Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: mcreeferson on March 15, 2015, 02:44:30 PM

Title: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 15, 2015, 02:44:30 PM
I took delivery of my 18/1 "parts" from Gary, and everything looks to be in order. Here are the pieces roughly stacked, as of course the first thing you want to do when you open that box is to see what she looks like...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Mobile%20Uploads/image.jpg)

Of course this is just for reference, I just wanted to see what it would look like if I were to assemble it, which of course I would never do...  ::)
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 15, 2015, 02:51:52 PM
I spent some time tearing her down over the past week and a half, an hour here, an few minutes there, when I had spare time. No big surprises there, though I am curious how you go about removing the oil pump lifter from the timing cover?

Here she is half naked...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Mobile%20Uploads/image_1.jpg)
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 15, 2015, 03:18:00 PM
Clearly, as beautiful as she is, she could use a nice long bath, so I rigged her up a nice jacuzzi tub to relax in.

A few dollars in pvc pipe and fittings made a decent air manifold for agitation...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Mobile%20Uploads/image_2.jpg)

A bunch of holes in the bottom...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Mobile%20Uploads/image_3.jpg)

I picked up a "bucket heater" for short money, added the secret soap, hooked up the air, and presto, a nice bath for my lady...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/P9trb8SKTRM

(Can't seem to get the embed to work properly...)
She is bubbling away as we speak, we'll see how she looks when she's done with her day at the spa...
Title: Re: All In
Post by: 32 coupe on March 15, 2015, 03:59:39 PM
Good work !
Can't wait to see what she looks like.

Gary

Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 15, 2015, 06:59:53 PM
Good work !
Can't wait to see what she looks like.

Gary

Can't wait to pull her out and see what sort of castings I've got.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: 38ac on March 15, 2015, 11:14:11 PM
I am curious how you go about removing the oil pump lifter from the timing cover?



The piece on the upper end that serves as the cam follower is pressed in. You have to remove it prior to pulling the rest out the bottom.  It is best to leave it alone unless there is a problem.

I have one of those sitting in the shop fgor quite some time, It just cant get to the top of the things to do list >:(
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 16, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
The piece on the upper end that serves as the cam follower is pressed in. You have to remove it prior to pulling the rest out the bottom.  It is best to leave it alone unless there is a problem.

I have one of those sitting in the shop fgor quite some time, It just cant get to the top of the things to do list >:(

Ah, I was wondering which end had to come out, it looks as though the lower end is pressed in as well. This is the one part that I wanted to put in the bath but couldn't, just because of that piece. I may just cut it and recreate, probably safer to do it this way rather than risk damaging the casting trying to pull the pressed in end without creating a jig.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 16, 2015, 07:20:35 AM
I have a little more cleaning up to do, but the bath worked out great. There weren't any real nasty surprises, pretty much what I had expected to see after all the reading I've done. Cursory inspection shows there is clearly a load of sand to remove, but that is not news to anyone I'm sure.

So here are a few of the bigger pieces, waiting for the next step...

(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Mobile%20Uploads/image_5.jpg)
Title: Re: All In
Post by: George A on March 16, 2015, 10:25:52 PM
Man, that came out nice and clean......but you never mentioned what type of "bath" it was. Heated sodium hydroxide perhaps?
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on March 17, 2015, 03:02:38 AM
Man, that came out nice and clean......but you never mentioned what type of "bath" it was. Heated sodium hydroxide perhaps?

Yes. i ended up mixing at a rate of 2lbs per each 5 gallons of water. With the air agitation running, an uninsulated barrel, and only a 1000 watt heater, I didn't get anywhere near boiling temp, but it doesn't seem that it was necessary. A nice strong solution, a 24 hour soak, and some elbow grease with a stiff dish brush during the rinse, got the job done. A pressure washer would have been easier than the brush, but it wasn't that bad, the paint came right off. Hitting it with the washer would have also made a big mess blasting all that paint around.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: BigCountry on March 26, 2015, 10:35:24 PM
I didn't realize DES had an 18-1. What RPM do they run? What kind of cost difference for that vs the 8-1?

Dave
Title: Re: All In
Post by: dieselgman on March 26, 2015, 11:28:54 PM
The 18/1 is rated at 750rpm. You could tune it for various other speeds (plus or minus 150 or so) though.

The current pricing is pretty steep compared to an 8/1. $3475 for the 18/1s in current batch. These were a small trial sampling... price could be driven down by volume if the demand was proven. A very large portion of the cost on these is involved with EPA pressures, extra Homeland Security, importation bonding and freight. Many thousands of extra dollars per container involved with inept bureaucracy and reactive government policies.

dieselgman
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on November 25, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
I'm not sure if this is considered heresy or not, but white is what I had on hand, so white she is.

Awlgrip "cloud white" to be exact. It was my first time spraying Awlgrip, or spraying anything from a real gun actually, so I am good with how it came out. Only 1 real sag out of all of those parts, and wouldn't you know it, it happens right in the middle of a flat surface. I figured for sure if I had any trouble it would be with the more complex pieces...
Oh well, one more step on the road to getting her running!
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/White%20Lister.jpg)
Title: Re: All In
Post by: dieselspanner on November 25, 2015, 04:44:26 PM
Back in the day, the Royal Navy used to paint all their engines white (well, all the ones I saw as a Bootneck landing craft coxswain, anyway) Supposedly so the leaks were more obvious.

Nothing wrong with that, IMHO!!

Cheers Stef

Title: Re: All In
Post by: EdDee on November 25, 2015, 10:13:29 PM
Very nice.... don't forget to mask the edge connectors on the dimm's before u spray them.... is that the 12gb model or the 32gb model... Lol... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on November 26, 2015, 02:42:56 AM
Very nice.... don't forget to mask the edge connectors on the dimm's before u spray them.... is that the 12gb model or the 32gb model... Lol... ;D ;D ;D

Ha! Took me a second to catch your meaning. One of my many hats is IT, that room, my office/lab/shop is currently brimming with gear. A couple servers being built, a new work station for the floor, plus my own workstation and a management terminal. There are screens, wires, and blinking lights everywhere, except that one little corner, in which the Listroid sits. Second comment out of first-time visitor's mouths, after the one about how many monitors I have on my desk, is usually something like "Is that a steam engine?".  ???
Title: Re: All In
Post by: listard-jp2 on November 26, 2015, 08:23:40 AM
I have a few questions and observations. Apart from the conversion to direct injection. I would be very interested to know what other modifications the Indians have done to the original CS design to be able to extract 18 BHP from this engine (the original Lister CS started life with just 5 BHP).

Clearly the Indian design has increased bore and stroke, but to cope with the increased stresses that direct injection (when compared to the original Lister CS indirect injection engine) places on the wrist pin and big end bearing journals it would be interesting to know if these have been increased in diameter from the original Lister dimensions (wrist pin 1.25" diameter, big end 2.5" diameter).

Also are the main bearings on a white metal bush or a taper roller bearing arrangement?

It is also interesting to note the other changes the Indians have made to the cylinder block. The water jacket inspection plates now seem to not be present, no doubt a cost reduction measure very similar with the last of the original Lister 8/1 and 16/2 engines, except that Lister engines used core plugs in place of the water jacket inspection plates.

Also knowing the problems experienced in the past with head gaskets, it will be interesting to see what happens with this engine, as it is a 4 bolt head, and presumably the increase in bore size has had the effect of reducing the sealing area of the head gasket.

The design of the direct injection cylinder head is interesting, does this Indian cylinder head rely upon a shrouded inlet valve to promote turbulence?

However, the conversion of Lister CS engines to direct injection is not a new Indian development. Listers and Ruston Hornsby were experimenting with this feature in the 1930's, see these threads:

http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39220

http://www.stationary-engine.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39519

The results of this experimentation then led to the design of this Ruston Hornsby engine (Lister and Ruston Hornsby were briefly in collaboration at this point in time) :


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ruston-VRH-VRHL-VRHN-VRHZ-3-4-Cylinder-parts-list-original-/321208306913#ht_139wt_1312

Apart from the presence of more cylinder head bolts (the Lister version was based on a JP engine). You will note the similarities between the Indian and the Ruston Hornsby VRH / Lister JP cylinder head.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: dieselgman on November 26, 2015, 02:18:23 PM
I can answer your questions... but will take some time to take close measurements and pictures of the details. I prefer to do it that way because I have found the other written details on these to contain many errors.

The crankshafts have heavy internal counterbalance weights, and they are situated in tapered roller bearings. The flywheels are slightly smaller diameter and quite a bit heavier than any of the other flywheel offerings.
The combustion chamber is a hollow in the piston crown, and these are using a wet sleeve cylinder liner arrangement.

dieselgman
Title: Re: All In
Post by: listard-jp2 on November 26, 2015, 02:31:05 PM
/\ Thanks, that would be appreciated.

I thought it was taper roller main bearings. But due to the limitations on crankshaft journal size created by the presence of the crankshaft timing gear, the taper roller bearing cannot be much heavier duty than its smaller listeriod cousins?

Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 01, 2015, 11:40:36 AM
Clearly the Indian design has increased bore and stroke, but to cope with the increased stresses that direct injection (when compared to the original Lister CS indirect injection engine) places on the wrist pin and big end bearing journals it would be interesting to know if these have been increased in diameter from the original Lister dimensions (wrist pin 1.25" diameter, big end 2.5" diameter).

The wrist pin on my unit measures 1.377, and the big end 2.753.

Also are the main bearings on a white metal bush or a taper roller bearing arrangement?

These are tapered rollers, pretty hefty ones (~.675 dia. rollers).
Title: Re: All In
Post by: 38ac on December 01, 2015, 02:00:52 PM


Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.


Yes they are larger.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: listard-jp2 on December 01, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
The wrist pin on my unit measures 1.377, and the big end 2.753.

Wrist pin wear on original lister CS 6/1 engines was always apparent on high running hour examples, so for an engine developing 3x the power, an increase of .125" is not alot (particuarly been as it is direct injection as this will place a lot more load on the wrist pin bush), it will be interesting to see the longevity of these items on high running hour engines. For comparison the Lister CE and JP range have 1.5" and 1.625" diameter wrist pins, and wear was seldom apparent on these engines.

Yes they are larger.

Its quite possible that the valves are the same size as the Indian version of Lister JP valves (as they are identical to the CS version apart from valve head diameter), making this an off the shelf item for the Indians.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 01, 2015, 04:02:54 PM


Also have the valve head diameters increased from the original CS size.


Yes they are larger.

Looks like 1.7 and 2 inch diameters on those valves...
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 08, 2015, 06:05:13 PM
One more step on the road to smoke. I whipped up a set of needle bearing roller followers out of tool steel. They need just a little cleaning up and I'll move on to getting the camshaft components cut and built up...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Roller%20Tappet.jpg)
Title: Re: All In
Post by: EdDee on December 09, 2015, 07:27:26 AM
Hi McR,

Nice job on those followers - add champion machinist to your qualifications - Quick question - are they for IP/Oil Pump or valves..... If valves, you are aware that changing from flat follower to roller follower changes the open/close/dwell/acceleration/characteristics of motion for the valve train(Possibly not so much to be of concern)?

Just a thought...

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: All In
Post by: listard-jp2 on December 09, 2015, 08:27:11 AM

/\ Injector pump cam follower. +1 on a nice job, but I would like to know if your needle roller bearing is running on a hardened shaft?

Does this engine have an oil pump or is it splash lubrication? I ask this because if it has an oil pump, on original single cylinder Lister CS engines, this follower is the one that will always wear out first, due to the marginal lubrication it gets.

Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 10, 2015, 12:36:55 AM
Hi McR,

Nice job on those followers - add champion machinist to your qualifications - Quick question - are they for IP/Oil Pump or valves..... If valves, you are aware that changing from flat follower to roller follower changes the open/close/dwell/acceleration/characteristics of motion for the valve train(Possibly not so much to be of concern)?

Just a thought...

Regds
Ed

They are for the valves. After reading 38ac's build thread, and learning about those indian valve trains, I decided I was going to make a big project bigger (as is may way) and fabricate an entirely new camshaft and lifter setup rather than try and make do with what I had. Necessary? No. But again, it is a weakness of mine to overdo things. I will make a new shaft and lobes to suit.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 10, 2015, 12:45:06 AM

/\ Injector pump cam follower. +1 on a nice job, but I would like to know if your needle roller bearing is running on a hardened shaft?

Does this engine have an oil pump or is it splash lubrication? I ask this because if it has an oil pump, on original single cylinder Lister CS engines, this follower is the one that will always wear out first, due to the marginal lubrication it gets.



Yes, the shaft is hardened.

The plan is to eliminate the stock oil pump, replace it with something I have a bit more faith in, and do a little work creating a system to distribute the oil in a bit more controlled manner.
Title: Re: All In
Post by: EdDee on December 17, 2015, 09:09:50 AM
Hi McR,

Just a thought.... New/better oil pump...Roller Followers....What about modding a set of hydraulic lifters to do an auto shutdown if oil pressure is low.... Also, they would be self setting and with the little hydraulic cushioning I think they would be much quieter too on the tappet end.....

Regds
Ed
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 17, 2015, 09:38:18 AM
Hi McR,

Just a thought.... New/better oil pump...Roller Followers....What about modding a set of hydraulic lifters to do an auto shutdown if oil pressure is low.... Also, they would be self setting and with the little hydraulic cushioning I think they would be much quieter too on the tappet end.....

Regds
Ed

That sounds cool, but my knowledge of hydraulic lifters is, well, I don't know anything about them. Maybe an added feature down the road if I get the mechanics of this working...
Title: Re: All In
Post by: mcreeferson on December 17, 2015, 09:43:24 AM
Picking away at it here and there. A couple of oil passageways to add, a few tapped holes to create to hold on the cap/lifter guide on (the disk in the background), and a hold down clamp arrangement for the two assemblies, and it will be time to start on the camshaft.
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/mcreeferson/Roller%20Tappet%202.jpg)