Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Petteroids => Topic started by: edutchie on June 14, 2006, 09:52:04 PM

Title: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: edutchie on June 14, 2006, 09:52:04 PM
I am working with mkdutchman, trying to unsmoke a mini-petter. (see post by mkdutchman)
Some say we need a thermostat, some say thermosiphon takes care of itself.
What have you experiences been?
What type of thermostat are you using and where can I get one?
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: GuyFawkes on June 14, 2006, 10:27:00 PM
Thermosyphon is a lot more efficient than people realise, even at low temperature differentials, but I suspect a lot of the problem is people running these engines at very low rack openings, if you don't have much of a load, create one, fuel consumption is economical enough, so treat it as "free" work and beat yourself up for not using it, even if it is running a bar fire in the open air to dry the soil.

once you accept that first Kw is free energy going to waste, there are a hell of a lot of things you can do with it.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 14, 2006, 11:26:52 PM
Thermosyphon is a lot more efficient than people realise, even at low temperature differentials, but I suspect a lot of the problem is people running these engines at very low rack openings, if you don't have much of a load, create one, fuel consumption is economical enough, so treat it as "free" work and beat yourself up for not using it, even if it is running a bar fire in the open air to dry the soil.

once you accept that first Kw is free energy going to waste, there are a hell of a lot of things you can do with it.

Yep, that's why some put in a thermostat, to slow down the circulation a bit.

I just thought of something, rather then just baking dirt :) a good use for waste heat would be a wood drying kiln.  Kind of a symbiotic relationship the kiln needs a lot of heat and just enough electricity for the controls and fans, and we all know the engine makes a bunch of heat and some electricity.  If you run your engine 24/7 you could dry lumber and likely make more then enough money to pay for your fuel.  If your engine is just run now and then I would look at drying fire wood, controlled drying of quality lumber is not a process that can be started and stopped at random but fire wood does not matter.  And well dried wood makes for a lot better fire when it gets really cold.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: GuyFawkes on June 14, 2006, 11:40:48 PM
if you have land and a little space between you and neighbours then there's lots of money making things you can do with "free" power, electroplating, anodising, induction furnaces.....
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: mobile_bob on June 15, 2006, 03:21:06 AM
i would like to state that thermo syphoning can take place with as little as one degree of temperature differential.

so without a thermostat and useing a water tank that is not closely matched to the exact load, ambient temperature(which would have to be constant) there is no way to get the engine up to proper operating temp with any consistancy.

for instance

say a minipetter was put together with a thermosyphon system using a 5 gallon tank and carrying a 1.5 kwatt load on a 90 degree day(ambient) it might come up to around 190 degree's F.

now using the same system, and moving the ambient temp lower by 40 degree's, and reducing the load to .5 kwatt, the operating temp of the engine will fall below 190 degree's and likely far below 190.

the tstat control would maintain the temp up to 190 or so, reguardless of load or ambient temperature.

even modern designed diesel engine's will emit a haze or gray smoke when running in cold ambient temps and no tstat, especially at no or low load conditions.

also if you want the engine to live a long life you want it to run up to around 180 to 195 degree's.

other consideration are when running an engine at low temp's it is hard to get enough heat rise in the crankcase to boil off
condensation in the lube oil, causing acidity to build up and other problems that shorten engine life.

i have seen too many diesel engines that are poorly maintained, with either missing or failed tstats, stuck fan clutches or fan controlls worn out far too soon. and they all emit smoke!

i really don't know why a petter or a lister would be any different.
bob g
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Doug on June 15, 2006, 04:43:38 AM
I've been picking over the corpes of my old "Mine Cat" ( New Holland tractor conversion for use in mines cylinder Ford, not the nicest way to get around but it beat walking ). Among the things I snatched were the Rad, thermostat and housing, all Ford parts. Nice big 3 core rad with lots of surface area that I hope won't need a fan. Nice big Ford thermostat housing that I hope I can make a short stand off adaptor for and use the original Petter cooling outlet with.
My thinking is to use the largest practical parts that will free flow well and close of well when cold. I could have just as easily used 520 Kubota parts, but I want bulky to blow off heat and Ford thats easily a stock item at any parts store.

Doug
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 15, 2006, 01:07:49 PM
if you have land and a little space between you and neighbours then there's lots of money making things you can do with "free" power, electroplating, anodising, induction furnaces.....

Yes, but those are all electric loads which could be used if your only goal is to increase the load on the engine to get it's temp. up.  The trick is to find something to do with all the heat, in cold weather it can be dumped into the house but what to do with it the rest of the year.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 15, 2006, 01:12:18 PM
i would like to state that thermo syphoning can take place with as little as one degree of temperature differential.

It will take place with a lot less then one degree differential, if the water is completely homogenous (no salinity concentrations etc.) ANY temp. differential will get things moving. :)
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: fattywagonman on June 15, 2006, 02:43:45 PM
See guys, If you are using thermo siphon ... the trick is to run the engine low on water that way the water must boil to circulate :)
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: solarguy on June 15, 2006, 04:33:38 PM
I originally set up my 6-1 w/o a thermostat, with thermosyphon.  Took more than an hour to make it to operating temps, even with a good 2.5kw load.

Then installed t-stat a couple of weeks later, what a difference.  Up to 190F in ten minutes every time, regardless of load.

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: ronsmith on June 15, 2006, 05:29:33 PM
How can you adapt a thermpstat to the hot water side on a mimipetter? I tried to put in a 190deg. stat in line near motor and ran for 20min. or so and the motor got hotter than hell but stat never opened so I removed it. It also smoked during the whole time. I made sure the stat was installed facing the proper end. Can someone tell me how to adapt stat directly to petter block? :-\
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 15, 2006, 05:56:01 PM
How can you adapt a thermpstat to the hot water side on a mimipetter? I tried to put in a 190deg. stat in line near motor and ran for 20min. or so and the motor got hotter than hell but stat never opened so I removed it. It also smoked during the whole time. I made sure the stat was installed facing the proper end. Can someone tell me how to adapt stat directly to petter block? :-\

I short while back Guy posted a pic of a remote thermostat housing, you will note it had three ports.  One in from the hot end of the engine and two outs, one of the outs is blocked by the thermostat and should go to the cooling system the other out goes back down to the cold end of the engine.  That allows a circulation path for a small amount of water between the engine and the thermostat housing, when that water gets hot enough the thermostat starts to open and a second circulation path starts thru the cooling system.  Without that first circulation path the thermostat will never get to see the hot water in the engine, even if it is just a short hose because contrary to popular believe water is not a very good CONDUCTOR of heat it is good at moving heat by convection (thermo siphon) but by conduction it is better then air but not near as good as say iron.

A second way, but not as good in my opinion, is to have a small leak thru the thermostat so that the hot water can get to it.


On conduction of heat by water.  One common problem with the boilers on traction engines running in very cold weather is that the water under the fire box would freeze solid even while it was making great volumes of 150 psi steam.  This would happen because the circulation in that part of the boiler tends to be very slow.

Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: ronsmith on June 16, 2006, 07:50:19 PM
I looked up Guys thermostat housings and they look like what I need. I wonder how to go about buying one? ???
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 16, 2006, 08:15:27 PM
I did a bit of searching and mostly found that cars using them had names like BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari.  Not many of them in junkyards around here.:)  A Ferrari rolled thru town one time, looked like a dam parade with people following, pointing and stuff.

They must be available but I did not find any, but I did not do much of a search.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: GuyFawkes on June 23, 2006, 05:58:54 PM
I did a bit of searching and mostly found that cars using them had names like BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari.  Not many of them in junkyards around here.:)  A Ferrari rolled thru town one time, looked like a dam parade with people following, pointing and stuff.

They must be available but I did not find any, but I did not do much of a search.


very very common on modern watercooled japanese motorcycles.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: listeroidsusa on June 24, 2006, 03:33:24 AM
One thing some of you might be overlooking regarding the Petter type engine is WHERE the engine cooling water enters the engine. This has a direct relationship to its warming up. For example, when the petter is cooled by run through water, the water is not put into the engine at the base of the cylinder. The Indian petters have 2 water ports on the head, a high one and a low one. For the run through cooling system the bottom port on the cylinder is capped and the inlet goes to the lower head port. The water surrounding the cylinder is out of circulation except by convection currents. This would allow it to warm up and still not overheat since the head is being cooled and the cylinder water could "thermosiphon" up to the head area. This might be something to try and see whether it helps with a thermosiphon cooled engine. It would take mounting thermometers in each of the ports to really see what is happening. Or possibly one of the new infrared thermometers.

Mike
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: sid on June 24, 2006, 02:33:03 PM
remember to drain that lower part of the engine in the fall// it holds enough water that it could have some  freeze damage.  sid
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: listeroidsusa on June 24, 2006, 09:51:04 PM
As far as 3 port thermostat housings go, I've been building them for several years. I sold out last week but will be building a batch of 50 after the 4th of July weekend if I can get caught up. The housings I build allow the engine to thermosiphon the water from the head to the lower block until it reaches the thermostat's opening temperature and then allows flow until the temperature drops below the thermostat setting. It then repeats the cycle. With this setup very little cooling water is needed. I cool my 6/1 with a 2500 watt load all day on 5 gallons of water. At 180-195 degrees the engine radiates enough heat that little flow is needed. The 6/1 runs at 180 degrees and the thermometer in my cooling tank rarely gets over 150 degrees. These housings will also adapt to the petters by fabricating a flange to bolt onto the water port instead of the hose connection they come from the factory with.

Mike
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: hotater on June 27, 2006, 03:35:24 PM
I quit using a thermostat in anything.  It's much simpler to install a gate valve on the top hose.   A Listeroid generating about 1800 watts uses five gallons of water an hour.  A MP uses about two gallons an hour.  It's just a bare trickle of 195 degree water coming from either one.   For extra loads or hot weather a T in the hose between the valve and the engine with a pop-off valve will work, but I've not needed it, yet.

IF I was running anti-freeze and a closed system I would install a thermostat, for sure.

Ronsmith----   You have to drill a hole in the rim of the thermostat to allow the water to bypass it while closed.  Otherwise there's a bubble trapped in the engine that can't escape.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: ronsmith on June 28, 2006, 05:09:28 PM
Thanks for the info hotater. I am going to install the gate valve on the upper hose and try that. I am using a 40gal tank sifon feed w/ antifreeze. The tank is vented so its not closed.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 28, 2006, 05:39:19 PM
<< snip >>
For extra loads or hot weather a T in the hose between the valve and the engine with a pop-off valve will work, but I've not needed it, yet.

IF I was running anti-freeze and a closed system I would install a thermostat, for sure.
<< snip >>

???
A pop-off valve implies pressure relief but with an open system you are never going to get any significant pressure.  Unless you also have a check valve in the lower hose to the engine.
So I assume you are referring to a T&P valve like on a water heater.
Is not the temperature function of a T&P valve the same as that of a thermostat?  With maybe some hysteriesis built in so that it snaps open and stays open longer.  I am not sure they will work very well in a low pressure system anyway.  Seems it would be better to just use a thermostat that will open just enough to maintain a constant temperature.
Or do you want this pop-off valve for "WHEN" you forget to open the manual valve enough. ;)
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: hotater on June 28, 2006, 05:47:36 PM
Andre'--

Pop-off was the wrong term.  All that's needed is an escape route for water that can't get past the gate valve fast enough.  A 'T'  between the valve and the head with a three foot hose running up the wall serves just fine.  If you see a geyser from the tube, open the gate a little!
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Andre Blanchard on June 28, 2006, 06:43:13 PM
Andre'--

Pop-off was the wrong term.  All that's needed is an escape route for water that can't get past the gate valve fast enough.  A 'T'  between the valve and the head with a three foot hose running up the wall serves just fine.  If you see a geyser from the tube, open the gate a little!

Well then take opens up some possibilities.
How about point that tube into a bucket, at a tangent so the geyser can spin down and stay in the bucket.  Hang the bucket from a rope, rope up over a pulley down to a long lever duck taped to the valve handle.
Bucket fills up, rope pulls on handle opening the valve.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: hotater on July 07, 2006, 03:44:59 AM
Andre'---

Actually I have a ten gallon propane tank for a water tank (For Listeroid),  but it has a toilet valve and float in it.  As water is used and runs to waste fresh water is pulled from the tank and it's replenished automatically by way of the toilet float valve.  I have a capacity of 40,000 gallons of water with gravity feed, so running out of water or losing pressure is not a problem.
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: Doug on July 07, 2006, 06:25:59 PM
Flush-o-matic !!!!


Doug
Title: Re: Thermostat needed (?) for 3.5 HP Petter
Post by: ronsmith on July 08, 2006, 03:08:42 AM
I installed a gate valve on the upper hose on my petter. I also wrapped tubing around my exhaust and ran my fuel through it. Between choking down the hot water hose and heating the fuel I have seen a huge reduction in smoke. I used aluminum gas thermostat tubing for the heater and it bends real easy. From what I can tell my petter head temp was way too cold and the hyd. oil I was using for fuel was way to thick and was causing incomplete combustion and thus smoke.Much better now, thanks for the gate valve tip.