Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: mike90045 on January 28, 2015, 09:43:16 PM
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This morning, after about a 60 minute run at moderate load (2Kw, 6/1) as I was walking back to shut it down, I hear a new clank happening from 300' coming from the engine, at about every 15 sec or so. Very metallic and loud. I got the the electric controls and shut the load (battery charging) down, and gave it about another minute to cool a bit, then shut the fuel lever off. After I removed the load, I didn't hear the clank anymore and during spin down, I heard nothing unusual. Temps were fine, oil was full the day before. and a brief inspection and rocking the flywheels back and forth afterwards, revealed nothing.
A short phone call to Tom (Thank you Tom) and his suggestion was loose gib key/flywheel. I took a 2nd look at them, and the shaft collars are tight, keys look tight, and could not get anything to wiggle. I'll pull the belt off and inspect the driving side flywheel again, but if it all looks good, what would the next step be to do? I'm going to look inside the crankcase later today (had NRCS/USDA inspectors over this AM and couldn't get into it then)
What does detonation sound like on 6/1's ? It could have been that? I've got a fair amount of fluffy carbon blowing out the pipe, but the exhaust looks pretty clean burning. Burning Red Diesel with a 100:1 2 stroke in it. I cleaned some crud off the injector less than a dozen hours ago. It was not making the sound on every stroke, just 15, 20 sec intervals.
Baffled (Mike)
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What would chunks of carbon breaking loose, sound like ? Lots more fluffy carbon on my deflector, maybe I'm over oiling the valve spring wells.
Took the belt off the alternator, spun by hand CW & CCW, felt the crank, idler & cam gears, felt around in the sump, didn't find anything.
Flywheels are solid, rang each spoke, gib keys seem tight, no slop anywhere I could find. started and ran it for a couple minutes (rolls over real easy w/o the belt) belted it up, and ran again for a couple minutes, all seemed fine. I'm clueless and open to suggestions. I have shaft collars (2 piece style) on each shaft right up against the gib key, as a safety measure against falling off, and pant cuff protection.
I did find the 2 arms for the fuel tank (relocated a month ago) had a loose bolt each, so I pulled them both off completely, and reinstalled their bolts with thread sealer #2, to keep any pinhole leaks at bay. But I doubt those critters were making the sound I heard. I guess the next run will find me sitting nearby (NOT inline with the flywheels) with a string tied to the fuel control, and waiting, hopefully bored.
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What would chunks of carbon breaking loose, sound like ?
Like you describe, sounds like things are coming apart inside, like the engine just swallowed a 1/2" nut
Lots of fluffy carbon is a clue to problems also. Sounds like time for decoking to me. Although black residue is normal "lots" of fluffy residue would not be normal when burning #2 diesel and comes from injector problems. Check injector for pop off pressure, leak down and pattern.
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injector problems. Check injector for pop off pressure, leak down and pattern.
So, specs I have call for
Injector setting pressure (5/1 6/1 10/2 12/2) --- 90 atmospheres or 1325 lbs per square inch
&
Injector No: (5/1, 6/1, 10/2, 12/2) CAV BKB505S507b,
Nozzle No: CAV BDL30S46
dieselgman - are these normally in stock, and do you calibrate before shipping ?
( or is it another trip to a distant town where they fix/adjust things instead of replace ? )
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So, today I tried a short run, then loaded up in 500W increments till I was at 2600w, and it was just smooth. I let i t set there under load, and sprayed about 1/2 cup of water through the intake, didn't hear anything different, so I'm looking into injector issues and will try a new one when I get it.
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We keep the new pumps and injectors in stock... should already be factory calibrated and I have not seen any discrepancies.
We have a few nozzles and pump elements from time to time... but it is generally more cost effective to replace whole assemblies. If you are the type to tinker with your own stuff a lot, then I can see where cleaning and repairing would be attractive to you. In our shop, we have to consider the time involved and fixed costs attached to all activities... so generally prefer outright replacement unless I am just tinkering around with my personal projects.
dieselgman
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Under load today, the Noise started again, after about half hour, when it was good and warm. I backed off the power, and under 2KW of load, it was sounding normal. I loaded the spray bottle with 50% IPA (I don't have any methanol) and did about 10 oz into the intake, a few squirts, then a pause. I could easily quench the burn with a single heavy squirt, and so I avoided doing that. then the sun came out, and I shut down because I had no load (solar took over the battery charge).
So, while I suspect the "sound" is denotation or carbon, I think it's related to load/heat, and both flywheels seem quite secure, and after "ringing" them with a wrench, it's not the sound that I'm hearing.
I should have a new injector late this week, and now I'm finding nobody has a pop-off tester for setting the injector. May have to go to the next town down the road.
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Hey Mike, I've got a pop off tester just 2 towns down the road. It's never been used, so I can't guarantee it works.
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Hey Mike, I've got a pop off tester just 2 towns down the road. It's never been used, so I can't guarantee it works.
What is a POP off Tester ?
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The tester in question is a bench-mounted hand pump with pressure gauge used for testing proper injector function. You can also do a certain amount of injector testing right on your engine by simply connecting the injector to the pressure line without installing the injector into the head, and then rolling the engine over. This allows for inspection of proper nozzle operation but does not show you the operating pressure.
dieselgman
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SNIP
I loaded the spray bottle with 50% IPA (I don't have any methanol)
SNIP
Hmmm, that is an interesting use for Indian Pale Ale. :D
Sorry, that is the first thing I thought when I saw IPA.
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The one I have has a pressure gauge, so I guess it's an injector tester.
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Also commonly known as "pop-off" tester, "pop" tester, "bench" tester and so on.
dieselgman
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Mike,
I am wondering why you add 2 stroke oil in the fuel ??
Gary
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Mike's IP was making a creaking noise a bit of bio-diesel or oil seemed to help. In fact that reminds me, perhaps the noise Mike is hearing is the IP sticking and then popping open with a clank against the lifter. Mike I hope you're ready for the big storm coming this weekend.
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I'm adding 100:1 2 stroke oil to the fuel, which in the "States" has lowered lubricity , since the sulfur and other goodies was taken out. California diesel is now closer to jet fuel (no lubricity) than diesel. And the fuel pump was making a groaning noise till I got some nice bio-diesel into it, but the only local vendor is out of business and I can only get pump diesel. BD-20 is avaib at a card-loc pump station, but it's a pain to get, and has road tax, so I do the pain next door and get red diesel, save $1 gal road tax, and add some 2-stroke oil.
I don't think it is coming from a sticky pump plunger, does not seem to be from that area, and it appears to vary with load. I'm resigned to pulling the head when the weather clears, and after I get a calibrated injector, and we'll see if it's carbon in there, or if I get to keep looking.
Every time I look at the weather forecast
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=95490
they've added an inch of rain. So we are up to over 8 inches, 6" in the first 2 days, and then 2 more in the next 2 days. On flat land, it would be nothing, but in the mountains, we get some great storm surges :-\ I have a 48" culvert that I have never seen more than 18" of water in it, that FILLED and was over the road in the last 4" storm.
Water and fuel tanks are full, vehicles are staged along the roads, pulled the spillway boards, and opened the 4" mid-drain in the pond, so I should have enough freeboard to not overtop the berm. And woe to the weather forecaster if it's an "alarmist" forecast, and not realistic, because I'm dumping a lot of water tonight on their say-so, in a drought.
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Are you sure it's not from a loose gib key? When you hit the fuel shutoff valve, or compression release, does the clank go away? It might be that you have clearance between the gib key and the keyway in the crankshaft and/or the keyway in the flywheel. I had that problem with my Ashwamegh, and after measuring the width of the gib key, and the keyways, found there was a total of 0.029" mismatch. On every power stroke the crankshaft would slip and fetch up against the key, even though the key was tight. Made a clank that sounded like it was coming from the middle of the crankcase, so I initially thought it was rod knock.
I inserted brass shims between the sides of the key and the keyways, which took care of the problem. That might be one reason why the Indians insert gib keys using sledgehammers.
And send us some of your rain. It looks like another dry year down South. We had only 5" last year.
Quinn
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/Gib%20Key%20Insertion%20Indian%20Style_zpszf0ibfyq.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/quinnf_01/media/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/Gib%20Key%20Insertion%20Indian%20Style_zpszf0ibfyq.jpg.html)
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/GibKeyDimensions_1_zps44bf4c53.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/quinnf_01/media/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/GibKeyDimensions_1_zps44bf4c53.jpg.html)
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I'm pretty sure it's not gib/flywheel. Ran 90 min this AM, and it's quite responsive to load and water injection. I guess my injector is goobered up, and when I find a shop (Bill Binns?) that can set the pop pressure, I'll take the new and old ones in. And the ring tone is not the same as the flywheel-wrench test.
So far, I've only scraped carbon off with my fingernail. Any solvent to be run through injector to clean it's internals ? I suppose the shop knows how to tweak them?
In the IDI heads, is there enough space to get a borescope down the injector and look at the chamber, or is the cavity too small ? I'm thinking of the harbor freight borescope/LCD viewer .
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Biodiesel is the best cleaner to run through your pump and injector.
dieselgman
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I agree- but veggie oil works great for cleaning injector parts, too. 24 hrs and all the carbon/varnish softens up comes right off. I rebuilt my MB 300D injectors, matching pop pressures with a homebuilt grease gun pop tester. The only trouble was that a year later all the grease gun seals are shot, since I used veggie oil for pop testing, too.
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I now have 2 blessed injectors. One was the original, beautiful spray, and the spare, was a couple hundred PSI higher and the tech said it will drop quickly with some break-in and his opinion was not to mess with it. He though that pump timing was something to look as, as he thinks the injectors are golden.
I cleaned the carbon crud off the injector, purged the hydraulic test fluid out, and stated it up. (Tech said to purge the hydraulic fluid as it's bad for engine, but I know some folks have run/mixed it for long times)
If nothing else, I can now prime a fuel system and have it fire on the first effort.
I did look down the injector port and just saw blackness.
I may have to drill my intake for a water nozzle, since that seems to be keeping the clank at bay.
So, for now, it's the hand sprayer, and wait for the engine build thread to cover pump timing.
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I wonder what Lister in the UK specified as the time in hours of use before a decoke is needed. 100 hours seems to be a short time and I cannot imagine the UK company admitting to it
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Haven't got the book near at present but I seem to recall the Lister 8/1 and VA (aircooled 8/1) were recommended for a 1000 hour maintenance interval when such tasks as decoke, check valves, lap if needed, set clearance, check injector spray pattern, wash out crankcase, were listed for attention.
On the other hand, many old Listers on station bores etc. would have had an oil change annually, and no other attention unless they actually refused to start, Surprisingly, many of these saw up to 40,000 hours with only an injector service and valve grind or two, and maybe a ring set if they were in dust.
Combustor.
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+1 on the 1,000 hour decarb service...
From the Lister manual:
ENGINE SHOULD NOT BE RUN MORE THAN 1,000 HOURS WITHOUT DECARBONISING.
dieselgman
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Are there any sources for the copper Injector Seal washer ? Any crossover # to Cat or any other diesels ? I've mucked up mine, will consume the one spare in the morning, but want to have an extra on hand. McMasterCarr has some that could be filed down, but nothing drop-in.
Engine started fine this AM, but at shutdown, it was blowing gunk out the injector hole. Everything was down tight, so I either have a flake of something in the seal, or got a ding in the washer.
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The injector washers are included in our gasket sets, also could be sourced from generic auto parts suppliers I believe.
I also heard that Harbor Freight had some inexpensive copper washer kits that had some to fit.
If your injector port (and seat) is clean, you might reclaim an old copper washer by careful cleaning and annealing (moderate heating) to soften it up for re-use.
dieselgman
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Mike, It's been a while since I had to use one but there is a washer in the HF copper washer assortment that either is a drop in fit or just needs the center hole adjusted.
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Some newbies might not realize that copper is the opposite of steel- you soften work-hardened copper by heating it and then quenching it fast in water. This is why soldered connections to copper are sometimes problematic- it will harden the wire near the connector, making more likely to break from vibration.
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Thanks for that Bruce! I forgot to mention the quenching part of the annealing process! My bad! :embarassed:
dieselgman