Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: guest22972 on March 05, 2013, 06:22:19 AM

Title: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: guest22972 on March 05, 2013, 06:22:19 AM

I have acquired a "Century" Brand Engine which is a real Hopper, rock and roller all in one.

I had it Bolted to a Steel Trolley and suspended on 3'x5" Hardwood Fence posts. Started it up and the thing bounced up and down with far more Flexing and movement than I would have been thought possible with Timber that size.
Thought I'd be clever and Mount 4 3x3" hardwood bearers across the trolley so they were all about 15" apart. Bolted the ends to the steel frame of the trolley  and  bolted the main rails to the bearers with coach Bolts.

Fired it up and it didn't flex anymore, The whole lot did a Jumping Jack across the driveway. I mean, it achieved complete liftoff..... Wether I was standing on it or not.

Now I have been reading at length everything here about balancing and given it a couple of goes with the Mr.MX method but I'm not getting far. No doubt this is due to operator stupidity rather than the method.
I have read the comments about bolting the thing down which I had initially but that doesn't really suit ATM.  I don't have anywhere her indoors is happy with me bolting it down so I need to be able to store the thing and then bring it out to play with it. When IT was bolted down, it became clear that 3x3" hardwood 48" long bolted to the concrete at the ends were flexing and the thing was still vibrating way too much.

Also, Whatever forces that are so out of sync causing the thing to bounce around, MUST be putting added strain and wear on the components. Obviously a lot easier for bearings just to support a revolutionary Motion than a hammering type force.

So, With the thing mounted on a trolley, I have tried the Mr.X method and got no where. I'm not game to put the thing on rollers yet, that would be courting disaster the way thins thing jumps about.

What I'm wondering is can anyone give me a starting point? I understand these things are built to whatever standard and specs the Roullette wheel comes up with that day but for example, how much weight should I be looking at? I started off with 200G Deep fishing sinkers and added them in opposite the chalk mark but that didn't help. I tried adding weight to the counterweight side of the flywheel, Opposite and 3 and 9 O'clock to the Keyway ( which is dead centre in the dpoke in the Middle of the counter weight but havint had any Luck.

Do these things have a habit of needing more or less weight on the counterweight side of the flywheels or can it need weight anywhere along? I also dried Positioning the weight 7" ahead and behind of the counterweight and that got me no where either.
I was about to try lighter weights but got set back when the battery I was using on the starter motor I rigged up exploded in my face. Caught a bit of shrapnel in the forearm but I dived straight in the pool when I felt the burns starting so no injurys other than my pride. 
I was worried about the weights I was duct taping inside the rim Coming off and hitting me in the head ( which didn't happen,night have helped if it did! )  But Never thought about the sealed type battery and the short lead I had connecting the starter and the Battery.  Annoying part is the opposite lead is way long and I have plenty of other leads but I didn't even think about the thing sparking and blowing.
Damned annoyed about that.

Anyway, If there is any starting points anyone could give derived from their experience or readings on this balancing thing, I'd be most appreciative.
So far it's been a disappointing Experience!   :'(
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: Combustor on March 05, 2013, 02:03:47 PM
Hello Glort,
                 Can't help with the balancing, will leave that to those with the experience.  Thinking about your battery, if it is one of the sealed low maintenance type, it should not emit gas and be hazardous under your conditions. I well remember a brand of battery when these were first produced, that had an internal fault that caused many of them to explode with some rather bad consequences. Appears that the internal connections between cells were just a lead rivet punched through the internal separator and clinched over. A bit of vibration would loosen the connection and starting current would cause a flash in a cell full of hydrogen gas. The result was a very effective bomb.
           May be worth a Google Search for that brand and model to see if others have found the same fault. You may at least get a warranty replacement. I well remember the one that exploded under the hood of my Landcruiser. Thought someone had fired a shotgun by my ear.   Acid and shrapnel all over the engine bay. Lucky I had a bucket and was near a farm dam, so washed it all down before further damage. Another poor guy lost an eye when disconnecting a charger from one of these. Sometimes worth the extra cash for an Optima, they are bulletproof!  Regards,  Combustor.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 32 coupe on March 05, 2013, 02:14:32 PM
How fast is it running ? Any overspeed will make it seem much worse. The chaulk method works well wirh patience. Just my 2 cents. Gary
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on March 05, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
I wrote up a deal (rant??) on this several months ago. If you search back just a couple pages you will see it.  My experience with these engines isnt in vast amounts of hours but I have run a dozen or so through the shop and assuming anything about them will cause your head to spin. The Indians must look for ways to cause us to scratch our collective heads???
All that being said you can get to some degree of balance by following what is generaly known as the "Mr X" method on this forum where you simply chalk mark the high spots on the flywheels while it is hopping around and add weights opposite side of the marks. While this will get you close, probably close enough when the engines are bolted down on concrete it will likely drive you nuts trying to get it to sit still on a cart, been there. I wont go through it all again here since it is just a few pages back.

Here is what you can get to once you get the weight not only in the correct amount, but in the right place. My Metro 6/1 sitting on a cart
[youtube]p2YwtlfAVfc[/youtube]

And a DES 6/1 sitting on a small cart
[youtube]8r32P1I62Mc[/youtube]
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on March 05, 2013, 02:49:49 PM
Just a few more thoughts,
NO!, you are not stupid!  
Marking the flywheels with chaulk is as not cut and dry as it would seem to be other than for VERY course adjustment, or for fine adjustment once you are assured of some things.. What happens when you need good balance such as sitting on a cart is you simply cannot separate the balance of one side from the other. I think I named it "chasing your tail" in my article (rant??)  If you stand back and look at you engine sideways an out of balance condition on say your left flywheel not only causes it to bound up and down, it causes the right one to go up and down only in the opposite direction. When using only the Mr X method there is no way a person can know which flywheel is causing the condition?  After chasing my tail around two different engines i finally removed the flywheels and matched them for offset weight and made sure the weight was in the correct relationship to the key way and then balancing it with the chaulk method became very easy, again please read my prior rants.  This is not to say you cant get there by guess, but I coudn't.

Now that all of my Bla bla is causing you to scratch you head here are some basics I have learned that will help you short cut the process on certain engines.
1. Is your engine primarily  a hopper or a scooter? All hopping engines will move about some but one that moves very slowly but is hopping up and down is "under balanced" meaning it needs more weight opposite the crank throw.  If it is a scooter meaning it will be on a neighbors property in short order it is over balanced and needs weight in line with the crank throw.  
2. If your engine is making  turns right or left (other than very slowly) then it either has two differing balance weights or one or both is not in the correct plane with the crank throw. Generally speaking you must first cure it of turning in order to get it in decent balance on a cart in my experience.

All in all it is a very satisfying experience to get one right, just trying at times.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: ronmar on March 05, 2013, 03:19:59 PM
Well if yours is really bad, I WOULD use rollers under the frame on a smooth floor(moves easy enough to push whole assembly with fingertip), but I would NOT run the engine.  I would instead remove the head and use spacers on the studs to bolt the cylinder in place.  I would also remove the crankcase door to remove as much of the pumping drag as possible.  I would then add a pully and electric motor and spin the engine up under more controlled conditions.  I say I would, when in fact I did it just this way... 

I agree with 38ac, the Mr X method while usefull for course adjustments, is very easy to start you chasing your tail due to the marks not laying down in the exact opposite location of where the weight is needed on the flywheel.  This is due to lag and overshoot as the flywheel imbalance takes time to accelerate and decellerate in moving the whole assembly. I used the Mr X method to get a general idea where the weight was needed.  But I found it WAY more intuitive to instead measure the ammount of back and forth movement of the engine and frame on the rollers with a 1" dial indicator fixed to the floor. Since overall movement/amplitude is a factor of the imbalance, I used the movement measured to gauge how effective weight changes were.  I then added or removed weight and then experimented with changing it's location on the flywheel to reduce the movement to it's minimum ammount.  Although this method doesn't directly show imbalance between the two sides, it is very easy to experiment with changing or relocating the weight on just one wheel at a time to further reduce the overall frame movement. 

The electric motor spins the engine to about the same RPM every time, so testing is safe and the results fairly consistent.  The motor I used, I temporarilly mounted to the frame with 2X4's.  The motor I had available was not large enough to easilly spin the engine up to speed from a dead start, so I would crank it a little to get it rolling and then turn on the motor to spin it up into the upper 400 RPM range with the belt ratio that allowed it to maintain RPM.  A bigger electric motor would have made the process VERY easy.

When done this way, I was able to run the engine still on the rollers with 3KW of load on the generator head...

Good luck
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: mike90045 on March 05, 2013, 03:31:20 PM
If it's really bad, is there any value in decompressing the exhaust valve (or pulling the head off) and spinning it with the starter, to get rough balance dialed in before trying the power stroke

(I see this is an approved method, I just posted late)
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: BruceM on March 05, 2013, 04:44:14 PM
If it's scarey bad, I'd be checking first that it doesn't have crank counterweight AND flywheel counterweights.  You just never know about stuff from Rajkot. Crazy things get put together out of left over parts and put in a shipping container. Check to make sure that both flywheels have the counterweights in the same location relative to the crank- people have reported all kinds of mixups in these engines build in Rajkot.

I agree that if it's so bad it's not safe to run even at reduced rpm then you'd best do what Ronmar suggests. Even if it's not that bad, if you've got a motor handy it would certainly help greatly to not have power pulses.  You can't do the Mr X (chalking) method if the engine is jumping about like mad even at reduced speed.

If you can pull the flywheels, starting with them matching as 38ac suggests also seems wise, saving time and frustration.

If neither pulling the flywheels nor motoring up the engine is doable for you, then I'd start by adding 1 lb of clay at or opposite the flywheel weight and run it up only barely enough to see if it's better or worse.  4 oz is usual but your situation is clearly well over 5 lbs out of balance. Split the weight between both wheels and have another go until it will behave well enough to do Mr X.

I had good luck with Mr. X for coarse balance, but aside from the vibration of the engine shed (10" slab under the engine) it was not unsafe, with engine mounted on a wood timber base with 4x6"x 1" rubber pads glued between base and concrete.  To deal with mismatched flywheels, I removed half the indicated weight on the first flywheel, before trying again on the second.  Fine tuning was done trial and error. I admit I'm more meticulous and methodical than most.  



Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on March 05, 2013, 07:21:49 PM
To show what can be had to those willing to spend the time a 1938 6/1 I restored and in a fit of lunacy recently sold  :-\
Sitting pert near motionless at 650 RPM, amazing!
[youtube]9kSJ56EKZ5s[/youtube]
 
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: BruceM on March 05, 2013, 09:13:07 PM
Great video to show how a well balanced 6/1 runs, 38ac. You did a nice job! Makes a good case for evening up the flywheels before doing the dynamic balancing.

Balancing is time well spent, I think.  My "temporary"softwood base is still just fine at 2400 hrs and 6 years for construction and now off grid AC power.  I think it would be kindling if I hadn't done the balance job.



Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on March 06, 2013, 12:12:36 PM
You will be fine. Another thing I neglected to mention here is you must separate imbalances from the rocking and moving around that comes from acceleration and deceleration of a slow running single cylinder. You cant do a thing other than extremely coarse adjustments with a brand new or rebuilt engine until it has run at least 15-20 minutes of run time to loosen up a bit. Have fun!
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: ronmar on March 06, 2013, 03:00:07 PM
As alluded to, if ti is really bad, you should probably first check for bent crank or wheels not on quite right ect...  The described balance methods only really work if all the moving parts are running true.  and again 38ac is right on with the need to control the engine and frames movement and restrict it to one plane of movement...

I also forgot, that when working on balance, dime store modeling clay is your new best friend.  It has a fairly dense weight and can be cut and just stuck to the inside of the flywheel rim on both sides of the web wherever you feel the need to test weight.  I also have a link you might find interesting but it is at home so I will not be able to post it untill this evening.  It links to a dynamic balance process that I found usefull to get my brain around what is going on.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: bschwartz on March 06, 2013, 06:01:54 PM
"..........I restored and in a fit of lunacy recently sold"

I know the feeling......

I recently sold my Metro 6/1 that I put a bunch of work in to get it to run right.
I figured upgrading to a Witte CD12 was a good idea for more power....

In retrospect, I wish I had kept that engine.

Well, maybe in 6 months to a year, I can sell the Witte (just too big) when the shipping container gets here with my 6/1 and 8/1.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: deeiche on March 06, 2013, 07:05:13 PM
"..........I restored and in a fit of lunacy recently sold"

I know the feeling......

I recently sold my Metro 6/1 that I put a bunch of work in to get it to run right.
I figured upgrading to a Witte CD12 was a good idea for more power....

In retrospect, I wish I had kept that engine.

Well, maybe in 6 months to a year, I can sell the Witte (just too big) when the shipping container gets here with my 6/1 and 8/1.

no Brett, I am not going to buy the Witte from you.

the Metro is destined for some property I just bought in Cuba.   ;)  NM
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: Thob on March 06, 2013, 10:31:55 PM
...

Well, maybe in 6 months to a year, I can sell the Witte (just too big) when the shipping container gets here with my 6/1 and 8/1.

no Brett, I am not going to buy the Witte from you.


Maybe you can sell the Witte to me - contact me when you're ready and I'll see if I can buy it!

Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: mike90045 on March 10, 2013, 02:10:54 PM
  ....Now to research Gib key Pulling.  :-[

And beware the key that won't install right.  And how to space the flywheel from the housing.  Nail all that stuff down
before you pull the keys,  I think it's easier to tie the valves open (but not so much they hit the piston) or pull the head, to get rid of the compression, than to pull the keys & flywheels - then reinstall, which frankly, scares me.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: bschwartz on March 10, 2013, 02:33:34 PM
I'm glad I took my flywheels off.  If not, I never would have figured out some of my ballance issues.  The cast in weights were NOT the heaviest part of the flywheels.  When rolled on a smooth surface (on a 2" shaft would have been better, but I didn't have one), the flywheels would stop with the weight at about 5:00 instead of 6:00.  I had to take many slow hours with an angle grinder and slowly remove extra flash from individual spokes, and areas around the inside of the rim to get the flywheel weights to point straight down.  Without even adding or playing with other weights, the engine ran MUCH smoother after that.  I have no idea how much weight was at each location, and with enough effort, I could have gotten it smoother than I did, but on a cubic yard of concrete sitting on a 1/2" rubber mat, it worked well.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: M61hops on March 11, 2013, 10:10:17 PM
My 6-1 Metro would idle fine but as soon as I opened the rack just a little it would start to leap up into the sky!  That is the reason the guy I got it from sold it to me, it was not useable like that!  I took out the change over valve hole plug and belted an old golf cart motor to a flywheel.  With 36 volts the motor is supposed to make 3hp and it was perfect to spin the Metro at 647rpm.  I had the electric motor, Metro, ST gen head and frame on rollers tethered by a lot of bungee cords to 4 55gal barrels of water. I set up a 1" travel dial indicator and it didn't take long to find that about a half pound of weight about 90 degrees ahead of the cast weight on each flywheel was the fix!  It took a lot longer to set everything up than it did to get the balance right.  Using chalk was not doable for me, it just caused confusion.  The amount of added weight and it's location don't seem to need be too precise and it worked wonders!  For my Metro I don't think there would be a better way to have done this!  Just my 3 cents.                 Leland                    (Before you pull your flywheels I would suggest you try adding weight about 90 degrees ahead of the cast weights, might save a lot of work?)
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: xyzer on March 12, 2013, 03:46:32 AM
M61 is right. I learned by dynamically balancing 2 6/1 they like to be balanced at about 68% of the reciprocating weight. The Indians appear to be balancing at 55%. To increase the % it needs more weight in the counter balance area of the flywheel. Of course one flywheel may be different that the other so ease into it with clay on the inside rim of the wheel.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on March 20, 2013, 03:24:10 PM

I'm thinking that I was very Naieve  



Could be I guess but then there are two of us  ???   I could not  get anywhere with the 2nd one I did by just chalking the wheels and adding weight although somehow #1 got decent that way.  Now I dont even try chauk before getting the wheels right, sure makes things easier.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: 38ac on April 17, 2013, 02:23:30 PM
Getting an engine to sit still on a wheeled cart is an entire world away from getting one to be reasonably behaved when bolted down or on a framework with a generator head or even when lagged to a wood shipping skid. What I have found in my balancing adventures and tried to stress in my rambles on the forum is that when it is critical to have good engine balance (such as sitting on a cart)  it is critical to get the off set weights for both flywheels the same and in the correct position in correlation with the crank throw. These two problems are what cause people to "chase their tail" when attempting the Mr X method alone.   Once this is done achieving a good balance at any given RPM is as simple as figuring out if it is hopping or scooting with the MR X Chauk method and then adding an equal amount of weight to both wheels. ALWAYS either exactly in line with or opposite the crank throw, NEVER at any other position.
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: M61hops on April 21, 2013, 11:07:23 PM
When I first saw my Metro jumping off the ground, this image of the heavy piston and rod staying at TDC while the rotation of the crank jerked the rest of the machine up towards someplace where the inertia forces averaged out.  The next image in my head was of a saddle and me riding the machine around the yard!  :laugh: That seemed like it would put too much forces on the flywheels and crank and cause failures that could be painfull so I started thinking of how to tame the engine.  I thought the cast in weights were too light and tried adding more to them but it turned out that more weight was needed about 90 degrees ahead of the cast in weights.  ???  I guess that inertia causes a time lag?  Anyway, the weights I added are well on their way down when the crankshaft throw jerks down on the piston and rod.  It was very helpful to have a dial indicator showing me the amount of back and forth while could see and feel the up and down movement.  Taking out the COV plug and spinning the Metro with an electric motor also made it easier to see what different amounts and positions of weights did.  I also tried adding weights to one side or the other and that didn't make any difference so I'm guessing that my flywheels are both about the same.  My engine now runs smooth enough although I can feel the thump of the power stroke several feet away.  I plan someday to expand the frame of the genset so I can fill it with concrete and set it on a rubber mat.  I put a real heavy pulley on the generator to try and get rid of the flicker and that made the belt chirp on the power stroke and didn't completely eliminate the Lister flicker problem.  Then I machined the rear brake drums off a one ton van to take tapered bushings that allowed me to mount them to the 6-1 crank.  Bingo, no more flicker!  Someday I may test the flywheels off the engine to see how close they match, I'm sure my engine would bobble around a bit if it was on a trolley.  The next thing I want to do to it though is rig up an electric starter and maybe a glow plug; my spine is too messed up to allow me to spin the set by hand and I doubt I could get it started on a cold day.                       Leland
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: mike90045 on April 23, 2013, 03:12:01 PM
I had a thought last night, while trying to come up with a way to avoid renting a $70/day vibra-plate soil compactor...   Mount the listeroid on a skid and compact the ground with it
Title: Re: Help with Balancing 6/1
Post by: bandmiller2 on April 24, 2013, 12:35:45 PM
Although I have only an original Lister that runs quite smooth[for a one cylinder diesel] I find this balancing very interesting.I'am on the outside looking in but it seems to be a crap shoot and trial and error is the only solution.Were I to be faced with this I would try a moveable clamp on weight with a cavity to add lead shot.Glort,remember "its but a whale and we're whaling men"keep at it mate.