouse off and build a pecker head out of a 2" LB with the back cut out. Both are sort of overkill but they are roomy and gave me a breaker to turn it off and on from. wired up the new AVR and the old manual rheostat with a manual/auto switch so i can just switch over from one to the other if it fails. everything on it seems to work except the amp meter? with a 1500w space heater and 3 halogen work lights it says 2 amps. so i went back in and tried wrapping the wire around the amp meter coil and now it reads 5 amps with all that stuff. i estimate the load to be around 20 amps. never wired up an amp meter before not sure what i did wrong. maybe it's too close to the other hot and common and they are canceling it out?
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ran about 3 hours on 3 differnt days with 20 amp load and the rad was not keeping up so i added 5 more sections of cast iron too it. I scrounged the temp meter off a transformer that was geeing scrapped. it is really neat because it has 4 switches on it. wired into my control panel I plan to l hook up a fan next summer in case i need it.
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the exhaust is so so... it blows water out like old faith full when i start the engine. that could be an issue when it gets cold this winter and it turns to a plug of ice. I see myself having to route it abouve ground or put a drain in it or something. i wanted to use all those bricks beside it to build a box around it with baffle walls next summer but not sure if the water will be an issue.
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Looks great !
With that fuel tank you might fill it once a year !
Tell us about the water out of the the exhaust. Why is that ?
Gary
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You might need to check that your CT is the correct ratio for the meter being used. You should not see interference canceling as long as the CT is mounted like you have it with only a single lead passing through its coils.
Looking good!
dieselgman
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because the exhaust is below grade and the heavy clay ground here is like a sponge. i didn't really tighten the exhaust conduit fittings up super tight because i figured gasses would just leak out into the ground. well the ground water is leaking in.... the fuel tank is off my parts bulldozer i think it's a 40 gallon tank. what little i have run the engine i can't believe how little fuel it runs on! very satisfied with that aspect of the project! i think i have about 10 hours on it with most of that loaded with the 3 lights you see and the space heater and i have used about 2.5 gallons.
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I haven't looked at my fuel consumption for years because my roads are just for play
but it seems like I remember burning a little over a pint an hour at about a 2k load.
Somewhere I posted the results.
Looking good !
Gary
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was out getting firewood last night because it has cooled off and the ground is nice and frozen. no more mud! any way I stepped in to check on the listeroid and I see that coolant is weeping out of the head gasket or base gasket (not sure which) and pooling up around the frame. I got done looking at it and thought what the heck lets just see if she will go. 22*F in my little glass power house. cranked it and flipped the lever and away it went. I was pretty surprised that a diesel with no sort of glow plugs or intake heaters would start in that weather. I certainly haven't been around one. so I warmed it up and then ran the house for 1.5 hours and then shut it down. I am hoping that the coolant leaks will seal up.....
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Same thing happens with the 6/1 DES on my buzz saw but I have lacked ambition to take it down and find out why. Mine only leaks when it gets down to zero or so. Couple years ago the thermometer in my storage building read exactly zero. I had a 6/1 D. I. Metro that I had been through sitting there and though Hmmm,,, Took both arms to swing it over with 15W-40 in the crankcase but it started on first compression and ran like 80 degrees out. I was impressed, they will start when everything is up to snuff.
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I thought I would give an update. I just passed over 110 hours on the generator now. it only gets run when the power goes out. the cyl head still weeps coolant even with a new head gasket. It is a small amount and I don't really worry about it. The power went out yesterday and the lister ran the whole house ( all lights tv, computer, coffee pot, well pump, fridge, beer fridge, other beer fridge, freezer, washing machine, wood boiler circ pumps household of 6) for 23.5 hours and used just over 5.5 gallon of diesel. that is a fun statistic for you.
After such a good run I was looking things over and noted that the mice had moved into my spare parts. When I bought this engine from Gary at DES I bought a whole complement of spare parts. Piston, rod, bearings, bushings injector, injection pump ect... ect… the mouse urine is very corrosive and was damaging my spares as they ate the cardboard. So all the spares had to get unboxed cleaned and moved into steel ammo cans. I painted them with fluid film as I put them away. Other that that it has been great.
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"spares kit" is a great idea, yes
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I thought I would give an update. I just passed over 110 hours on the generator now. it only gets run when the power goes out. the cyl head still weeps coolant even with a new head gasket. It is a small amount and I don't really worry about it. The power went out yesterday and the lister ran the whole house ( all lights tv, computer, coffee pot, well pump, fridge, beer fridge, other beer fridge, freezer, washing machine, wood boiler circ pumps household of 6) for 23.5 hours and used just over 5.5 gallon of diesel. that is a fun statistic for you.
After such a good run I was looking things over and noted that the mice had moved into my spare parts. When I bought this engine from Gary at DES I bought a whole complement of spare parts. Piston, rod, bearings, bushings injector, injection pump ect... ect… the mouse urine is very corrosive and was damaging my spares as they ate the cardboard. So all the spares had to get unboxed cleaned and moved into steel ammo cans. I painted them with fluid film as I put them away. Other that that it has been great.
Gus, are you seeing any flicker in the lights?
Which generator head are you using ?
Veggie
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I am using a 10kw ST head. I have converted all my light bulbs to LED and since that change have seen flicker when the well pump kicks on. I wired an AVR into the 10kw head and have a switch so I can flip it back to the harmonic winding and resistor if I want. I seem to get less flicker and voltage drop with the AVR. I also watched the waveform with my oscilloscope and it is a much better wave form with the AVR.