Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: Jake65mm on December 16, 2015, 01:43:16 AM
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So im sure most of you heard the story of the new in crate lister's that went on the auction block a few months back. I consider myself extremely fortunate to be in a position to be able to bid on one of the 12/2's and win. It was a large investment but I have been looking for the perfect show engine for many years and I figured that was the perfect candidate with a once in a lifetime story to go with it. So I wanted to share with the lister community the pictures I took during the uncrating process. I will be slowly posting more as they upload.
(http://i.imgur.com/pio5HKwl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KQmNJu2l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2HIs7OWl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/e4x4uzwl.jpg)
Proud papa in this picture
(http://i.imgur.com/4vT8BScl.jpg)
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Truly a thing of beauty! A piece of history that is worth preserving. ;)
I have been consumed with the Lister Petter closing and plant re-location or would have probably made time for uncrating and setting up a couple of ours here by now. We are buried in the modern Alphas at the moment.
dieselgman
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Drop dead gorgeous! I am so jealous! ;D
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The question of the day might be...
"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"
It is not beyond reason to approach the foundries already making the clones and have them prepare new molds and perhaps upgrade some tooling and manufacturing methodology to produce a high-quality product. I would guess that we would need a base of about 500 copies and $100,000 investment to get the thing properly engineered and underway.
dieselgman
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The question of the day might be...
"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"
It is not beyond reason to approach the foundries already making the clones and have them prepare new molds and perhaps upgrade some tooling and manufacturing methodology to produce a high-quality product. I would guess that we would need a base of about 500 copies and $100,000 investment to get the thing properly engineered and underway.
dieselgman
That would be amazing but do you think you could rally enough people up to have the funds available for such a thing? I've never personally dealt with the company's that manufacture the clones and spares so I didn't know something like that was even possible.
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I would think that with around 25 orders this could be acted on. Individual castings can be done as a gradual step-by-step approach and we know how to get that done. There are foundries at the ready for anything we can imagine if the funds and original examples are made available to them.
dieselgman
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What a thing of beauty! Great find!
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I would like to be involved in this.
I would think that with around 25 orders this could be acted on. Individual castings can be done as a gradual step-by-step approach and we know how to get that done. There are foundries at the ready for anything we can imagine if the funds and original examples are made available to them.
dieselgman
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The question of the day might be...
"How much $$$ would you be willing to pony up if you could purchase a true replica (perhaps as parts) of one of these Dursleys - recast from an untouched original sample and closely monitored for top quality control?"....
dieselgman
Would this be a 6/1, 8/1 or a twin ? I'd be very interested in a "updated" style with better lube in the areas that lack, and a spin on filter.
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I would think the 8/1 would be a good first project along these lines because it would have the widest appeal and probable demand as a genset build.
You probably know by now that my own preference would be getting the pure original specs and engineering details met first... modifications or updates as potential additions - secondary.
dieselgman
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Being as all new molds would need to be made, why not pursue USA manufacturing? Sure it would be more expensive, but also leaps and bounds higher quality. If it is to be a kit engine I imagine most US foundries could get it closer to spec and save the shipping. I personally would much rather spend my dollar that way.
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....US foundries ...
The EPA still allows US foundries to melt metal ? All that carbon footprint !! ;D
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My experience with US foundries is simply that they have closed doors, could not compete in today's global marketplace.
Question, who is still in operation here?
dieselgman
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U.S. foundries to manufacture castings? I don't know of any though here in Canada, I would bet the Lunenburg Foundry could do it.
I worked there as charge hand carpenter in the late 1980's when they made the Atlantic make-and-break engines as custom orders.......maybe they still do!
Here's a link to the foundry site http://www.lunenburgfoundry.com/ and here is a youtube link showing an 8Hp twin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg8W6gYTXR4
When I worked there there was a blind machinist (yes, blind) who did all the machine work on the Atlantic castings, then assemble the engines. He could tell a drill size by feel and read a micrometer with his fingers. The pattern storage area up in the attic of this place was incredible, they never threw anything away.
The actual foundry was a throwback to the turn of the century (1900) operation. Not much different from the Rajkot operations we see today, but the foundrymen wore boots and leather aprons. After a pour, the foundry floor was like a vision of walking through hell......dark and smoking with glowing molten metal. I was privileged to be present at several pours, wish I had filmed it.......an amazing and dangerous process in which each man has his particular part to play. When the clay plug was smashed and the iron began to flow, there was a careful rhythm to the pours. After one run through with all the ladles being carried to and emptied into the molds, the stopper would jam another clay plug into the retort outlet, everyone drank a dipper of water from a barrel. Then line reformed, the plug was smashed and the pour continued.......what a show!
This is a family run business and has been for more than 100 years. It would be surprising if they could not make good castings to replicate a Lister.
Can they do it in a financially viable way? You'd have to ask.
Cheers,
Hugh
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Emails sent to them... will report back.
dieselgman
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There is also at least one foundry in Ontario near Kitchener/Waterloo run by some Mennonites who make cast iron parts for wood stoves. I can work on their contact information if needed
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This one is located in Alabama, I am still trying to find the foundry down south that was producing the best blacksmiths
firepot I have ever used, they were still in business a few years ago....I will keep looking...
http://www.imperialcastinginc.com/ (http://www.imperialcastinginc.com/)
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And there's a foundry in Texas as well:
http://www.ociw.com/
Oil City Iron Works
They do foundry work, pattern making, molding, cast iron, machining, etc.
They are in Corsicana, which is just South of Dallas.
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Thanks guys... if American iron can compete in small jobs, there is absolutely no reason not to keep the full manufacturing job close to home. We will query them all for some estimates to develop molds and tooling and come up with some $$ cost numbers to work with.
We almost purchased a defunct foundry in central Kansas a few years back... I spent a lot of time with developing a business plan around the idea but circumstance and financials prevented completion of the deal.
dieselgman
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OCIW is the foundry partner that produces the TFS anvil series. They have the reputation of being one of the finest anvils produced
for Blacksmiths today. They are one of only 3 or 4 that are still produced in the USA. Corsicana is only an hour away from me...
You would think I would have toured it by now...
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Re micrometer, Starret makes a brail model. Im not shittin' ya, I saw it in their catalog.
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I think the main thing would be the price. Listeroids are in the $2500-3000 range it seems now for indian quality. If you could produce near dursley quality again and keep it as far under $5k a unit I think guys would go for that. I know I would be quite interested.
I miss when all the great american companies had their own foundries even, like JI Case. What a shame we have lost our manufacturing might.
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This is a fascinating possibility. Question though: The subject of "making molds" and their cost has been mentioned. Every iron works that I've seen (and every book on the subject) uses hand rammed sand molds. Are you talking about the patterns perhaps? A simple wooden pattern for a part is not that complicated and once made is good for many, many pours before it needs to be made again.
Crankshafts: This is (or should be) a forged part, not cast, so it might be necessary to source those from India since I think the cost here in the U.S. would be too great. Maybe not, but it's something to consider.
So, would these be finished kits, i.e. all machine work done or rough casting kits.....or maybe both? Lots of questions but you can bet I'll be keeping an eye on this post!
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I have emailed and filled in web-forms for all of the mentioned small foundries... zero responses so far.
The Indian crank forgings have for the most part been quite good... maybe a bit of a tune up in the machining details and additional surface hardening will be required though.
I do not know the exact mold preparation procedures for these complex parts, but certainly a multi-step process involving reusable patterns will be indicated.
dieselgman
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I have emailed and filled in web-forms for all of the mentioned small foundries... zero responses so far.
dieselgman
That is a shame. It seems getting a call back is as hard as getting something made in the US these days. I usually just revert to calling manufacturers and going down the phone tree these days. Kicking an email down the road for another day seems to be the norm. Good luck and thanks for the work you are putting in on this.
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I worked in an aluminium foundry many years ago for short time.
I have been involved with tooling and machining, in one
form or another with many different materials, for most of
my life.
I would think these engines could be aluminum except for the
obvious crank, rod, wrist pin and most of the fuel system....etc...
Wood forms, or "patterns", and sand moulds would work fine.
Lets see, crankcase, bearing holders, cylinder, crankcase door, intake, exhaust manifolds,
head, water manifolds, cast valve cover ( that would be nice ! ) and probably a few other parts
I have forgotten, could be done here, in the USA. Other parts could be imported : crank,
rod, fuel system.....etc.
A Google search provided several aluminum foundrys across the USA.....
Any thoughts?
Gary
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To my knowledge, aluminum casting is far more expensive and technical than iron... and aluminum would require extra reinforcing webs in critical stress areas. I think that heavy iron may be the best thing for blocks and cylinders. Of course the valve covers and other plates could easily be of aluminum... valve covers always were.
dieselgman
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Most aluminium products we see today are injection or pressure molded.
That requires expensive tooling and associated machinery.
The current liseroid models we see today are sand cast. That is ancient
technology. There are companies in the states today that still use it.
The reference to strength I would question. I would think the basic parts
would provide enough "meat" for crank case, cylinder, head.....etc.
Let me state here I am NOT an expert in metallurgy, but somewhat knowledgeable
about tools, tooling and setup.
Mostly just thinking out loud.
I'll amble off now,
Gary
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Hmmmmm..... An "Aircraft Version" aluminum Lister.....
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Also, think coefficient of thermal expansion, it will be significantly different changing from iron to aluminum. Aluminum alloys have been widely used in automotive engines where weight vs power is at a high premium and especially in some of the air-cooled Lister versions - not in the Lister crankcases and never the cylinders though - except for the little AC model which is designed and built around a desire for minimum weight and maximum portability. We like the heavy iron in our antiques... :laugh:
dieselgman
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Weight just may be a stabilizing factor. Not in the "Big is Beautiful" mantra.
Casey
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12/2 update, this engine is now on a skid and ready for cool springs. Leaving early tomorrow morning.
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(http://i.imgur.com/uRSvzSLl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2x1u9R6l.jpg)
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Very neatly done.
...can't help to wonder how you're going to move that... :o How do you offload at the show? Do the organizers provide lifting equipment or are you left to your own devices?
(Video of it running?)
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Now that looks great.
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The show I went to this week I just left it on the trailer and ran it there, I intend to buy a tilt deck to make loading and unloading a little easier. Or if I find a set heavy duty enough just put it on wheels.
Very neatly done.
...can't help to wonder how you're going to move that... :o How do you offload at the show? Do the organizers provide lifting equipment or are you left to your own devices?
(Video of it running?)
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I have a single axle trailer that I tilt for offloading. I'll take some pics of how I do it - but not anytime soon. I have lots more work to do before I can take the Lister for a ride...
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Here is a video of either the first or second run still mounted on the factory skid. What a fun day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp5qRsRTL0s
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re building engines
. You may have seen this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_EDxV_rRc
Cheap and plentiful labour, non existent safety requirements, lots of cheap machinery. Ill try to find the foundry video, open channels of sand with rivers of molten iron, workers in shorts, barefooted and no goggles....... Find an iron foundry in america that can get away with this, you are in with a chance....
Hell, even ,your environment people would prevent the use of such engines en mass....
The west simply cannot compete....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-jD-lGouuE
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re building engines
. You may have seen this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_EDxV_rRc
Cheap and plentiful labour, non existent safety requirements, lots of cheap machinery. Ill try to find the foundry video, open channels of sand with rivers of molten iron, workers in shorts, barefooted and no goggles....... Find an iron foundry in america that can get away with this, you are in with a chance....
Hell, even ,your environment people would prevent the use of such engines en mass....
The west simply cannot compete....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-jD-lGouuE
So painful to watch !
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I agree completely with ONE exception..........I always have some sort of eye protection on, even if it's only my reading glasses to see better. I've had a steel splinter in the eye and it's not something I want to experience again. I also do not wear rings, watches, long sleeves, etc. around my lathe or mill.........common sense for cryin' out loud. I also avoid earmuffs, hard hat, Kevlar safety suit, groin protection (?) etc. etc. Sure, I've had my share of minor cuts and bruises and, surprisingly, I learned to avoid those.
But aside from that, LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE! Go give your canned safety talk to people that will nod their robotic heads in agreement. I have work to do.
Another thought: If I wanted the cushiest job in the world, I'd be a "safety supervisor". You know, the guy that gets paid a six figure salary for sitting in his office studying new posters to put on the shop walls while he plans his next monthly safety meeting, advising men who have been doing their job safely for more years than he's been alive. Talk about a great career!
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Wow!
Donald Trump you are needed here. Bravado recruits awaiting your wisdom.
I have no idea how old the mind is before it starts thinking about tomorrow. Mine jelled with the death of my father. His early death was brought on by his decisions and choices but they were based on ignorance. A dangerous place to plan for life. Now that I've helped a few more people into the box of life I'm even more safety conscious with a stern eye on the long ball.
The hard ball of ignorant safety planning is that in modern societies the people pay for the sickly and dying. Those that are educated enough to keep away from dusts, chemicals and falling crap often find niches where the taxes are low and life is sweet on the golf course.
Life a mere 100 years ago was hard and most labor suffered from back trouble brought on by being walked upon. Remember when the United States started Social Security 80 years ago the retirement age was set to 65 because few people lived that long. Now the median age is over 65. Just shows how stupid we've become.
Casey
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(for me the painful part was the fellow with the sledge hammer working on the crankshaft)
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Here in NZ, we have a fascination for high visibility jackets, those plastic floppy things in florescent colours that get tangled in everything. They are so common that they go unnoticed. Yesterday I saw a sign above a door way in our local engineering shop that said " caution, low doorway" Im now expecting any day now signs reading "caution, sign ahead"
Didnt mean to derail this topic though, but this worksafe crap is over the top now, one reason the Chinese can take us over economically, the other of course being western greed of shipping the manufacturing offshore and still reaping the short term profits. Hats off to China, India....good on them, we deserved it through our own stupidity.
They get the job done that we can no longer do. I see too that even in a legislated "safe" cotton wool environment, the stats in America say one in 5 is morbidly obese, 1 in 7 is hooked on drugs...... perhaps they need a safety sign and poster for that too.
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One problem with your theory Glort, it requires a person to accept personal responsibility for his actions, afraid that isn't going to happen. It always somebody else s fault don't ya know???? ???
I completely agree with your views on this nonsense but we are in a shrinking minority, I saw a women last week running a string line trimmer in her yard and she was wearing a forestry helmet with full face shield (eye protection good idea) and earmuffs( good idea) plus chaps such as worn when running a chainsaw ;D, Elbow length heavy duty gloves ;D Carhart type insulated coveralls( it was 95 out) ??? Knee high heavy duty boots PLUS had one of those green red safety vest on and EXACTLY what you just said came to my mind,,,,, You are obviously a blooming idiot and your going to find a way to get hurt in spite of looking like a fool wearing all that garb,,,
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HEAT STROKE! IT WAS 96 IN HOTLANTA YESTERDAY.
overbore
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I completely agree with your views on this nonsense but we are in a shrinking minority, I saw a women last week running a string line trimmer in her yard and she was wearing a forestry helmet with full face shield (eye protection good idea) and earmuffs( good idea) plus chaps such as worn when running a chainsaw Grin, Elbow length heavy duty gloves Grin Carhart type insulated coveralls( it was 95 out) Huh Knee high heavy duty boots PLUS had one of those green red safety vest on and EXACTLY what you just said came to my mind,,,,, You are obviously a blooming idiot and your going to find a way to get hurt in spite of looking like a fool wearing all that garb,,,
Of course, once she finished setting the sprinkler she went back to pushing her dead beat husband's corpse through the industrial chipper that was being repossessed the next day. ;)
This tread does remind me of my brother laughing at my respirator and googles spray painting costume. He couldn't hear me talking to his doctor about the final solution as he chocked to death on his own bodily fluids due to advanced emphysema two months before dying. A very tough two months. It was almost like being water-boarded a half dozen times a day.
Best wishes to you on your life choices,
Casey
Resident Wuss,
Land Mark Decisions
I'm still dreaming of a Lister twin pumping my lungs full of spent vegetable oil. Is it as hard on your health as spent diesel?
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Casey,
I am not a cave man and am VERY susceptible to ISO. If I drive by a body shop and get a strong whiff I am in immediate breathing trouble. However I do paint with hardened paints. I run a full helmet with supplied air and full skin protection. I am a nut about eye protection due to my father loosing an eye in an accident. I do this by choice, not because some government nark is telling me to do so.
AT work we are choked by regulations that slow the productive and dont protect the stupid from being stupid, they are still stupid, dont accomplish anything and find way to get hurt when they accidentally get too close to something being done. That Woman using the trimmer is a classic example. SHe sure wasnt going to get hurt by that trimmer but I wonder if she made it through the job without suffering heat exhaustion??? Common sense, there is nothing to replace it.
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"they" really don't want us to work.
day job is senior network engineer, we have a lab where we evaluate new equipment. There is both 110 and 220 PDUs located in equipment racks, been that way for 25 years. A couple weeks ago someone, who was escorted by a regular into the lab, plugged 110 power strip into 220 PDU, tripped lab breaker. First time this has ever occurred, 'cause regulars know the difference.
We had to have a meet with safety regarding the incident. Safety engineer first suggested we move all the PDUs to their own racks, and run power in NEW overhead cable trays. They grudgingly accepted labelling voltage on the different PDUs. I gave up trying to explain everyone working in the lab should recognize different receptacles and we should hold the person who escorted the idiot responsible The escorting individual ended up getting rewarded for writing a good lessons learned document. We don't hold anyone responsible for bad decisions any more.
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Spending most of my life I as a one man show has insulated me from the safety gestapo.
Good Luck.
Casey
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One of my many job descriptions is a maintenance trainer. I have to try and protect the uninitiated youngsters (as well as old-timers) from injury or death when operating and maintaining dangerous machinery and electrical systems. Of course, their employers must comply with OSHA (occupational safety) regulation and numerous other agencies who are seeking and promoting various agendas. Personally, I have no particular problems with regulation that promotes the welfare and common good of the workers... most of it makes sense and is applicable to the situations that commonly occur on the job. Some of them prevent the employers from short-cutting procedures and principles of common safety and might even result in reduced job-related illness and injury.
Ultimately the results will depend on the actions and choices made by the individual. I always teach to personal responsibility for conditions or results, and that said, I don't believe you can really teach common-sense. Much of it comes from experience and applied knowledge. Some learn from their experiences... maybe others should not be playing with fire!
dieselgman
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I am from the Cleveland, Ohio area and there are foundries left around here. ELyria Foundry is one of the larger ones who could handle that order. Also there are smaller foundries that do casting work for sculptors around here as well. That might be worth asking them
Cheers
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I finally got the material all cut, welding jigs made, and the wheels are tacked together. I hope to have the undercarriage and steering components completed by the weekend.
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I went with a wider rear wheel with a double spoke pattern for the lister
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Lunnenburg castings are hideous; full of inclusions and just awful. I have had great luck with the Tomahawk Foundry in Rice Lake Wisconsin for all of my gray iron casting for both engines and stoves. I once had a firebox cast that had eight cores to pour it correctly. They did the job perfectly and in just two weeks time! The iron was super easy to machine and had no stress when it arrived. Send parts to Tomahawk Foundry if they are large or long run, and to Blue hills castings Inc. if they are one off or very small. Same address, different process: 2337 29th st. Rice Lake WI (I think the zip is 54868. Speak with Allan, and the prices are quite affordable.