Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: oldnslow on July 11, 2006, 10:32:25 PM

Title: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: oldnslow on July 11, 2006, 10:32:25 PM
Just wondering out loud: if a Listeroid were imported into Canada and combined with a generator head on a common frame, would they then be considered a "generator" for the purpose of sale? They could then be sold and exported as generators to the US, no?
Could any of our Canadian friends look into this?

Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: JohnF13 on July 12, 2006, 12:46:20 AM
I already do that for some of my customers, but I hadn't thought about the U.S. importation implications. I think it will be a decision by the U.S. EPA folks.  We are still fine up here, no problems bringing the engines in whole for the forseeable future so it might be an option.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: altopro on July 12, 2006, 01:44:08 AM
Hello,

Having the engine on a generator might confuse the regular custom officer but it still doesn't make the engine legal as per the new EPA laws.

Any engine or engine equipped machine sold in USA must now comply with the new EPA regulations for it's category. Being an engine only or a generator (or lawnmower, truck, ATV), it would still need to be certified. The regulation might be a little different depending on category (Stationary, off-road engines, on-road engines...) but every machine still needs to be certified except for military engines, model engines, and a few others not really applicable for a Lister.

The only way you could get away if you need to import an engine in the US from Canada are:
(For educational purpose ONLY)


1. Import a pre April 06 engine
New EPA law didn't not apply then and engine made before that date are exempted to comply to the new law.

2. Import the engines in pieces as spare parts (be careful here not to get the hole engine shipped at once)

Some US dealers are already importing parts from India selling them as kit. Selling a complete engine would be illegal unless you are an EPA certified manufacturer. Bringing over an Indian made engine from Canada looks easier than building the engine from a kit. You would be sure that all parts will be there and that the engines was factory tested.

3. Pick up the engine yourself in Canada, import it personally under informal entry (2000USD or less).

I have reports that some custom officers don't even know what EPA means!
There is no way that the guy at the border can know all regulations on all products.
Personal imports by US citizens are not the top priority of custom officers, they have enough job with other more important things.
They might check inside the box but they are not looking for the manufactured date, there are looking for you know what... (Undocumented workers, Terrorists, drugs, nuclear weapons, and anything else to justify their jobs...)

BTW, I'm sold out. I have no more pre-april06 Listers (Except for few Petteroids and my personal Listeroid). When I get my next batch, I don't see why I would not sell an engine to an American Tourist. We all know that these new EPA regulations on stationary engines should not include hobby engines 50HP or less.

Email me if you have any questions!

Good luck!


PAT
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: t19 on July 12, 2006, 02:38:59 AM
And who is to say you can't get a company in India to label thier machines as of 2000, the Y2K special... money talks
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: mobile_bob on July 12, 2006, 03:00:23 AM
who is to say now big a model airplane is?

i have seen some very large model airplanes, some with very large engines?

i might just be ornery enough to mock up a full size plane, and order a lister and claim it is to fit my model plane,,, hehe

i know, i know...

it is a thought though, i bet there is a limit on model engine sizes in cc huh?
probably 50 cc limit.

bob g
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: GuyFawkes on July 12, 2006, 01:02:25 PM
who is to say now big a model airplane is?

i have seen some very large model airplanes, some with very large engines?

i might just be ornery enough to mock up a full size plane, and order a lister and claim it is to fit my model plane,,, hehe

i know, i know...

it is a thought though, i bet there is a limit on model engine sizes in cc huh?
probably 50 cc limit.

bob g


God, I've been saying this for months, if engines are restricted do like europeans and call them anything except engines, remove the fuel system and you have an old fashioned water cooled compressor.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: mobile_bob on July 12, 2006, 02:45:41 PM
air compressor? hmmmmm?

now thats beautiful!

"yessir mister epa inspector, i ordered me a couple big ole air compressors to pressure test my neuclear reactor core"

i guess that probably wouldnt help, but seriously...

design a cheap checkvalve to take the place of the injector and then you would have an aircompressor easy enough even to demonstrate.

bob g
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: twombo on July 12, 2006, 03:17:02 PM
Uuuummm, Bob,  I believe that is Noo-Q-Ler!!

Yes,  air compressor.... that really is elegant!

Mike
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: Andre Blanchard on July 12, 2006, 04:11:50 PM
I have a 6/1 and a 12/2 that when all is setup the generator head will be able to be driven from either engine but normal operation will be the 12/2 driving the gen head and a clutch to the 6/1 which will be setup as and air compressor.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=10034&pos=-184

Barrowed a CAT 226 skid steer from a friend (cost me some fuel and I am going to wire up the lights on the trailer so he can stop sneaking around on back roads) and have been moving dirt around for the engine shed, last night rented an auger and drilled 22 4' deep post holes in just under 2 hours.  Was taking it easy trying to get the holes positioned as close as possible.  May yet get it closed up before snow.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: oldnslow on July 12, 2006, 04:46:05 PM
Thanks guys,
Air compressor. Parts. Tourist pick up. Or just get an original. Great ideas. Just thought a post like this would put it in one place to give our "engineless" members some ideas.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: SCOTT on July 12, 2006, 05:44:46 PM
Hey Guys
There is a very simple solution to the EPA “problem”

Buy an engine from a dealer who understands the regs and offers EPA compliant engines.  I have some due in this week and will be ordering more soon.

BTW anyone who takes a 600lb “air compressor” or partial engine kit and turns it into a working diesel engine is considered by the EPA to be an engine manufacturer.   This person is now responsible for compliance with the regs.  Granted the likelihood of the EPA knocking on your door is very low, but why take the chance?  Does it make sense trying to "beat the system" when there is a legitimate way to get engines?  Take a look at the risk/ reward and make your decision. 
Scott
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: Andre Blanchard on July 12, 2006, 06:49:29 PM
Hey Guys
BTW anyone who takes a 600lb “air compressor” or partial engine kit and turns it into a working diesel engine is considered by the EPA to be an engine manufacturer.   This person is now responsible for compliance with the regs.  Granted the likelihood of the EPA knocking on your door is very low, but why take the chance?  Does it make sense trying to "beat the system" when there is a legitimate way to get engines?  Take a look at the risk/ reward and make your decision. 
Scott


Countless people build engines out of all kinds of things.

A little rebellion now and then is a good thing. :)
It reminds you who your friends are.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: hotater on July 12, 2006, 09:19:44 PM
Its easier to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes...go get the engine and haul it home.  EPA?  What's that?, ask the Border guy.  He's the one that needs to show cause NOT to let you through the gate, it's not your place to beg your way back home!!

...but I WON'T go anywhere without a firearm or nine, so I just wave when I turn around and head back south.  I can't think of any reason to go TO Canada, just through it to get  to Alaska.   ;)
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: t19 on July 12, 2006, 09:43:11 PM
Its easier to ask forgiveness than permission sometimes...go get the engine and haul it home.  EPA?  What's that?, ask the Border guy.  He's the one that needs to show cause NOT to let you through the gate, it's not your place to beg your way back home!!

...but I WON'T go anywhere without a firearm or nine, so I just wave when I turn around and head back south.  I can't think of any reason to go TO Canada, just through it to get  to Alaska.   ;)

reason #1  GREAT BEER
reason #2  LISTER/LISTEROID ENGINES
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: oldnslow on July 12, 2006, 09:50:24 PM
I think many here would get personal satisfaction out of converting a "600 lb compressor" into an engine. I doubt the EPA would consider a person an "engine manufacturer" for assembling one or two engines for personal use, nor would they have any way of knowing you assembled one because the sale of parts is not tracked. Fill out an import certificate or buy a certified engine and there will be a record of it somewhere....

If dealers can sell groups of parts (kits) that have the same or better quality and support as the engines they sold previously, they will continue to build leverage with the Indian exporters, eventually fiinding the best sources. This could be a better situation for future engine buyers because the best sources could be used to assemble the best engine. The end user then assumes the responsibility if the parts somehow become a running engine.

Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: altopro on July 13, 2006, 01:52:58 AM
The air compressor idea is a good one GuyFawkes  ;D  Also, I wonder if these engine would make a good piston water pump? Many old piston water pump look like engines. It's not that I really want to pump water with my Lister block but still, I think it would work at customs saying that, plus it could probably be done for real.

Also, what about the Military engine way??? Just thinking out loud... People buy all kind of surplus (non-EPA) military engines. As far as I know they are still considered military engines after being released to the civilian world. In 10 years or so, the military will be selling large amount of non-EPA surplus engines. Does a military engine needs to be owned by the military? And what about ordering a foreign Military engine like people do for Unimogs... I'm pretty sure the Indian military must be using Listeroids and Petteroids. Actually, I think the US and Canadian military do have some Lister-Petter brand engines for pumps and power generations... Ok, no one will try this one but it's weird that a government is the only one that doesn't need to follow it's own regulations. Ya, I know fighting the Terrorists is always a good reason for doing anything. I bet you the military probably has more non-EPA engines than the number of Listeroids in USA right now.

About the EPA folks. I don't think they have ressources for going after the illegal Listeroids out there! What does the typical EPA enforcement officer looks like? If they do exist, they probably have enough job searching for real pollution like around factories, power plants. Also, they must be very busy making sure all engine manufacturers comply... As far as I know, no one is concerned about the UL officers finding their non-UL certified ST head.  EPA is a regulation office, not the FBI.  :-X

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: GuyFawkes on July 13, 2006, 03:01:53 AM
The air compressor idea is a good one GuyFawkes  ;D 

Yeah, but it's MINE and I'm gonna PATENT it and SUE evryone.... lmao

Seriously, I have seen old "worthless" engines, some of them listers, converted to air compressors rather than being scrapped because it was easier than smashing them up and carting them off.

No way to fault it, you can make a 2 stroke out of any compressor you like.
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: mobile_bob on July 13, 2006, 05:48:30 AM
as a mechanic, the listeroid kit makes alot of sense to me.

here  i can get a partial engine that has not been run, (thank god), disassemble it,
and blue print the damn thing the way i want it in the first place.

i am convinced that this is the only real way of getting a quality long lasting engine from india.

think about it, a partial engine that has not been run, likely will not have any damage, careful disassembly
cleaning, inspection, honeing and polishing then reassembled correctly.

nice option

with these kit engines at least 99% of the machining is already done, the last 1% anyone with some inclination can get there and have a good engine in the process.

will it be as good as an original, maybe, perhaps, the only difference then would be the material it is made of.
i would suppose hard liners are available, certainly high quality tapered brgs are available, high quality springs and fasteners are available.

i am excited about it, and i don't figure the EPA is going to waste time and resources prosecuting an individual for doing one.
considering that it takes as much time and money to prosecute one little guy with a listeroid as it does to prosecute a manufacture.

i aint old enough to have been a rum runner, bootlegger, or that sort of thing
and i am too old and hopefully too smart to be a drug runner or dealer
but one engine or two for my own consumption, hell ya
by the time they catch me, i would be old enough to need their support anyway, :)

i can hear it now, "hey buddy what are you in for?"
"i'm doing 5 to 10 for a listeroid" ooooooohh!
better watch out for me, i wont stab ya, but i might drop a flywheel on your head
too funny :)

bob g
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: hotater on July 13, 2006, 05:59:16 AM
  I was a Deputy Sherriff for about five years a long time ago....looking back on it, I'd never have caught ANY body if it wasn't for their guilty conscience tipping me off.

My neighbor Hershel used to say, "I just acted as naturally ignorant as I could and ask a couple REALLY stupid questions and he let me GO!"

I could make a mint off the book I'd write (all comedy) about the day the EPA showed up to take my Listeroid!!
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: t19 on July 13, 2006, 01:30:35 PM
Guys why not just buy an orignial if you can't get a roid?  its not that hard or expensive to buy overseas and ship to North America.

I'm hoping to have mine here in about 2 weeks... will post lots of pictures on my web site
Title: Re: When a Listeroid is no longer a Listeroid
Post by: mobile_bob on July 13, 2006, 02:36:46 PM
"Guys why not just buy an orignial if you can't get a roid? "

if i couldnt get a roid, i probably still would go with a kit or whatever it took, reasons....

1. i am a bit funny when it comes to old iron, if i had a startomatic, i would probably want to restore it and not use it
as it was designed to be used. probably would just want to sit it in the living room and look at it.

2. i like the challenge of a listeroid kit, i feel i am mechanically inclined enough to handle the project.

3. This EPA thing was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, they say everyone has their breaking point
and this is mine.  As Thoreau wrote there is a time for civil disobedience, and to me the time has come.
i didnt ask for it, the war showed up at my door.

"game on buddy"

so pick up your wrenches, man the

bob g