Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: broncodriver99 on February 10, 2016, 12:47:49 AM
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Hello everyone,
I have been lurking here for a few years and wanted to finally introduce myself and say hello. This place is great and a wealth of information. You guys definitely know your Listers.
I live in the US and one day while surfing youtube came across a video of a Lister CS. I was mesmerized, most everything here is a 3600 rpm screamer, and most all of it is gasoline. I must have watched a hundred lister videos after that and my mind was pretty much set that I wanted one. At the time I didn't have the time to take on another project but the thought stayed in the back of my mind. I succumbed to temptation after a couple of years lusting over these big flywheeled beauties and started gathering bits and pieces in the fall of 2014. I had looked into the clones here in North America but the EPA was well on it's way to eliminating their import. Pricing and quality was all over the place and longevity was an unknown factor, so I decided to start looking for an original English made example. I came across a Dursley made 5/1 from an SOM set on Ebay UK and placed a couple of bids on it. I figured there was no way I would end up with it considering what originals were going for, but in the last few minutes of the auction I realized the possibility of victory and mounted my battle plan. I won the auction in the last seconds with one last desperate 10 Pound bid. The seller was none other than the admin, the man behind the curtain, AdeV. I quickly sent him a message here to let him know I had won his auction, was in the US, and was making arrangements for payment and for the lister to be picked up. He was very gracious and happy to help in any way he could.
I had been in contact with millman56 for a week or so before I came across Ade's auction. We were discussing putting together a shipment if I found a lister. He had a couple of CS engines that we were talking about and the possibility of him selling one of them. I can't thank Mark enough for his help and knowledge in navigating a transcontinental shipment which I had no experience with outside of a FedEx package. He did the heavy lifting as far as getting everything mounted to a stillage, helping coordinate shipping, and getting everything dropped off at the proper place. He even drove several hours to pick the engine up from Ade. He was extremely reasonable with his fee for putting it all together for me, got everything done in a timely fashion, and was great with communication along the way. Again, many thanks to Mark. All in all it was a pretty painless experience. Mark had a few pieces and parts that I needed for the engine and also offered up a North American spec generator head that he had at a very agreeable price.
Everything was now on a ship working it's way to the US. It arrived in port and started making it's overland journey down the East Coast to me. I hired a bonding agent on this end of the shipment as customs wants someone registered, bonded, and insured to file the country of origin and BOL documentation. Customs was great to deal with, I had printed and filled out every imaginable document I thought they would even remotely need including for the EPA. The officer working the customs desk at my local port was a cutie and I may or may not have done a little flirting to help the possibility of getting my documentation accepted. She commented that I was one of the most prepared people she had ever dealt with and happily stamped and filed my paperwork also thanking me for making her job so easy. One quick phone call to the the inspection officer and they cleared my shipment for pick up. Funny thing was he specifically asked if it was an original English lister, or an Indian or Chinese one. I guess they were on the lookout for clone engines for some reason. One last thank you to the cute customs lady and I was off to a bonded warehouse to pick up my shipment. Fast forward 18 months and here we are. My lister and generator head have been sitting in the corner of my shop waiting for me to have some time to work on them. Other than walking over and spinning the flywheels while making chugging noises like a 5 year old I haven't done a thing with them.
Here is a little about the engine and generator head. The engine is a 5/1 built in 1954 with a spec plate rating of 6hp@650. It has the heavy SOM flywheels and was missing a few bits and pieces. It has been back to lister at some point and was bored and rebuilt .010" oversize. There is a brass tag denoting the service attached to the cylinder barrel. I located a few of the missing parts surprisingly on ebay here in the US for next to nothing before the engine had even left Ade's garage. They were original English parts that had been left behind in someone's garage at some point. I snatched them up for a few dollars and set about looking for the rest. It is currently not in running condition but I plan to remedy that in short order. The alternator is a Stamford New Age model ES8. It is a 4kw head and has a 24VDC starting and charging winding just like the original SOM heads. It was attached to Mark's 8/1 when I bought it.
Being an SOM engine it is lacking any of the parts necessary for manual starting and the solenoid had been removed. It is also missing a fuel tank. I have picked up originals for as many of the missing parts as I could and will likely get the remainder of items from Gary at DES. My plan is to start this project with building a mounting base. I have a couple of questions and am looking for a little input as far as materials and construction. I have read through a lot of info both here and elsewhere on the web trying to narrow down the best material to build a base out of. For now I am just looking for a skid of sorts with the ability to later anchor it to a concrete pad when I get around to building a generator shed. I am leaning in the direction of a pair of 4"x6" wood runners and fabricating a base out of 3"x3" angle iron to sit between/on top of the runners. I saw a good write-up somewhere where someone had done something similar. I have also seen everything from channel iron to I beam used. I am considering 3"x3"x3/8" angle iron, but have seen everything from 1/2" plate to some thinner metal used. Any advice or examples from you guys that have been in this boat would be much appreciated. I am also looking for dimensions. It seems most of the original lister bases were about 45-48" long and about 24" wide.
Sorry about the book I wrote. Here are a couple of pictures of what I am working with. They are pics of when everything was still in England as I haven't taken any pics of it sitting in the corner of my shop.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_CS.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Stamford_Alternator.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_Pallet.jpg)
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She looks like a great project engine. I'm drooling over those flywheels, and all that original spec Brit iron.
Enjoy!
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So dont be boring us with any more stories eh,,
;D ;D ;D
Looks like an ice engine, please keep us informed as you go on with it.
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Very Nice! Pssst, you shoulda twisted Ade's arm to dig you up a startomatic base since you had to ship it anyway. But don't say I said so. ::)
Ron.
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Thanks fellas.
@BruceM Me too. I can't wait to get it running.
@38ac Will do. Do you have your shop in operation yet? I saw your videos on youtube and figured if this engine needs to be sleeved you would be the man for the job.
@vdubnut62 I wish I had. That is what I would really like to find. The original plan for this engine was an ST head but Mark later offered up the Stamford head which I couldn't refuse.
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This post has some good pics of what I did with my frame. You are welcome to borrow any ideas you think might be useful. http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?163918-My-Listeroid-Generator&highlight=listeroid
Here's a pic of it mounted in it's final destination. The genset now has almost 2400 hours on it.
(http://www.programmertom.com/lister/block.png)
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It will likely be mid summer before the boring mill is back in operation. be glad to do your work if needed and you can wait.
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We have some of the Dursley cast bases and can provide measurements if you like... I also have seen some pretty nice bases fabricated from common steel stocks that were every bit as good as the original iron.
BTW the cylinder sleeves you did for me were excellent Butch! Very good work! Couldn't hardly tell the reworked cylinders from brand new ones (where it really counts at least). Everything went together like a dream!
dieselgman
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Congratulations on acquiring a true Lister SOM.
A rear breed these days.
<wiping the drool off my keyboard> >:(
veggie
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We have some of the Dursley cast bases and can provide measurements if you like...
dieselgman
That would be great. And, if you are tired of tripping over one of them I may be interested. ;D
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This post has some good pics of what I did with my frame. You are welcome to borrow any ideas you think might be useful. http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?163918-My-Listeroid-Generator&highlight=listeroid
timebomb2000 won't show pic's to non-members :(
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Thanks Mike, didn't that.
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Tom, I visited the page but as Mike said membership is required. I will get signed up in the next couple of days to check out your pics. Thanks for the link. Great profile pic by the way. Big Jefferson fan here.
I am now leaning towards a channel iron frame that will eventually get embedded in concrete and filled. I have been taking note of the equipment I work on and noticed that the quietest of the refrigeration plants that I work on have an I beam or channel iron base that is set and then a monolithic concrete curb and infill is poured. These plants are noticeably quieter than where the steel skid is just set and anchored to a concrete slab. Channel iron seems to be the most popular material. I am looking at either a 3" or 4" C channel. What do you guys think would be sufficient dimensionally for the steel? I figure a 3"H (maybe 4")x2"W channel iron with some cross bracing would be pretty sturdy. It would be on a wood skid for now but eventually end up in a concrete slab.
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...Double post
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Finally a little update. I have been working on the base as time permits and it is almost done. I just realized it has been two months since I started on this project and finally some progress. I studied pictures of both the original Lister cast iron and fabricated steel bases and came up with what I thought would work well that I could build with available materials and my skill set.
My material list consists of a 20' stick of 5" x 9 lbs. channel iron, 2' of 4" wide X 5/16" thick steel plate, and 2' of 8" wide X 3/8" thick steel plate as well as a few small misc. pieces I had laying around.
I had the pleasure of fabricating the rectangular outer section of the base twice. >:( I started out by tacking everything together on a set of sawhorses. Everything measured square and plumb so I went to town burning everything in. Well, I guess I didn't realize how much heavy steel pulls when laying hot welds and I ended up with a parallelogram. It pulled about 3/8" out of square and there was no way to straighten it out. I probably could have worked around it and made it usable but it would have bugged the heck out of me, so I decided to salvage what I could of the steel and start over. I realized that I needed a better work space and since my main workbench is covered in tools and mechanical parts that I don't want weld spatter and slag all over I decided to build myself a 4'x4' work table. There went another weekend.
With my new work table, some new heavy C clamps, and plenty of bracing I set about starting round two. I was able to salvage most of the steel and had enough left over that I hadn't used the first go round to make it a second time. I made sure to clamp everything down well this time. It was a lot of cutting, fitting , and welding some of which I had to do twice. ::) I made my own adjustment/slide system for the generator head. There is an adjustment bolt on the end of the base that drives a screw which pushes or pulls the mounting studs for the generator head. I didn't get any pictures of the underside of the mechanism but will next time. Cutting the slots was a real pain. I started out with a Dremel as they are easy to control and cut straight with. About 10 minutes in and one half of a slot and it let out the magic smoke and no more worky. I then switched over to an angle grinder and cut off wheel which was much faster but a little harder to control. Once the slots were done I squared them with the bolt pattern for the Lister and burned everything in. I finished up the last of the welding today and after a twice over with a wire wheel started priming and painting. I used Rustoleum Industrial enamel in Hunter Green which is pretty close to the original green. I ran out of paint with only a little left to go and now have to wait a couple of days for it to cure before I can finish. Grrr....
I had some reclaimed 4"x6" heart pine laying around that I cut into 3 sections that will be lagged to the bottom of the base until I find a more permanent home for it. Anyway, here are a few pictures of what I came up with. Hopefully I can get the paint finished up in a couple of days and start mounting the generator head and Lister shortly after.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_Base.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_Base_3.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_Base_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Lister_Base_5.jpg)
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Looks good.
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Gorgeous base, Bronco, very nice welding!
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Looks really good!
I am now busy figuring out the position of the alternator and cooling tank. I decided to approach the belt tensioning a bit differently:
I will make a swivel base for the alternator - It's a bit more work to make the parts, but at least I won't need to battle with those slots... ;)
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I have a small update. There hasn't been much progress on the CS project due to a busy summer at work, but I did manage to change the oil last weekend. I have no idea how long the old oil had been in there. The top half of the sump was still liquid but extremely dirty. What came out of the lower part of the sump was closer to liquid asphalt. It was quite a challenge to get in there and scrub out all of the debris. Lets just say it took a good 20 mins of scrubbing with pumice cleaner and a long shower to get all of the carbon laden oil off of my arms. She is full of fresh 30wt now although it started turning dark as I ran the manual priming handle to circulate though the crank bearings and manually turned the engine over. I hope to set up a temporary fuel supply and try to get her to burp soon.
What do you guys recommend for an oil weight? I did a little reading and came up with recommendations for 20wt and 30 wt. I am just running standard 30 wt right now as I figure the oil will get dirty pretty quickly once i get it running and will need another change. Should I be running a diesel specific oil like Rotella or is the straight 30wt ok?
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There are mixed opinions about oil technology, old and new. The Lister CS oiling system was designed without much filtration and used a non-detergent oil that would allow contaminants to settle to the bottom of the sump between oil changes and clean-out maintenance. Modern oils are designed to keep everything in suspension and rely of good filtration to keep harmful particles out of your bearings and other wear surfaces. As a practical matter, modern diesel oils are pretty good at what they do. 15-40 is typical for diesel engine service and readily available. Just change your oil frequently and definitely well before you can discern any sludge forming in the engine. 250 hours would be a typical recommendation.
dieselgman
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Along with what Gary said realize that ANY oil you purchase today is superior in every respect to the best oil available when the CS engine was designed. Old engines that are newly rebuild or cleaned of gunk will run fine with detergent oils however dirty engines can be ruined by changing them over to detergent oils without first cleaning them. Either flush and clean the sump or run non-detergent oil, that's my recommendation. By the way you won find diesel rated non-detergent motor oil?? what to do?? back to my point A.
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Another little update.
Now that work has slacked off and it has gotten cold I have had time to start working on the Lister again. I had been tinkering as time allowed and noticed an issue with the cam, governor, and fuel pump lifter. The governor linkage wouldn't move and when I pulled the fuel pump lifter I found some issues. I pulled the cam side flywheel in order to inspect the cam and check things out as well as add the fuel shut off eccentric. Here are a couple of pictures of what I found. At some point the roller on the fuel pump lifter seized causing it to wear a flat spot. I have since gotten the roller freed up but it is junk anyway. You can see where something wore into the body of the lifter as well.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_FP_Lifter_2.jpg) (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_FP_Lifter.jpg)
Here are a couple of pictures of the cam eccentric and the governor weight follower/actuator. The follower was stuck in the middle of its range and it took some penetrating lube and working it up and down with a hammer to get it freed up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Cam_Governor_Sleeve.jpg) (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Cam_Governor_Sleeve_2.jpg)
Here is a picture of the asphalt that has coated everything inside the cam housing.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Cam_Cover_Housing.jpg)
So, here are my questions for the guys who know these Listers better that I do.
1) Does the fuel pump eccentric on the cam look like it needs to be replaced? It definitely has a shallower profile than the eccentrics for the valve lifters and has somewhat of a flat spot at the top of it's profile. Are all three eccentrics the same or is the fuel pump eccentric different and I am just seeing some superficial wear?
2) How much play should there be between the fingers on the governor weights and the follower? I can't tell if the weights or follower are worn from it being stuck. Does the gap pictured look typical?
3) Is the ball on the end of the governor linkage that rides in the governor weight follower supposed to be a roller? The factory one does not turn(seized?) But the Indian replacement part I have does roll. Which is correct?
Lastly I picked up a couple of free radiators from a buddy of mine that was doing some remodel work on a house. These were the smallest ones in the house. They had some much larger but at 3-400 lbs each I wasn't interested in those. These two together should be capable of dissipating 12-15,000 BTU's according to the numbers I ran.
As always, thanks for any help and guidance.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Radiators.jpg)
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@ Bronco
Nice score with the radiators. I am using one of about 2/3 the number of fins (10) to cool my daily driver listeroid with a 1.5 gallon expansion tank. My runs are usually limited to 2 hours for battery charging. At times the run time is longer, but with a lighter load as I am using it to power tools being used for construction of a new shop. In that case, I apply a constant base load of about 1200W (electric heaters) to keep the engine warm. In either case, the 10 fin radiator seems adequate.
BTW, My sympathies.......... I had to deal with gummy internals like yours when refurbishing a startomatic 6/1......messy in the extreme, but it all turned out well and will be powering my new shop in a few months.
Cheers,
Hugh
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What's a good/safe for parts solvent for the internal "tar"
ATF
Acetone
diesel/kerosene
gasoline
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Hi Bronco,
1) Does the fuel pump eccentric on the cam look like it needs to be replaced? It definitely has a shallower profile than the eccentrics for the valve lifters and has somewhat of a flat spot at the top of it's profile. Are all three eccentrics the same or is the fuel pump eccentric different and I am just seeing some superficial wear?
Carve down the high ridge carefully till it is level with the worn area - looking at the ridge on the cam, difficult to tell from the pictures, but it looks about 20 to 30 thou or so, polish the running area for the roller, not too much, we are not looking for a mirror, just the roughness out, and the cam should be good for a good few more hours - remember to set your timing!! (Make sure, too, that the roller is fully on the cam surface, not necessarily center, but not overhanging a side - you can adjust this to a small degree with adding or removing gaskets). Also while you are at it - check the oil pump cam follower for damage and smooth it out if required...
2) How much play should there be between the fingers on the governor weights and the follower? I can't tell if the weights or follower are worn from it being stuck. Does the gap pictured look typical?
Its not too bad - make sure that the weights cant jump their slot at fully open or closed, or bind as well, ant you should be good to go.
3) Is the ball on the end of the governor linkage that rides in the governor weight follower supposed to be a roller? The factory one does not turn(seized?) But the Indian replacement part I have does roll. Which is correct?
It should be a ball shaped roller - make sure that the engine stop lever doesn't close to the extent that it limits with high force on the linkages or on the fuel rack - there is an immense amount of leverage and resultant force that can be put on that little roller if the engine stop lever is lifter with force - This could cause the little ball roller to seize, particularly if the engine is cranked over after standing a few days with the lever "forcefully closed"
Hope this helps...
Regds
Ed
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Very messy interior there... we have seen a few extreme cases where the lube oil was gelled and impervious to most common solvents. I know that gasoline will do a good flush job for the worst of it unless it is gelled. Then we found that xylene was required to dissolve and remove the crud. There are plenty of issues - health and safety - related to use of any of these solvents. You don't want to ingest them either through the skin or through the air/lungs, and you don't want to have a fire or explosion hazard in your workshop. We have generally taken the worst of the cleanup projects of this sort outside the shop during the dangerous phases of getting them cleared out of the goop.
dieselgman
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Hi All
I went down the 38ac route and boiled the bloody lot, crankcase and all, for 2 hours in a 40 gallon barrel, with 5 kilo's of caustic soda, over an open fire. The paint, crud, grit and everything else pressure washes off a treat.
Do it on a bit of waste ground 'cos it takes 9 months for the weeds to grow back and the other half to forget about it all when you kick it over to drag the crankcase out - obviously I learned the other way!
Cheers Stef
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Thanks for the responses guys. I have a lye solution I can use for the smaller stuff and I have found that kerosene does a good job at cutting most oil based crud so will have that as well.
So, from the responses so far it seems the only real casualty is the fuel pump lifter. I have an Indian replacement already, just needed to check some measurements. The body of the Indian replacement is a little shorter but I guess the difference can be taken up with the adjustment bolt. I will probably just file down the eccentric on the cam as suggested. Anyone know where I can get just the eccentric without having to buy the whole cam? I would like to at least make a comparison.
Thanks Again.
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We should have all of the small parts for your camshaft including the i.p. lobes. gary@dieselgen.com
dieselgman
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Uh Oh...
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Big_End_Bearing.jpg)
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What happened? More to come........
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Disassembled.jpg)
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Well...She is all torn down now.
So, to bring this thread up to speed somewhat. It started when I pulled the cam cover to check the tappet problem. Once I cleaned the cam up I found the cam gear loose on the shaft. Someone had done a poor job of fitting the tapered pin. The pin was too short and had been peened over very poorly with a center punch. The gear is still in good shape but the shaft has some wear to the tapered hole. My plan is to step up to a #7 taper pin and ream the gear and shaft to fit. I found some minor pitting on various parts and decided it best to go ahead and pull the whole thing down. That's when I found the con rod bearing. Every hole for splash oil lubrication was stopped up with some sore of fine dust, moisture, and carbonized oil. It is apparent that the engine had quite a bit of moisture in it over the years. There is some very fine pitting on various surfaces but only a couple of parts look un-usable, though they probably are usable and I am just being picky. I also found a broken oil scraper ring, not sure if it was already broken or weather I broke it during disassembly.
Here is a picture of the piston. Other than the broken oil ring and some scuffing it appears to be in decent shape. The rings move freely although it is covered in carbonized oil and gunk.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Piston_2.jpg)
Here are a couple of pics of the cylinder bore. There is a little scuffing but I can still vaguely see some cross hatching so hopefully I won't have to do anything but de-glaze it.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Cylinder_Bore.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Cylinder_Bore_2.jpg)
Next, is the crankshaft. The cam end has some wear and some scoring. The scoring isn't very deep as I can just barely catch a nail on it but it covers the entire bearing surface. Whatever this engine was driving was being driven from this end. There was a large pulley mounted as far out on the crank as it could get. The other end is in much better shape with minimal signs of abuse. The crank pin is discolored with slight signs of pitting from sitting with moisture in it. It needs a good polish but will hopefully come out useable. I mic'd all of the bearing areas and come up with 1.9970" on the cam end journal, 1.9975" on the drive end journal, and 2.4975" on the crank pin. So, it looks like the babbit material did it's job and took the abuse leaving the crank in decent shape and within usable limits.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Cam_Side_Journal_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Drive_Side_Journal_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Crankpin_2.jpg)
Finally, here is the stripped down crankcase. It needs a good soak.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Crankcase.jpg)
I have had all of the smaller parts soaking in kerosene for a couple of days now. I plan on spending today cleaning them up and mic'ing the cylinder bore and piston to see where things sit for wear and taper. Hopefully a new set of rings is all that will be needed. The water jacket in the cylinder and head has a considerable amount of rust and mineral buildup that needs to be cleaned out. That should be a fun job. Update to come.
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Looks very promising indeed!
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I made a little progress today and answered some questions that I had. I ended up only being able to spend part of the afternoon in a kerosene soaked mess though. ;D
I wiped down the cylinder and took some measurements front to back and side to side throughout the bore.
Here is what I measured:
The uppermost and bottom most parts of the cylinder where the chrome is untouched by rings read dead on 4.510". Whoever bored and re-chromed this cylinder, I assume Lister judging by the brass tag, did an excellent job.
The upper part of the cylinder, about 2" down, reads 4.512" both front to back and side to side.
The center part of the cylinder reads 4.511" front to back and 4.512" side to side.
The bottom of the cylinder, about 2" up, reads 4.5115 front to back and 4.5125 side to side.
All in all it is worn really even with almost no taper and still close enough to spec that a new set of .010 rings should work just fine. This was a really happy surprise as I was not expecting measurements this good judging by what the rest of it looks like.
I next scrubbed the piston and inspected it and the rings. There appears to be little to no wear on it either but I didn't have a chance to put a mic on it. It is back in the kerosene soak as it was still really gummed up on the inside. I also started polishing the crankshaft journals. I started with 320 grit and moved to 500 grit. There are still a few areas where pitting is evident but thankfully the majority of the scoring polished out. I will work through 1000 and 1200 grits and finish with some crocus cloth if I can find some. I am hoping that will be enough to make sure the edges of any remaining pitting are smooth enough to minimize any bearing damage.
While I didn't get as much accomplished as I had hoped to, what I did get done looks to be promising.
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Ahhh! Finally, a good pic of a crank pin on a real Lister. Over the years, a few cranks on Inj'n Listeroids have failed, each one at the pin. Pics appeared to show that there was no fillet on each side of the pin, leading to concentration of stress. That one is as it should be.
Quinn
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The rod end looks kinda rough to me. I'll be interested to see how the first hours go with this engine.
Casey
PS. I totally admire your focus and ability to bring this engine back to life.
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Wear down in in the cylinder is seldom seen, especially on chromed bores. Wear occurs most at the very top. I have seen many bores that still showed honing crosshatch at the middle an bottom but they would not clean up with a .010 overbore due to wear right at the top of ring travel and a few that wouldn't clean up at 020. You need to measure things right at the top of ring travel just under the ridge. That's what will tell if the bore is usable. Another mistake is to assume the piston is good because it meets spec on diameter. The high wear area is not the skirt but the top ring land. Lots of engines have been"rebuilt" without paying much attention to the wear limits but if you want it to last as long as it did originally they need to be adhered to.
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The rod end looks kinda rough to me. I'll be interested to see how the first hours go with this engine.
Casey
PS. I totally admire your focus and ability to bring this engine back to life.
Yes, it's not going to win any beauty contests. Some of that is discoloration and oil staining. I am guessing she got really toasty at some point. While not perfect it looks much better after some polishing yesterday. I hope to get back at it today.
I did find some areas where galvanic corrosion had set in. Today will tell the tale though, if it won't polish out off to the machine shop it goes.
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Wear down in in the cylinder is seldom seen, especially on chromed bores. Wear occurs most at the very top. I have seen many bores that still showed honing crosshatch at the middle an bottom but they would not clean up with a .010 overbore due to wear right at the top of ring travel and a few that wouldn't clean up at 020. You need to measure things right at the top of ring travel just under the ridge. That's what will tell if the bore is usable. Another mistake is to assume the piston is good because it meets spec on diameter. The high wear area is not the skirt but the top ring land. Lots of engines have been"rebuilt" without paying much attention to the wear limits but if you want it to last as long as it did originally they need to be adhered to.
Thanks Butch. I checked that area yesterday and didn't see any variance from the rest of the cylinder. I will recheck it today and hopefully get a mic on the piston.
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Anyone looking for a Lister project?
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Oh yeah, people are interested. Surely you're not about to give up, are you?
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Oh yeah, people are interested. Surely you're not about to give up, are you?
Nah, that was just my sore arms talking.
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So yesterday was a long day. I spent the whole afternoon polishing the crank. My arms and shoulders are still sore. All of the scoring and almost all of the pitting polished out but the areas where galvanic corrosion had set in are just too deep for me to polish out by hand. I mic'd everything when I was done and I had taken .00075" of material off. The corrosion looks to be about another .001" deep. That is good and bad. It looks like it can be polished out and still be within the wear limits but I was hoping not to have to take that much material off.
I had a chance to finish cleaning up the piston and get a mic on it. I found all of the wear I had been expecting when I tore it apart. It was all in the piston. This is a .010" oversize piston and I measured 4.504"/4.503" on the skirt and 4.494"/4.4935" above the top ring. So, that's .006" wear at the bottom and .0165 wear at the top. :o The wear limit is .005" so it is well out of spec. Between the wiped out rod bearing and the loose piston I bet this engine was making some serious noise when it was shut down for the last time. I went through a few of the other parts and found a few more pieces that have enough wear in them to be of concern. The cam being the worst. It is pretty loose in the bushings and is worn enough that it may be time to replace the shaft.
I also rechecked the cylinder at 38ac's suggestion. That is where I did find some good news. I can still see crosshatch all the way up to the ridge. I checked about 20 different places and concentrated on the first inch directly below the ridge and I couldn't find anywhere that varied outside of 4.512".
I have been contemplating my options and these are what I have come up with:
Option #1:
- Have the crank polished until the corrosion is gone and run it if it is still within the wear limits.
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one) and deglaze the cylinder.
Option #2:
- Have mains polished and run them if they are within wear limits.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder honed to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)
Option #3:
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Hone cylinder to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)
Option #4
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder sleeved back to std.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.
Option #5
- Replace crankshaft with an aftermarket one.
- Replace cylinder with and aftermarket one.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.
I am thinking somewhere between option #1 and #3. I aim to do this right but it is a question of how far do I need to go for it to be "right". I plan for this engine to be a power source while I build my next place and then serve as a back-up generator. I figure option #1 would buy this engine several thousand hours of service which is likely more hours than I would ever put on it. But, option #2 seems like it is probably the minimum to do it "right". Ultimately option #3 would get this engine as close to "as new" spec as possible while saving the chrome bore and the original English parts which I would prefer.
I won't have any time to work on it for a few days and need to see about tracking down some parts.
So, what do you guys think? Opinions would be appreciated. Which direction would you go?
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Do your polishing and honing to bring surface finishes back to tolerance... if finished dimensions are still within spec, replace the wear parts and go.
The Indians have a pretty good handle on the bearings, pistons, rings - for quality and consistency... all the parts are available in the USA including the oversizes. We keep good stocks matching the OEM designs - as closely as is currently available anyway. gary@dieselgen.com
dieselgman
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Thank you dieselgman. Just sent you an email about some parts.
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Hi '99
For what my 6 eggs are worth........
I'd hone the bore as least as possible, and go with an aluminium piston, sure you'h have to re balance the fly wheels but it would leave you the option to run up to 8/1 spec if you wanted a few more HP later.
Grind the crankpin and fit oversized big end shells.
Leave the mains and fit taper roller bearings. This also give you the modern 'lip' oil seals.
I fitted TRB's as the mains were shocking, even with new bushes, however they were made for the aforementioned In'jun crans with no filet / radius on the mains and I ended up modd'ing them with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. honest! Plenty of Loctite 610 on the final fit and they sound great. However I've yet to do any long term work with the motor.
Whilst you've the motor in bits don't for get to check the cam shaft 'lash', I did and It'll mean another tear down later......
I guess mostly it depends on the depth of your pockets, available facilities and desire for perfection!
Cheers Stef
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.00075" is some mighty fine measur'en ;)
Two routes for you to take, worry less about hand sanding out every imperfection or have the crank ground. Remember that you are not transferring 200 HP through a .750" wide bearing surface such as in a hi performance V-8. Do not think that I advocate sloppy build practice as I do not but there are things that are import and need to be so-so and things that do not need to be so-so. The crankshaft journals MUST be round in cross section and flat in profile and that takes precedence over a nice and shiny surface in a slow speed, low pressure application if your not going to grind the crank in a machine.
Bottom line is if the pitting is less than 25% of the surface area it doesn't need to be fretted and you will likely do more damage to the important things than good in trying to hand sand them all out. Think of the pits as nice little oil holding pockets ;)
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Hi '99
For what my 6 eggs are worth........
I'd hone the bore as least as possible, and go with an aluminium piston, sure you'h have to re balance the fly wheels but it would leave you the option to run up to 8/1 spec if you wanted a few more HP later.
Grind the crankpin and fit oversized big end shells.
Leave the mains and fit taper roller bearings. This also give you the modern 'lip' oil seals.
I fitted TRB's as the mains were shocking, even with new bushes, however they were made for the aforementioned In'jun crans with no filet / radius on the mains and I ended up modd'ing them with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. honest! Plenty of Loctite 610 on the final fit and they sound great. However I've yet to do any long term work with the motor.
Whilst you've the motor in bits don't for get to check the cam shaft 'lash', I did and It'll mean another tear down later......
I guess mostly it depends on the depth of your pockets, available facilities and desire for perfection!
Cheers Stef
Hi Stef,
I was reading your thread and the TRB's are an option I have contemplated. I hadn't considered the aluminum piston but will give it some thought. I would really like to keep this as original as possible but it is good to know there are other options if that isn't possible. I do have some lash in the cam and intend to replace the collar and bushing to correct it. I think that was the source of the issues that caused the fuel tappet wear. The more I dig into this Lister the more I think someone ran it until it was slam worn out, had the cylinder bored and replaced the piston, then ran it until it was slam worn out again. All of the bearing part numbers are of the original 5-1/ designation which was two L/P numbering systems ago. I am thinking these may all be the original bearings and all that was rebuilt was the cylinder.
As far as my desire for perfection, well, I tend to be a perfectionist. It was drilled into my head at a young age to do things once and get them right the first time. I strive for "as good as I can make it" and sometimes go overboard but I try not to spend silly money on something for the sake of perfection.
Thank you for the input.
BD99
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.00075" is some mighty fine measur'en ;)
Two routes for you to take, worry less about hand sanding out every imperfection or have the crank ground. Remember that you are not transferring 200 HP through a .750" wide bearing surface such as in a hi performance V-8. Do not think that I advocate sloppy build practice as I do not but there are things that are import and need to be so-so and things that do not need to be so-so. The crankshaft journals MUST be round in cross section and flat in profile and that takes precedence over a nice and shiny surface in a slow speed, low pressure application if your not going to grind the crank in a machine.
Bottom line is if the pitting is less than 25% of the surface area it doesn't need to be fretted and you will likely do more damage to the important things than good in trying to hand sand them all out. Think of the pits as nice little oil holding pockets ;)
Thank You 38ac,
I am guessing at the .00075. ;D I measure between .0007" and .0008". It could be .00074. :D
That answers a lot of my question. I am used to working with highly loaded bearings where surface imperfection must be nil to none. I figured there is some leeway in the bushings but don't want to risk galling. I plan to find a shop capable of putting this on a machine for the rod journal at a minimum. Because of the oiling arrangement I am definitely more concerned about the crank pin than the mains.
Thanks Again.
BD99
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I am guessing at the .00075. ;D I measure between .0007" and .0008". It could be .00074. :D
BD99
You got that chit right, ;D
I have a 0-1" Starrett electronic micrometer that direct reads in 1/100,000" I wont even use it as it drives a person nuts. A person's hands warming the part changes the measurement as many times as you care to take them and did I mention what touching the frame of the micrometer does?,,, LOL. I used to post on some machinist forums and there was always some clown saying he was making parts to .000000000000000000000000000000000003" or some ridiculous tolorance on his 10EE Monarch or his Decker Mill and I'd call em all out. I made no friends but I've turned the handles on too many machine tools and measured too many parts to be fooled by such
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You got that chit right, ;D
I have a 0-1" Starrett electronic micrometer that direct reads in 1/100,000" I wont even use it as it drives a person nuts.
That would drive me crazy. I tend to fret over 10ths of a thou. I tend to be the guy who always has a standard handy, just because the weather changed. I can't imagine a digital readout that changed every time i looked at it. It does boggle the mind the accuracy that modern tools can offer. NASA would be proud.
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I did a little more work on the Lister. I decided to let the crank and cylinder be for now while I am waiting on some info and parts availability. I moved on to the cylinder head. I pulled the valves and springs and gave it all a once over. The valves have the slightest amount of play in the guides. I measure about a thou of wear from the non contact areas of the valves to the areas that are in the guides. The seats look good but may be slightly recessed. I will measure that tomorrow. The exhaust valve has some pitting so I will be adding a set of valves to my parts list. I pulled the COV and then realized I should have done that before I pulled the whole thing down as the inner chamber is stuck in the head. I left it soaking in some penetrating oil.
I also cleaned up the cam. I polished the journals and the eccentrics with some 1200 grit and mic'd everything. The shaft is .875" nominal with what seems to be a theme of .002" clearance. The non contact areas measure .873". Both bushing journals measure .8715". It looks like there is 1-2 thousands wear which seems reasonable to me. I am not sure there is much to be gained by replacing the cam shaft. I plan on replacing both cam bushings which should snug things up a bit. I hope to be back at it tomorrow.
BTW, are there a lot of snails in England? I pulled about a half dozen snail shells out of the water passages of the head. Curious.
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There are loads of snails in the UK, not only that, the Romans brought their favourite edible breeds as well as dormice, from the States, we got Kentucky Fried and Micky D's, more my type of snack, and the wrappers don't foul the fuel filters,
I had hazel nut shells under the rocker cover of mine, doubtless some one from Oz will be keen to let us know about the Red Backs cin their alternator..........
Cheers
Stef
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There are loads of snails in the UK, not only that, the Romans brought their favourite edible breeds as well as dormice, from the States, we got Kentucky Fried and Micky D's, more my type of snack, and the wrappers don't foul the fuel filters,
I had hazel nut shells under the rocker cover of mine, doubtless some one from Oz will be keen to let us know about the Red Backs cin their alternator..........
Cheers
Stef
I will definitely take KFC and McD over snails and mice any day.
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I spent a couple of hours cleaning up today.
I scraped a bunch of mineral out of the water passages in the head. There is still a lot in there but it is going to need a soak to get to the rest of it. I also pulled the water jacket doors on the cylinder and scraped a ton of sediment/rust/mineral out. It will need a good soak as well.
The valves and seats have right much pitting and will need replaced. The seats have been replaced at some time. I measured the valve recess and it is .095-.097 which is pretty much the max spec, no matter though as they will be new when I am done.
I measure about .010" play in the valve guides. Does anyone have a spec for this? I probably need to replace those as well. This parts list is getting pretty long. :'(
Here are a couple of pics. There appears to be a crack between the valve seats. It is hard to tell of it is a crack or a gouge, I can catch a nail on it in both directions. I inspected the areas in the valve chambers to see if there was evidence that it carried through the casting but couldn't see any evidence of it. It will be easier to tell when the seats are removed. There is a water passage directly above that area that I may try to get some water down in to see if it is a crack and will weep. I also put a straight edge on the head and there is a small crown right in the middle, the area between the valve seats and the pre chamber. Everything else is good and flat. . The valve seats look to be a little bigger than necessary. I am not crazy about how close the edge of the intake seat is to the head gasket. It appears to intrude into the fire ring area a little.
That's about it for today.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Head_Crack_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Lister_Head_Crack.jpg)
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I am not crazy about the choice of inserts there either but since they are there,,, here is how I would progress with that head were it in my shop because I think it is cracked as that location is typical and is from overheating. Sometimes the crack ends just above the deck, sometimes it extends up into the swirl chamber opposite the injector. Sometimes they leak compression when cracked there, sometimes not. Two ways to find out, make a plate and pressure check it or bolt it on, put a clear upper hose on the engine and run it.
So :-\ Instead of putting a bunch of time and effort into a head that may be not usable I would make the head "serviceable" by first taking a light cut with the mill to true up the deck, this also raises the valve heads a bit. Then install new guides and valves. You should shoot for .002-.003 clearance stem to guide. Then I would touch up those seats removing as little material as possible. If the recession is a bit deep then make sure your bump clearance is at the minimum spec. If not shoot for the middle of the spec. Install the head run the engine and check for leaks. If it does leak from that crack I have had zero luck with repairing them (lots of $$ TWICE) and replace them usually with a new 7 stud head from Gary. Good OEM spare heads on this side of the pond are very hard to find.
Cross your fingers, good luck with it!
Butch
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Thank you Butch. The more I think about it the more I think it is beyond primary service. I may do exactly as you suggest and toss it on the shelf as a backup if it is salvageable. I am really concerned with the crack and the likelihood that if it hasn't already traveled into the water jacket, at some point down the road it will. I would be more comfortable starting with a head that doesn't have any issues. Those valve seats are really bugging me anyway. Thank you for the valve stem spec. Decisions. Decisions. :-\
Russell
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If you want to keep the engine all Lister there are several places to check, Gary would be my first check, then Hoover in Pa. I have had the need twice and not found a head in the US for sale. They are everywhere in England but of course plus shipping. The 7 stud clone heads from DES are good basics to build a working head from. I have several out working with no issues. I would still give that one a shot before giving up on it myself.
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Hi Bronco,
Myself, being one of those idiots who would rather spend a week fixing a clothespeg rather than tossing and replacing, I would drill/tap/insert/peen some soft iron screws into the crack - That is after I had installed the head and checked it for a leak into the water jacket. If there is no leak, all is well and keep going - if it does leak, nothing ventured, nothing gained, give it a go!
Here is a link to the basic process of lock and stitch from a co in the UK... I have done similar, many times before, with an awesome success rate!!
https://www.metalock.co.uk/typical-on-site-repairs/metal-stitching.aspx (https://www.metalock.co.uk/typical-on-site-repairs/metal-stitching.aspx)
The crack is so short, if it is a crack rather than a gouge, i think you wouldn't need the stitch sections, only the overlapping locks to secure and seal it by the looks of it. If it were my head - I would reseat it with seats that are way shallower in angle cut with what is in there, so the fire ring isn't compromised, then cut the seats to spec, then lock/stitch and peen the crack, possibly into the edge of the replaced seat, then a VERY light skim to ensure seats et al are perfectly level with the head (because of the fire ring) and away you go.... But that's just me!
I have done a similar crack repair out in the field (Riverbank actually), with only the most basic of hand tools before, in fact, even draw filed the head instead of skimming it.... Amazing what can be done when you are young, dumb and full of..... But it in my defence, it was a engine stuck out in the back of beyond, with no easy access to it except by foot... Took about 3hrs to get to it once we got to the farm, the roads had all washed away... Incidentally, I ordered a new head for it and the farmer kept it in his shed for many years, last I heard, the temp repair was still going strong!!
For no other reason, if not just for personal satisfaction and learning, give it a go rather than write it off!! (If its already stuffed, at best you can unstuff it for a few pennies!!)
Lol
Ed
PS: Found a nice youtube vid of an actual repair.... You might find it interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk)
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Hi EdDee,
I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.
Thanks for the info.
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Hi EdDee,
I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.
Thanks for the info.
Hi - been reading this thread with interest - especially the stitch repairs
And I have been reading what various folks have been saying about the search for a new head?
FWIW I have a 5-stud Indian head running on my CS - it came from this guy:
http://www.oldtimerengines.com.au/
His name's Rob and he has lots of spares not listed on the website.
I just bought a head off him with the credit card and he shipped it - the freight wasn't THAT bad, $$-wise
And, because he's in $AUS, you might find it works out OK
Just a comment - no harm in an email . . .
I have found Rob to be unfailingly knowledgeable and helpful
Cheers, Mike
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People were commenting on not finding Original Equipment cylinder heads... there has never been any problem finding the Indian production.
There are at least two stocking dealers I know of in the USA with a full line of Indian parts for the antique CS series - everything you could need.
For general information as well, there are plenty of Original Equipment cores in Kansas USA for those purists wanting only the best British iron.
dieselgman
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I got a little more done today.
I have come to the conclusion that it is definitely a crack in the head, not a gouge.
There does appear to be enough material left in the valve seats to re-cut them(lightly). They are cut pretty low though, either from the first go round or after multiple valve jobs. I measured the seats in case I have to track down replacements and they are two different sizes!!!! Not just that but one appears to be standard and one metric!!!! I had a flashback to working on an old AMC/Jeep, thankfully no Torx bolts on a Lister though. :laugh:
So, the exhaust seat is 1.875" OD 1.23" ID. The exhaust seat is a little rough on the ID so I am guessing it was originally 1-7/32". The intake seat is 1.791" (45.5mm) OD 1.259" (32mm) ID. I guess they just used what they had? ???
After that I stripped the crankcase for the most part, drained the oil, and unbolted it from the frame. It needs a good pressure washing. I then decided to clean up and inspect the oil pump. I am happy to say I found a part that isn't completely worn out and in need of replacement. ;D I pulled it apart and cleaned everything up. There is no scoring in the bore or on the plunger and only about .001" wear on the plunger. The area of the plunger that contacts the seal has about .005" wear. The original felt seal is intact and appears to be in good shape. Once all back together it pumps air and will not compress when I block the outlet port. Good enough for me. One part down, only the rest of it to go.
Till next time.
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Someone once posted an equivalent set of valve guides that are interchangeable with the Lister guides. Listeroid also have modern counterparts.
Can't remember where I saw it, but there is a readily available set of guides off a more modern engine that will fit.
A cylinder head shop would be able to march them for you (probably with better materials) if they had the dimensions.
Veggie
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It's been a couple of weeks since my last update. Between work, weather, and a cold workshop I have only had a few afternoons here and there to get some time in on the Lister. Yesterday and today were both 72 degrees in February in Virginia. :o Normally its in the 30's overcast and a chance of snow. Spent both afternoons enjoying the weather and working on the Lister. ;D
Been spending a lot of time cleaning up parts and measuring everything for wear. Let's just say EVERYTHING has wear. I have a lot of small parts that need replacement or repair.
I have been calling around looking for answers and options on what to do, if anything, with the cylinder. It seems that most of the guys still in the business of chroming cylinders do small motorsports type cylinders and most have or are shifting to Nikasil/NiCom coatings. I spoke to USChrome at length. Very knowledgeable guy and nice enough to spend a few minutes explaining the difference between the old hard chrome and the newer products. He explained what would need to be done with the cylinder and their process of removing the old chrome and re-coating with Nikasil. He gave me a price and asked for some pictures and dimensions to better get an idea of what they could do with it. They have a limitation with the length of the bore as their diamond hones don't have a very long stroke. After getting a couple of questions answered by 38ac and a better understanding of the wear specs I think that the cylinder is good as it is. I may look into options for de-glazing it but I have read mixed opinions on doing anything to the chrome. It is good to know that there is another option out there similar to the original coating if the cylinder is damaged or worn beyond limits at some point.
I ordered a few parts from Gary over at DES to get me started and to take some measurements with. I Emailed him Friday afternoon and the parts showed up Monday. Now that is quick!
Other than that I spent most of my time cleaning up, degreasing, and stripping the crankcase. It was a job. The entire inside was coated in the same muck that is seen in the tear down pictures at the beginning of the thread. Kerosene cut most of the heavy stuff off and thinned the rest of it enough that a heavy duty degreaser or brake clean handled it with multiple scrub brushes and scrapers of course. After the last rinse down there was little or no green paint left and the primer was pretty thin so I decided to go ahead and strip the outside down to bare cast. I have some paint samples on the way that hopefully will be pretty close to the original green. The plan is an epoxy primer/sealer followed by a couple of coats of single stage urethane with a little clear mixed into the final coat for durability. I am contemplating picking up some glyptol and putting another coat on the inside. Here are a few pics of the crankcase. All cleaned up and ready for a coat of paint. I think it cleaned up pretty well. And, a couple of parts that I picked up from DES and a few that I had gotten elsewhere earlier.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Crancase_Cleaned_Up.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Crancase_Interior.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Crancase_Interior_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/Aftermarket_Parts.jpg)
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Oops, almost forgot. I also measured ring gap today. @ top .013" @ 1/4 down .009" @ middle .010" @ 3/4 down .011" @ bottom .012". There is a little taper and a little wear at the ridge as was suggested but all in all pretty good. I need to go find the spec for where they should be, that seems a little tight.
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Well, it appears these things have an affinity for multiplying like any other hobby. Clearly if you leave a stack of Lister CS parts sitting in a corner somewhere it will end up with a couple of friends.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Base.JPG)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Pair.JPG)
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hi . Been enjoying the process your going thru to rebuild your engine. keep up the great work and I look forward to your updates.
Thank You.
Derek
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Thanks Derek. I am working on it but it is slow going.
I do have a little update though.
I managed to get the base that I acquired stripped down and repainted. It took a couple of weekends of free time to get 60 years of gunk, grime, rust, and paint off but I got it stripped down. The biggest challenge was getting all of the rust and buildup off of the underside. It took quite the collection of brushes, wire wheels, scrapers, and a needle scaler to get into all the nooks and crannies. I treated the rust that had gotten into the pores that I couldn't get to with evaporust and ended up with a nice grey iron surface. I also had to take a rotary burr to the adjustment slots as they had been pretty poorly finished at Lister when the base was cast and it looked like a hammer and chisel mechanic may have been in there at some point. I coated the underside with glyptol and I may go back for a second coat at some point as there are a couple of spots that are a little thin. The top got 2 coats of epoxy primer and 2 coats of single stage urethane paint. The paint turned out pretty close to the original Lister paint that I have to compare to. It may be a tad darker. I will try to get better pics for comparison once the paint has cured and I can handle it to get it out into the sunlight. Here are a couple of pics as I was finishing up this evening. Poor lighting but gives and idea.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Base_2.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10020/normal_Base_1.jpg)
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Nice. By the time your project is completed it will probably be close to being in show genny condition. im still looking for a 10/1 or 12/1 or 12/2 for myself, unfortunately in all my travels here in alberta Ca. I haven't seen 1 that is available for sale or in decent enough shape to rebuild. Seen 2 that needed crankshafts and cases not including anything else the rebuild was going to require.
Good Job and keep up the work, the light at the end of the tunnel is a lot brighter than when you first started this project.
Derek
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1st class workmanship and finish work, Bronco! She's going to be a gem when you're finished.
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Great work
I will watch with real interest the process of getting the top deck of the crankcase perpendicular to the centre-line of the bore and how that relates to the crankshaft being perpendicular to it, and getting the crush right for clearance at the piston/head interface, and how "square" the piston comes out in relation to the plane of the head . . .
Will be really interesting to see how all that comes out in an engine that is 3/4 of a century old - it may need no work at all to be in tolerance?
I'm interested in the comparison between how it will measure up compared with what has needed doing to some Indian ones to make them straight, vertical, square, perpendicular etc etc
I'm interested, too, in how you will address bolting it down to a base and getting each "foot/corner" snug down to the base without loading any of them up more than the others
Everyone's approaches to these questions seems to be slightly different
The process that you have gone through with examining the cylinder, thinking about the wear and where it is; then thinking about the low working revs, big rotational masses and under-stressed design and coming up with the conclusion that the bore is "serviceable" (which is a sensible conclusion IMHO) - I will be very interested to see how that sort of thinking applies to the other dimensional questions.
After all, lots of them have done decades of work just "as they are". IMHO there is a combination of two things happening there:
Over-built design, good metallurgy, generous but well-thought-out tolerances, low working temperatures and low RPM
That, and all combined with the experience of decades of building and refining the design of these things that lived inside the head of the design engineers who had the benefit of seeing hundreds of these and earlier designs working really hard over years and decades and whose observations influenced the designs in small subtle ways that we probably can't see and that the Indians certainly don't know about
Down here at the Bottom of the World, many hundreds of these machines ran sheep-shearing shed where they would work 12 or 14 hours a day, seven days a week for a couple of months twice a year, powering the overhead shafts that drove the machines which shore (sheared?) tens of thousands of sheep every year. Typically installed in the '30s or '40s, many were still working loyally into the '70s and '80s as the cost of getting electricity to remote farm sites was too high to afford
I will be interested to watch a well-documented rebuild of an example of these
Thanks, Mike
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Thanks Gents.
I haven't made much progress lately. Work is interfering with my play time and I got sucked into another project. I hope to be back on the Lister this fall. I do have a whole pile of parts including a new crankshaft and a couple of original heads that I imported with the last two CS engines.