# Lister Engine Forum

## Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Gippslander on January 16, 2015, 10:32:17 AM

Title: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 16, 2015, 10:32:17 AM
Hi

I thought I would start a new thead as I began to tear down my Jkson today . Firstly , the gib keys just fell out with almost nil effort from the puller . The keys were just sitting there doing nothing  ???

Anyway , the flywheels came of very easily . I measured the shafts and there is a .001" difference in the two sides  ??? One side is 1.9995" the other side is 1.9985" . Indian standards maybe  >:(

I noticed that the gib keyways in the shafts are roughly machined   :-[  Hmmm  I will need to clean these keyways up

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: LowGear on January 16, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
As a shade tree mechanic:

Quote
Anyway , the flywheels came of very easily . I measured the shafts and there is a .001" difference in the two sides  Huh One side is 1.9995" the other side is 1.9985" . Indian standards maybe  Angry

Sound pretty darn good to me - how come the unhappy face?

Casey
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on January 16, 2015, 09:26:17 PM
Catastrophic disassembley.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 17, 2015, 07:48:06 AM
The piston has suffered from water damage ?  The rings are stuck in the grooves, this is a new engine  ::)

I noticed the small end bush in the connecting rod is slightly loose on the wrist pin. Is that normal for these engines ?

The crud on the top of the piston appears to be paint  ???

Next thing is the camshaft removal . Do I have to remove the tappet guides and tappets  first ?

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid_zps587f60c2.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid2_zps8c3801db.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid4_zps7ee8a962.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid5_zps6f389cb7.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on January 17, 2015, 05:45:26 PM
Looks like a head gasket leaked and allowed water into cylinder... could also have come through one of your ports. Take a look at valve seats for rust there. Check to see that your head and cylinder deck is flat.
We much prefer the wrist-pin bush to be snug except for a very slight oil clearance... loose bushing equals noisy piston slap and extra wear and tear.

Tappets out of the way first will make working with camshaft easier.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 18, 2015, 07:22:54 AM
Looks like a head gasket leaked and allowed water into cylinder... could also have come through one of your ports. Take a look at valve seats for rust there. Check to see that your head and cylinder deck is flat.
We much prefer the wrist-pin bush to be snug except for a very slight oil clearance... loose bushing equals noisy piston slap and extra wear and tear.

Tappets out of the way first will make working with camshaft easier.

dieselgman

Ok thanks . I did notice some small bits of dirt under the head gasket , whoever assembled this engine didn't care about it ?

Anyway , the camshaft is out .

But I cannot seem to remove the crankshaft , the bronze idler gear is in the way .  How does the idler gear shaft come out ?

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid6_zpsda38d202.jpg)

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: broncodriver99 on January 18, 2015, 08:00:22 AM
Remove the upper nut in the bearing housing on that side. That bolt is the journal for the idler. Tap it into the crankcase and the idler should come out with it.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 18, 2015, 09:22:45 AM
Remove the upper nut in the bearing housing on that side. That bolt is the journal for the idler. Tap it into the crankcase and the idler should come out with it.

Just got it out  ;D  thanks
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 18, 2015, 04:53:29 PM
Gippslander
Re: the idler gear bolt. In your photo, the bolt is installed at an angle. When reinstalling, the groove in the bolt bearing surface should face up, it is an oil passage, catches splash to lube the idler gear.
When I tore down my (then new) JKSON, it was in much better condition than the one you got........just goes to illustrate the point that each engine is different, and a tear-down is really essential. My Gib keys were also lightly installed, though I was cautioned that loose keys were requested by the importer to facilitate dis-assembly. I had a lot of slop in one of the keyways that required shimming on reassembly.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 19, 2015, 08:24:34 AM
Gippslander
Re: the idler gear bolt. In your photo, the bolt is installed at an angle. When reinstalling, the groove in the bolt bearing surface should face up, it is an oil passage, catches splash to lube the idler gear.
When I tore down my (then new) JKSON, it was in much better condition than the one you got........just goes to illustrate the point that each engine is different, and a tear-down is really essential. My Gib keys were also lightly installed, though I was cautioned that loose keys were requested by the importer to facilitate dis-assembly. I had a lot of slop in one of the keyways that required shimming on reassembly.
Cheers,
Hugh

Very good .

Apart from the rusty piston, the rest of the Jkson engine is OK .
The crankcase appears to be one they did make correctly, I cannot find any sand so far but I will do a closer inspection tomorrow . I was going to clean out the crankcase today but I've had ride on mower trouble .

The Indian gaskets appear to be of average quality , to my eyes anyway . Has anyone had any problems with leaking Indian gaskets ?  I plan on using Permatex No 3 sealant on all of the gaskets during reassembly .

My mower engine died yesterday , its  a Briggs and scrap iron ( oops I mean stratton  :embarassed:  12HP engine side valve , I pulled it down today, it has bad valve recession , the valve seats are beyond repair . Its been running on unleaded petrol .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on January 19, 2015, 01:38:36 PM

The crankcase appears to be one they did make correctly, I cannot find any sand so far but I will do a closer inspection tomorrow . I was going to clean out the crankcase today but I've had ride on mower trouble .

The Indian gaskets appear to be of average quality , to my eyes anyway . Has anyone had any problems with leaking Indian gaskets ?  I plan on using Permatex No 3 sealant on all of the gaskets during reassembly .

My mower engine died yesterday , its  a Briggs and scrap iron ( oops I mean stratton  :embarassed:  12HP engine side valve , I pulled it down today, it has bad valve recession , the valve seats are beyond repair . Its been running on unleaded petrol .

Run your fingers through the oily residue left on bottom of the crankscase and/or upper shelf and if you dont find many little hard objects Ill buy the coffee next time. ;)

Although my experience is limited to around 20 various Indian engines through the shop I have yet to experience one that had the cores properly knocked out and cleaned. That being said my hopes are always high because they get the easy to see areas thus at first glance they all look pretty decent. I plan to cover this in my up coming build but here are some places to poke around for sand and dont be afraid to to some serious poking, hammer and punch or heavy screwdrivers, needle scalers are the cats meow. I would shot peen if I had that capability in the shop.
A- The lower sump under the 2 bolt oil fill/level cover
B-  The "shelf" below the camshaft
C- Around the openings for the main bearings especially on top
D -Any webbings in the block.
Check all of these places from every angle available, each opening. I have seen that white colored coating previously and it is close to worthless. I recommend that you remove it and recoat even if you have one of the rare no sand units, Oven cleaner works OK for this and you rinse it out with a hose.

Indian gasket quality varies from dang decent to pure garbage, If the head gasket has major defects (dents) from sand it should be replaced. Also check it carefully to see if it is copper or copper washed aluminum, if aluminum chunk it in the trash.  If the liner protrusion is correct and the head is flat the very best head gaskets come from John at Gaskets to Go. If protrusion is too high(likely) and you don't do anything to correct it or the head then the thick sandwich type indian gasket will weep less coolant.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 20, 2015, 08:32:04 AM
Run your fingers through the oily residue left on bottom of the crankscase and/or upper shelf and if you dont find many little hard objects Ill buy the coffee next time. ;)

Although my experience is limited to around 20 various Indian engines through the shop I have yet to experience one that had the cores properly knocked out and cleaned. That being said my hopes are always high because they get the easy to see areas thus at first glance they all look pretty decent. I plan to cover this in my up coming build but here are some places to poke around for sand and dont be afraid to to some serious poking, hammer and punch or heavy screwdrivers, needle scalers are the cats meow. I would shot peen if I had that capability in the shop.
A- The lower sump under the 2 bolt oil fill/level cover
B-  The "shelf" below the camshaft
C- Around the openings for the main bearings especially on top
D -Any webbings in the block.
Check all of these places from every angle available, each opening. I have seen that white colored coating previously and it is close to worthless. I recommend that you remove it and recoat even if you have one of the rare no sand units, Oven cleaner works OK for this and you rinse it out with a hose.

Indian gasket quality varies from dang decent to pure garbage, If the head gasket has major defects (dents) from sand it should be replaced. Also check it carefully to see if it is copper or copper washed aluminum, if aluminum chunk it in the trash.  If the liner protrusion is correct and the head is flat the very best head gaskets come from John at Gaskets to Go. If protrusion is too high(likely) and you don't do anything to correct it or the head then the thick sandwich type indian gasket will weep less coolant.
[/quote]

That is good advice

Spent today poking around the inside , only found two very small pockets of sand . I used a sharp poker and scraped around all the corners . I used a small LED torch and closely inspected all the corners and hollows . I then pressure washed it out . Seems to be OK . I can use a hot caustic bath and dip the whole thing for a few hours , don't know if it is  worth it .

Has anybody painted the inside with special paint ? Would it be a good idea ?

The outside has a coat of bog over the casting , I think you call it bondo . I think I will leave it .

One thing I don't like. The tappet guides are a loose fit in the crankcase , they came out easily with a simple tug , after the paint had broken away . Appears to be around .002" between the guides and the crankcase . I may have to use loctite on the guides to hold them in .

Oh yes . I found a primitive oil filter, a wire mesh cage in the lower oil sump . I would like to remove it but it seems to be held by a welded plug . Any ideas ?  Thanks
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on January 20, 2015, 10:46:18 AM
We use an epoxy coating on the interiors... it just gives a good slick surface to aid in cleaning and is recommended. Powder-coat enamel (baked on) might be even better, but simple epoxy is very cost effective and easy. Starting with a perfectly clean surface is important, but difficult unless you do give the casting a good hot caustic bath. This will also remove the exterior body filler putty they use right quickly.

The Indians sometimes build with very rough castings... but not every one is bad enough to require the body filler. I think that supposed "finishing touch" may be considered standard practice but not required in every case. The British made castings, on the other hand, are perfectly smooth and flawless because of their stringent quality control practices. The Indians could likely do the same thing, but would cost them a little more to produce a perfect casting and only export the best ones. Backyard foundries cannot compete with a controlled factory environment. It might be helpful and educational for a native speaker to follow and document that practice as well as showing how the family and business networks really operate in India. It is quite a different environment from what we utilize in the Western world.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 20, 2015, 11:19:33 AM
We use an epoxy coating on the interiors... it just gives a good slick surface to aid in cleaning and is recommended. Powder-coat enamel (baked on) might be even better, but simple epoxy is very cost effective and easy. Starting with a perfectly clean surface is important, but difficult unless you do give the casting a good hot caustic bath. This will also remove the exterior body filler putty they use right quickly.

The Indians sometimes build with very rough castings... but not every one is bad enough to require the body filler. I think that supposed "finishing touch" may be considered standard practice but not required in every case. The British made castings, on the other hand, are perfectly smooth and flawless because of their stringent quality control practices. The Indians could likely do the same thing, but would cost them a little more to produce a perfect casting and only export the best ones. Backyard foundries cannot compete with a controlled factory environment. It might be helpful and educational for a native speaker to follow and document that practice as well as showing how the family and business networks really operate in India. It is quite a different environment from what we utilize in the Western world.

dieselgman

Ok that is interesting .

My old 1950 land rover engine  has a coating on the inside of the engine block  . Apparently it was for the same reasons we are worried about , to minimise any problems from stray casting sand .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid7_zps968b8a10.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid8_zpsaba26e2a.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on January 20, 2015, 12:49:07 PM
Again this was to be part of the build thread but since your into one and the subject is at hand,,

Interior casting paint, the reason for it and how the Indians (as usual) screw it up

The Indians slop on a coat of paint in an effort to cover up improper cleaning of the castings. Over time as the  coating flakes off over areas of loose sand and grit it releases them into the engine doing grave damage. ( this is why you should hot tank your engine!)
Realising that this is going on some have asked for uncoated castings and proudly advertise it as problem fixed  Sorry to say they they dont understand the entire picture. Their  logic here is no different than saying a band aide is always a bad idea because when applied over a hemorrhage it did nothing and the patient died. Thus when you cut a finger do not use one! as a matter of fact throw them away.  ??? Another analogy would be your car is dirty but washing it is difficult so you spray a coat of paint on it. It looks better than dirt from a distance but two week later it starts to peel off. so you announce that painting car will always make it look worse than leaving it alone even if it is bare metal. ???

Coating the castings is great,, when properly done , with proper materials, over a properly prepared casting. In a perfect world it would not be needed. But in our imperfect world it is used to insure that no stray sand makes it ways into the workings inside of a casting. In the REAL imperfect world of Indian castings there is no way we can remove 100% of the sand and grit from a rough interiors of an Indian crankcase casting. What we can do is remove all that comes off with some effort put into it and then seal in the rest permanently with a properly applied coating made for the job.  I will not build an Indian engine any other way than  hot tanked, chipped out and painted. Nothing wrong with Epoxy for this but Gyptol, is/was the standard casting coating for 50 years or more and still is a first rate. We use the same product made by another company. Both Gyptol and the product we use from WW Grainger is made to insulate and waterproof electrical windings
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on January 20, 2015, 01:45:56 PM
There are many name brands applied to the coating products that can be properly used on the interiors of the iron blocks... it all boils down to the same thing though. You need a product that will stay in place throughout the temperature ranges and chemical exposures that will exist inside your block and never break down nor decay under all possible operating conditions. The "epoxy" coating I use is also designed specifically for wiring insulation in generator windings... and even more specifically the rotor where severe mechanical stresses and temperature extremes are sometimes experienced.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on January 21, 2015, 12:03:54 AM
Thanks for the timely words on block prep and paint, 38ac, it's much appreciated.

Hot tanking is not possible where I live, but I recall someone doing a nice job with lye in a plastic trash can.

Any suggestions for a specific brand for the block interior, something I can get a small amount of?  Epoxy would be preferred in terms of odor, I think.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Hugh Conway on January 21, 2015, 01:12:43 AM
Thanks for the timely words on block prep and paint, 38ac, it's much appreciated.

Hot tanking is not possible where I live, but I recall someone doing a nice job with lye in a plastic trash can.

Any suggestions for a specific brand for the block interior, something I can get a small amount of?  Epoxy would be preferred in terms of odor, I think.

No hot tank here either, I used a cut-down plastic barrel with water and Tri Sodium phosphate (TSP). Soaked it overnight, really cleaned things up, removed the gunge and stripped the paint too.  Just left bare cast iron, didn't re-coat with anything, though a good purposed coating would look nice in there.
Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on January 21, 2015, 02:05:08 AM
Bruce,
The singles fit nicely in a 55 gallon drum. Cut the top off, set it up on some blocks and build a fire under it, the heat really helps and you dont need nearly as much lye.  Lye can be had on Ebay by it's chemical name (escapes me :-\) Before I had redneck hot tank 2 this is how I did mine.  I bought a jug of lye the size of a antifreeze bottle and used about a 1/3 of it in the drum. Any of you guys considering this please use a face shield and gloves minimum and a apron is really nice too. I also dump a couple bottles of cheap dish soap from the dollar store to help cut the grease and oil so the lye works better and faster.
What I have been using for paint I get from WW Grainger part # 1D276 but it ins't propitiatory made by Spray-on  #EL601 and comes in spray can or brush on. Drys fast and hard, kinda nasty to breath so use outdoors and stay upwind.

(http://www.sprayon.com/images/cans/EL601-A.png)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on January 21, 2015, 02:46:04 AM
Thanks for the tip, 38ac.  I've got a friend who is the paid help on the project, and he can spray the Grainger product.  Drying hard and fast bodes well for lack of odor after the fact.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on January 21, 2015, 06:17:47 AM
Sodium Hydroxide is the chemical name for lye. Heat IS necessary for good action on the castings.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 21, 2015, 08:01:00 AM
If I did hot tank my engine, I would use a plastic garbage bin and caustic soda .  One thing that is worth trying is a electric heating element .  At a garage sale, I bought a 240V water heating element, I think dairy farmers used them years ago for steralizing stuff. Maybe a element out of a domestic hot water tank would work ?

I am thinking of running a small grinder over the internals , this will at least make the surfaces smoother .

The painting. I am worried that the paint will not adhere and it will then contaminate the oil .  I can by epoxy paint here but I dont think it is rated for the temperatures of the listeroid oil etc. I will stick to plain iron Never heard of Glyptol over here but I have seen gear boxes inside painted with a red lead ..Mike

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid9_zpsecee1f9c.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: PaperPatched on January 21, 2015, 11:58:09 AM
When I was in my late teens we would build a fire under a 55 gallon drum full of water and add a box of washing soda (Sodium Carbonate,  Na2CO3) from the supermarket.  We then used a tripod of poles to immerse a V8 engine block and brought it to a full rolling boil. The engine blocks came out a beautiful gray cast iron, looking like they were newly made.  A friend uses a 10-amp battery charger to clean rusty woodworking planes by electrolysis; they come out beautiful.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on January 21, 2015, 08:19:52 PM
I think red insulating electrical varnish is sold under lots of names besides Glyptol.  I found some on Amazon.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on January 22, 2015, 07:27:54 AM
...  I can by epoxy paint here but I dont think it is rated for the temperatures of the listeroid oil etc.....

uh, how hot does your listeroid oil get?   On a 60F day, after a 3 hour run, my crankcase is almost 120F. Just warm.  Most paint would take that I think.     But if you don't get all the oil out of the pores of the metal, the paint may lift right off.
The hottest thing I've found on my engine, is the cap on the exhaust valve stem, that's started to cook the indian paint off.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 22, 2015, 11:28:21 AM
I have noticed my cylinder liner protrudes a tiny bit above the head deck, maybe 010"  Should it be level with the deck ?

And, what is the best method to get it level ?  thanks  Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on January 22, 2015, 01:30:47 PM
I have seen .003" to .005" listed as the liner protrusion spec - not flush. If the thing was flush, it would probably still work but more likely to develop a compression leak at head gasket. If protrusion is too large, then sealing the water jacket openings at head gasket will become more of a challenge. Original Dursleys did not use liners at all. A lathe is a fine tool for the job if you have access to one large enough for the job and a competent operator.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on January 22, 2015, 03:34:29 PM
Pull the liner, check the groove in the cylinder for crud and look for machining flaws that would prevent the liner from fully seating before cutting down the liner.

I fixed my liner by the the cautious hand file and feeler gauge method.  Got it to 0.004 protrusion from over 0.010.  finished the surface of the liner with a disk sander.  Much less nerve wracking to have the machine shop do it, and by hand you must be very, very careful.

Check your cylinder face and head for flatness or you'll be going through head gaskets rapidly.  That can also be corrected by hand, via 80 grit sandpaper on plate glass and a lot of elbow grease.  Much easier to let your local machine shop do it.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: carlb23 on January 22, 2015, 03:43:55 PM
I have my 6/1 apart now and the liner protrusion is .005
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 23, 2015, 07:35:24 AM
Ok thanks all of you . I measured the liner protrusion, it is .008" . Its only .003" above .005" so I will leave it as is. I plan on using a head gasket sealant called blue HYLOMAR , it was developed by Rolls Royce and it is widely used .

Yes I will check the head and deck for flatness

I bought some cypress pine for the base . I think its cypress macrocarpa , which originally was found in California . It has been widely planted over here, mainly  in wind breaks on farms for 100 years or more . Its a very stable wood .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on January 23, 2015, 12:08:27 PM
Because it was torqued down over that much protrusion I can tell you without looking at it that your head is not flat. At the risk of sounding like a smart arsed know it all this is one of those deals where if your only going to go halfway as in not correcting the protrusion than just leave the head  alone as your just wasting time and money if you mill it flat. Excessive liner protrusion (to an extent)  very much helps to seal the highest pressured joint in the gasket, the top of the liner. Problems is its harder to seal the water jacket. The head bends down around the sleeve when you torque it down and with a little goop around the water passages you wont leak any water.  This works OK until you take it down for decoking, then  you need to have a head gasket on hand because the gasket is ruined during disassembly.  If your going to put some hours on it and thus disassembling for decoking   you would be ahead to get that protrusion down to .001-.003 if your using Indian sandwich gaskets or .000-.001 if your using the Gaskets to Go modern type with fire ring. Then you will need no goop and it will come apart without ruining the gasket. The difference in  spec here being you need some squish to hold the liner down tight with the Indian gasket, it is built into John's gaskets via the fire rings. Also if your going to pay someone to correct the protrusion my suggestion is to have a machinist make the correction in the counterbores in the block instead of sleeve. This is because the Indian sleeves are real consistent in my experience and come overhaul time you can drop one in and it will very likely be OK. If you correct the sleeve plan on having to do same to your replacement sleeves come overhaul time.

Just some things to think about
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 23, 2015, 02:01:01 PM
Because it was torqued down over that much protrusion I can tell you without looking at it that your head is not flat. At the risk of sounding like a smart arsed know it all this is one of those deals where if your only going to go halfway as in not correcting the protrusion than just leave the head  alone as your just wasting time and money if you mill it flat. Excessive liner protrusion (to an extent)  very much helps to seal the highest pressured joint in the gasket, the top of the liner. Problems is its harder to seal the water jacket. The head bends down around the sleeve when you torque it down and with a little goop around the water passages you wont leak any water.  This works OK until you take it down for decoking, then  you need to have a head gasket on hand because the gasket is ruined during disassembly.  If your going to put some hours on it and thus disassembling for decoking   you would be ahead to get that protrusion down to .001-.003 if your using Indian sandwich gaskets or .000-.001 if your using the Gaskets to Go modern type with fire ring. Then you will need no goop and it will come apart without ruining the gasket. The difference in  spec here being you need some squish to hold the liner down tight with the Indian gasket, it is built into John's gaskets via the fire rings. Also if your going to pay someone to correct the protrusion my suggestion is to have a machinist make the correction in the counterbores in the block instead of sleeve. This is because the Indian sleeves are real consistent in my experience and come overhaul time you can drop one in and it will very likely be OK. If you correct the sleeve plan on having to do same to your replacement sleeves come overhaul time.
Just some things to think about

Yes I understand your advice. BTW the guy I bought the roid from here , has had some replacement head gaskets made here in Australia , he very kindly gave me one I will take a pic of it tomorrow
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on January 23, 2015, 04:07:06 PM
+1 My early experience exactly matches 38ac's scenario for what happens with excessive liner protrusion.  My head became concave from the liner force, and coolant leaks were a never ending problem.  Fix it now, you'll save yourself a lot of time, , and headaches. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on January 24, 2015, 08:08:05 AM Pics of the head gaskets . The original Jkson I pulled out and the Australian made which looks a bit thin and fragile to me . (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid13_zps83b1991f.jpg) (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid11_zps441f4d10.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on January 29, 2015, 07:49:46 AM I have found a problem. I suspected that my wrist pin is loose in the bush , I did some measuring The wrist pin is 1.2495" The bore of the bush is 1.2545" The wrist pin is loose in the bush , it falls right through the bush . I think I will have to fit a new bush ? Maybe heat up the rod and press out the bush ? (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid12_zpsb9314af3.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on January 29, 2015, 01:39:50 PM Lister technical data shows .0045 as the maximum allowable clearance for the wrsit pin. I never could find a new fit spec so I hone the bushing until the pin is a slip fit. You dont have to heat the small end to remove the bushing or install it but you do need an appropriate driver. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on January 29, 2015, 03:44:45 PM A quick seat-of-the-pants method is with the use of your hands and eyes... any perceptible rock in that pin generally indicates excess wear (or slop) in the bushing. A slip fit means the pin easily slides back and forth without perceptible drag when fitted dry. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on January 30, 2015, 07:47:01 AM This is a new unused engine I have and the wrist pin should not have that much of a gap in the bush . Just goes to show how the Indian tolerances are less than we should expect them to be . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Hugh Conway on January 30, 2015, 05:49:25 PM This is a new unused engine I have and the wrist pin should not have that much of a gap in the bush . Just goes to show how the Indian tolerances are less than we should expect them to be . I recently bought a new (Indian) wrist pin for my 6/1. same problem. Bush measures well within tolerance, wrist pin is undersized. Cheers, Hugh Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on January 30, 2015, 05:59:30 PM Our experience with them is that the bushings must be re-sized to properly fit with the pins. Use of a hand-powered precision reamer is adequate in most cases. If done in a machine shop, then an alignment jig may be employed to guarantee a straight and true bore. It would appear that many of the Indian parts are considerably less precise than one would hope for and expect. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: carlb23 on January 30, 2015, 09:07:32 PM After reading this regarding the wrist pin play on your engine I checked mine since i have my engine apart. My was at .003 clearance. I don't expect to be re-assembling my engine for a few more months when the weather in Southern New Jersey is a little warmer. Carl. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on January 31, 2015, 09:24:24 AM George utterpower's CD , he recommends that the crankshaft journal should be polished . I had a look at my crank journal with a X 60 loupe and it does need a polish . Emery cloth is what most people use ? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on January 31, 2015, 12:38:21 PM I have seen some of the shafts that were left pretty rough and needed a 400 grit polishing. Most would do well with 600 grit. We spin ours in a lathe and use 1 1/2" wide cloth rolls to effect the polishing. They can be buffed up to a mirror finish without too much time and effort. A machine shop setup uses the lathe plus a holder that spins the cloth roll along with the crank for final polishing. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 03, 2015, 07:39:22 AM Been doing some filing ;) I have to remove the four large studs from the case . What is the best method of doing this ? I have a stihlson wrench but it might damage the studs . (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid14_zps327663dd.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 03, 2015, 08:46:47 AM Best way is with a stud puller attachment to your socket wrench, you can also "double nut" each stud and simply pull with a socket. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 03, 2015, 10:08:09 AM Best way is with a stud puller attachment to your socket wrench, you can also "double nut" each stud and simply pull with a socket. dieselgman Just got the long studs out 5 minutes ago , they came out easily with a sharp pull on the stihlson wrench , some slight jaw marks where the wrench jaws gripped . The studs diameter measure up as .730" , a strange diameter . Are they meant to be 3/4 " . The nuts are a very loose fit on the thread , I dont like that . The thread is 10 TPI (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid15_zps1ef81881.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 04, 2015, 12:48:33 AM filing (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0099_zps9e6af44b.jpg) (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0100_zpsb695dda4.jpg) (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0102_zpsd46b9798.jpg) (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0105_zps44b55675.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 04, 2015, 03:17:39 PM Nicely equipped shop there! ;) Only problem is you have unutilized floor space! Pleanty of room for kid's toys, a dog, wife's honey do things, another engine or two,,, Butch Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 05, 2015, 12:55:33 AM Nicely equipped shop there! ;) Only problem is you have unutilized floor space! Pleanty of room for kid's toys, a dog, wife's honey do things, another engine or two,,, Butch Yes . ;D floor space . All of us never have enough of it . I think I will buy some hex shaped bar and try to make some long 3/4"UNC nuts , slightly undersize . The original head nuts on my roid are a very loose sloppy fit on the stud thread Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 05, 2015, 01:01:32 AM Not all of the Indian hardware is that sloppy... If you have a good hardware supplier nearby, I would think you could easily get the proper fitting hardware for your build - and inexpensively. There has been some discussion about replacing much of the Indian nut and bolt hardware with higher-grade hardened pieces. That is a very easy and inexpensive improvement that almost all of us can take advantage of. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 05, 2015, 01:42:58 AM Be careful how you mix and match. As you are likely aware the thread shape, minor, and major diameters differ between USS and BSW threads. They kinda work in a pinch (except 1/2" which differs in pitch) but I would not mix them on anything critical. I measured the studs in my project engine and they are right on .750 and the nuts fit very well. As we know, never trust anything to be right, check it! ;) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 05, 2015, 01:50:10 AM Thanks The other fix I can try is to make some new 3/4" long studs and re tap the holes in the deck for the new studs with a real good quality 3/4 tap I dont know how the Indians came up with such a weird thread that 'has that much undersize . Yes I think the BSW whitworth threads have a slight angle difference in the thread form but you can get away with it most times . Before doing anything, I will try and find some replacement nuts but I think even new nuts from the hardware shop will be sloppy just like the old ones . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 05, 2015, 02:46:24 AM If you cannot find a good match-up for those threads, it may just be that they were incorrectly cut from your supplier. Order some new proper replacement studs and eliminate the problem altogether. I have seen a lot of sloppy stuff passed off on the assembled Indian Listeroid equipment... much better quality in the individual pieces when purchased alone though. Maybe they are thinking they will not get caught on the stuff the buyer is not able to immediately inspect? ??? If we give them the benefit of a doubt, we would just have to say that they are sometimes unskilled and unaware. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 05, 2015, 03:03:28 AM If we give them the benefit of a doubt, we would just have to say that they are sometimes unskilled and unaware. dieselgman You are too nice, LOL ;D ;D I have this vision of a guy banging out some given part in a dirt floor hut and the ones that are right go in one heap, the ones that are just right enough to work going in another heap and the rejects going out the back door in a scrap bin. But during the night the scrap bins get raided and,,,,,,, I have seen it happen right here in the good ole USA. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: xyzer on February 05, 2015, 05:20:39 PM Be careful how you mix and match. As you are likely aware the thread shape, minor, and major diameters differ between USS and BSW threads. They kinda work in a pinch (except 1/2" which differs in pitch) but I would not mix them on anything critical. http://www.anemo.eu/blog/what-is-the-difference-between-bsfbsw-and-unfunc/ Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Quinnf on February 05, 2015, 05:55:01 PM Not all of the Indian hardware is that sloppy... [snip] I second that. The threaded fittings on my Ashwamegh were very loose, and I replaced all of the ones I could with US fasteners, which fit better. However, the Jkson engine had fittings that were as good as US made. http://www.utterpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Beta-Tester-Part-1-REVISED-01_10_2015-MEDIUM.pdf (http://www.utterpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Beta-Tester-Part-1-REVISED-01_10_2015-MEDIUM.pdf) http://www.utterpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Beta-Test-Part-II-REVISED-01_2015.pdf (http://www.utterpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Beta-Test-Part-II-REVISED-01_2015.pdf) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 05, 2015, 10:34:20 PM My older Metro was OK on studs and nuts, the DES 8/1 engine looks quite good. It's important to enjoy the things that came out well from Rajkot. Every engine is a unique collection! Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 06, 2015, 01:02:12 AM I lifted the case onto its bed, it all fits well :) :) :) :) I need to find some good gasket paper and make some gaskets and fit the crankshaft , its getting harder to find basic things like gasket paper (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0114_zps2e54fa99.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 06, 2015, 07:27:00 AM I have discovered what could be a problem , maybe not The 4 studs that hold the 2 crankshaft bearing castings on each side , are smaller in diameter then the holes in the castings . This means , the casting can move around all over the place . There is no locating pin at all I can see . The studs measure as .470". The holes in the castings are .580" , there is over .100" of space in there ? Am I not seeing something ? (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid16_zps37e34a6b.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 06, 2015, 08:13:27 AM The main bearing castings shold pilot on the crankcase bore. Measure the bore and the pilot on the bearing casting or simply place it on the crankcase by hand and check for movement. Should be a slip fit with very little movement. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 06, 2015, 09:03:56 AM The main bearing castings shold pilot on the crankcase bore. Measure the bore and the pilot on the bearing casting or simply place it on the crankcase by hand and check for movement. Should be a slip fit with very little movement. OK . Yes I just tried what you have suggested . The bearing casting moves up/down about .010" in the bore of the crankcase . I may have to use some steel shims around the circumference of the bearing castings ? Thanks Mike (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid17_zps2b619e2d.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 06, 2015, 01:28:47 PM "010 definitely falls into the iffy category for fit up and there is no easy fix. One of the of the members had to move his crank centerline on one side to correct some shoddy machine work. Maybe he will chime in with what how he coped with the pilot hole. Quickly thinking about it I think I would be more inclined to place about 3 dowels in the casting but I wonder about how loaded they will be and the casting breaking out around them? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 06, 2015, 01:30:47 PM Check measurements of both the case bore and also the housing pilot diameter... I can get you the measurements from good parts. Are both sides giving the same variance? You will have to be very careful about getting your crankshaft parallel with block deck such that piston travel is true inside the cylinder. Our usual method is to replace the offending parts. You should do the same if it is at all practical, rather than trying to shim or modify something that is very far out of spec. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 06, 2015, 11:17:44 PM Check measurements of both the case bore and also the housing pilot diameter... I can get you the measurements from good parts. Are both sides giving the same variance? You will have to be very careful about getting your crankshaft parallel with block deck such that piston travel is true inside the cylinder. Our usual method is to replace the offending parts. You should do the same if it is at all practical, rather than trying to shim or modify something that is very far out of spec. dieselgman that is good advice from 38 and dieselman Would loctite hold the casting in place in the bore ? The other side has .005" of up/down play , it is not as bad as the .010" yes i may have to buy new castings , I can buy them from my supplier . I do have a precision machinists level, maybe I can use it to check the crankshaft for being parallel with the deck Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 06, 2015, 11:59:48 PM Have you put it together enough to know how many side gaskets you will need to set the crank bearing preload and side play ? That thing will jump around like crazy until you "get it all together". Try shooting for the preload and crank centering and you may have a different opinion on the up and down movemnt of the bearing carriers. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 07, 2015, 07:17:40 AM I measured the shoulder on the 2 castings , they both measure as 5.749" The holes in the crankcase measure as 5.760" I will buy a sheet of .005" shim stock and make a 1/4" wide shim to fit around the shoulder of the castings Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: xyzer on February 07, 2015, 02:41:11 PM I measured the shoulder on the 2 castings , they both measure as 5.749" The holes in the crankcase measure as 5.760" I will buy a sheet of .005" shim stock and make a 1/4" wide shim to fit around the shoulder of the castings Mike Mike, You may find it very difficult assembling the shim and casting. The math says it is possible but holding it in place while installing the housing may prove difficult. Final assembly with the crank in place will really make it a challenge! I would assemble it and paper shim the housings for the proper bearing load and check crank to deck alignment. You might use the extra clearance to your advantage in improving the alignment. Loctite makes a bearing bedding product you could use to provide some repeatability on assembly. A release agent may be required. Good Luck! Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 07, 2015, 02:53:00 PM Mike, How will you hold the shim stock in place ?? Read my post above. You will have those bearing holders on and off several times setting bearing preload and crank side to side setting to center the crank One of my engines has sleeve bearings. When I tightened the bearing carriers to torque specs the crank had a "tight spot" on one end. I had to play with the torque on the bolts to get the crank to rotate where I was happy with the "feel" while turning by hand. Different thing but it gives you an idea of how "things change". On your engine I would set the crank, play with end play then try to determine if it was level with the top of the block. If the crank is not level you may try to loosen the bearing carrier a little, tap the carrier to the correct spot and retighten the carrier...... On yo Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 07, 2015, 02:55:29 PM Sorry... on your engine I would try this approach. May save some time and headaches. .... Just my 2 cents... Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 07, 2015, 04:51:46 PM I just measured an original main bearing casting and also an Indian copy off our shelf on the pilot diameter - 5.749" for both of them... From that, it would appear that maybe your block was machined a bit too large in this area. I will have to measure up some blocks when I get the chance. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 08, 2015, 08:09:18 AM OK thanks to u all for the input . The problem I have is: the block has been machined with the bores too large ??? I have used shims to fix problems like this before and I feel the .005" shims will work out OK ;D I will post some pics of the fix , but right now I am still looking for gasket paper ::) Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 08, 2015, 02:51:01 PM Mike, I use shipping envelopes, you know the brown or tan ones. They will be different thicknesses. Sometimes note book paper when needing something a little thinner. Give a good wipe/soak with oil and you will be fine. Here again, just my 2cents...... Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 08, 2015, 02:54:16 PM I will add this again. IT WILL ALL CHANGE WHEN YOU BEGIN TO BOLT IT TOGETHER. I would personally forego the "shims" for now. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 09, 2015, 08:21:17 AM I will add this again. IT WILL ALL CHANGE WHEN YOU BEGIN TO BOLT IT TOGETHER. I would personally forego the "shims" for now. Gary Ok Gary , the shipping envelopes. good idea :D I have decided to make new studs . I ran a 3/4" BSW tap through the deck threads, the Indian studs are very loose in the deck threads . The Indian studs are made from a soft mild steel , its crap . I will buy some 3/4 good quaility tensile rod and thread each end of it . Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 09, 2015, 10:06:16 AM I ran taps through the block and a lot of gunk came out (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid18_zpsb499903e.jpg) (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid19_zps800541e8.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 09, 2015, 02:51:04 PM Mike, Don't forget some sealant when you install the new studs. They have been known to leak coolant into the crankcase ! Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: mike90045 on February 09, 2015, 03:13:16 PM Quote ...I have decided to make new studs . I ran a 3/4" BSW tap through the deck threads, the Indian studs are very loose in the deck threads . The Indian studs are made from a soft mild steel , its crap . I will buy some 3/4 good quaility tensile rod and thread each end of it . Mike I was wondering, are the head bolts/studs a super strong steel, that springs back after torque, or are they one shot, and nobody replaces them? Replace after 3 head gaskets? Never ? And in this case, will chased threads in cast iron hold up to fresh studs? (I've not been that deep, maybe there's 2" of thread in there)? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 09, 2015, 03:27:53 PM Those studs are manufactured of mild steel and have a certain amount of stretch designed in. I have never seen them break... generally will corrode away first from water damage. Replace them if pitted or excessively rusted for sure. On the newer air-cooled models (with much smaller diameter studs), Lister recommends replacement at overhaul time... but again, not something I have ever seen fail. As far as cast-iron threads are concerned, if in good condition - clean and complete, then no issues. The cast iron will hold threads quite well for a lifetime and only need to be cleaned or chased at rebuild time as you have mentioned. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 11, 2015, 01:31:51 AM A friend of mine was running a Chinese generator set one night . At about 3 am it stopped , he walked down to it to find the head had blown off it , the studs had broken ??? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 11, 2015, 01:34:37 AM hour meters Do any of you guys fit a hour meter to your listeroid ? If so how is it done with a diesel ? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 11, 2015, 01:45:00 AM 110vac meter connected with your generator head is an easy way to log all hours while generating power. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: mike90045 on February 11, 2015, 04:21:49 AM hour meters Do any of you guys fit a hour meter to your listeroid ? If so how is it done with a diesel ? I manually log, my inverter counts the generator hours Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 11, 2015, 08:08:59 AM 110vac meter connected with your generator head is an easy way to log all hours while generating power. dieselgman Ah yes of course . Over here its 240 Volts but will work fine with the correct meter Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 11, 2015, 08:15:01 AM Oh, yes... of course your local voltage will be pertinent, (frequency as well)! I think that the most common AC hour meters will work properly at 240vac. They will be specified and labeled with the proper voltage range as well as frequency range. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 11, 2015, 03:00:04 PM There are some self- lithium battery powered vibration sensing meters that can be mounted to the fuel tank frame or elsewhere. They are a mixed bag but none are very durable. I think 4 years is the longest I had one working. One failed in few month. One stopped keeping time properly after just a few days. Engine vibration is not good for electronics. I switched to a 12v unit last year that counts time whenever my engine controller is switched on. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Hugh Conway on February 11, 2015, 09:40:25 PM Counting hours? I use a log book to record that, along with oil change and other maintenance info. There is a clock in the shop, so ..... Paper and pencil.....low tech. Cheers, Hugh Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 12, 2015, 09:17:45 AM Well the .005 shim steel arrived and I tried it out . It works great :) I used a 1.5mm gasket as a initial setup , and then I wrapped the shim steel around the casting, it all slid into the bore hole easily . The sloppy .010" up/down movement of the casting has disappeared . I now will install the crankshaft for a test fitting . My plan is to begin by fitting the opposite bearing casting with no gaskets , I will tighten the nuts just enough to get the preload , then I will measure the gap between the casting and the block with feeler gauges, this should give me an idea of how many gaskets I need . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 12, 2015, 12:57:43 PM Mike, I am still wondering how you will hold the shim stock in place ??? I must be missing something here..... Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 13, 2015, 12:39:19 AM Mike, I am still wondering how you will hold the shim stock in place ??? I must be missing something here..... Gary hi Gary The shim is sandwiched between the bore hole and the casting . I did use permatex sealant , the permatex should help hold the shim . (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0132_zps0a5a12e0.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 13, 2015, 07:23:11 AM Well I have the crank in the block, without gaskets. I measured the gaps and I am getting about a equal 1.5mm gap each side . My plan is to make up two metal gaskets 1mm thick, then use paper gaskets to adjust the last pre load adjustment I just dont like paper gaskets that thick with TRB's . With the plain bearings , I think all paper is fine (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid20_zps4ffed97a.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 13, 2015, 02:21:30 PM When die cut out of the proper stock paper shims will stack that deep and work well. When not precise or made from the wrong type paper you will run into spongy assembly that you rightly do not wish to have. SInce you are making the them by hand you are probably making the right move with the steel shim. The only thing that could be a minus is if you wish to shift the shaft to align the timing gears later on your options will be somewhat limited. Have to admit that I wonder about your shimming the housings in the bores but don't take that as condemnation, just never seen it done that way. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 15, 2015, 07:47:09 AM Hi Well I found some 1.5mm steel , cant find any 1mm. So 1.5 it is If the 1.5mm steel gaskets are too wide eg, not enough pre load, I will have to use a sheet of glass and sandpaper and carefully shine the steel til its just right Here I am boring the 1.5mm sheet out to 5.760" . (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid21_zpsb6aa2ca4.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 16, 2015, 07:11:11 AM Today I bought some plastigauge and measured the big end clearance . I removed the two shims under each side of the cap as I feel they are not needed . The plastigauge says I have a .002" clearance without any shims . Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 16, 2015, 12:48:36 PM ???? I measured crank end play with a dial indicator. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 17, 2015, 02:11:50 AM Good Gary I have made the steel gaskets, fit is very good . Maybe a tiny bit more pre load is needed, I will shave 1/2 thou from the gaskets and that should be it will post pics tonight Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 17, 2015, 02:30:48 AM Mike, I went back and reviewed the pics and text and now I see how you were doing it. You could bolt one bearing housing in place and split the difference with your measurement. Same thing only different ! I like the way you made the metal spacers. Took care of the housing "slop". Good thinking ! Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 17, 2015, 03:51:10 AM You guys are clever, practical and inventive! I think good words are self-reliant and self-sufficient! As things get worse in the world around us, these traits and skills are the ones I would hope to find in people around me! ;) Good work! dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 17, 2015, 11:17:48 AM One of the steel gaskets (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid22_zps68010908.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 17, 2015, 12:15:39 PM I agree with Gary, top notch shim making, it isnt an easy thing to do at home! Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 18, 2015, 09:10:24 AM I am getting.002" runout at this point of the camshaft (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid23_zpsd4b1e0aa.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 18, 2015, 03:11:28 PM Mike, Just give it a good wack with a hammer ! Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 18, 2015, 04:37:10 PM I would move to past the other cam, closer to the center of the shaft. A bit tricky to avoid the governor weights but I was able to do it without removing them. I was a bit shocked at how much force was required to move the shaft. I was able to support the shaft on my hardwood V blocks for straightening, a plus for hardwood. Good luck and much patience! Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 21, 2015, 07:13:27 AM Hi Well another Indian error has surfaced, it bit me on the bum The camshaft is .874" in Diameter - the bushing in the block is bored to .883" The camshaft is a sloppy fit in the bush - see pic Can I remove the steel bush and make a new bronze bush ? Mike (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid24_zps4cf09ca5.jpg) And , the valve lifer guides have holes in them . Which way do the holes go in ? (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid25_zps38c69140.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on February 21, 2015, 10:18:31 AM Replacing the bushing is most likely the easy fix for the sloppy camshaft bore. That bush will knock out of the block easily. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 21, 2015, 02:21:42 PM Mike, I wondered and asked about the holes in the lifter guides as well. I never got an answer. Logic would say to face them toward the crank so the splash would enter the holes....... Many here have turned the guide to aid with getting the lifter to spin. I did this myself. ( I still ended up faceing my lifters) So my answer to that would be it makes no difference. There is so much splash they will get lubricated no matter what. I always oil the lifter from the top before and during running so I think I'm safe. Yep, just machine a new bearing for the cam. Should be no problem for you. I'll amble off now, Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: George A on February 21, 2015, 05:16:00 PM My first thought when I saw the pic was that the holes were intended as drains.......to allow surplus oil back into the crankcase. As 32 coupe mentioned, every stroke of that lifter is going to coat the lifter with splashed oil and lube its bore. Almost every splash lubrication engine I've ever worked on MIGHT have oil access holes, but on TOP of the fitting. Even with splash, oil doesn't "splash uphill" too easily. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 22, 2015, 07:52:15 AM Ok re: the holes in the guides . Ok it seems that its not that important which way they go in . I have looked at the lifter faces , the finish on them is pretty good, with a slight convex curve I found a piece of cast iron for the new bush . I am a average machinist, taught myself mostly . I will bore the bush to .870", then after installing the bush in the block, I will use a reamer to get it to .875" The 1950's PREMO lathe was made here . It had a broken back gear when I got it, and I managed to make a new gear for it The 3/4" drill in the pic, the chuck is turning slowly with the back gear engaged .. Mike (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid26_zpsab81ae39.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 23, 2015, 11:06:56 AM Well, the new end bush has been fitted . The camshaft now has .001" clearance instead of the sloppy .010" Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 25, 2015, 08:38:39 AM I am wondering if the reason for so many broken idler gears is , the camshaft bushes are worn or as in my case , are badly out of specification . Mike PS just done a test fitting of the idler gear . The gear has a wobble , the shaft diameter is too small or the hole diameter in the gear is too big ::) Also, the idle gear is not meshing with the crank gear as it should , too much backlash . The cam gear side seems to be meshing OK Looks like I will be making a new shaft . I will have to buy some 4140 grade steel . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 25, 2015, 12:34:32 PM . I really do not consider myself to be in the same league as some of the guys who laid down the ground work on these engines but I do have the advantage of being able to look backwards at what they went through and analyzing the thought processes, some good, some flawed. I also have the advantage of being through quite a few of these engines, both the originals and the Indian versions and gear problems are not unique to the Indian engines. That knowledge would have helped some of the guys early on who thought that any gear problems were caused by India. Taking everything into consideration, what I can read here in the archives and what I have experienced in my shop has brought me to the opinion that the major factor is backlash, not the gears. I am not the pioneer with that thought but I do subscribe to it. I have seen test run and very low houred engines with "the red gears" "the green gears" and bronze gears all beat to pieces. And in every case the common denominator was improper positioning of the idler which makes for increased backlash. If a person reads all of Georges ramblings on this subject he will see that he knew that the bronze gear was more of a crutch than the fix. If he addressed backlash I don't recall reading it. In reading through old posts it is readily apparent that most did not fully understand the impact of a little bit of extra gear lash. Just the same as a lot of users did not (and still dont) understand the impact of a "little bit" of sand and slag floating around. The beating the gears take is GREATLY magnified by a small amount of extra backlash. The difference in gear speeds at the time of impact is tremendous with only a .010 increase in back lash. It would take an engineer to calculate the exact forces involved but they are great. A person just has to get past any thinking that fixing excessive gear lash comes behind worrying about the gear materials. In my build thread I summed this all up by saying, inspect the gears, throw out any that are obviously bad and get the lash right. If an engine has been run, even just test run with grossly excessive gear lash the idler gear is junk and sometimes so will the cam gear be junk. A casual look over will not bring this out, look at the gears under a strong light preferably with a magnifier This is what I have experienced with work through my shop. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 25, 2015, 10:50:04 PM Mike, On your idler gear......I made an offset bushing for mine that took care of the lash problem. If you look at my earlier posts you will see pics of how I did it. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 26, 2015, 01:19:03 AM Mike, On your idler gear......I made an offset bushing for mine that took care of the lash problem. If you look at my earlier posts you will see pics of how I did it. Gary Ok good advice and thanks 38ac I measured the bore of the bronze idler gear - .875" . The diameter of the shaft is .873" , so I can see where the gear wobble is coming from Yes , I will make a new shaft with the eccentric section . That will test out my machining skills ::) I havent machined the harder grade steél as yet. the 4 jaw chuck with a 25 thou shim on one of the jaws sounds good I am fixing up my Harrison lathe with a 2hp motor that should handle the 4140 steel . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Quinnf on February 26, 2015, 01:24:32 AM [snip] If a person reads all of Georges ramblings on this subject he will see that he knew that the bronze gear was more of a crutch than the fix. If he addressed backlash I don't recall reading it. That's right. Since most gears lost teeth opposite the "00" mark that was stamped into the rim, it was thought that impact stress caused localized deformation, which lead to localized weakening. Soon, however, it became apparent that manufacturing inconsistencies made some engines loose teeth like a septuagenarian, while others seemingly ran forever. Joel spent a considerable sum of his own money having the gear profile analyzed, and the recommendation was to try making the idler gear from bronze. Dave, (Xyzer) spent some time and measured a block accurately and turned up the fact that the idler gear shaft was mislocated in relation to the crankshaft and cam, and he was the first person to identify the issue of backlash as the likely cause of gear stripping. I don't recall anyone who installed the offset idler spindles that he made available for a time, having any further problems. The Ashwamegh 6/1 that was my first engine, made a terrible "clack" as the engine cranked over each cam lobe without compression. After making a series of idler spindle bushings drilled offset 0.005 to 0.030", I found that the 0.010 bushing brought the backlash to the point where I couldn't hear the "clack" anymore. I used thickness gauges to measure the backlash, but because of the cramped quarters and difficulty of seeing into the crankcase, I wasn't very comfortable with the precision of my measurement. So I chose the bushing that eliminated the "clack." For the sake of posterity, I'd like to understand how you measured gear backlash. I haven't read anyone describe in detail how they actually measured the lash. Quinn Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 26, 2015, 02:02:42 AM Quinn, Good point. I remember reading about using a dial indicator. I just couldn't see it. I made a few offset bushings and "played" with them untill I got it to were it "felt" correct. Most of us "old timers".have worked with machinery, built.engines of one type or another, built things and blown up and destroyed a few.things along the way. Experience and hands on time is stil the best teacher in my opinion. Gary PS: I turned my offset bushings on my lathe. I turned the bolt center section to 1/2" then used 1/2" ID mild steel tube wih 1/8" wall to create offset bushing. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 26, 2015, 02:38:42 AM In going back over my build thread it is apparent now that I breezed by quite a few things that are of importance. This was mostly out of the fear of coming off like a know it all and partly due to the fact i didn't set out to write a novel. In real life I am actually pretty meek but my ramblings don't come off that way sometimes,, that I am certain of and apologize for. Anyway back to measuring lash. I will take some pictures in a few days but I wanted to answer Quinn's question. Doing it with the cylinder removed is a whole 'nother ball game than trying to do it in an assembled engine which is real hard to do. In the shop I have several different styles of indicators and attaching hardware. I start out the with crankshaft installed and the idler gear installed and by positioning the indicator in the hole for the governor cover it is fairly easy to indicate the backlash between the idler gear and the crank gear. I test it in several places but it usually runs pretty consistent. Next I install the camshaft and cover. The indicator then goes inside the crankcase where I can indicate the total movement of the cam gear. So I end up with two measurements, as an example Idler to crankshaft lash, .016 Total lash at the cam gear .024 The lash between the idler and cam gear is the difference between them or .008 I like to get it down as close as possible without bind which is an absolute no-no. .004 is about as much as I will personalty settle for at each mesh or .008 total. I can only wish that I had paid enough attention in some geometry and math classes to calculate the movement needed. Since I did not I must rely on seat of the pants, aka guessing and making the bolt. I have a jig in mind for this but in all likely hood it will never come to pass. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Quinnf on February 26, 2015, 08:34:03 AM No worries. We're all learning. I spent my working life wearing a lab coat and support stockings in pharmaceutical research, so I'm no professional wrench-turner. I'm glad to learn something new. Gary, I made my offset bushing just like you did. (http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/AllFinished_zps97e994ad.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/quinnf_01/media/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/AllFinished_zps97e994ad.jpg.html) I turned down the idler gear shaft and installed the offset bushing (bronze, in my case) until the noise went away, and called it good. The thing that I don't get about measuring gear backlash in common involute spur gears is that the point of contact between adjacent gear teeth moves along the length of the tooth, and without a meshed pair of gears right in front of me, I'm at a loss to figure out how to measure the backlash. So like Gary, I used my ears and hoped for the best. Gears are deceptively sophisticated machines. Just getting the nomenclature right is a challenge. So I'm all ears. (http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Gear%20Nomenclature_zpswzeplmny.jpg) (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/quinnf_01/media/Gear%20Nomenclature_zpswzeplmny.jpg.html) Quinn Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on February 26, 2015, 11:12:22 AM How do you stop the off -centre bush from rotating around the turned down shaft ? Did you use loctite on it ? Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 26, 2015, 12:56:11 PM Quinn, No, I made mine just like YOU did !! I saw you pics and like the idea and thought I could handle that with my limited machining skills. Mike, I used a drop of locktite when I got it where I wanted it. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on February 26, 2015, 01:40:49 PM Quinn, OK I get your question now. As the contact area moves down the tooth the lash remains the same, when it does not, such as in worn or improperly made gears the gear set is noisy in operation. Not noisy as in the click clack of excess lash but a constant whirring noise. Maybe this link will help, also has suggested lash for various pitches. Note that it says that reversing loads require tighter lash, that is what we are dealing with in the cam drives. In my writings, the lash is measured at a 90 angle to tooth travel. I am not a gear expert so I wasnt trying to hit a number that was calculated from a table, as somebody said, get rid of the clackity clack and you have done right ;D www.engineersedge.com/gears/gear_backlash.htm (http://www.engineersedge.com/gears/gear_backlash.htm) For those curious this picture explains the various planes used in the prior link. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Normal_plane.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Normal_plane.JPG) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 26, 2015, 02:55:33 PM For measuring the gear lash prior to ordering one of Dave's offset idler bolts, I used a method that I think Ronmar suggested- a 3/32" music wire extension against a tooth, leading out of the case and to a dial gauge. It was fussy to set up but worked great. After learning what .004" feels like, I wouldn't use that again. My Metro needed a .055 offset bolt, so you can imagine how sloppy it was. It did not totally eliminate the clack- clack, though. That seems to be caused by the tappets slapping down on the cam. Hotater found it could be eliminated temporarily by adding fine lead shot to the pushrod cups, and Ronmar reported it could be eliminated by adding a light spring to push the tappet downward while there is lash. You can confirm that by pushing lightly downward on the rocker arm opposite the valve. I foolishly thought the clack could be remedied by having less mass in the pushrods so the tappet would follow the cam better and made a pair of carbon fiber tube pushrods. That did nothing, of course. Alas, I have neither the equipment nor skill to make an offset idler bolt, or to turn down the stock bolt for a bushing. I have a lovely XYZer 0.040" offset idler I'd like to trade for an 0.015 to 0.020. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 26, 2015, 11:33:44 PM Bruce, I have a piece of stock that shows ahout 20 thou offset. I have 2 new bolts.( I will have to cut the "block/offset" area to size) I would be happy to finish the 20 offset or see if I can get closer to the 15 you said you need. I could do it this weekend and get it out to you on monday Look at my past posts and you will see pics I posted of a few I have made. They don't look as nice as several I've seen here. But they work fine. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 27, 2015, 12:10:52 AM 20 offset would be perfect, Gary, don't make it smaller. Cash or trade for Dave's 40 offset, either is just fine for me. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 27, 2015, 12:33:49 AM Bruce, Message your address and I'll get it in the mail by monday. No charge. Just post your results here. Several have asked "how do you keep it from turning". This is how I did it. The bolt has a shoulder that rides on.the inside of the block. The sleeve wih the offset is the same or a little thinner than the block. When the crank bearing housing and side gaskets are in place the nut will "hold everything" together. With that said , I do a preliminary "set up". Then remove the bolt and offset and "loctite" the bolt and the offset together. I then reinstall bolt with the offset "glued" to it. The unit will still rotate for final adjustment. I cut a slot in the end of the bolt. I hold this slot with a screwdriver while I tighten the nut with a wrench. Just how I do it. Yout results may vary. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: BruceM on February 27, 2015, 01:10:55 AM Very generous, Gary, thank you! I sent you an email to your forum listed address. Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Quinnf on February 27, 2015, 02:14:57 AM Great discussion! I used a drop of red Locktite to stick the bushing to the shaft. Quinn Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on February 28, 2015, 09:22:57 PM Hey Bruce, Check your email. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on March 09, 2015, 09:13:45 AM hI I have not been doing much on the roid lately I have started to make the new studs , I got some 3/4" 4041 steel The head nut is a nice firm fit on the new stud. Not the sloppy loose fit the original studs have :o I did buy a 55 degree BSW threading bit for this job . (http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/roid27_zpscojrdjxh.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: mike90045 on March 09, 2015, 03:48:42 PM Nice threads. What would it cost "us" if you made a batch of studs, giving "us" a chance to start putting quality parts into our 'roids? Price for a kit of 4 ? Any advantage to BSW for the crankcase end, and SAE on the head end, allowing for graded nuts instead of "whatever these are" ? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on March 09, 2015, 10:34:39 PM One thing to consider... use of mild steel vs something hardened might be preferable in these studs. The reason for this is that the original design actually calls for just a little stretch in the stud to accommodate consistent pressure on the head sealing surfaces and the difference between cold and hot dimensions. Very nice threads! - as it should be! :) dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on March 16, 2015, 07:37:07 AM Hi Well, this lump of 4140 steel is pretty tough and I have been machining it on a small lathe , it has been a long slow job so I have changed over to the old Visby lathe with 3 HP . This is the new idle gear spindle . BTW at a local auction sale yesterday, there was a old Lister model B petrol engine , 3 HP . It sold for about200

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/visby1_zpsmnlb7ttz.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on March 27, 2015, 10:54:03 AM
Hi

Well today I tried a trial fitting of the gib key . I fitted the flywheel . The key ways in the crankshaft are not very smooth , they must have been machined with a blunt milling cutter , so I used a thin diamond file and emery cloth and some lapping compound to smooth things out .  I also smoothed out the gib key surfaces and lapped the gib key into the keyway . I have been using blue marker pens  on the gib key as a guide , like blueing on bearings , but I cannot get a good tight fit for some reason . I think something is not flat or the faces are angled ?

I will see how I go tomorrow

Mike

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on March 31, 2015, 02:59:00 AM
Well, I am having problems

both of the Keyways in the crankshaft and the flywheels have been machined with a angled floor , the vertical sides of the keyways are not equal height .

I have filed the gib key down with a angle across  the top face , this is the only fix I can think of . The difference is around .025" across the top of the key

the Indian machining is very bad , it has many inaccuracies

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on March 31, 2015, 03:06:19 AM
Mike,
I had the same problem. I did as you, used a blue marker pen
and just kept at it until I got a fit I was happy with.

Keep at it, you'll get it !

Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 02, 2015, 09:15:12 AM
Mike,
I had the same problem. I did as you, used a blue marker pen
and just kept at it until I got a fit I was happy with.

Keep at it, you'll get it !

Gary

Ok thanks Gary .  I have filed down both keys and they seem to be OK now .

I pulled the cylinder liner out today, I cannot find any gunk or sand under it .  I have to get the protrusion down to .004" ( it is .008" right now ) . I have a small surface plate and a height gauge and I will carefully use a glass plate and grit paper to file down the cylinder top .

This has been a long road but one of these days I will see this roid running  ;D

The next big job is the flywheel balancing

I checked the valve timing and the inlet valve is within the specifications but the exhaust valve opens about 10 degrees early and closes about ten degrees late
Mike

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 03, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
The weather is nice right now so I had better do some more fixing on this roid before Winter sets in.  :o   I did some work today and I have the cylinder liner protrusion down to .004"  . ;)

I pulled the valves out of the head and the valve guides are  out of specification - by a few thou  , the valve stems are wobbly in the guides , more crap Indian work  :embarassed:  I could make some new guides but not at the moment . Will do that later on .

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on April 03, 2015, 03:17:40 PM
Hi Gippslander,
To correct the exhaust valve timing, sounds like time to employ 38ac's method and just widen the tappet clearance till timing is close. If I understand correctly, as the error is similar on opening and closing, tappet adjustment should bring both events into line. Regards,
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on April 03, 2015, 04:55:43 PM
+1  on increasing the valve lash to correct your timing per 38ac's method.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 03, 2015, 05:04:22 PM
I pulled the valves out of the head and the valve guides are  out of specification - by a few thou  , the valve stems are wobbly in the guides , more crap Indian work  :embarassed:  I could make some new guides but not at the moment . Will do that later on .

That is a common problem on Indian CS Listeriods, also and more annoyingly the Indians also changed the design (increased the outside diameter, as well as other modifications to reduce production costs) of the valve guide so that a genuine Lister valve guide will not fit.

Unfortunately making new guides is your only realistic option, but at least it will give you the option of being able to incorporate a shrouded portion on the end of the exhaust valve guide, as per the original Lister guide, unlike the guides you presently have in the cylinder head.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 03, 2015, 07:25:16 PM
I believe that some of our members have sleeved their existing guides and machined them back to a correct fit.

There are also replacement valve guides built to proper specifications... always best to reference exactly what you have when ordering though.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 04, 2015, 07:11:35 AM
I believe that some of our members have sleeved their existing guides and machined them back to a correct fit.

That is one option. But by the time you have machined to the the required outside diameter the sleeve wall thickness will be little more than a shim.

There are also replacement valve guides built to proper specifications... always best to reference exactly what you have when ordering though.

Do you have a part number, or could you let me know of a supplier, or better still do have any in stock, as I have a immediate requirement for two pairs.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 04, 2015, 09:00:26 AM
Hi Gippslander,
To correct the exhaust valve timing, sounds like time to employ 38ac's method and just widen the tappet clearance till timing is close. If I understand correctly, as the error is similar on opening and closing, tappet adjustment should bring both events into line. Regards,
Combustor.

That is a very good way to get around the problem. I love this forum  :D

re: the valve guides , some of the professional engine rebuilders here use the "K line"  bronze guide liners. I think they ream out the old worn guide and then press in the new bronze liner ?
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 05, 2015, 03:42:42 PM
Quote
Do you have a part number, or could you let me know of a supplier, or better still do have any in stock, as I have a immediate requirement for two pairs.

What are your required dimensions please.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 05, 2015, 07:11:14 PM
^ OK, as a series of photographs here is what I need.

First up is a photo of a Listeriod guide freshly removed from the cylinder head (NOTE! Inlet and exhaust are identical)

http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13689 (http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13689)

Second, here is the Inlet valve guide showing how it needs to differ from a  Lister CS valve guide, where dimensions are not given they will be exactly as per the original Lister Valve guide

http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13695  (http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13695)

Third, here is the Exhaust valve guide showing how it needs to differ from a Lister CS valve guide, where dimensions are not given they will be exactly as per the original Lister Valve guide

http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13698 (http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_itemId=13698)

I require Two inlet and Two exhaust valve guides, let me know your thoughts.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 05, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
It does get a bit complex... so we are NOT trying to match OEM.  You need some modified guides to properly fit a Listeroid clone from India?

I can do some comparisons with our stock and also forward to our suppliers in India.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 05, 2015, 08:38:19 PM
so we are NOT trying to match OEM.

Correct, I have no shortage of original Lister guides, but for reasons only known to them, the Indians increased the valve guide outside diameter slightly, so that it is now not possible to fit original specification Lister guides into Indian cylinder heads.

You need some modified guides to properly fit a Listeroid clone from India?
Not quite, I am experimenting with rebuilding an incomplete CS16-2 with Indian parts where necessary, the original cylinder heads were cracked between the valve seats (as the engine had been through cooled). hence I bought a pair of Indian heads as replacements, but the valve stem clearance was excessive. Hence why I need to replace these guides.
I would normally not entertain using Indian parts, but as an experiment I have used Indian parts wherever possible in its rebuild. I will trial this engine when complete, to see how the Indian parts perform that I will have fitted.

I can do some comparisons with our stock and also forward to our suppliers in India.
Thanks, I will await to hear from you.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 06, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
I am having more problems with my gib keys .  The keyway in both of the flywheels is wider than the keyway in the crankshaft . I can feel a clunk as the loose flywheel rocks onto and off the gib key .  :embarassed:

This is my sneaky plan, with the flywheel sitting on the crankshaft and no gib key installed , I am using some bondo to fill the gap in the  keyways , I am making a casting of the shape the two halves of the keyway make . I will use the casting as a guide to make a new gib key , following the shape of the casting .

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on April 06, 2015, 01:14:19 PM
Mike,
Some guys here have had to shim the sides to make up the difference.
Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: George A on April 06, 2015, 02:47:58 PM
Regarding those valve guides..........if I understand you correctly, the Indian guides are smaller in diameter which would be your first major hurtle. Is there anyplace where you can get them knurled so a good press fit can be achieved?
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 06, 2015, 03:59:01 PM
The valves and guides we stock - Indian clone parts. As in everything else we handle, the specification was given to match OEM parts interchange 100%. Of course, there is often no way of proving this short of ordering and comparing the actual parts. In most cases also doing assembly and testing with them in real service. It has been my experience that most of the complaints and issues come along with Indian reverse engineering that fails to match the original parts specs... there is no way anyone can claim that all Indian parts are bad because they happen to have experienced such issues before. We are happy with our suppliers overall... I hope we are able to remain so. The Indian parts do require an extra level of care and attention to detail during fitting that many old Lister mechanics and most modern engine mechanics are not used to dealing with. It is nice to be able to assemble well-known parts with well-known and reliable specifications, but we are faced with less than ideal circumstances in this day and time.

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13746&g2_serialNumber=1)  (http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13748&g2_serialNumber=1)

valve stem diameter 0.43"
exhaust guide body o.d. 0.74"
exhaust guide overall length 4.29"
exhaust guide machined interface length with head 1.76"
exhaust guide stem counterbore depth 0.58"

inlet guide body o.d. 0.74"
inlet guide overall length 3.48"
inlet guide machined interface length 1.53"

These guides fit the valve stems perfectly

Apparently the heads you have sourced are something off-spec... where did they originate? What supplier? It may be best to go back to that same supplier and complain about the poor fit and off-spec dimensions/designs. They may have the proper replacement parts for their stuff as well. We hope!

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 06, 2015, 04:49:43 PM
Back to your sloppy OEM guides, I believe what is going on with the Indian guides is they are making them "universal" for 7/16 and 11MM stems. All Indian valves I have been around are 11MM which makes for a sloppy fit in a guide sized for OEM 7/16 stems. Easiest/best solution is to knurl the guide and ream for proper fit even if you never use the tooling again. Both the knurls and reamers are on our Ebay all the time for cheap.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 06, 2015, 05:48:30 PM
Our valve stems are 11mm (0.43"), and the guides are sized properly to fit them very well. I think a full 7/16 valve stem would be way too tight without first running a reamer through the guide.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 06, 2015, 09:57:04 PM
Our valve stems are 11mm (0.43"), and the guides are sized properly to fit them very well. I think a full 7/16 valve stem would be way too tight without first running a reamer through the guide.

dieselgman

Could that be due to the order person properly specifying his parts??  ;) ;)

Yes the 7/16 stem valves would be too tight in a 11MM guide, even if the clearance was built into the guide and not the valve diameter, which is another topic in it self,,,
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 07, 2015, 02:54:58 AM
Mike,
Some guys here have had to shim the sides to make up the difference.
Gary

Thanks Gary . The shims might be Ok but I prefer to custom make a gib key . I have a small Mill/drill in my workshop

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 07, 2015, 09:05:20 AM
This is my problem .

I have made the casting from car body filler and it worked out OK . I am planning on using the casting in a tilting vice to set up the angles correctly, then I will use my new gib blank in the vice  and machine it in the mill.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/keywayIndian_zpsh1mau9ug.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: listard-jp2 on April 07, 2015, 11:38:42 AM
Easiest/best solution is to knurl the guide and ream for proper fit even if you never use the tooling again. Both the knurls and reamers are on our Ebay all the time for cheap.

Many thanks for your advice, I will look into buying one of these valve guide kurling tools as a stop gap option.

Apparently the heads you have sourced are something off-spec... where did they originate? What supplier? It may be best to go back to that same supplier and complain about the poor fit and off-spec dimensions/designs. They may have the proper replacement parts for their stuff as well. We hope!

These cylinder heads are of Indian origin, and the brand was IBC. I had thought about the complaining option, but as these items were bought some time ago the window of opportunity has now passed.

I am tempted to try the guide knurling route initially , and then at a later date making some custom valve guides. The cylinder heads were very cheap to buy, and in other respects the casting and machining quality looks quite good.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 07, 2015, 12:07:19 PM
It also crossed my mind that you could easily solve the valve-guide problem by using original valves with 7/16" diameter stems. This assumes that the problem is not so excessive as to be a poor fit on the larger valve stems as well.

Knurling is a common method used across the industry, but is not considered the first choice in terms of retaining the maximum life expectancy of the part involved. I personally like the bronze guide liners as applied to automotive engines but have not had the chance to try using them in an old Lister before.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 10, 2015, 04:35:58 AM
Latest problem is, the floor of the  keyways  are not flat, they have a slight radius or dome shape  . I have made a scraper from an old file, I will scrape the keyways flat with the file .

Spotted this                          http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/tomerong/heavy-farming-agriculture-equipment/diesel-generator-3kw-single-phase-lister-type-engine-/1075615435
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 10, 2015, 07:23:16 PM
Back to valve guides... It seems many (if not all) of the Indian clone heads have omitted the threaded exhaust guide in favor of a pressed-in guide similar to the inlet. Here is what we stock in that variation of the valve guides.

Exhaust on left, Inlet on right. Note that these do come with proper counterbore to shield the exhaust valve stem. They are properly fitted for 11mm (or 0.43") valve stems. Outside body diameter is slightly larger than OEM guides.

(http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13833&g2_serialNumber=1) (http://mbryner.fatcow.com/listerenginegallery/main.php/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=13835&g2_serialNumber=1)

valve stem diameter 0.43"
exhaust guide body o.d. 0.75"
exhaust guide overall length 3.45"
exhaust guide machined interface length with head 1.90"
exhaust guide stem counterbore depth 0.50"

inlet guide body o.d. 0.75"
inlet guide overall length 3.11"
inlet guide machined interface length 1.70"

These guides fit the 11mm valve stems perfectly. Will these fix your problem?

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 11, 2015, 01:30:44 AM
Has anyone used low strength loctite on the gib keys ?

PS  Did some searching and it appears that loctite 660 is what I need .

The positive thing is, with the loctite ,the flywheels will stay firmly in place with little chance of moving .

The negative side is , the flywheels will be very difficult to remove , probably heat will be needed to loosen the loctite .

I have made a new gibe key on the mill, it is longer than the original key and it seems to fit very well .  I need to buy some more square steel stock , I only had enough  for one key .   Mike

I used my little 3 axis tilting vice , the bondo casting is sitting in the vice , this is how I set up the correct angles to mill the blank

So far, I have fixed many problems with this engine. If I had known it was going to be this much work, I probably would not have bought this Indian made engine.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/key1_zpsi9novgxj.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/key2_zpsbpjk6ms1.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on April 13, 2015, 12:36:05 AM
When you get it running it will have been worth it to hear that music !

Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 16, 2015, 10:28:27 AM
Hi

I am still working on the second gib key. The gib keys have turned out to be a real headache for me .

If I was to start over again, I would have a professional workshop re-machine the keyways in the crankshaft and the flywheels . At least then I would have a straight and level keyway to begin with .

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 16, 2015, 02:39:22 PM
Mike,
Your keyway machining problems are pretty typical. I didn't chime in earlier  because you had a very good plan of attack. Previous experience is the keyways are actually pretty close to the correct width and the key itself is the problem being too narrow. One time I had to make a key otherwise keys sourced as parts were wide enough to be properly fitted. When I fit one I first correct the bottom angle first generally using a file. Then fit the top using a spotting agent and file.  All time consuming and likely why the indians "fit" the keys with a very large sledge hammer.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 19, 2015, 09:17:35 AM
I have started on the balancing .

I found a few old chassis stands to use , and these are working out OK .

As you can see, there is a slight mis - balance of this wheel, I marked the TDC points on the rim , following 38ac's method

I will buy some fishing sinkers and melt them down to make some weights .

I used a digital scale I found in a charity shop , the scale says I need to add 140 grams into one of the drilled holes the factory drilled into the counterweight

I can see some daylight at the end of the tunnel  :D  Soon, I will fire up this antique and make some power  ;D

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/bal1_zpse8decndp.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 20, 2015, 09:01:17 AM
Hi

Well I have both wheels lined up with the TDC marks on the wheel rims . I had to add some weight on one wheel ( by filling two of the factory drilled  holes with lead ) and remove weight on the other wheel ( by drilling an extra hole )

I have also done the bucket of weights balance test . One wheel needs 963 grams and the other needs 1153 grams , to get the counterweights even or vertical .

My question is: Where do I add weight to the lighter of the counterweights without upsetting the first check eg the lining up of the rim mark ?

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/bal2_zpsjaub6qfh.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 20, 2015, 01:37:22 PM
Once you have the offset weight in the correct place (your marks are vertical when on the stands) any weight added or subtracted to correct the total offset weight must be done in-line with the marks.

In other words if you drill holes in the light side to add to the offset weight they would be spread out equally either side of the light side mark. If you add strips of lead they would be added  to the heavy side again equally either side of the heavy side mark.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 21, 2015, 01:45:18 AM
Once you have the offset weight in the correct place (your marks are vertical when on the stands) any weight added or subtracted to correct the total offset weight must be done in-line with the marks.

In other words if you drill holes in the light side to add to the offset weight they would be spread out equally either side of the light side mark. If you add strips of lead they would be added  to the heavy side again equally either side of the heavy side mark.

Ok thanks
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 22, 2015, 11:20:10 AM
Ok I have the balancing sorted out. I used construction adhesive and glued the lead weights onto the wheel that needed some weight added to the counterweight .

At last I can now finish assembling the roid and fire it up.

I might give it a short run without coolant , maybe one minute of running will not over heat it .

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on April 22, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
I've been doing load test runs with short pieces of heater hose connected, tied together above the cylinder.  I fill with a hose.  I purge it with new water for a new run.  Perhaps 10 minutes before boiling.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 23, 2015, 11:58:38 AM
Getting closer to the first test run. The engine crane saves my back from destruction  :o lifting the flywheels is no fun

I have discovered that the lever that controls the injector pump rack is sticky , the lever jams as you push the rack in/out .

I have ordered a new fuel filter , a Delphi . I am also doing the Fram paper air filter modification .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/bal3_zpslwsujdun.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 24, 2015, 09:12:49 AM
Hi

I have been looking at the little yoke that fits onto the end of the injector pump rack, the yoke has a round pin machined on its end  ( not the pin that goes through the yoke itself  ), and the pin  is not a good fit in the bore of the control arm, the rack tends to jam because  the free play in the yoke pin behaves like a hinge  .

I may have to make a new yoke , or maybe improve the existing yoke by building up the pin and then machine it back to make it a tighter fit in the bore of the control arm .

As it is, I dont think it would function very well .

I borrowed this pic from docdiesel

PS  just got back from the shed, I fitted a bit of .003 " brass shim around the pin and the effect is excellent , no more jamming . Also fitted a bras washer in the yoke .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/shim_zpsvnc0eu8w.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/main_zpsqzlfk99t.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on April 24, 2015, 02:06:37 PM
Hi Gippslander,
Have been running a similar spring setup on the linkage of my VA (aircooled 8/1) for several years now, and governor control is definitey better, Started with a spring like yours but found it made the yoke pin stiff due to side pressure. A much lighter spring seemed to be OK, as it only has to take up any freeplay. Good luck with the project,
Combustor.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Hugh Conway on April 24, 2015, 05:21:00 PM
@Gippslander
Re your gov linkage photos and mods:

On my JKSON, there was much slop in the yoke as in your photo. I also made a bushing for  the linkage & installed where you have the shim. As your, it worked very well.

In your photo, it appears that the yoke and rack are not parallel. I also had the same situation, which caused binding. The bellcrank can be carefully
bent to provide proper alignment.

Also tried the additional spring between the yoke and bellcrank, but noted no improvement, so deleted it.

Finally, the real secret (for my engine, and a few others, at least) was the governor spring as described in the WOK section of this forum. With all the gov linkage mods except the spring, I was able to get no load- max load Hz difference down to 4Hz. Replacing the oem gov spring resulted in no load-max load Hz difference down to 1Hz. the engine has maintained that small variation in RPM difference for several hundred hours of operation. There is very little RPM over-run or sag on abrupt loading of unloading.....about .5Hz

Cheers,
Hugh
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 25, 2015, 11:57:44 AM

In your photo, it appears that the yoke and rack are not parallel. I also had the same situation, which caused binding. The bellcrank can be carefully
bent to provide proper alignment.

Hugh

Yes thanks for spotting that .

I will be changing the governor spring as it seems to be a worthwhile mod .

On another topic, my flywheels are 23 and 9/16" diam.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 28, 2015, 02:54:37 AM
Can somebody confirm that the threads on the Listeroid Indian fuel  hoses are 1/2"UNF  , the threaded ends that thread into the Indian  fuel filter ?

The Indian fuel hoses are absolute rubbish, they leak all over the place .

I am fitting some half decent hoses right now .

PS Is there any trick to priming the injector pump eg removing all of the air ?
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on April 28, 2015, 11:38:39 AM
Once you have an air free flow of fuel from the pump bleeder then loosen the pipe nut at the injector a turn or so. Then apply compression lift , look at the pump tappet and find a position where you can rock the flywheel back and forth to give the pump a full stroke. Easier than cranking. When clear fuel spurts from injector nut, tighten and rock again till you hear the injector creak or grunt, and you are good to go.
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselspanner on April 28, 2015, 11:43:36 AM
Hi Gippslander

I've just been up the shed and the threads in the oil cooler I had delivered a couple of weeks back, from the States (tho' they are definitely Indian) are 1/2" UNF

'Course yours might be...............

Cheers Stef
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 28, 2015, 12:42:24 PM
Once you have an air free flow of fuel from the pump bleeder then loosen the pipe nut at the injector a turn or so. Then apply compression lift , look at the pump tappet and find a position where you can rock the flywheel back and forth to give the pump a full stroke. Easier than cranking. When clear fuel spurts from injector nut, tighten and rock again till you hear the injector creak or grunt, and you are good to go.
Combustor.

Thanks combustor

Where is the pump bleeder ?

My pump seems to be faulty ,  I cannot get it to squirt any fuel out of the top at all ?

I have the pump set up on the bench . As I manually  push the plunger in , fuel squirts out of the inlet hole , not out of the top
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 28, 2015, 12:50:16 PM
When you benched tested did you have the rack open? The pumps send always send a small amount of fuel back the inlet , but more when the rack is closed.
There Is no pump bleeder screw on the Indian pumps.
Also easier than hand cranking is to remove the high pressure line. Turn engine until the pump tappet is down. Then remove the fitting under on top of the pump that retains the delivery valve, there is a spring under it so be sure to catch it. Then lift the delivery valve with your finger and wait for fuel. Once fuel appears hold it down with your finger to save mess. Bubbles like to cling and to knock them loose you tap the pump body, filter and connecting line with something similar to a screwdriver handle. Lift the valve and let trapped air out, repeat until there are no more bubbles. Reassemble retainer and high pressure line at pump, loosen HP line at injector and crank until fuel appears at nut tighten and turn 3-4 turns and injector wil creak, tighten fitting,,done.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 28, 2015, 03:03:03 PM
When you benched tested did you have the rack open? The pumps send always send a small amount of fuel back the inlet , but more when the rack is closed.
There Is no pump bleeder screw on the Indian pumps.
Also easier than hand cranking is to remove the high pressure line. Turn engine until the pump tappet is down. Then remove the fitting under on top of the pump that retains the delivery valve, there is a spring under it so be sure to catch it. Then lift the delivery valve with your finger and wait for fuel. Once fuel appears hold it down with your finger to save mess. Bubbles like to cling and to knock them loose you tap the pump body, filter and connecting line with something similar to a screwdriver handle. Lift the valve and let trapped air out, repeat until there are no more bubbles. Reassemble retainer and high pressure line at pump, loosen HP line at injector and crank until fuel appears at nut tighten and turn 3-4 turns and injector wil creak, tighten fitting,,done.

Right .

I just came inside .... I installed the pump back onto the engine , after  playing with the pump and making some adjustments I now have fuel squirting out the end of the pipe to the  injector .

My method :  I loosened the pipe hold down nut on top of pump , then I used a syringe and squirted some fuel down the pipe from the injector end until the fuel came out the pump end . This filled the pipe with fuel .

I found a  screw on the pump body on the opposite side of the inlet hole , opening that screw made fuel bleed out so maybe thats the bleed screw ?

Anyway it seems to be Ok now

I will give it a fire up tomorrow, its too late now 12 midnight

Mike

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 29, 2015, 02:43:05 AM
Well, this morning a puddle of fuel is all over the floor, the roid decided to have a leak overnight .

This roid now has a official name " LEAKY "

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 29, 2015, 09:04:09 AM
Ok advice needed

Been trying to start this roid ..no luck

As the piston comes up on the compression stroke , it bounces back from the massive compression . I just cannot get the piston to go over TDC .

I spin the flywheel up to speed with the valve decompressor in place , but as I move the decompressor to the out position , the piston comes up and just  bounces back , It just will not go over TDC on the compression stroke  .

I see a small amount of exhaust smoke , very little . I don't have a COV fitted , maybe I need one ?

Any help gratefully accepted
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 29, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
How much force are you applying to the starting handle during compression stroke? There is a little bit of a knack to learning when to really putting your back into it.
What bump height did you set your piston/head clearance to?

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 29, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
How much force are you applying to the starting handle during compression stroke? There is a little bit of a knack to learning when to really putting your back into it.
What bump height did you set your piston/head clearance to?

dieselgman

I am giving it a pretty good upward pull on the compression stroke  .

Do I always keep the crank handle in as I release the decompressor ?

I set the bump height to .060" but it may have squashed down a bit as I torqued the head down

I have seen guys starting these engines on U tube videos and they seem to be easy to turn over and fire up . This one of mine is not easy at all
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on April 29, 2015, 01:38:27 PM
Sorry if being simplistic but Is the engine decompressing? It should just freewheel and turn easily with it engaged.  You then give it 3-4 revolutions with the crank to get a bit of momentum then swing the decompressor off of the lifter and the flywheels take it over compression. When it fires the crank will come off the shaft.

A safety hint that could save pain and suffering is to get in the habit of placing a bit of oil or grease on the crankshaft and spinning the hand  crank backwards to both spread it and also be certain the latch moves out easily, each time prior to attempting a start up.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on April 29, 2015, 02:21:08 PM
Don't suppose you were sold the myth that these old gals should still be running on single weight non detergent oil?  That was fine when there was nothing better, but a modern multigrade diesel oil will be thinner at low temps and thicker at running temps than the old stuff, and will perform better and keep an engine cleaner. Unless you have tight bearings and/or rings, your engine should spin freely and go over compression without excess effort.
Check that the exhaust valve is well off the seat when decompressed. As long as you can still depress the exhaust valve a little more at TDC before contacting the piston, you are OK.  Can always put a shim or 2 under the decomp lever if more travel is needed.  If you have had to use wide valve clearances to correct the timing then you may have to doctor the decomp travel to get the required setting.  Have fun re-inventing the Lister CS from your kit of parts. Regards,
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on April 29, 2015, 02:50:34 PM
We still recommend the non-detergent oils as a break-in lubricant. During the first 50 to 100 hours it is a good thing to encourage a little extra wear - especially for ring seating. If it is cold, then that can present a little extra difficulty in starting for sure.

I guess I did not ask you about your pump/injection timing... that can have a considerable influence on cold starting.

When you release the compression lever, you should continue to crank hard until you get ignition. Don't worry too much about initial starting difficulties... once your unit has been run a bit and you get it fine-tuned, it should start up pretty nice and easy.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 30, 2015, 02:51:50 AM
Ok

yes the engine is decompressing , the flywheel spins over up to speed , that is no problem.

Maybe  I need somebody to swing the decompressor over while I am turning the crank . I am doing this by myself and the flywheel loses a bit of momentum as I reach over to the decompressor .  .

Yes the engine will need to be broken in but at the moment it is being naughty and it will not even start .

The injector timing may be out , yes I will look at that. I can hear the injector making the  "squawking " sound as I turn the crank over .

Could it be that the plug for where  the COV normally is , is the wrong size ? If the plug is too long it may be causing too high compression ? The plug looks to be really stuck in the head , I dont like the thought of removing it .

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 30, 2015, 02:57:10 AM
and the flywheels take it over compression.

My problem is the flywheels do not take it over compression
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: M61hops on April 30, 2015, 05:30:01 AM
If the flywheels don't carry it over the compression TDC you need to spin it faster or add more flywheel mass.  Try lighter oil or invite your weight lifter friends over for a beer?  I added 2 brake drums to my Metro crankshaft to get rid of the flicker issue.  I first tried a heavy pulley on the generator shaft but the belt chirped on the combustion event even though it was as tight as I was willing to make it.  One brake drum seemed to do the trick but I had 2 and I like symmetry.  More flywheel makes starting much easier as well as curing flicker.  I wonder if the Indians scrimped on the amount of cast iron in their flywheels?  I wish I could find a set of SOM flywheels but they just don't exist in California.  There are a lot of 1 ton van and pickups in junk yards at least, and the old ones had heavy brake drums on the front.       Leland
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on April 30, 2015, 09:29:00 AM
Good news

I got my roid running this arvo  ;D

I removed the COV plug ,I discovered that  the plug has a hemisphere machined on the end . Anyway , I tried starting the roid with the plug in different positions eg screwed out . It began to make smoke a bit, I was getting closer .. I screwed the plug almost all the way in, about 4 turns from the full .

I really swung the flywheels over faster than before ..... and I kept swinging on the crank handle as I let the decompressor go , it suddenly burst into life with black smoke and a chug chug . The problem is the crank handle got stuck on the crankshaft , it was swinging around wildly in a dangerous whirling fashion, I jumped out of the way as the roid was running . I managed to reach over and swing up the cut off lever - whew !

For the short time it was running ,about 60 seconds ,  it is very smooth and balanced even with the crank handle swinging around , no jumping or walking . thanks to 38ac's balancing method  ;)

re: adding weights brake drume  , sounds like a good idea
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on April 30, 2015, 04:53:21 PM
Man, that's what we like to hear !!
I spent some time tweaking the starter handle to make sure I wouldn't have that
thing hang up. A little grease or oil will help.

Now you can start "fine tuning" !

Good job,
Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 01, 2015, 02:10:25 AM
Man, that's what we like to hear !!
I spent some time tweaking the starter handle to make sure I wouldn't have that
thing hang up. A little grease or oil will help.

Now you can start "fine tuning" !

Good job,
Gary

hi Gary

Yes I am happy now.   I thought for a while I had installed the idle gear in the wrong position  and the timing is out, but it is all OK .

For some reason this roid seems to want a COV fitted . I feel that a COV would make starting easier for me.

The Australian roid parts guy does not have any COV in stock  , he says that Jkson did not fit a COV and that Powerannand is the only roid that comes with a COV as standard

I might have to by a COV from India , I see there is a seller on EBAY with COV's .

Mike

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on May 01, 2015, 02:36:46 AM
All the true Lister clones from India came with the COV on the 6/1 models. By "true" I mean the ones who maintained a close match and parts interchange with the British designs. We even had them included with our 8/1s for awhile until it was apparent that most people did not want them. Many suppliers who were simply cutting corners, chose to leave that extra piece out of the package. We stock the part and you can also order direct from India (dozens of exporters). You certainly do not have to go through Patel (Anand) to get it.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on May 01, 2015, 02:54:26 AM
My engines don't have the COV's.

Once you start it a few times it will get eaiser.  You will start to
get a "feel for it" and then it becomes second nature.

They take a pretty good "rolling start" to run but mine will start first
try even after setting for months. I uaually pull it thru listening for the
injector"creak" and when I heard it I wind her up and off she goes !

Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 01, 2015, 03:05:13 AM
My engines don't have the COV's.

Once you start it a few times it will get eaiser.  You will start to
get a "feel for it" and then it becomes second nature.

They take a pretty good "rolling start" to run but mine will start first
try even after setting for months. I uaually pull it thru listening for the
injector"creak" and when I heard it I wind her up and off she goes !

Gary

Yes I will get the correct trick or method  to starting it  , just takes some practice  .

This is a interesting bit of info I found on a web site .  http://www.oldengine.org/members/culp/lister_diesel_miscellany.html

"In addition to the higher speed rating, the 8/1 and 16/2 dispensed with the compression changeover system. Apparently Lister's engineers figured that with a slightly lower compression ratio than the original starting ratio, the engine would start reliably and could run continuously at this ratio without the complication of changing compression ratios. The removable auxiliary chamber inserts and changeover valve were replaced with a simple plug. The compression ratio was fixed at 17.5:1. This was done without altering the volume of the combustion chamber, by shimming the cylinder at the base to produce .030" more clearance between the piston crown and head, leaving a little more air in the cylinder space at TDC. Thus, the cylinders, pistons and heads remained interchangeable between the older and newer engines."
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 01, 2015, 09:16:39 AM
Fixing the leaky fuel system

1.  get rid of the bad quality Indian tap underneath the fuel tank . The soldered/brazed tap fitting in the tank bottom,  has a odd sized thread , the like of which I have never seen before . I think I will remove that fitting and braze on a standard fitting to accept the pipe flared nut fitting

2. fit some steel fuel  pipes at throw away the Indian hoses .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on May 01, 2015, 11:59:27 AM

"In addition to the higher speed rating, the 8/1 and 16/2 dispensed with the compression changeover system. Apparently Lister's engineers figured that with a slightly lower compression ratio than the original starting ratio, the engine would start reliably and could run continuously at this ratio without the complication of changing compression ratios. The removable auxiliary chamber inserts and changeover valve were replaced with a simple plug. The compression ratio was fixed at 17.5:1. This was done without altering the volume of the combustion chamber, by shimming the cylinder at the base to produce .030" more clearance between the piston crown and head, leaving a little more air in the cylinder space at TDC. Thus, the cylinders, pistons and heads remained interchangeable between the older and newer engines."

Yup,
As you have discovered your proposed use of the COV is kinda backwards, it will lower your compression if screwed out but you wouldn't want to run the engine with it screwed in. It sure sounds as if your injection is advanced too far or squish is too tight and correcting either would be an economical alternative to a COV I think? A quick and easy check would be to crank it as if trying to start but leave the fuel lever up. If it still kicks back on the crank handle them compression is doing it, ifnot then early injection timing is doing it.

Yes  a properly set up 8/1 cranks over easier than a 6/1 with the COV cranked in but the difference is hard to feel even if you have both side by side to compare.
Data taken from the technical manuals says that a COV equipped engine when set to start should have  around 600 PSI of compression. When set to running position you should  read around 450 PSI.
A properly set up 8/1 type without COV should be around 560 PSI
My personal experience is that a properly set up engine that is broken in will be close to those figures but I caution against using them as a guide to setting squish. A lot of things affect cranking compression readings besides squish. Valve recession being one, valve sealing being another along with condition of piston, rings and bore. How fast the engine is cranked, temperature and probably a few more that I have neglected to name.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on May 01, 2015, 12:01:02 PM
Your ideas with the tank and lines agree with my methods of dealing with leaks. The tank fitting is a  standard thread but the name escapes me. I can find data if needed. The fitting will seal to the tank if you file the burrs from both surfaces and keep them parallel while doing so. A hard fiber sealing washer seems to work  better there than a copper one as long as the lines are fixed ridged and the engine isn't hopping around when running.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 01, 2015, 01:04:09 PM
To be honest I think the piston clearance may be too little - this is causing my problem .

The tank fitting has me baffled , this is the pic of the leaky Indian tap

The thread measures a bit over 5/8" on the outside . It is around 22 tpi but thats a guess .  Is it BSF ? No . Is it metric , could be ?

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/tap_zpstubqqkwf.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on May 01, 2015, 02:59:34 PM
I am pretty sure the tank is threaded  BSPP or British Standard Pipe Parallel but need to check some notes at the shop.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 01, 2015, 03:27:22 PM
I am pretty sure the tank is threaded  BSPP or British Standard Pipe Parallel but need to check some notes at the shop.

of course ... 3/8"  BSP    that's what it is .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on May 01, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
You will probibly want to ditch that tank anyway. The constant "thumping" will destroy it in time.
I had custom tanks made for mine.
Just a thought....
Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 02, 2015, 01:53:21 AM
You will probibly want to ditch that tank anyway. The constant "thumping" will destroy it in time.
I had custom tanks made for mine.
Just a thought....
Gary

Hey Gary.. my roid does not thump.... it has a gentle musical sound , like the old drum kit you used to have  :o
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 03, 2015, 09:29:37 AM
I have the Delphi filter on , still playing around with the fuel lines

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/filter_zpsdvxansle.jpg)

The maths seems to say I need a 10" diameter pulley on the ST-3 .

What have you guys done for pullies ?

I might buy a piece of aluminium and make my own pulley for a serpentine or automotive type multi rib belt , mainly because the price of a taper bush centre 10" serpentine pulley here is $200 ::) ::) ::) makes your eyes spin Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on May 03, 2015, 12:13:39 PM Going with smaller vee-belt pulleys is inexpensive in comparison. A 12" double sheaved drive pulley fitted for the engine crankshaft is common, but most prefer just to drive generators from the flywheel face due to the belt speeds required and the wear-and-tear aspect. I still prefer the industrial L section micro-v belting with heavy pulley on generator head for a lot of reasons including low maintenance, rotational stability and longevity; but indeed the costs for such can be double or triple the cost of common vee belts and pulleys. Most common aluminum types might be too soft a metal to hold up as a vee-belt pulley. A lot of wear can take place in the groove. Steel or cast iron is likely a much better choice for making your own pulleys. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on May 03, 2015, 01:11:58 PM Most common aluminum types might be too soft a metal to hold up as a vee-belt pulley. A lot of wear can take place in the groove. Steel or cast iron is likely a much better choice for making your own pulleys. dieselgman Yes I agree . But finding a lump of steel or cast iron of that diameter around here , is very difficult . One of my old lathes uses aluminium V section pullies on the motor and the counter shaft pulley and it seems to last OK in that situation Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselgman on May 03, 2015, 03:36:52 PM I believe there are some aircraft alloys with very good surface hardness. Boeing Surplus in the US would be one such inexpensive source. dieselgman Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on May 03, 2015, 04:27:28 PM :D Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on May 04, 2015, 11:16:07 AM this would be interesting if it was 10" http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/8-HEAVY-DUTY-Caster-500KG-CAST-IRON-SWIVEL-CASTOR-wheel-for-trolley-Bin-Bench-/271854939476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3f4bd12d54 Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 38ac on May 04, 2015, 01:04:09 PM When I built my sets I looked in the Reliance/Dodge catalog to find a 2-3 groove V-belt pulley that had the right hub and enough iron in the right places on the O.D. I then punched my requirements into our USA ebay which has tons of such for cheap if you watch. Mounted the pulley on a short shaft and placed it between centers and tuned away everything that dint look like a serpentine pulley of the correct size. I think I have around$40 in both of mine. If you shop for new \be prepared for sticker shock.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 04, 2015, 02:30:12 PM
When I built my sets I looked in the Reliance/Dodge catalog to find a 2-3 groove V-belt pulley that had the right hub and enough iron in the right places on the O.D.  I then punched my requirements into our USA ebay which has tons of such for cheap if you watch.  Mounted the pulley on a short shaft and placed it between centers and tuned away everything that dint look like a serpentine pulley of the correct size. I think I have around $40 in both of mine. If you shop for new \be prepared for sticker shock. Thanks for the advice :) My local scrap metal yard may have a suitable pulley - I bought my car there for$300 , ten years ago, it is still running LOL . A Ford of course  ;D
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on May 04, 2015, 02:42:43 PM
Re scrapyard shopping

Why would anyone go elsewhere??  Good prices and much better class of people than found at Wallmart,  Do you have Wallmarts? if not then good for you!!! LOL
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: M61hops on May 05, 2015, 09:34:12 AM
Normal people think I'm weird, but who cares.  That being said, the outside of a brake drum looks a lot like a flat belt pulley to me.  Some micro v grooves could be cut into the surface pretty easy in my mind  :P !
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 05, 2015, 10:29:35 AM
Normal people think I'm weird, but who cares.  That being said, the outside of a brake drum looks a lot like a flat belt pulley to me.  Some micro v grooves could be cut into the surface pretty easy in my mind  :P !

That is not weird. I bet in many 3rd world countries, that type of improvised engineering  is pretty normal .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 06, 2015, 02:36:50 AM
I managed to buy a 10"cast iron pulley today, with a taper lock centre . I paid more than I wanted to, but these pullies are hard to find around here .

It is a double A section , I will machine it down to accept a automotive serpentine belt
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 06, 2015, 10:37:39 AM
Hi

I am wondering if this radiator is suitable for my roid

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/56mm-3-Core-Brand-New-Aluminum-Radiator-For-Honda-Civic-EK-EG-92-00-/311173311886?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item48735fed8e
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on May 06, 2015, 10:53:08 AM
Nothing wrong with a 10"  AA pulley if it will give you the speed you require. At 10" diameter your belt will last forever, and should grip the flywheel OK. The polyvee pulleys for Serp belts are quite critical to machine unless you have a profiled carbide tip and holder, and a lathe with the hp to run it. You will also find the A belts much less critical to align for correct tracking. Saw several threads here in the past about the problems with them.
Lister ran a 2B pulley on the old 6/1 and 8/1 Start-O-Matics and the belts lived nearly as long as the machines. Good luck with the project.
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on May 06, 2015, 11:03:48 AM
Radiator should be plenty big enough but will need a thermostat in the top line to avoid over cooling. A low power electric fan with thermo switch is an option, but is another item that can fail unless monitored, Believe some have tilted the radiator 45 degrees toward the engine and let air convection do the job. Lots of cooling wisdom here on site if you have reading time to spare.
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 06, 2015, 11:43:40 AM
Nothing wrong with a 10"  AA pulley if it will give you the speed you require. At 10" diameter your belt will last forever, and should grip the flywheel OK. The polyvee pulleys for Serp belts are quite critical to machine unless you have a profiled carbide tip and holder, and a lathe with the hp to run it. You will also find the A belts much less critical to align for correct tracking. Saw several threads here in the past about the problems with them.
Lister ran a 2B pulley on the old 6/1 and 8/1 Start-O-Matics and the belts lived nearly as long as the machines. Good luck with the project.
Combustor.

ok that is good advice . Yes I guess I can leave the 10" pulley as a double A . If I have any trouble with the A belts tracking on the roid flywheel ,  I can consider modifying the pulley later on .

I have a lathe that runs a B section pulley on the motor V pulley and the belt drives a countershaft pulley which has  a  flat pulley on it , the V belt tracks perfectly on the flat pulley
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 07, 2015, 03:26:26 AM
Interesting pics of a start o matic , the grooves in the flywheel for the v belts

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/37208-For-stationary-engine-fans
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 38ac on May 07, 2015, 12:49:08 PM
Regular V-belts are certainly a viable option. Tracking problems that some have experienced on the flat face flywheel frankly mystify me.  Over the years I have seen many applications where V-belts were run on flat faced pulleys on either the driver and driven ones and as long as things were aligned within a half mile they run just fine. You of course need a grooved pulley on one end or the other.  My first serpentine drive generator set was assembled on a wood cart and while I did not purposely build it crooked I am not a furniture builder either. It  is within a 1/4" or so of being square. Belt racks perfectly. As a matter of fact when I read on here about a fellow having tracking problems that he could not figure out my curiosity caused me to start up my 6/1 5KW set and I purposely moved the head sideways,angled it and discovered that it has to be out of kelter a very big amount to cause the belt to run off the face of the flywheel. Still dont know what is causing some to have problems but I suspect Indian putty or bad machining on the flywheel face.
Point here being if it were me I would not jump through hoops to avoid running a belt, v or serpentine, on the rim of the flywheels until it proves to be a problem.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on May 07, 2015, 05:56:42 PM
I worked on the rig you speak of. A square was used to true everything up and an improved gen head mount was made to keep it true while tightening and still that belt will walk off the pulley. The only thing I can think of is perhaps the issue is with the belt? I don't know if a different one was tried. My serp belt tracks perfectly. In fact it tracks so well there are now grooves worn the paint from the ribs.

That said, unless you're planning to run a zillion hours and want every last bit of efficiency standard V belts will work just fine. My serp belt now has over 2K hours on it and shows no wear what so ever. Even the bio-diesel dripping on it has not harmed it.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 08, 2015, 02:57:21 AM
I have been thinking about the belts and I have decided to use a automotive serpentine belt .  I have the pulley set up on a faceplate and I am about to machine it to suit the poly V belt .

I am first going to try using the flat side of the poly v belt , eg, no ribs , I will machine the pulley flat .     If the flat side of the  belt does slip, then I will remove the pulley and machine the grooves and use the ribbed side of the belt .

One good reason for the poly v belts :   poly V or serpentine belts are dirt cheap on ebay .

And, after some thought  I am not convinced that the A section belts will track on the flywheel . B section would track Ok , as they are a lot wider  in section
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 08, 2015, 05:36:55 AM
My 6/1 - ST-3 automotive serpentine belt requires a lot of tension to avoid chirping and slipping starting my 1/2hp well pump at the ST-3 end.  No troubles except the high belt tension needed, solid tracking.  The pulley from Utterpower was very well made.

I'm using a single B belt and pulley for the ST-3 on the 810 rpm DES 8/1 propane conversion, running flat on the flywheel.  No problems.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Thob on May 08, 2015, 10:10:03 PM
Don't forget that a flat belt likes to run on a pulley with a crown in the center.  It sounds exactly the opposite of what my intuition tells me, but if the belt is running on a pulley that is concave it will run on one edge or run itself completely off the pulley.  I sometimes wonder if that's why some people have success running a belt on a pulley without grooves and some people don't.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on May 08, 2015, 10:25:53 PM
If belt tension seems to be an issue then a sprung idler pulley is a good direction to go. Most of the modern diesels use this method for almost maintenance-free belt management. You can also use the idler to get a better wrap around the offending (chirping) pulley.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: biggkidds on May 08, 2015, 11:04:49 PM
If you use an idler make sure it's on the off load side close as possible (with in reason) to your driven load pulley.

Larry
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 09, 2015, 09:36:24 AM
The idler sounds like a useful idea to consider

This is the pulley . It started out as a 2A  , I machined the centre away . I will try a serpentine belt and see how it goes .

I am making the ST-3 mount right now, out of angle iron and other stuff  . The pulley in the pic is just sitting on the shaft for a check .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/pulley3_zpsguxnwzgs.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/pulley1_zpsfzroey2q.jpg)

I had a interesting day yesterday. My neighbour Gary is a steam enthusiast. He owns a Foden Steam traction engine , he is also a trained machinist and he has a great workshop, with two lathes a horizontal borer , a big radial arm drill and more . Anyway , a rally is being held and my neighbour's friend arrived in a 1920's steam truck , also Foden brand .

The TOOT TOOT of a steam whistle is really nice to hear  ;D  The truck sits on solid rubber tyres . While I was there , they fired up the traction engine ,it takes a few hours to get it up to full steam, it runs at 150 psi with a 9" cylinder .

Gary tows a gypsy style trailer behind the traction engine, it has bunks, a stove , sink and a fridge too . They both set off this morning to the rally on quiet back roads ( not the freeway ! ) , it will tale them all day to reach the rally .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on May 09, 2015, 08:19:37 PM
I've found using 10mil black pipe wrap tape on the flywheel, creates enough of a crown, that the belt tracks fine for weeks. After a season, the adhesive starts to creep and it's just a 15 minute job to replace it.
As Tom said, it's just a mystery.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 12, 2015, 09:32:23 AM
Hi

The Honda civic radiator has arrived, it looks great .

The COV valve should be here in the next few days

Been playing with the ST-3 mount .... it is looking Ok I think , the welded angle pieces slide along the lower angle iron .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/mount1_zps5ulqvskd.jpg)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/mount2_zpsrmvj30kb.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 13, 2015, 02:02:56 AM
I have been trying to lessen the effect of  the backlash in the injector rack

This is a setup I am trying out , the spring provides a slight pushing force onto the rack

BTW in order to stop the cast crank lever from jamming, I had to grind about 1/8"from the inner face of the spindle on the crank , made it shorter . After I did this, the crank lined up with the rack more evenly , it had a bad misalignment . You can see where the bolt has space or gap because  the lever has been moved inwards

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/101_0285_zpsps5ftoyg.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on May 13, 2015, 11:18:07 AM
Hello Gippslander,
On my VA engine (Aircooled 8/1) the linkage showed some wear, so I just hooked a light spring between the heads of the split pins on the crank arm and the rack.
The little clevis piece on the rack end needs to slide and rotate freely in the crank arm, but I get a useful improvement in governing response from the simple mod. Spring only needs
to be quite light, or it will cause binding where the rack clevis slides in the arm.
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 13, 2015, 11:39:40 AM
Hello Gippslander,
On my VA engine (Aircooled 8/1) the linkage showed some wear, so I just hooked a light spring between the heads of the split pins on the crank arm and the rack.
The little clevis piece on the rack end needs to slide and rotate freely in the crank arm, but I get a useful improvement in governing response from the simple mod. Spring only needs
to be quite light, or it will cause binding where the rack clevis slides in the arm.
Combustor.

Hi up in the Kimberley

That sounds like a good mod. Do you have any pics ?

I've never seen a VA model , everybody seems to rave about them  ;D

Just after I bought the Jkson roid. I spotted an original Dursley 6/1 with  generator  for sale locally .....
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 16, 2015, 01:10:34 AM
Still making the St-3 mount

The COV arrived and it is fitted into the head.  The COV Doesnt seem to make much difference to the compression while hand cranking the engine over, but I will try it out after the radiator and st-3 are mounted .

I am not very strong , and not a big guy.  I may have to look into fitting a starter of some kind .. maybe compressed air ?

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6790.0      PS just read this post ................ great idea and this is what I will be doing
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Hugh Conway on May 16, 2015, 01:45:44 AM
Gipp:
I bought one of these friction starters as in your link. Installed it on my JKSON about 1 1/2 years ago.
The mounting tabs are welded onto the starter case with 3" clearance between the tabs.
Had some 3" channel aluminum left over from constructing the racking for my solar panels, a nice fir with the starter tabs. A pick handle modified to have a starter button in the end provided the lever. An old car battery, and Ford type starter solenoid, Bob's your uncle!
Worked great, still works great.
Cheers, Hugh
BTW, I put a COV in that same engine (JKSON), it started OK with the valve screwed in, the high compression setting. Would not start at all with the valve screwed out to the low compression setting. I went back to the plug. Used the same COV in my Dursley 6/1, it works as designed there, high compression makes hand starting very easy.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on May 16, 2015, 05:56:45 AM
It's not being strong or big, but practice, and getting enough RPM into the flywheels to let the flywheel do the compression.  That said, i get fire on the first compression above freezing, but below freezing, takes another round to get it starting.   You may have to disengage the generator, sometimes that extra loading slows you down when temps are cold and the crankcase oil is thick
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 16, 2015, 10:14:19 AM
It's not being strong or big, but practice, and getting enough RPM into the flywheels to let the flywheel do the compression.  That said, i get fire on the first compression above freezing, but below freezing, takes another round to get it starting.   You may have to disengage the generator, sometimes that extra loading slows you down when temps are cold and the crankcase oil is thick

Hi Mike

Yes it is mostly practice , it takes a while to build up the confidence of giving it a fast swing over . Is there any chance these engines can backfire ?  If the injector timing is too early , maybe there is a chance of a backfire ?

I read that somebody on this forum reported of a Lister CS engine running backwards  ???
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: carlb23 on May 16, 2015, 11:08:31 AM
.  I may have to look into fitting a starter of some kind .. maybe compressed air ?

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6790.0      PS just read this post ................ great idea and this is what I will be doing

Here is the air start on my roid.  I can't believe i posted this video 7 years ago. I used a Gast 4am air motor.  As others have mentioned it is more about technique then strength when starting by hand.  Synthetic oil in the cold of winter is a big help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2zUvQIIuY
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Combustor on May 16, 2015, 11:12:08 AM
Hi Gippslander,
No chance of a backfire when cranking a prpoerly timed diesel in the right direction. If cranked too slowly it may bounce back off compression, but will not generate enough compression heat to actually fire, or "backfire" in the way that a poorly timed petrol engine will. Think you would have to crank a 'roid backwards at considerable speed to get it firing, as timing would be less than ideal.
Have seen older multicylinder truck diesels run in reverse when rolled or towed backwards when in a forward gear and that's a bit frightening. Newer rotary pumps are built to shut off when reversed.
Am sure your 'roid will start much easier when it has bedded in and has a few working hours under its belt. Load it to near capacity once you are sure all is OK with it. A multigrade oil will help cold cranking.
Combustor.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 16, 2015, 03:01:27 PM
A very nice engine setup, Carl.  I've also been using a Gast 4AM pneumatic motor starter for the last 7+ years.  Still on the original rubber roller, working well.  My Listeroid is both generator and air compressor power source, so air start was a natural for my setup.  I've copied the air-friction starter setup for the DES 8/1 propane conversion project engine, which is also dual use, generator plus compressed air.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 17, 2015, 09:26:52 AM
The St-3 is now mounted on the base , the automotive belt seems to track OK on the flywheel . I will find out how the belt tracking  behaves when I give the roid a test run .  Now onto the radiator and hoses and thermostat

Not sure what to use for the hoses to the radiator , don't know if I can buy radiator hose by the foot .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/setup_zpscpjputun.jpg)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on May 18, 2015, 01:23:25 AM
don't know if I can buy radiator hose by the foot .

Well, around here, yes, you can.  Any of the major auto parts houses sells it.  (NAPA, Kragen, Pep Boys)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 18, 2015, 05:15:14 AM
3/4"  heater hose is adequate for a thermosiphon setup.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 18, 2015, 06:49:51 AM
3/4"  heater hose is adequate for a thermosiphon setup.

I will try the local farm hardware for hose  ;D

Are you guys using outboard engine small thermostats ?

I think I will bore out the original roid  flange to accept the outboard thermostat and use longer studs . Listeroil has done it in this post

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4884.0
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on May 18, 2015, 03:16:30 PM
add-on thermostat NAPA 253 & grind out the housing to accept it.

Fit my Metro 6/1   Took a lot of grinding on both the head and the housing, and then i stacked up several gaskets to help fill the gaps.  Used the same studs and nuts.   I did drill a 1/8" vent hole on the top of the thermostat, for air bubble purge.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 18, 2015, 04:11:42 PM
+1 for Mike's method.  His part number for the NAPA gasket was very helpful.  A friend with a plasma cutter made a 3/8 steel plate as a spacer.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on May 18, 2015, 06:29:29 PM
There's so much surface on the gen head shive that I'd be inclined to run that belt ribs down. That is the designed wear surface. Looks like first smoke pretty soon.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: mike90045 on May 18, 2015, 09:31:57 PM
+1 for Mike's method.  His part number for the NAPA gasket was very helpful.  A friend with a plasma cutter made a 3/8 steel plate as a spacer.

What was that part # i gave you for the gaskets ?
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 18, 2015, 10:29:14 PM
NAPA 1038-ST
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 19, 2015, 01:55:09 AM
The closest I can get is a Tridon TT203-195, it has a 44mm flange . It fits the Holden Commodore a local car made by GM .

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Tridon-Thermostat-TT203-195.aspx?pid=7857#Recommendations

Ok I went into town and bought the thermostat . I went to the farm supply house and looked at the hoses. I told the guy what I was using the hose for. He said , dont use PVC hose because it is rated for 70 C temp. only . At 80 or 90 C the PVC hose will look like wet spagetti  . So I got some 110C rated rubber radiator hose .  Back at home, 5 mins on the lathe had the roid flange ready for the theromstat

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/stat_zpss3dkojyc.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on May 19, 2015, 09:44:37 PM
Mike,
Again, good work !
We have found a 1/8" weep hole will really help in the t-stat.
Makes the system easy to get rid of hidden air pockets.

Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: xyzer on May 20, 2015, 12:24:51 AM
Mike,
Again, good work !
We have found a 1/8" weep hole will really help in the t-stat.
Makes the system easy to get rid of hidden air pockets.

Gary

Ditto on the hole in the thermostat. It will slowly heat up instead of hot.cold.hot.cold.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 20, 2015, 04:46:40 AM
+1 on the hole(s).  I've gotten better performance (less hot/cold) going up in size from 1/8", now use two 3/16" holes on my thermosiphon setup.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 20, 2015, 09:21:39 AM
+1 on the hole(s).  I've gotten better performance (less hot/cold) going up in size from 1/8", now use two 3/16" holes on my thermosiphon setup.

I drilled the two holes in the thermostsat so it should be ready to go.

I need to go back and buy some more radiator hose. I have to go up to the next hose diameter as the size I got will not fit over the Honda Civic radiator outlets which are 32mm OD I think .

I have removed the radiator cap pressure seal , so it will run as a unpressurised system . This is the correct thing to do ?

I will rig up a header tank for the coolant and use a small hose into the radiator neck overflow outlet
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on May 20, 2015, 12:44:57 PM
I run a radiator but leave the cap loose.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 20, 2015, 03:28:24 PM
One of the Rajkot Listeroid mods was to use a cylinder liner along with eliminating two head bolts and the lower oil sump and pump.  I have no complaint about these mods, though I think Dieselgman's emphasis on sticking to the original design also has merit.

There was concern about how well those rubber o rings on the cylinder would handle a pressurized cooling system, so many of us (myself included on my older Metro 6/1 Listeroid)  run unpressurized.

I'm not sure how legit this concern is, and there is some efficiency gain and perhaps less carbon build up for higher coolant operating temperatures, which need some pressure.

I'm still undecided on the DES 8/1 propane conversion engine; it is a Lister clone so has no liner, making pressurized operation a bit more appealing.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on May 20, 2015, 03:49:08 PM
I run a Lister parts warehousing operation among other things... so my emphasis is really all about the parts involved. Standardization simply makes my job a whole lot simpler and more trouble-free, so my emphasis is somewhat more driven by this than the technical merits (or demerits) of certain design elements. If you add the KISS principle to this, I believe the scales tip towards original designs although the elimination of an oil pump and extra sump certainly further simplifies the design. The Indian Listeroids with extra displacement, internal counterweights, Roller-bearing mains, and such modifications seem to be solid designs as well - even though they depart from Lister originality in many important aspects.

Personally and technically, I do not like the sleeved (especially wet-sleeve) cylinder configurations. Many manufacturers use this design and it serves them well from a manufacturing design perspective, but come rebuild time, a lot of extra work and trouble can come into play.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 20, 2015, 04:02:36 PM
Gary, what is your recommendation on non/pressurized coolant and operating coolant temperature?  Would this change for my propane conversion?

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on May 20, 2015, 07:14:56 PM
Bruce,

You want to run your system for certain above 180F and below the coolant boiling point... pressurization will give you some extra temperature range at the top-end but not ideal to run anything above 210. I have read here that some prefer tuning their system to about 200F. Preferable to keep the cooling system at or near atmospheric pressure (unpressurized).

The Propane conversion should produce a little higher exhaust temperature and a little more heat transfer up in the head... but the cooling system should be otherwise unaffected.

Running a pressurized system will increase the likelihood of problems (leaks) with your head gasket coolant seal... this is where the more modern composite head gasket with silicone water jacket dams comes into its own. I have not heard about any cylinder seal failures caused by pressurizing the cooling system... but I have inspected a few of the seals used in the wet-sleeve Indian Listeroids. I was not impressed with the o-ring quality.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on May 20, 2015, 07:54:24 PM
That's why they use 2 O rings, so the odds improve that you get a good one on a good sealing surface.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 20, 2015, 11:40:39 PM
Thanks, dieselgman.  We'll stick to a no pressure coolant system despite our 5600 ft elevation.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on May 20, 2015, 11:56:26 PM
That is why I went with the no pressure system.

After MANY hours of reading here I realized the potential of
coolant leaks. Man, I got enough problems without adding to
them, so the  "no pressure" cooling just seemed like a no brainer !

With that said, I did have a seep in a head gasket......again, reading
is your best frend.........remove head, let gasket dry out, soak in "mop &
glow, redry, reinstall and hey, we are good to go !

I'll amble off now,
Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 21, 2015, 12:02:06 AM
My older Metro 6/1 running here at 5600 feet elevation makes endless tiny bubbles with a 185F thermostat, I suppose from a hot spot in the cylinder head,  so I had to run it cooler.  I'll see how it goes with the DES 8/1.

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 21, 2015, 02:00:59 AM
When I noticed the two rubber rings on the cylinder liner, I was a little surprised , never seen that before . After reading through this forum , nobody has reported any problems with the rings leaking, so I thought the rings are probably OK .  Maybe modern neoprene rings would be better ?

I used a copper/asbestos  head gasket , and I used the HYLOMAR sealant on the gasket as it is a well tried and tested effective product .

I have decided to use the 25mm radiator hoses , I have ordered two 1" BSP barb fittings for the inlet/outlet flange on the roid .  I have a  mechanical temp gauge and I will use a 1" BSP joiner with a T fitting for the temp gauge bulb , on the upper flange .

I could not have done all of this setup work without the help on this forum ............    ;)

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on May 21, 2015, 04:18:03 PM
My older Metro 6/1 running here at 5600 feet elevation makes endless tiny bubbles with a 185F thermostat, I suppose from a hot spot in the cylinder head,  so I had to run it cooler.  I'll see how it goes with the DES 8/1.

Mine did that for years, never could find the problem. Then it lost compression and on removing the head a streak of corrosion was found in the cylinder wall. Put a new liner in still had bubbles and lost compression in a year. After a through investigation I found the ledge in the cylinder block where the liner seats was not machined square to the surface of the block (shocking I know). Got a new cylinder block and liner and joy of joy's no more bubbles.

To test get a jar, fill with water and hold it upside down over the bubbles if the gas bubble grows it's not steam bubbles or if you have a radiator there are cheap block tester kits that will tell you what you need to know.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: BruceM on May 21, 2015, 07:06:39 PM
Good point, Tom, it could be a tiny compression leak, somewhere, though my compression has always been very good and I'm now pushing 3000 hrs.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 22, 2015, 12:52:14 PM
I needed another outlet flange for the thermostsat , the stat fits between the two flanges . I contacted the roid dealer here but he does not have any flanges in stock  :o

I found a lump of aluminium, so I decided to make a flange

I bored and threaded it for 1" BSP thread .

Then onto the cheap Asian mill for some shaping . I can take 1/4" deep cuts with the roughing cutter in the soft aluminium  ..  If I save my pennies, one day I will buy a Bridgeport milling machine  :)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/milling_zpsvsyix1v9.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 24, 2015, 10:56:00 AM
Well the flange is made .. I am using a mechanical temp gauge . I need to buy a 1/2" BSP tap , I will drill and tap the aluminium flange for the gauge  sender bulb adapter which has a 1/2" BSP thread .

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/morrispu/gauge_zpsyuku3uuy.jpg)
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on May 25, 2015, 08:44:03 AM
At the local engineering hardware store, a good quality 1/2 BSP tap is over $80 ??? ???. They have a cheaper one , probably made from carbon steel, for$40 .  I went to ebay and got one from a Asian supplier  for $9 .... the quailty may be a issue with it but it will be good enough for tapping into aluminium . ;D Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: dieselspanner on May 25, 2015, 09:11:37 AM Hi All Across Europe we have a budget supermarket chain called Lidl, some of the hand tools they sell are of fairly decent quality. A couple of years back I bought a BSP pipe threading set, with dies from 1/4" to 1 1/4", in a plastic carrycase complete with 2 pipe cutters and two pipe wrenches, and it ain't too bad, I had the last one in the shop for €17!! And it cut around 15 1 1/4" threads when i moved the central heating boiler with no sign of damage. Well worth grabbing one if they reappear. With large numbers of big brands outsourcing their manufacturing to the Far East it's no wonder quality is getting better. Cheers Stef Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on May 25, 2015, 09:34:59 AM Hi All Across Europe we have a budget supermarket chain called Lidl, some of the hand tools they sell are of fairly decent quality. A couple of years back I bought a BSP pipe threading set, with dies from 1/4" to 1 1/4", in a plastic carrycase complete with 2 pipe cutters and two pipe wrenches, and it ain't too bad, I had the last one in the shop for €17!! And it cut around 15 1 1/4" threads when i moved the central heating boiler with no sign of damage. Well worth grabbing one if they reappear. With large numbers of big brands outsourcing their manufacturing to the Far East it's no wonder quality is getting better. Cheers Stef Hi Stef There is a ALDI store in town here , the German owned chain store . I have bought the ALDI metric tap / die sets and they are OK for using in mild steel and brass . I have not seen any BSP tap sets but I will keep on looking . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on May 28, 2015, 09:30:43 AM For running in. What would be the most suitable thermostat ? 185 F ? For normal running , is a 185 F thermostat OK ? Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on May 28, 2015, 12:50:12 PM I run a 195.... Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: carlb23 on May 28, 2015, 04:01:58 PM I also have a 195 on my C/S Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on May 29, 2015, 02:06:34 AM OK 195 F .... The thermo switch kit arrived today. I am tapping the outlet flange for the switch . Only 15 bucks for the kit http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/THERMO-FAN-CONTROLLER-INC-MANIFOLD-ADAPTOR-/281631370476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item419289acec I am planning on using the induced draft cooling method later on, but for now the Honda radiator came with a fan kit , and it will be fitted . Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on May 29, 2015, 03:02:20 AM I used the adjustable kit. Allows me to set the fan to the temp I desire. Gary Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on June 15, 2015, 01:52:17 PM hi Been making the radiator mount and it is just about finished I have an old electric heater 1kW , this heater is my dummy load for the roid during break in . Well it is cold enough right now , the heater will be handy to warm up the roid shed :) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: carlb23 on June 15, 2015, 04:05:26 PM 1kw load is probably not enough for break in. I would think in the area of 2.4kw- 2.5kw. Carl Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: 32 coupe on June 15, 2015, 11:34:20 PM Yes, run it hot and hard.....195 and 3000 watts is the thing you want. Start it, load it and watch the revs and temp. You.will be surprised at the heat that little radiator will put out ! Gary that's all....carry on Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Gippslander on July 21, 2015, 11:23:53 AM Hi I have been making the gauge panel and the electrical conduit fittings have arrived too . I prefer the old analogue gauges - volts, freq, amps etc . Is there any advantage or otherwise in the new fangled digital gauges ? Mike Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Aphrael on July 21, 2015, 07:36:22 PM Is there any advantage or otherwise in the new fangled digital gauges ? New analogue meters are going to be rather expensive compared to new digital meters. Even just decent-quality new analog meters will probably cost$75 to $100 each for volts and amps, and close to$200 for hertz.  You can buy high quality used one's on ebay for much less, but it's going to be a challenge to find them all in the same brand and model so that the faces all look the same.  The hertz meter will be the hardest to find, because they're almost only ever used in the generator world.  If you don't mind some different faces, and want analog, used off ebay is probably the way to do it.

Even the cheapest new digital meters can be superbly accurate once they are properly calibrated.  Like everything else in the electronics world these days, it's substantially less costly to manufacture good quality digital than to manufacture good quality analog.

A meter is a meter, but I agree that analog meters are probably a better looking fit to the style and era of the Lister.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Tom on July 21, 2015, 08:19:42 PM
Here's what I did. The meters were only around $10 each. (http://programmertom.com/lister/FullLoad.jpg) Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild Post by: Aphrael on July 21, 2015, 10:44:48 PM Here's what I did. The meters were only around$10 each.

I think I have the same meters.  Very inexpensive and quite accurate.  Amazing value.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on August 10, 2015, 10:13:51 AM
Been doing some reading and checking out the wiring and the distribution box I will need .

I am removing the crappy voltmeter and its box that sits on top of the St3 and instead i am installing the RCD in another custom made box in the same location. I might place the three gauges in the same box on top of the St3 . I have some conduit running to a distribution box on the wall where the outlet sockets will be . I found a good circuit on the NSW Govt. web site for the use of generators in mines .
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on August 26, 2015, 03:12:29 AM
On my ST3 head, there is a switch and a light mounted on the box next to the voltmeter .  What does the switch do ? The wires from the switch go inside the ST3 .

Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: 32 coupe on August 26, 2015, 06:39:33 AM
The switch turns on the light !
Other than that it does nothing.

Gary

Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on August 26, 2015, 10:38:18 AM
The switch turns on the light !
Other than that it does nothing.

Gary

Really  :o  A light that does nothing !
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: dieselgman on August 26, 2015, 02:22:51 PM
Silly, really... but the light is there to indicate that the generator is producing power.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: George A on August 26, 2015, 09:09:41 PM
The Chinese could save a extra few cents by leaving the switch out of the circuit. I mean, come on, if the light is on the generator's producing power......right?  :P

I'd rather have a meter any day.......................
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: vtmetro on August 26, 2015, 09:40:33 PM
Funny, I was just asking about that switch and light in the generator section of the forum.

If the last few posts apply to my ST5, too, mine also has a meter so I REALLY don't get what the switch and light are for.
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on October 02, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
I am now wiring up the bits and pieces , I have the conduit from the St3 sitting in a trench in the concrete floor , when I poured the concrete I made a trench for the conduit . The conduit goes up the wall to the box with the circuit breakers and the RCD . I also have a 15 Amp  RCD/breaker  on the St3 itself . I am using the grounded neutral system .

Not been doing much on the roid recently Mike
Title: Re: Jkson 6/1 rebuild
Post by: Gippslander on January 21, 2016, 10:03:10 AM
Hi

An update . I have wired up the 240 V  power board and its all finished apart from the earth stake in the ground . I have RCD's and current breakers in the circuit .

Ive been buying more stuff  :o  I got an old Cincinnati MI horizontal milling machine, it's a beauty  :laugh:  it came out of a school - it has power feeds on all axis and a anti backlash nut on the table X axis . Its from around 1946 . .

Also got a Churchill NB toolroom  surface grinder , an oldie but its very heavy and strong  .  Mike