Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Straight Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: kyradawg on June 15, 2006, 04:30:17 AM
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Just a modern variant on the old 2 stroke total loss lube system.
In fact with all the prior art I don't see how it is patentable, USPO no doubt, patent anything there..... it's gonna need one hell of a fuel filtration system if you want your pump and injectors to last more than a few thousand hours
As far as listers go it at a stroke removes the multifuel capability too, listers have a beautifully elegant and simple lube system that has been proven to last many tens of thousand of hours, you can't improve on that by making something as complex as this will have to be to work reliably and safely
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I wonder if all that mechnical movement airates the oil. The fuel system wouldnt like that would it?
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Also, doesnt a lister have a problem of keeping it oil at the proper temperature anyhow? (to cold)
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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No, I mean even with regular oil the lister in some peoples opinion does not get the oil hot enough for a single weight oil to flow properly, ie the case is so large it disapates the heat to quickly. There have ben discussions on the board as to adding a crankcase heater, although I dont know if anyone has done so. If that is the case how does one expect it to heat the vegtable oil(or any oil) up to 160/180 degrees and maintain that temp through the long journey to the injectors? Add a tank to take the air out and you have lowered the temp even more. On a higher horsepower/lower weight engine I might see it working.
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Here is an interesting idea. How about using the cooling jacket of a Listeroid to heat the VO. A thermostatic controlled heat exchanger could be used to dump the extra heat. It would also eliminate the freeze and rust problems associated with water. I'd bet the head gaskets would not weep VO either.
With the location of the "water" outlet in relation to the injector and pump a insulated coax line could be easily made to keep the fuel warm on its way to the injector. 8)
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if I was going to add a fuel heater to my genuine lister I'd make up a maze block and bolt it to the barrel on the flats where the fuel tank mounts often go, need any more, use resistance wire.
I instinctively hate wrapping copper tube around the exhaust for 2 reasons.
1/ if it leaks and you are running under load, you might get a fire
2/ copper leeches into the fuel and eventually buggers up the pump and injectors
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Here is an interesting idea. How about using the cooling jacket of a Listeroid to heat the VO. A thermostatic controlled heat exchanger could be used to dump the extra heat. It would also eliminate the freeze and rust problems associated with water. I'd bet the head gaskets would not weep VO either.
With the location of the "water" outlet in relation to the injector and pump a insulated coax line could be easily made to keep the fuel warm on its way to the injector. 8)
oil carries a lot lower heat load than water, it is a good idea, and you'd possibly get away with it if drawing lister start-o-matic style 1/2 max bhp tops, but it has one real massive drawback
if the head gasket goes, you have a runaway.
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Darren,
In the spirit of full disclosure, shouldn't you mention what you're running your veggie in? And that because of the differences in technology, YMMV?
Halfnuts
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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He's humble too! :o
Halfnuts
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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I want a Listeroid BAD! but I am simply to poor to obtain one, when I do I have a clear plan laid out to increase its efficency and mechanical longevity.
mine is 50+ years old, still runs sweet as a nut (prime the oil pump, three cranks, take the start handle OFF, and THEN reach over to release decompressor, first lump every time) and bugger all fuel consumption.
you won't be able to improve on that as long as you have a hole in your ass.
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My lack of ownership by no means discredits or diminishes the validity of the majority of my posts.
Although many may use it as a stepping stool to piss on what may be some truely awesome ideas/facts.
Peace&Love :D, Darren
you know, that sounds a hell of a lot like a virgin trying to tell a stud about women... 8)
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Guy,
Somehow Im not surprised that of all the info in this thread that was the one you found worth repeating.
Whatca wanna know about listeroids, vegetable oil as fuel/lube, making horsepower, Diesels in general or just cool ideas and machines?
Ill give you my virginal opinion that Ive gathered from my 17 year intrenchment in the industry.
Peace&Love :D, Darren
Darren, if you've been 17 years in the industry you should have learned by now that different engines have different characters, and 17 years of learning the different characters of different engines doesn't tell you much about an engine you've never seen touched heard or smelt, worse still, you're going to have your first experience on a clone.
17 years is enough time to have learned that it has all been done before, and usually better too.
like my old man used to say about motorcycles, lube oils got magically better, pneumatic tyres got magically better, nothing else was new in 70 years.
since he died there is nothing else new really, electronics instead of electrcics is still just a cheap way to do something with less elegance and reliability, and ceramic pistons and engines are going to come on line about the same time as flying cars and commercial fusion, "in 20 years", that would be a rolling 20 years.
I got more engineering history than you, and you know what I know about a cummins? bugger all, because I've never touched one. Touched damn near everything else, including detroits 71 series 92 series etc (and hate them as it happens) but never a cummins.
read about them, heard them going past in peterbilts, talked to people about em, but until I own and work on one and live with one I don't know dick.
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Guy, ever mess with an IVECO 4 or 6 with the individual valve covers? Basically the same thing as a b series cummins as the were developed jointly cummins sold here, iveco on the other side of the pond. Although know the non competition agreement between the two has run out and Iveco is trying to sell that series here as well now.
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Tom may be on to something, Rumely used that system early in the last century in their famous "Oil Pull" tractors.They used the exaust blast to create draft in the radiator,,,,no fan.
Guy, if a head gasket went,wouldn't the volume of oil drawn into the cylinder tend to drownd the engine? I don't know that much about diesele,wouldn't it just suck a cylinder full,then push it back out on the compression stroke,never really building much compression?See,I told you I didn't know much,shoot,I dont even know which way to turn one overto start,but I'm a learnin
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If a head gasket blew the compression would blow the fuel out not suck it in. I think the cooling systems on our Listers are massively overbuilt so the reduction of heat transfer that oil provides is also probably not an issue. In fact the lower heat transfer may improve efficiency by allowing the engine to run at temps above 212F.
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If a head gasket blew the compression would blow the fuel out not suck it in. I think the cooling systems on our Listers are massively overbuilt so the reduction of heat transfer that oil provides is also probably not an issue. In fact the lower heat transfer may improve efficiency by allowing the engine to run at temps above 212F.
take a BONE dry test tube, open the rack on a bled and removed injector, then crank ONE shot of fuel into the test tube.....
say for the sake of argument 1 litre of fuel per hour.
1 litre = 1000 cc
650 RPM = 325 firing strokes per min = 325 x 60 = 19,500 per hour
so one shot of fuel at full power is about 1/20th a cc
I'd say 0.5 cc excess fuel is enough to go from 650 rpm to dangerous overspeed, 1 cc will be enough to have you running for your life
4 stroke cycle is SUCK squeeze bang blow
squeeze and blow will pressurise the collant circuit through the gasket blow, what happens to a pressurised liquid circuit when the pressure is released from squeeze and bang to blow and suck?
ask mr belk if it is a good idea to wear a nice white shirt, then stand 3 feet in front of someone and fire a bulllet into them
please please don't make assumptions where chaotic systems are concerned, they can be extremely dangerous.
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Yeah, like a bipolar girlfriend with PMS!
Halfnuts
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shuddering at the thought of the girlfriend. i choose the overspeed lister.
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Peace&Love , Darren
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Do we HAVE to? We were just beginning to have some fun.
Ok. The engine would have to be totally redesigned. Thinner lubricant means closer tolerances and larger bearing surface areas to maintain lube film integrity. What you're proposing is how every 2-stroke outboard works, except they are lubed by atomized fuel/oil mixture, not by splash, and therefore don't suffer the parasitic drag from slinging all that oil around its chit'lins. As long as you're doing this, why not just make the engine a 2-stroke. The blown GM 2-stroke diesels were legendary workhorses.
If that idea has indeed been granted a patent, it must be written very narrowly. Lots of prior art has passed under the bridge in the last century.
Halfnuts
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Guy,
Who said the VO used as coolant was going to be pressurized. Also diesels do not have manifold vacuum so the suck is very, very small.
Let me ask you this have you ever seen a diesel blowing steam? Every diesel head gasket failure I've seen blows fuel into the coolant, so in this case the fuel would just be recycled another bonus. :-*
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Guy,
Who said the VO used as coolant was going to be pressurized. Also diesels do not have manifold vacuum so the suck is very, very small.
Let me ask you this have you ever seen a diesel blowing steam? Every diesel head gasket failure I've seen blows fuel into the coolant, so in this case the fuel would just be recycled another bonus. :-*
the coolant will be pressurised the moment the gasket blow, and on the blow and suck strokes the pressure inside the coolant system will exceed cylinder pressure, and you'll get leakback, and 0.05 cc of leakback will give you full throttle with the rack shut down
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Halfnuts,
No need in adjusting clearances canola (rapeseed) oil is the same viscosity as SAE30WT (straight 30)
Like I stated before I run canola oil in the crankcase of my 6.9 diesel and have seen no reduction in oil pressure If canola was to "light" there would be a corresponding loss of oil pressure.
Actually I cant swear to it but I think Ive noticed a slight rise in oil pressure at operating temps do to the higher thermal stability inherent to canola.
Tom,
The intake valve opens 7* before top dead center (piston is down in the hole .024" +-.001) on a listeroid which means that the intake valve is open before the intake stroke even begins, so it is impossible for the intake stroke to pull harder on the head gasket than it does the intake port. The only real contributer to combustion chamber contamination from the cooling medium is cooling system pressure.
Guy,
According to my and Mr Lister's calculations the full rack pump shot volume of a 6/1 mico pump is .110cc's.
.05cc's would be right around half racked.
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Reguarding the crankcase oil temperature;
I installed a marine gear oil cooler in the jacket water upleg, then ran the oil pump outlet to it before sending it to the engine. The oil came up to running temp in a few minutes, just like the jacket water did. Anyone can do it, and it may be the best way to cope with the detergent oils that were not available when RA Lister designed the CS. The Listeroids don't have the complex crankcase casting of the Lister, so there is no real quiet area for the particulate matter to settle out of the oil. Although some Posters have noted that the oil tends to "sort it'self" anyway. So: all the twins and some of the singles have oil pumps. Do it, and add a full flow oil filter. If you don't have a pump, use a Hotater oil filter at least.
New oil from the drum or jug might not be so clean. We use a lubrifiner filter on all oil for our controllable pitch propellers before we drop it from the storage tank to the sump. If you were to use bean oil as lube, then as fuel, you should filter it in stages: Coarse, fine, into the sump. Full flow in the engine, and fine in the fuel line. After some experience, you might be able to reduce that. Brevity is the soul of wit, and an engineer would do well to design the same way (that's why we like Listers).
Well, I have not designed for brevity, so take my advice at the price you paid for it. I went for personal satisfaction and amusement. On the other hand, I was both pleased and amused (must not take much?)
Scott E
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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I think the oil comes out of the exchanger 10F lower than the Jacket water, and runs in the engine about 10F lower than that due to heat radiating from the large engine block. That's a general guess, I don't have any instrumentation on the engine, nor alot of run time. I have powered the house on it a few times, but it is a standby generator, and we haven't had a power failure since I got it set up.
Scott E
PS
Darren; I messaged you about your ford truck off the list...I'm thinking about getting one (6.9L F-250) what do you think of yours? Anyone else got a comment?