Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: TPXX on October 11, 2012, 09:34:29 PM

Title: Engine cooling
Post by: TPXX on October 11, 2012, 09:34:29 PM
Has anyone hooked up a radiator with a fan driven off of one of the fly wheels or a smaller pulley? If so, was it effective, and do you have any pictures of your set up?
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: dieselgman on October 11, 2012, 09:59:46 PM
Lister equipped some of their stuff in just the way you suggest - crankshaft mounted pulley inboard of flywheel with belt driven fan and small convection/forced-air radiator.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: 38ac on October 12, 2012, 01:35:21 AM
One I built last winter. A little complicated for off grid usage I think but this engine is a portable power unit on a cart. As Gary said Lister built factory radiator engines. It sat high over top one of the flywheel sand had a fan driven by belt.

(http://oi40.tinypic.com/250kmtt.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: TPXX on October 15, 2012, 05:29:19 PM
Thanks guys, I was thinking of mounting the radiator above the fly wheel somehow, your set up looks nice but lots of pulleys to change the plane of rotation! What kind of belt is that? Any idea of the rpms you get out of it?
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: xyzer on October 15, 2012, 07:11:05 PM
tpxx
My plans on this 6/1 is to run the fan like the originals with a pulley mounted on the inside of the flywheel. I have a split pulley already made I just need time to get a fan and pulley put together. Presently I am using the original Geo Metro electric fan. I can tell you if you have an adequate sized radiator it does not take much of a breeze to keep it cool. If you live in Arizona in the summer you might have a problem!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/DSCN18832.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Tom on October 15, 2012, 07:16:40 PM
Hey Dave, have you given any thought to using a thermostatically controlled fan clutch on that fan. Might save some fuel.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: xyzer on October 15, 2012, 08:18:46 PM
Hey Dave, have you given any thought to using a thermostatically controlled fan clutch on that fan. Might save some fuel.


Now lets keep it simple Tom! No I have not thought of that. I am not going to put much of a fan on it. All of my playing around has found overheating usually happens on dead calm hot days. If there is the slightest breeze out overheating is not a problem. Now if it was in an enclosed building it would be a different story. I was thinking of a small fan with not much pitch just enough to push air through it. I have a electric thermostat on it that turns on the electric fan but it is rarely needed.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: TPXX on October 16, 2012, 07:37:41 PM
tpxx
My plans on this 6/1 is to run the fan like the originals with a pulley mounted on the inside of the flywheel. I have a split pulley already made I just need time to get a fan and pulley put together. Presently I am using the original Geo Metro electric fan. I can tell you if you have an adequate sized radiator it does not take much of a breeze to keep it cool. If you live in Arizona in the summer you might have a problem!

Sounds like electric is easier. I read another post where someone had used a 120v attic vent fan with a temp sensor on the head water outlet to operate it. Seems pretty simple. Is the radiator from a Geo Metro as well? Did you mount it sideways? I would just use a barrel but I want the unit to be semi portable, and radiator cooling makes that simpler than moving and filling a barrel.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Tom on October 16, 2012, 09:05:51 PM
Dave, I was thinking that repurposing a clutched fan from a small automotive application would work. Perhaps a water pump would also work for the bearings and mount? I don't think it would hurt to run one dry.

TPXX, that was I that made that suggestion, but after it was made I went and looked and all the attic fans are pretty big, about 10x bigger than needed to cool a Listeroid. If you do a search on snap switch on this board, you'll find where you can get some thermostatic AC switches that will work great for a small ac fan.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: BruceM on October 16, 2012, 10:21:50 PM
An attic fan is beyond gross overkill, think of the starting surge, then think about finding 3 small AC muffin fans instead. (Ronmar's idea which I like.) Then if one fails, you're still fine.  jpmarlin.com used to have some surplus ones cheap. You only need the smallest air movement.


 
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: ronmar on October 16, 2012, 10:53:13 PM
Yep, shrouded properly to get airflow thru the entire radiator core, you really do not need much airflow to cool a 6/1 at full load.

This is a 6/1 we are talking about isn't it? 
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: fabricator on October 17, 2012, 12:51:46 AM
My 8/1 turns a 24 volt alternator so I got a 24 volt electric fan, it's controlled by a simple HVAC type aquastat in the hot radiator line.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: LowGear on October 17, 2012, 04:05:18 AM
I keep telling you people!  Computer 12 Volt 5-10 watt fans pull tied to the radiator.  Keep that fan noise to a minimum.

Leading them to the water is the easy part.  Getting them to believe it's there to cool the diesel engine and not to drink is the tricky part.

Casey
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Quinnf on October 17, 2012, 05:28:21 AM
Anybody care to recommend a thermal switch for the fan?  I sort of am at that stage in my project.

Quinn
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: TPXX on October 17, 2012, 01:09:58 PM
No I have a 12/2 engine with a 7.5kw st head. I don't have an alternator but could add one to drive a 12v fan say from a computer?? lol I have access to a bunch of those. But do I just let them run or have some sort of thermostat. Still looking for more info on snap switches.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: 38ac on October 17, 2012, 02:54:15 PM
Anybody care to recommend a thermal switch for the fan?  I sort of am at that stage in my project.

Quinn

About all the cars these days have a temp sensor that could be used the problem is the threads are often something you wont easily find a tap for and they are often set for temps too hot for my liking. I have gotten a couple of them from Jegs since they are right around the corner from the office. If I did the link right they should come up there are several temp ranges.   http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/KeywordSearchCmd?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&langId=-1&Ntk=all&Jnar=0&Ne=1%2B2%2B3%2B13%2B1147708&searchTerm=fan+swith

You cant run the fan directly from the sensor, you will need a small relay to handle the amps. 
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: TPXX on October 17, 2012, 03:13:05 PM
OK I see the temp control switches but it brings to question, what is the proper operating temp for our engines? I have to get the thermostats for my 12/2 as well as know when to have the fan kick in. I guess the fan should come on at a slightly higher temp than the thermostats themselves.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: 38ac on October 17, 2012, 03:39:27 PM
I like the ones that cut in at 190. Some say there is gain from running hotter but I am not a fan of running that.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Quinnf on October 17, 2012, 05:38:35 PM
Just found the motherload of all temperature snap switches on eBay.  Cheap from China with free shipping.  Any temperature you want.  I want to sense temperature at the radiator water inilet, so want some sort of clamp-on, or something I can modify that doesn't require a threaded fitting.  A snap switch is simple, reliable and cheap.  Trying to keep electronics to a minimum.  I went for a 90C switch.

quinn
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Tom on October 17, 2012, 06:59:25 PM
I used one of these for my coolant pump, will work for a fan too. http://www.senasys.com/shop/products-page/500-inch-radius-pipe-mount/2570f211/ (http://www.senasys.com/shop/products-page/500-inch-radius-pipe-mount/2570f211/)

(http://www.senasys.com/shop/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/500Radius.jpg)
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: BruceM on October 17, 2012, 08:25:01 PM
That's a gem, Tom.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: t19 on October 17, 2012, 10:51:46 PM
Sweet looking switch... would work great for my fan
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: bandmiller2 on October 20, 2012, 01:11:34 AM
Would probibly be good form to have a backup say a 180 degree and a 190 degree,redundency is good on any backup power installation. Frank C.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: ronmar on October 20, 2012, 04:14:24 AM
Yep, and with inexpensive snap switches, redundancy is easy, either two of the same in parallel on the same circuit, or with computer fans, you can have them come on in stages...  Most snap switches are designed for switching AC current. But again with computer fans, you switch the AC feeding small DC supplies powering the fans, and you use the AC already provided by the generator, no need for a separate alternator...

As for runnig temp, diesels like being run hot.  It aids in fuel atomization/more complete combustion and the engine runs more efficiently.   I would reccomend a 190F - 195F thermostat.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Mucke on October 20, 2012, 02:20:26 PM
hallo all,

I used the air the very flywheel generates ,
Just build a housing around it and lead the air up to the radiator.
Must fit around the shaft on engine sice and leave 20 cm open in the center of the wheel outside.
Plenty air !

Rolf

Ah, by the way :
Anybody has the torque value for the studs of a 12/1 handy?

Thanks
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: LowGear on October 20, 2012, 07:56:16 PM
Aloha ronmar,

Quote
with computer fans, you can have them come on in stages...  Most snap switches are designed for switching AC current. But again with computer fans, you switch the AC feeding small DC supplies powering the fans, and you use the AC already provided by the generator, no need for a separate alternator...

This world has so many toads and so few frog princes - Thank you.  This is a step up on my near fatal attraction for computer fans.  Hmmmmm, I've got a bunch of those wall socket DC (Watch-Out some be AC) power supplies.  This weekend's Mr. Science project.  9 to 15 volts should be close enough.  Was anyone else thinking speed control?

Casey
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: fabricator on October 21, 2012, 01:35:52 AM
Let's not get all carried away here folks, remember these things in a previous incarnation ran for thousands and thousands of hours with no fan or radiator, I put the 24 volt fan on mine with the radiator mounted outside and it rarely comes on, even in the summer, my radiator is a big four core unit out of a Chevy camper van.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Quinnf on October 22, 2012, 03:44:32 PM
Depends on the installation.  Some of us used smaller radiators for one reason or another, which require some sort of fan, even if it's just a computer muffin fan.  I have a Geo Metro radiator mounted to two studs on the inside of the groj wall.  Breathing through the stud cavity, I might be able to get it to draw by bending up some sheet metal, but the engine's running a genny anyway, and anytime the engine's running there's beaucoup (a technical term) power to run a muffin fan or three.   

Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: Tom on October 22, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
Another thought, the generator has a fan in it that will be turning anyway. Why not mount the generator high and use that airflow ducted through a radiator???
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: LowGear on October 22, 2012, 06:42:57 PM
Have we discussed the venturi effect air flow systems from the exhaust.  The looked pretty interesting in previous threads.

Casey
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on October 24, 2012, 11:19:49 PM
If I recall correctly from the distant past...
Bruce had his radiator inside a kind of convective chimney so the hot air above the radiator would rise, pulling cool air in?
Natural draft would be nice, the energy is free (after you do all the work figuring it out and building it)
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: BruceM on October 24, 2012, 11:48:18 PM
No, my cooling system is not a convection system, though I'm sure that approach would also work with even a geo metro size radiator with an 8 foot above the radiator, at least 12" diameter stack.  It takes a pretty tall column got get much airflow by convection, and it has to be pretty big ID as the air pressure differential isn't going to be all that much on a hot day.

I used the Rumely oil pull tractor system of inducing a draft through the radiator by using the exhaust within a larger duct to pull a large volume of air behind it.  With this approach, you could probably go as small as 6" duct, though I used 8" as I had a bunch on hand.  You can also have the duct run in any direction.  Mine just happened to point upwards, so there was much confusion as people thought convection was involved.  It's not.

Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: overbore on October 29, 2012, 03:55:41 PM
Tom: Many thanks as I just ordered two switches which will be placed in series so I have and anticipator and topping set up for my three speed fan in a venturi box.

Laus Deo
overbore
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: LowGear on October 29, 2012, 06:00:11 PM
Don't you mean parallel?

If the left don't get you the right one will.

Casey
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: fabricator on October 29, 2012, 11:08:21 PM
Yep, gotta be parallel, if one goes out series they are both out.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 03:58:18 AM
I am using my radiator and a section of exhaust pipe for my 6/1 Metro to heat my cinderblock workshop. The workshop is insulated outside of the block for thermal mass, except in this early photo of the beginning engine installation. The engine is loosely enclosed in a wood and stone enclosure outside of the masonry shed.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7668)

I live in southern Vermont where we can expect at least a few days each winter to reach -25 C, and generally have snow on the ground December to March, so I like to use the engine heat.

The radiator is angled to allow air to convect up through it -- I haven't needed a radiator fan in winter. Haven't run the engine much in summer, but I could rig a second circuit to another radiator outdoors if I did. The energy cost is much lower to run in winter, though because the heat is useful instead of wasted. Maybe some day I will rig a pre-heater for domestic hot water, and summer usage would make more sense.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7672)

The exhaust pipe also routes through the shop. (I do have a monoxide alarm rigged as well).

I flame welded a pipe nipple to a section of flex exhaust to make the connection through the wall. It heats up the shop very quickly, and the block retains the heat well once it heats up, too.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7670)

I just fired it up for the first time this year, and got a bunch of fiberglass coming out of the gen head so did a panic stop. A mouse had got in there and made a nest from house insulation material. Luckily there were no chewed wires. Man I hate rodents!

Anyway, thought you'd be interested in this cooling system. Oh I also have a thermostat on the Metro, built from pipe fittings -- I did a thread here on the forum when I built that.



Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: dieselgman on November 16, 2012, 07:10:08 AM
Nice pictures! I understand about the darned rodents! They are constantly giving us trouble in our Kansas shop because they love to crawl into manifolds and cowlings. We have to keep all openings plugged.

dieselgman
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: 38ac on November 16, 2012, 12:57:44 PM
Know what you mean. Since I haven't run the SL1 for a while I grabbed the flywheel as I walked by it this week and to my horrers it wouldn't budge :o 
Thiinking the worst I rocked it some and it began to move but was making a wierd crunching noise,, flywheel shroud was full of dogfood. Funny thing is there is no dogfood kept in the shop and closest I  know of is across the street??
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 01:45:34 PM
Thanks Dieselgman, and 38ac. Dog food seizure! that's funny  :D Better than the real kind I guess, so a happy ending.

The worst part about the mice and metal is the corrosion they cause. They built a nest in a drawer with my lathe chucks and other accessories when I hadn't used the lathe for a couple months. The 4 jaw chuck, angle blocks, 123 blocks, Jacobs chucks and a bunch of other stuff were covered in used mouse bedding, and everything rusted and corroded where they were.

They also chewed the spigot off of two plastic gasoline cans in the barn last winter, and chewed up the plastic pistol grip on the garden hose. They seem to like some kinds of plastic. They love to make swiss cheese out of a nicely folded tarp, and they build nests in the air cleaners of our cars -- even though we use them regularly.

They get inside the instrument panel of my '51 John Deere Model M tractor if it sits a week anywhere, once ate the insulation off the ignition switch wires, and have been known to jump out of the cast iron panel and run across my lap when I start it. Gotta remember to stay calm when that happens and not pop the clutch and abandon ship! I'm not afraid of mice, but it's startling when you don't expect it and pull the starter knob and something furry comes out of the engine right at you. Little boogers!

Back to cooling. I figured the angled radiator would move both the air and the hot water by siphoning and convection. While making it vertical or horizontal would only do one or the other.It seems to work well -- at least for wintercooling/heating. It isn't clear in the picture probably, but the radiator also angles in it's own plane so that the radiator cap is at the highest point. And i have a coolant recovery bottle that you don't see in the photos.

I also insulated the upward going hot water hose from the engine to the radiator, but left the return uninsulated. The photo of the engine above shows the pipe fitting thermostat on the right, but the hose connections hadn't been made yet. The spots on the paint were from a little concrete water when I poured the retaining wall in front of the engine (spots cleaned off later) that holds the gravel and railroad ties the engine bearer is bolted to. All of that stuff is on top of a horse stable pad, and that in turn is on top of a concrete slab. Maybe that is confusing. It goes like this: Concrete slab, horse pad, sand gravel mix. And embedded in the gravel are railroad ties.

Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: bschwartz on November 16, 2012, 01:50:09 PM
This is the firs picture I can remember of an engine mounted outside a workshop with the exhaust plumbed INSIDE!!  ;D
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 02:43:59 PM
This is the firs picture I can remember of an engine mounted outside a workshop with the exhaust plumbed INSIDE!!  ;D

I got the idea from my old 1300 VW Beetle.  :D  I was actually  thinking of casting an aluminum finned cuff to extract even more, but I shot the pipe with an IR thermometer along its length, and was getting enough out of it, as is.

Maybe I should put in a gate valve and stub nipple to de-mouse the shop when I'm not there!
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: ronmar on November 16, 2012, 03:05:34 PM
Yep, had a mouse in my St-5 also.  Added expanded metal mesh to the lower air vents next to the pully to keep them out once I cleaned it out.

They also seem to love my sears garden tractor engine(27HP vanguard).  They get up into the engine and make a nest in the middle of the flywheel blower.  I have on occasion missed the visual inspection and started the engine with the nest intact, and had wounded mice exiting the trator rapidly, and mouse parts all thru the engine:(  Big mess...  Just walked by it and found there is a new nest there right now, so I left the hood up to remind me to remove it before I start it... 
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 03:24:22 PM
More photos in case they are useful to somebody.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7674)

Turning adapters to go from engine's heater hose to larger diameter automotive radiator hose -- 1-1/4" pipe nipples chucked and turned.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7676)

Finished pipe nipples from 3/4" and 1-1/4" pipe. Automotive radiator hose for size comparison.

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7678)

Assembled adapters using 3/4" to 1-1/4" pipe reducers.




Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: 38ac on November 16, 2012, 03:27:19 PM
More photos in case they are useful to somebody.

D-I-Y always useful!!
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
One more then, 38ac....

(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7680)

Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: deeiche on November 16, 2012, 05:23:21 PM
just be careful you clean up all the tools and whatever the mouse made bedding around.

this caution comes from a person who lives in the general area where hantavirus was first discovered.
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: xyzer on November 16, 2012, 09:14:23 PM
Vt,
I have used the tilted radiator technique and found it work well at dissipating heat without a fan well even outside on warm days. I didn't see any provisions for enlarging the water reservoir in the upper tank. The problem with automotive radiators is there inability to have a reserve capacity of holding reserve water above the thermo siphon system. If the water level drops below the upper hose the thermo siphon is broken and it will go critical very fast. The original thermo siphon  radiators had a large upper tank to hold extra water. When they started using water pumps this became uneasy. To keep the rats out I wrapped the opening in the gen head with hardware cloth. Seems to work other than a wasp may find a home in there but the fan will digest them ;D   
Title: Re: Engine cooling
Post by: vtmetro on November 16, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
Thanks deeiche we do the best we can, and certainly I cleaned my lathe tools, but mice are a fact of life around here -- hay fields and 67 acres of woods breeds millions. We set traps, but it is more temporary control than total elimination.

Something will get me in the end, anyway. I'm too old by now to die young.

xyzer -- Thanks, good point. I do have a quart coolant recovery bottle above the top of the radiator cap. It isn't shown in the photos because they were taken a couple years ago while I was still putting it all together.

Definitely will be adding hardware cloth to the gen head opening on the bottom below the pulley where it wasn't screened. Didn't notice that one.