Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: OKFarmer on July 13, 2012, 04:10:35 AM
-
Making some Progress on the Kirloskar 8/1 with ST5 project.
I laid out and tacked together the subframe. It's from 2" x 3" thick wall. Dimensions are 20" x 60". I also cut out 2 20" x 20" plates from 3/16" material for bases.
Here's a pic of the frame:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/83c01e68.jpg)
Here is pic of the plate laying on the frame:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/a29d6f43.jpg)
Here is a pic with the ST5 genny sitting on the frame for some measurements:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/66a634c7.jpg)
I also got the lister off of the crates and packing. I started her for a second just sitting on the shop floor. It scooted a little but would pretty much just sit there and pop...pop...pop away.
It looks as though for belt clearance, unless I build up a base to bolt to, I am going to have to offset the engine and genny head to one side of the frame. Allowing the flywheel and generator pully to hang over the side. Anyone have any thoughts on this or anything you see in the pics?
One last pic of her on the floor with no packing (this pic also shows my air filter mod):
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/f177ba4d.jpg)
-
Looking good! I believe there should be clearance for your belt/s, but most setups I have looked at have the flywheels in the clear, narrow baseplates.
dieselgman
-
If I may offer a suggestion, well even if I may not here it is. ;) You might want to add a couple of length's of 3" channel or 1/4" angle iron under the engine mounting plate. Position the braces so that the mounting bolts for the engine go through additional bracing. This will prevent the engine from acting like a 800 lb drum stick on the mounting plate.
-
I can remake the frame pretty easily to be more narrow. Or I may just offset the gen head drive side to hang past the side.
Tom, I get what you are saying. I think my engine will acually straddle one of the crossmembers that is already there. I'm going to slide the plate on the engine end of the sled more toward the center making the plate centered on the that next cross member. I can run a piece of angle under the edges of the plate for some additional rigidity. Didn't think about that engine flexing a 20 x 20 x 3/16 piece that is wleded all the way around.
Question: Facing the flywheel on the injector pump side of the engine would you locate the head on the left or right of the engine. I notice in a LOT of the pics everyone always puts the head to the right, but that is where the radiator will be above the head. Water and electricity don't go well together so I was thinking put the head to the left (exhasut and intake side).
Thoughts?
-
I can remake the frame pretty easily to be more narrow. Or I may just offset the gen head drive side to hang past the side.
Tom, I get what you are saying. I think my engine will acually straddle one of the crossmembers that is already there. I'm going to slide the plate on the engine end of the sled more toward the center making the plate centered on the that next cross member. I can run a piece of angle under the edges of the plate for some additional rigidity. Didn't think about that engine flexing a 20 x 20 x 3/16 piece that is wleded all the way around.
Straddling the crossmember is no good. The feet on the casting are probably lower than the rest of the base, so the engine forces will still be applied to sheetmetal. Thicker sheetmetal, but still sheetmetal. You realy need the mount bolts to pass thru structural steel...
Question: Facing the flywheel on the injector pump side of the engine would you locate the head on the left or right of the engine. I notice in a LOT of the pics everyone always puts the head to the right, but that is where the radiator will be above the head. Water and electricity don't go well together so I was thinking put the head to the left (exhasut and intake side).
Thoughts?
When viewing as you describe, from the IP side, I would put the generator head to the left(intake/exhaust port side). The reason for this is that the crankcase access port is on the other side(coolant port side of the engine). Any engine work, such as a teardown means accessing that cover to get to the crank. Way easy setting on a bucket in front of an easilly accessed door. Not so easy having to lean in over the top of the generator case. The coolant ports are also on that side. Imagine a coolant leak over the top of your generator head? The crankcase vent is also in that crankcase access door. It will puff combustion gas and oil vapor, which is probably something best kept separated from the generator head.
I would also reccomend a 12" tall concrete mounting baseblock under your frame. Getting the frame up off the ground about a foot makes working on things SOO much easier. It also makes starting a lot easier. I did all my overhaul and balancing work with the frame on the garage floor. I mounted the frame up on top of about a 10" thick concrete step pad I recycled. Night and day difference in ease of starting and maintenance with just 10" of vertical repositioning...
-
+1 and +1 on what Ronmar said. Here is how I did my frame and base.
(http://programmertom.com/lister/EngRoom.jpg)
Also you might want to fill those steel tubes with concrete for some additional rigidity.
-
Tom and Ronmar, Already planning the concrete block. Ineteresting use of the timbers. I've thought about the same thing my theory being the wood would absorb some of the thump. As the wood compresses do you have to keep tightening bolts?
I understand you both on bolting to structural. I'll be sure and add what I need to do that.
Very clean installation Tom! I'm impressed and inspired! I think I may narrow up my sled to fit between the flywheels. It will just look/work better.
-
My temporary wood test base is still going strong after over 6 years and 2300 hrs. (Metro 6/1 driving ST-3 and air compressor). Balancing the engine makes all the difference, I think. My engine is attached via long lag screws, and no, I haven't had to tighten them since the 200 hr mark.
I'd rather have a nice steel base if one was given to me, but am not in a hurry to replace something that works OK and seems to be holding up just fine. I really like Tom's steel clad- wood beam design, also.
-
Inspired is good! The tie down bolts were tightened a couple of times during the first year/200 hours of operation. Since then they have been plenty tight every time they've been checked.
-
So I will be putting the 8/1 in the middle of the sled. Radiator to the right. Gen head to the left. Never the two shall meet.
Below I have attached a photo. It's kind of a hybrid of Tom's sled, and Bruce's "temporary" mounting base. I placed two heavy 3" angle irons across the middle section. Inside those and the section of the frame they parallel I have placed 4 x 4 timbers. do I cap them with steel? Or let the lister sit directly on the timbers and "settle" in. I'll have a lag coming from the angle iron below, through them timber, then through the lister. I will tighten the lister down to the timbers with double nuts that I can tighten as it settles a little. If the timbers become worn or decompose I can replace them by picking the lister up.
There are red x's where the holes would be in the timbers.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/fe9b89c2.jpg)
-
Any thoughts on the timber steel hybrid? Should I cap the timber in steel too? Or set the lister directly on the timber?
-
Well, I'd cap it with steel. It will spread the torque over the surface of the wood and minimize settling. This depends a bit what kind of wood you are using too. With a good solid wood like oak probably not necessary, with doug fir maybe more so.
One of the things I did which may or may not be necessary is to run carriage bolts up through the bottom of the frame. That way if one of the nuts came loose, at least the engine is still pinned in place. On my frame the carriage bolts just go through the channel iron. There is a dimple in the timber underneath the bolt to capture it.
My engine was initially used to power the construction of our home. While it was doing that job the frame was lag bolted to some redwood logs as skids since it was not on a permanent base.
-
+1 for Tom's advice. Your Doug Fir beam looks adequate, but a steel cap would be nice and also sturdier. I didn't only because I never expected to use my wood base as a permanent fixture.
-
So how is this looking?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/29e8c703.jpg)
-
So how is this looking?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/29e8c703.jpg)
Like text. :)
-
Making some progress. Going to stitch it all together permanently now:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/ff064c9f.jpg)
-
Looking good!
That will keep her stationary! :D
dieselgman
-
+1 on da gman
-
I put the frame down on the shop floor tonight and set the 8/1 on it and tightened up the nuts. I started her up. No hopping. But it does want to scoot around unless I stand on the frame. I shut her down and did a test. I can scoot it around myself. The metal on concrete is like a sled runner. So it may not be that bad once the sled is bolted to something, but I did think it would be more stable than that. I'm sure outside in the dirt it would've just sat there, but don't know.
Any thoughts?
dieselgman, weren't these KOEL's supposed to be pretty smooth? Somewhat ready to go? I see holes drilled into the flywheel and weights hammered in. So someone made some attempt at balance.
-
Also tonight when I got home from work I find the family sitting in the dark. It's 111 out and the power has been off for 45 minutes. I call the power company and report it, shut the appropriate breakers off in the breaker box, and go out and start the 10kW welder, then throw the transfer switch. With this combination of breakers I can run the main floor central air.
Three hours later the rural cooperative comes back on. Twenty minutes after that a VERY small thunderstorm rolls through. And BAM the power is back off again. This time for two hours. So back to the generator. Set the breakers. Throw the transfer switch. Ugh!!!!!
We are back on the cooperative and did get a MUCH needed .4" of rain.
I bought the 8/1 and 5kW as a bit of test. I'll use to pump a well and run the shop when the cooperative is down. I know that when it is 111 out I HAVE to be able to run some AC. So I know if I build up one of these rigs to replace the welder I am going to have to have 12-15kW capability. This all electric home is a hog for power. It would take some significant modification to heat water off of a lister-type. I can easily generate and have a huge barn to build a power generation room in that is right next to the cooperative's pole and my switch. Am I still jumping in the right direction if I go that big?
Frustrated with the cooperative!!!!!!!!!!!
-
We ran them on the pallet bottoms and all seemed pretty smooth. Still could always take some fine tuning and finer balancing though, no doubt.
Any rotating mass will tend to move around on a slippery surface... rpm also makes a difference, you may find it smoother at different speeds.
dieselgman
-
Sounds like you are getting a lot of justification to go self-sufficient for your power plant. Whether or not the Lister clone is the "right direction", depends a lot on your personal objectives, abilities, time involvements, and many other variables of course. I can offer that you should be able to run a 15kW head from one of the large twins - 30/2, and service that power hog house with a margin for overloads.
dieselgman
-
I have a GTC 20/2 down rated to 850 rpm (I estimated 17 to 18 hp at this rpm) hooked to an ST 15 generator head. I know the generator head is over kill but it lives a happy life at the the prime movers maximum output at 11,200 watts. If I ran the 20/2 at 1000 rpm, which I could do, since I have a Mike Montieth two step pulley on the ST head, then I could get closer to 15 kW the generator head capability. This is my south Florida hurricane plan for operations.
I also have an all electric house with a well 2 HP well pump for the horses, etc. Here is what I did. I removed the 4,500 watt top and 4,500 watt bottom heating element from my 80 gallon electric hot water heater. When one of these heater elements came on, about 50% of my generator capacity got blown, to say nothing of the electric cloths dryer. I replaced the top one with a 1,750 Watt and the bottom with a 1,500 watt. Instead of 62 gallons of hot water heated every hour, it now takes 7 hours to heat all 80 gallons. This is not a problem for our usage patten. My 20/2 has no problem starting and running a downstairs 2 ton AC unit, a 2 1/2 ton upstairs AC unit, well pump, washer, TV, two large refrigerators, one small office unit and a patio deep freezer, plus all the usual small stuff. If the wife wants to run the electric dryer, one of the AC units must be disabled. The most critical thing for me was changing out those duel 4,500 watt hot water heater elements.
Now at night while everyone is sleeping. I engage a Metro 6/1 running at 800 rpm hooked to 7.5 ST. Overkill on the generator head again but it too lives a happy life. This results in about 4,000 watts but it does well in the 3,000 watt range. I run night time lights, TV, fan and ONE AC system with the hot water heater turned off. The generator can start the well pump and fill the pressure tank but it is at its maximum. Well this is how I did it.
-
Incredibly GREAT information Horsepoor!!!!
Your house sounds just like mine! Almost exactly!!
Well it sounds like I will continue on my journey based on what Dieselgman has said, and you have said. I'll have an 8/1 with an ST5 for overnights. And a 20/2 or 30/2 for the heavey stuff. I had read your hot water tank story on here somewhere else. Glad you reminded me again here. I'll look into the lighter elements. A guy could just keep the 1750's on hand and swap out when needed (long-term generation). That doesn't take 10 minutes to do. Hmmmm.......
My power hogs are dryer, range top, oven, hot water tank, heat grids in central heat sides of the units, then compressor/air handlers in the units. I can, and often do, heat with wood in the winter though.
-
I put the frame down on the shop floor tonight and set the 8/1 on it and tightened up the nuts. I started her up. No hopping. But it does want to scoot around unless I stand on the frame. I shut her down and did a test. I can scoot it around myself. The metal on concrete is like a sled runner. So it may not be that bad once the sled is bolted to something, but I did think it would be more stable than that. I'm sure outside in the dirt it would've just sat there, but don't know.
Any thoughts?
dieselgman, weren't these KOEL's supposed to be pretty smooth? Somewhat ready to go? I see holes drilled into the flywheel and weights hammered in. So someone made some attempt at balance.
OK....sounds like you have a well behaved setup. I have gone through the same drill with 2 6/1's that when pulled from the crate would rattle my 6,000# tractor with the loader holding the frame in position. You will get the sliding or hopping with the steel on concrete. After balancing my two 6/1's I found there is a transition from hopping to sliding and the sweet spot with no movement was impossable to achieve. I have never got my frames to be perfectly flat after welding and my concrete floors are another story. In my book and the way you describe it you are very well balanced. The way it behaves will change slightly when you put a load on it. I bet if you slip some rubber pads between the floor and frame all will be good! 3 points is a plus. Mine do great on dirt or grass but cement if not shimmed right will move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QmWXNo-Gmg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxPXGn6BWo&feature=relmfu
-
Correction: I used a 1500 watt element for the top and a 1250 watt element for the bottom in the hot water heater. It takes 3 hrs to reheat the top 40 gallons to 120F and 4 more hours to reheat the bottom 40 gallons. Works fine for us during emergency operations. If fact, I leave the small elements installed all year. Works fine for us.
Next, switch off the 50A electric range and oven. Hello microwave or BBQ grill.
I like the 20/2 down rated to 850 rpm (estimated 17 to 18 hp), which keeps the generator head loaded up during the hot south Florida days to around 5K to 8K, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. Diesels ideally need to be loaded at about 80% when possible. I switch over to the twin around 0700 hrs, engage the hot water heater and second AC unit, and announce the laundry room is now open. This continues until late in the evening when all family members who are in the evacuation zones are ready for bed (i.e. 2200 hrs). The Metro at 800 rpm can handle one 2 1/2 ton AC unit (soft start CAPs), TV, minimal night time lights, refrigerators, and an occasional water pump start. Next time I will probably keep the water pump off. I have a 60 gallon pressure tank, that's a lot of toilet flushes, and showers will just have to wait for the day shift twin.
I suggestion you consider a down rated 20/2 or a 16/2 for your prime mover. Especially, if your needs are in the winter. I have been reading about these 16/1s and other big single cylinder tumpers with great interest. The simplicity of the singles is nice.
-
XYZer, I love your electric start setup. Do you have the starter part number and where you got the rubber wheel and part number? I can fab something similiar. Very clean slick setups. Most impressive! What is the story on your copper tanks? Do you play in copper? They are very sharp looking!
Horsepoor, that is what we do is shut the ranges off and use the microwave and grill/smoker. 1500watt and 1250watt noted! You have any pics of your setups?
Appreciate all the help, affirmations, and ideas everyone!
OKFarmer
-
OK,
I used a GM smallblock starter and not sure which one but they made millions of them. I removed the Bendix and adapted the rubber wheel I got from McMaster Carr. I would have to do a bit of looking to find a p/n. I fabricated a new nose piece like the picture below. I bought a bunch off copper off eBay before it got expensive and found it easy to work with before I owned a tig welder. I had access to a shear and brake at the time, they were easy to make or fix. But no I don't work in copper but do play ;D. Actually I work for a living with Tungsten ,Tantalum, and Molybdenum.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/12VSTARTER1.jpg)
-
Dave, I really like your starter nose-piece design with the outboard shaft/roller support. It's a gem.
-
Thanks Bruce!....I had a heck of a time mounting the starter.....I did it way after I was done building the frames. I have 2 frames..One for the motor and generator and then resiliently mounted to another. I mounted the starter on the base frame so it didn't shake or rattle if I had mounted it to the engine frame...worked fine but the next time I am going to mount it to the engine frame...
-
OKfarmer,
I have a couple old (last year) videos narrated by my friend (Listerboy). Several modifications have been made since then and I cleaned things up but these videos will give a good feel for my setups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HYakTZnypA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HYakTZnypA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToXLQTXQ3qI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToXLQTXQ3qI)
This is Bob's 16/2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7hAUK6WFaY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7hAUK6WFaY)
-
OK,
I used a GM smallblock starter and not sure which one but they made millions of them. I removed the Bendix and adapted the rubber wheel I got from McMaster Carr. I would have to do a bit of looking to find a p/n. I fabricated a new nose piece like the picture below. I bought a bunch off copper off eBay before it got expensive and found it easy to work with before I owned a tig welder. I had access to a shear and brake at the time, they were easy to make or fix. But no I don't work in copper but do play ;D. Actually I work for a living with Tungsten ,Tantalum, and Molybdenum.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/12VSTARTER1.jpg)
I see kit starter potential here-wihout copper any thoughts on your well executed starter???
Congrats.
Overbore
-
I too am very impressed with that starter modification! That looks like something worthy of mass-production, at least in a limited sense.
Ready to go into business? Kudos!
dieselgman
-
**Edited to fix video link**
Picked up a starter today, and ordered the pulley.
I tried setting the sled on some rubber mats as XYZer suggested. Bad idea. Initially it took the slide out of it until it reached full rpm then it began to hop about 1" on each power stroke. Then I tried a piece of plywood. No go. Then I put a piece of hardi-backer under the sled on got this result:
http://youtu.be/p1aX4cSHb1k
Pretty tame.
So here's another question: I don't have the top steel plates on the blocks, but I will put them in there. Anyway, do you guys see a problem the way the casting is sitting there? Is there enough casting contacting the surface of the block?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/7a78f599.jpg)
Thoughts?
I'm ready to work on then genny head mounting now. I have a radiator setting the shop that I think will work. Are the ports for cooling in these heads 1" pipe thread????
-
You may have to spend an afternoon playing with the stick on weights on the flywheels to get it settled down. ;)
I have seen both U.S. and Brittish pipe threads on the blocks and cant remember which the KOEL is but I was thinking it stated on the plastic plugs? Even though there is a 1/2 thread pitch differance in the British pipe thread I have not had troubles getting our pipe to seal when using a quality dope.
-
38ac, Check my video. I fixed it. What do you think?
-
The rubber mat wasn't a bad idea. It's what you need to get the engine balanced.
Hopping 1 inch on the rubber mat at operating speed tells you what you need to know- you badly need to adjust your balance. A solid enough base will allow you to run a very unbalanced engine, but the stresses are still there. Put it back on the rubber mat and fix the balance. (Start balancing via Mr. X method with reduced speed so that it's just starting to hop. Just get the engine settled down adequately at operating rpm; don't bother with perfection at this point.
When you are done with your base assembly and generator install on the base, then you can do the final balancing with your "typical" load, again on the rubber mat.
I agree with your concern about the small bearing surface on the wood for your engine base. I'd want a broader bearing area on Douglas fir. Your steel plate should solve that.
-
BruceM, not sure I agree. If one had enough weight (be it counter weights on crank, or a side loaded flywheel) to counter act the down force of the power stroke would you not have a 0 HP engine?
I get it that it could be out side to side, but any slow turning single cylinder will hop on rubber won't it?
-
BruceM, not sure I agree. If one had enough weight (be it counter weights on crank, or a side loaded flywheel) to counter act the down force of the power stroke would you not have a 0 HP engine?
I get it that it could be out side to side, but any slow turning single cylinder will hop on rubber won't it?
OK
If you add the weight of the piston and rod opposite the piston and rod you will get an extreme slider. The weight you added will work against you when it is 90deg to the piston travel. I guess I misunderstood your post when you said you could put your foot on it and it stayed in place. If it was under load and running at 60Hz and you could stop the sliding with your foot the rubber would work. Evidently you weren't under load and at RPM. A balanced single cylinder with a cast iron piston in never "balanced" but is a compromise. If you added an opposing cylinder and piston it would make it easy.
-
OK
If you add the weight of the piston and rod opposite the piston and rod you will get an extreme slider. The weight you added will work against you when it is 90deg to the piston travel. I guess I misunderstood your post when you said you could put your foot on it and it stayed in place. If it was under load and running at 60Hz and you could stop the sliding with your foot the rubber would work. Evidently you weren't under load and at RPM. A balanced single cylinder with a cast iron piston in never "balanced" but is a compromise. If you added an opposing cylinder and piston it would make it easy.
I 100% agree with the above statement. It was under no load bolted to a steel frame just sitting directy on concrete. The steel frame to concrete was so slick I could push the farme and engine around with ease. When I set the frame on a piece of hardy-backer (tile board) instead of just on the concrete (not bolted to anything) she stayed right there and chugged away. I feel like after that test I am happy with balance.
With the same exact setup just setting on a rubber mat, hop, hop, hop......
-
No, a well balanced listeroid will not hop up and down an inch on a rubber mat. In fact you should be able to put a cup of water on the valve cover, have it stay in place and see just a small amount of rippling. These engines can be pretty sweet, smooth runners despite the single cylinder, and without much work.
My 650 rpm Metro 6/1 Listeroid is mounted on a Douglas Fir wood frame on rubber pads. Before balancing via the Mr X method, installed and under load it vibrated the whole engine shed with 10" of concrete under the engine area (monopour 10x12) before balancing, despite the 1" rubber pads under the frame. (Scored and gorilla glued in place.) I was surprised at this as previous runs of just the wood frame sitting on a concrete walkway showed it to be just a bit of a "walker". I read about the Mr X method on this forum and then tried it with much success.
I did the final balance under load with a cup of water on the valve cover as an visual indicator.
If you're happy with it as is, great. You can always balance it better later if you need to. A rubber mat or some carpet scraps under the frame or pallet is required for the Mr. X method...some movement must be allowed.
My hat's off to Mr X, wherever he may be.
-
BruceM, I need to read more on the Mr X method. With mine bolted to the frame, and the frame just sitting on the hardi-board I could have set the water on the valve-cover. I know my shop floor isn't perfectly level, and it did slide an inch while running (you can see it isn't square on that little pice of hardi-board in the video) but I think it was because of the unleveleness of the floor.
After I get her bolted down and under load I will see how she behaves. I've seen MANY references and Interpretations of the Mr X method, but not the method itself. Do you have a link?
Thanks for all your help!!
-
The archives seem to have been deleted on this forum. The Mr. X method (aka flywheel chalking) has been discussed many, many times but a search comes up with a blank. Good grief.
Let me see if I can find another reference to it for you.
Sounds like you might just wait and see how it feels once you're done and can do load testing. There's no point in fighting with success!
-
Later today the same search finds some results back as far as 2006, though not the original thread. Bit of a server glitch, I guess.
Do a search or balancing and/or Mr X when the server is cooperating and you'll find plenty of reading. It's a popular topic and many approaches.
The basics of the Mr X method: Run the engine on a skid over rubber mat or some carpet scraps to allow some movement. Use a rod or some other support in a bucket of rocks or dirt as a brace for a felt tip pen. Start and slowly move the pen in to mark the flywheel. Stop, add 4 oz of clay inside the flywheel rim opposite the mark and about 7 inches leading the center of the mark in the direction of rotation. (That's about right for a 24 inch flywheel at 650 rpm, YMMV.) Now wipe off the mark with a rag and some alcohol. You can then do the other flywheel. Repeat, alternating flywheels, until the marks start getting very long and/or you feel you aren't making much improvement. Ronmar suggests a dial gauge at that point for further fine tuning. Some of us go to trial and error placement "round the clock" at that point to see if the running smoothness can be improved. A typical load is recommended at least for the fine tuning. I tried the dial gauge, and yes, it can be helpful, but I thought my feet and a cup of water on the head worked fine too.
The Mr X method alone will tame a bad hopper quickly. After that it's diminishing returns. Don't keep marking if you are getting long marks and/or are "chasing your tail". Three hour increments "around the clock" was what I did for my fine tuning. Only a small improvement at that point.
If a cup of water will stay put on the valve cover, and your feet say it's fine, that's pretty damn good.
-
Been on another trip with the family up into Central Missouri for a few days so not much progress. I want to really hit this hard and get it finished up this week/weekend if I can. We'll see how that goes. For now I have a pic of me setting the mounts to attach the frame to the concrete pad.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/534bc588.jpg)
Here is the center of the sled with the wood blocks in place capped in steal with the anchor bolts passing the through the frame, blocks, and steel caps. Its just awaiting the listeroid to be dropped on and bolted down again.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/1b637411.jpg)
-
Probably overkill, but I'd fill those tubes with concrete. Extra weight and rigidity in the base never hurts.
-
Okay fellas I have made some more progress. I have my generator mount done, and mocked everything up tonight.
Question: Do the ST heads have a direction of rotation? I know rotation matters in 3 phase, but I'm not doing that.
Here is a pic:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/de3730cb.jpg)
The reason I am asking rotation questions is I intended to have the motor flipped around with exhaust and intake on the generator side and water on the other. If I flip my primary mover around I'll run off of the other flywheel, but my rotation will be different.
Another question: Are they too close?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/69fd3f6c.jpg)
Do you see anything else you would change?
I picked up a chrysler minivan radiator today. 1" in/outlet. It's 15" x 18".
-
Pretty sure the ST head can rotate either direction but take a careful look at brush holders and brush alignments in your head in case they are not aligned true to the sliprings.
Shorter belts can likely reduce stretching a little but no real room for an idler/tensioner in that close configuration.
dieselgman
-
The manuals for my ST heads say either direction. One thing you run into with big/little pulleys and V-belt drives is called arc correction factor. What this amounts to is the contact surface area of the smaller pulley. The closer the two are together the less contact there is on the smaller pulley and the more you have to correct for it with the engineering. TotaL HP I am sure you are well within guidelines but one thing youhave to deal with is chirp which is the slowing down and speeding up of the engine each cycle vs the generator shaft wanting to remain steady RPM and slipping the belt. The loads that causes are many times over the HP of the engine. Were me Id space it out a bit but to help with the arc correction factor and the extra belt length is a shock absorber for chirp too.
-
I'm growing frustrated with this engine. I'm reasonably sure it has serious balance issues. I put some 5 foot skids under the sled today and ran the 8/1. It is runniing at roughly 850 rpm and sliding along at and inch or two a minute. When I slow it down to around 600rpm it sits completely still. But between 850 and 600 is a wicked harmonic that makes to hop from side to side. The top of the motor moves from
I'm of coarse doing all this with no load and not tied to the floor. Also when I through the fuel to it by hand from 600 up to 700 or so and let it coast back to 600 it gets wild doing that too, but I think it is passing through that same harmonic.
Does everyone still recommend bolting it down to the concrete and it having some load before attempting to balance?
-
If you're going to do the Mr. X ("wheel chalking") method, you need to put it on a rubber mat or a stack of carpet scraps under your base so there can be some movement. That method won't work bolted to a solid base.
There won't be much change with load, I'd go ahead and get it in the ball park with no load at your desired operating rpm.
-
I'm growing frustrated with this engine. I'm reasonably sure it has serious balance issues. I put some 5 foot skids under the sled today and ran the 8/1. It is runniing at roughly 850 rpm and sliding along at and inch or two a minute. When I slow it down to around 600rpm it sits completely still. But between 850 and 600 is a wicked harmonic that makes to hop from side to side. The top of the motor moves from
I'm of coarse doing all this with no load and not tied to the floor. Also when I through the fuel to it by hand from 600 up to 700 or so and let it coast back to 600 it gets wild doing that too, but I think it is passing through that same harmonic.
Does everyone still recommend bolting it down to the concrete and it having some load before attempting to balance?
I know it's not helpful to say so, but welcome to the world of slow speed single cylinder engines. They all either hop of slide or pirouette. Lots of parts moving in too many directions to easily balance. Sort of like a fat lady in a thong riding a bicycle down a washboard road.
If the flywheel counterweights are too light to counter the forces due to the reciprocating parts (piston/conrod) the engine will hop. If they're too heavy, it will slide back and forth. If the counterweights are of different weights, you'll get a combination of motions and the engine may rock side to side and will slowly pirouette like a ballerina with the tremors. If it's hopping side-side then your flywheels aren't the same. The piston IS aluminum, isn't it? Might want to check that. The 8/1 was designed with an aluminum piston, and I see you do have the right flywheels for that engine. And I also see the cylinder has the external studs, true to the 1950s design. But if they used a cast iron piston in that engine then you'll have balance problems for sure.
I built a flywheel bubble balancer in order to measure the weight of the counterweights in two flywheels. You can search for "bubble balancer" and probably find it. With the balancer you can determine whether the counterbalance weight on the flywheels are different, and by how much. By bolting weight on the light flywheel you should be able to smooth things out. If they're both too heavy, you're S.O.L. unless you want to grind metal off the heavy flywheel web.
Re: rigid vs flexible mounting, that subject has been discussed on the forum extensively with no resolution. I prefer having some flexibility in mounting. Our illustrious Admin, however, takes the opposite tack, and prefers a rigid mount. I think it's possible to have mounts that are too soft, just as I think a totally rigid mount is extreme. You won't find any consensus on the subject here.
You might consider a compromise. Since your engine's sweet spot seems to be 600 rpm, can you live with it there? Do you really need the extra 2 HP?
Quinn
-
Hello OKFarmer,
Worth a check to see that it is not your skids that create the harmonic. Have found with other engines on skids that they can behave very well or very badly depending on the length of the skids and their material. You could try placing strips of resilient material (rubber mat etc.) across under the skids at varying distances and see if this affects the result.
A rigid mounting is a one shot solution, though expensive and permanent. Resilient mounts will always be a subject of trial and error, taking into account the mass and weight distribution of
the assembled unit, and resonances within it and the mounts themselves. Sure you can engineer a solution, but it will need some research and experimenting. Regards, Combustor.
-
You only need the rubber mat or carpet scraps under your frame temporarily for balancing via the Mr. X balancing method. Afterwards, you can mount as you prefer. As Mr X once wrote, "why make it hard?
Quinn's method of first making the wheels match is a good idea. If you alternate flywheels, via Mr X method, I think you'll still come out OK. You'll have shorter lines (more movement) on the wheel that is off more, so you can add more on that side.
-
I know it's not helpful to say so, but welcome to the world of slow speed single cylinder engines. They all either hop of slide or pirouette. Lots of parts moving in too many directions to easily balance. Sort of like a fat lady in a thong riding a bicycle down a washboard road.
Quinn
My lacking literary expertise never was able to truly describe to others the problems involved in balancing a Listeroid......but now thanks to Quinn I can explain to others......OK you have to add the weight in just the right places and it will appear that you have a beautiful young bikini clad lady riding down a washboard road but things can,t vary much in the rpm,s or it will turn into what Quinn described.
-
Here she is at 820rpm or so. Given that my gen head pulley is an 10.6" that 820 may be about right.
http://youtu.be/ZK2AgM4xdyo
I think I'll charge on and get the radiator brackets fabbed up and installed. The 2-v belt with a bonded back should arrive tomorrow. I also purchased a starter generator for a gas golf cart. These things act as a starter when power applied to two posts, and as a generator on two other posts when running. Seemed like the perfect mate to a Lister!
-
Just saw your vid. It doesn't look so bad, and I think you'll be OK with the light steel tubing close coupled to the 4x4 sleepers. I like steel AND wood in an engine frame. Steel for a rigid engine/genny mount, and wood to dampen some of the higher frequency vibrations that can telegraph throughout a steel frame and to provide some mass to the structure.
Anything you can do to get the flywheels balanced the same will help on the vibration front.
And as I said before, there's nothing sacred about 800 rpm. Run the engine where it is happiest and it will reward you with longer life and less vibration.
Here's what I built:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/EngineFrame-1.jpg)
and here's the engine on the frame when it had casters beneath it:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/Lister%20Diesel%20Stuff/RollaroundStand.jpg)
Quinn
-
I know it's not helpful to say so, but welcome to the world of slow speed single cylinder engines. They all either hop of slide or pirouette. Lots of parts moving in too many directions to easily balance. Sort of like a fat lady in a thong riding a bicycle down a washboard road.
Quinn
My lacking literary expertise never was able to truly describe to others the problems involved in balancing a Listeroid......but now thanks to Quinn I can explain to others......OK you have to add the weight in just the right places and it will appear that you have a beautiful young bikini clad lady riding down a washboard road but things can,t vary much in the rpm,s or it will turn into what Quinn described.
[/quote]
Dave, glad that mental picture worked for you. I rather like the illustration, myself. A little jiggle in the right places is just fine, but it can get out of hand, as you pointed out.
Quinn
-
Chin UP! You are not that far away with your balance. As somebody said there is far too much weight going up and down to get a perfect balance by adding weight that goes round and round. You can however get one of them to sit pretty much still meaning it doesnt hop or scoot around. Myself I find it easier to get rid of some of the variables before going to the Mr X method. My ramblings on that are a page or so back on this forum. However If you start and stop it enough times and dont forget where and how much weight you have added you can get there. That is how I did my 6/1 metro prior to developing my more scientific method. You can see the results on my You tube channel The38ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2YwtlfAVfc
-
I agree, it looks pretty good. It just needs a minor flywheel weight adjustment. Because of what looks like the fore-aft movement of the head (?) I'd guess you need weight opposite the flywheel counterweight.
Get some modeling clay and have some fun. You will see/feel (or measure via Ronmar's dial gauge method) only subtle changes from increments of 4 oz of clay added.
-
[ship] I also purchased a starter generator for a gas golf cart. These things act as a starter when power applied to two posts, and as a generator on two other posts when running. Seemed like the perfect mate to a Lister!
Where'd you score the starter-generator? Surplus center had some a while back (when I didn't need one) but last I looked, they were all sold.
Quinn
-
Quinn,
J & B Motor Sales LLC
3131 E Dryden Rd
Metamora, MI 48455
-
Starter/Generator came in and I finally got it unboxed tonight. I ordered and extra set of brushes for it, an external regulator, and a solenoid. Here is a pic of the starter:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/753ccbf9.jpg)
An here is that Chrysler radiator with the 1" inlet/outlet. No unsightly bell plumbing adapters needed. It measures 15" x 18":
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/39e70e5e.jpg)
-
Tard here OK? :P :P but I cannnot find the info for the radiator. Could you post year/model for me?
-
Geo Metro around 1993-1995 radiators are available. All have vertical core like that one, too, and are ideal for thermosiphoning.
-
Well I need some help again. I have two problems. The first:
I got my belt in, and gen head setup. The belt tracks beautifully, and works great. Gen head spins really quietly with no load. However the dog house is total crap. the insides are not done well, and the potentiometer on the voltage adjustment is junk. I have several questions. Where do I measure voltage? Where do I hook up the 240 volt leads? Can I just scrap this dog house and redo it? Do you all have pics of what you did? Is there and AVR in there? What are the items in the picture below?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/60bfd94f.jpg)
I don't like the way the radiator looks in the pic below. I also need a way to pick this thing up! I'm thinking of using 2x2 on each side and coming staight up on the sides 24" then 45 degrees toward center for 36", and then a flat top. From the side view it would look like the top half of a stop sign. I'd bridge the pieces on each side across the middle in several places. Then place the radiator on the 45 degree section. Thoughts? Below is a pic of the temporary radiator mount I am fabbing up for testing.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/7ee654f6.jpg)
Here is a pic of her running with the belt on:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/35c73e40.jpg)
-
This head has the potentiometer rather than AVR for voltage adjustment, many prefer this variation for use with the single cylinder Listers.
If you are lacking the docs for that ST head we can send you a copy.
Agreed that those lightweight doghouses are junk... many folks mount up their meters and such remotely and/or put a more substantial box on the head. There are threads on the forum regarding these mods.
dieselgman
-
dieselgman,
The doc that came with mine looks nothing like what I am seeing in the dog house. They just don't match. Even the lettering on the wires is different.
-
These heads come from Tom at Central Georgia Generator. I will try to determine why there is a mis-match and I'm sure that Tom will help us out as well.
dieselgman
-
Here is a link to an excellent step by step article on how to change out the "dog house".
http://www.woodnstuff.ca/dog_house.html (http://www.woodnstuff.ca/dog_house.html)
-
T1 to T2 should read 240vac, T3,4 to either T1 or T2 should both read 120vac.
dieselgman
-
There are pictures of various radiator and frame setups here:
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6278.0 (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6278.0)
Including one that I think is similar to what you're describing.
Tom at Central Georgia Generator is very helpful with the AVR, he can supply you one along with instructions on how to wire it up. Yes, the dog house is junk, lots of pictures on here of what people have done to replace it. The search function is your friend...
-
Regarding the radiator, is there any reason that you need to mount the radiator to the engine frame? When you locate your generator system to wherever it's going to live, couldn't you just bolt the radiator to a wall? Having a radiator up high like that will require quite a lot of bracing in order to keep it from vibrating like a tuning fork. I don't presently have a pic to show you ,but my engine is in a corner of the groj and the radiator is mounted to the wall where it's secure and doesn't move around.
Quinn
-
Quinf, I plan to do just that with the next build, but was thinking of trying to keep this one semi-portable and attach the radiator in some way. I may not do that though..... I may just put some feet on that and have it to hold the radiator during testing.
I'll look around using search for doghouse info.
Thanks!
-
Tom Osborn tells me that only the generic manuals are printed for these ST heads... I realize now that the rheostat controlled versions are labeled and wired somewhat different than what is depicted in the manual. We will translate anything that is required to help you set it up and maybe come up with a new or corrected version of the manual. I appreciate your input and for calling our attention to this anomaly. ;)
dieselgman
-
Progress has slowed on this project. We are prepping for planting wheat, school starting, and last of summer activities goin on. I'm tired!
I worked on the cooling some more. I got the fittings for the head and jug installed and I have a Murphy switch guage for temperature. BTW the guage was only $37 bucks at the Versatile dealership. Double that from Murphy resellers online. Weird.... Here's a pic of cooling:
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/8F95C86B-4E0F-48A6-9891-0B910CFD5A38-3093-0000046564D46E5E.jpg)
I've also started to work on the Starter/Generator mounting bracket. I've picked up a serpentine pulley and belt for it. The bracket is finished. I just need to get a tensioning bracket figured out for the top ear on the Starter/Generator. Any ideas?
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/8F8BC924-44F5-4966-B7F3-E9447133F873-3093-000004655D204314.jpg)
-
Got the Starter/Generator bracket welded on and painted. Starter/Generator is on, belt on and tight, and I tried it with the jumper cables. Works great! Still need to mount the solenoid, regulator, and start button.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/663702E2-320A-444E-9F09-312B2D17D259-3807-0000057D10A27F94.jpg)
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/40981BC0-3970-4853-A548-5C2D5C82B572-3807-0000057D1B65AB87.jpg)
Ready for battery, and to move it to the shed and anchor to the floor. New doghouse and a few other goodies arrive from Tom at Central Georgia generator this week. I'm going to have a remote doghouse and control panel mounted on the gen shed wall. Plan to keep all that stuff away from the vibration.
-
OK,
Are you going to mount the radiator with the cooling tubes horizontal or vertical? In my travels I have found the coolant hoses will transfer any minor or major engine movement to the raditor tanks causing a worry spot. A down loop or a dog leg lets the hose flex instead of the radiator.
-
xyzer,
That radiator was made to mount them horizontal. If I flip it to vertical I think the cap will still work, but it makes the in the out, and the out the in. Probably doesn't matter though does it?
Gonna mount the radiator to the wall. Not sure what you mean on the coolant hoses. I thought Dursley wanted a direct shot from the top of the head to the radiator without any loops.I did think I would have that top hose kind of come straight up, and then curve towards the radiator constantly going uphill all the way. Will that work?
-
If the distance to the radiator from the engine is in feet and not inches there will probably not be a problem.
This is my first shot at it and the engine movement jammed at the radiator.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/listerrunninclip.jpg)
I had to do something before it cracked the radiator and my only choice was to put a loop in it.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/pump5.jpg)
Beware that the tanks on the newer radiators need a larger water reserve. If you loose any water it will break the thermal siphon and not circulate unless you have a circulation pump. Many add an overflow tank to keep the water above the return inlet to keep the thermosiphon going. There are many ways to skin this cat....I'm sure others will chime in.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/RADITORLAYOUT.jpg)
-
A small thing I noticed. Constant drive starter.
I was talking with Chris R a few days ago, and he has a similar setup, but his starter-generator is running off the A/C alternator rather than main flywheel for gear reduction. What he found was that the commutator wears rather rapidly being driven all the time. Working in the golf cart industry, I have seen motors starting to wear out faster than usual. Most replacement brush sets I have been getting are made in India actually and I figure they are too hard.
I have been looking into one way bearings to install in the pulley to allow the starter to stop to reduce wear when used as a starter for a lister type. Havent decided on a model to try out yet.
I do see that the OP is using an updated version of the Hitachi-style motors that most carts use. The brushes are a little more than double the size of the standard rig, hopefully this will help with brushes burning the commutator by having a larger contact surface.
Over the years I've noticed brushes going from a nice back carbon color to a more copper color, and I think you will find this starter will have similar brushes.
Just throwing it out there, I have only heard of one failure of a starter-generator tied to a lister, but it might be something to watch.
Rom
-
What XYZER said about the radiators and supply tank X2.
An option is to use a radiator designed for thermosyphon which will have a built in supply of water above the top hose. I use radiators from John Deere LUC power units. They are plentiful, cheap and not too large.
Deere LUC radiator on one of my 6/1 engines. Notice the position of the top hose and built in coolant reserve above it.
(http://oi41.tinypic.com/24wvaky.jpg)
-
A small thing I noticed. Constant drive starter.
[snip] Rom
I've been thinking the same thing. They're available off of Amazon.com for cheap. But I was told there were wear issues, too. So I've been thinking of using a magnetic clutch off an auto air conditioning compressor, available cheap from the junkyard. But that involves turning a tapered and keyed shaft to adapt to it, so at some point it starts to make sense to simply use an auto starter and be done with it.
q.
-
38ac, are your sourcing those dear parts at new? Or salvage? I'm assuming when referring to Deere Power Units you must live in irrigation country?
-
Are you thinking that belt drive starter will start the engine under compression?
-
38ac, are your sourcing those dear parts at new? Or salvage? I'm assuming when referring to Deere Power Units you must live in irrigation country?
Nope, I am in Ohio, the LUC is the power unit version of the "L" 2 cylinder tractor. They powered many small combines, choppers, blowers etc before tractors had live PTO on them. Lots of the power units have had the engines removed to put in tractors. The radiator is differant from the tractor so seldom get used. I put want ad out on a couple tractor sites and got 20 responces. I paid $75 for the ones I got. Try to get them from drier areas like Texas and north to minimize rot. You will need adapters to get down to 1" pipe thread. I just machined some slugs that fit inside the inlet and outlet, cleaned the rust from them and JB Welded them in place. Probably other ways to get same result.
Link to a good place to put an ad, Yesterdays Tractors. http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/clasquery.pl
-
Fabricator, I am nottrying to belt start through the compression stroke. Solenoid on the decompression lever, and solenoid on the fuel rack. I'll be able, with a timer, to decompress after shut down and let her coast the last few rounds. Although I think with an idler on the top belt it just might do it, but I don't want to burn her up.
38ac, interesting on the power units. I'll look into that ASAP. This area in Oklahoma we've been in tillage for 100 years, so I've probably seen those around and just didn't think of it!
Quinnf, Some starter/generators I've learned have more torque than others, so be sure you know what you are buying. Also don't buy a cheap Chinese replacement. The 1984 Club Car cart had a VERY torquey little starter on it. I had them send me and extra set of brushes with it. They are like the old brushes of the past. Made from a soft lead-like substance that isn't lead. I've seen the newer copper looking brushes that heat and discolor. These are not those.
The company I posted earlier where I bought the starter/generator sold me the solenoid, external regulator, and extra brushes along with it as a match set. Great people!
-
So the biggest problem at this point is that doghouse on the ST head. That thing is awful! Shake, rattle, and rolling all over the place. I took it off, and low and behold it has these horrible excuses for rubber "isolators" under it. No wonder the crazy thing is shaking all over! I mounted an aluminum/steel box on top, drilled holes to mount it. Drilled it to attach the bus bar and rectifier and all is MUCH better. Found a bare wire in the process, patched it up, and now I get steady values on the multi-meter from the head. 242 volts.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/A8D178E2-572A-419B-B248-33BE75F7C781-8246-00000B2DD14CDF04.jpg)
Started on the control box I am building that will be monted on or near the generator. It has a push button start switch, Murphy Switchgauge for temperature, Ammeter for the battery, 12volt system on/off switch and dummy light (so far anyway).
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/402F7B4C-5DF0-44D0-BDDF-68AD53DA5F6F-8246-00000B2DC968CF18.jpg)
Got the Doghouse in from Central Georgia Generator. For the money, you can't beat it. It will be mounted on the wall, and an 4AWG 3 wire cable comes from the doghouse on the ST head to this one. Also have to bring a couple of 10AWG wires for the AVR in the remote doghouse.
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m614/OKFarmer123/E41BC19F-7671-4D6F-A4E6-0731957F67FD-8246-00000B2DBFA53F96.jpg)
Question:
I have three wires coming from the doghouse on the ST head. The outside to posts 120v legs each (or 240v across them) and one wire for the center two lugs that are common for the 120 volt legs. When I get to the doghouse from CGG there are three CT's in there. Then to a breaker that has three lugs or poles. So do all three wires pass through the appropriate CT's and then to all three lugs on that breaker? Tom's instructions say to wire for single of three phase. but get a little vague. Anyone able to clarify any of this for me? I can add pics tomorrow if needed.
Thanks,
OKFarmer
-
The wire on center two lugs that is common will be your neutral wire. You do NOT want any switches or breakers in the neutral wire. You DO want breakers in the two 120V wires. You should be able to simply leave the third breaker disconnected.
-
I note that you might have a crimped (blue) wire connection there... I would recommend you use only soldered connections for those leads as they are subject to high levels of vibration stress. Also add some protection for those wires where they exit the generator case to avoid direct contact and chafing with the metal case. Vibration can be destructive to the wiring insulation if it is not carefully protected.
I see your project is coming along nicely! Great work!
dieselgman
-
A quick search on crimp vs solder will show that there is concern/controversy about solder joints in vibration environments. The majority position is now to use crimp. Soldering stranded wire causes hardening of the copper strands (which must be quenched quickly to soften the copper, the opposite of steel), and this plus the lead free solder is reported to be less reliable than proper crimp connections.
I'm old school and still often solder and heat shrink, perhaps more than I should. I don't trust crimps in corrosion environments, but have started using conductive grease for crimp required situations to help with that issue.
It's was hard for me to believe that crimps were more reliable in some situations but it is apparently widely supported.
-
Interesting input... I am sure that a high-quality crimp with dielectric grease would be fine. But I would certainly put emphasis on the "high-quality" aspect and rule out many of the common automotive type tools and hardware that is commonly used in DC automotive wiring. We use a lot of hydraulically crimped connectors for our larger power transmission connections up to and including high-voltage transmission wire lines. These all contain a dielectric grease, once they are connected properly the connected wires are practically fused together mechanically from the pressure applied to the coupler. These connections have been proven to be at least as strong as the continuous wire would be.
Definitely +1 on the shrink-wrap. It is appalling how many fine generator heads we have replaced due to wire abrasion that resulted in eventual overheating in the windings due to short circuits.
dieselgman
-
I haven't had much luck with crimp connectors either. I even went and bought an expensive crimp tool and good quality crimp connectors, they still don't hold up very well. I've gone back to soldering everything. I still have tin-lead solder for electrical work, I only use the lead-free stuff on the plumbing. I've never had a wire break next to a solder joint, but I'm not in a marine or aircraft environment either. On the other hand, those Chinese wires in my ST head were a challenge to solder - the copper is covered with some kind of gunk that is very hard to clean off.
-
Better yet there looks to be plenty of slack in that wire, just cut the whole mess out and put a new female spade connector on it.
-
I've been trying out this grease for electrical connections for the last few years:
http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html
It has solved the problem on former problem connectors (vibration, corrosion) on my MB 300D. I've also used it on a variety of connectors and variac "commutator" surface with good results. It seems to be good goop. YMMV
-
In the aircraft world crimp has overtaken solder philosophy. However THAT is NOT one of the $4 aircraft wire crimps. It's a $.05 one for automotive DC as Dieselgman pointed out. I will use a good crimp on it and heat-shrink. I heat shrink everything. I did the quick crimp to test and see if my voltage leveled off. I was having trouble with blinking on my multimeter. Turns out a couple wires were bare and after cleaning it all up that fixed it. I know I have to take a loop of wire from one of those wires on the rectifier to my AVR in the remote doghouse. When I figure out which one I'll fix the crimp.
On an 8/1 with a ST5 head, if I back down to 775 on engine rpm, and pulley up correctly for 1860 at genny what will my output be? Anyone have a guess? That engine is just sweet at 775, and vibrates at 850. I still need to load it before I make that decision. I'm hoping I get wrapped up enough to move it to it's permanent home this week, and get her anchored to the floor and do some load tests.
Next question for engine #2 is: Changfa? or Lister? I need 12-15kW. Would prefer 17kW!
OKFarmer
-
Hello OKfarmer,
With your 8/1, horsepower will be pretty much proportional to rpm in its normal operating range, so if you are cutting revs by less than 10%, the output will reduce by a similar amount. Depending on alternator and drive losses ,I assume you could still pull 4kw continuous. If you can maintain frequency and the exhaust smoke is only slight, you should be fine.
Regards, Combustor.
-
For 15 to 17kW, you will need a prime mover - something around 30hp. That can be had in a twin Lister, but maybe better off using something more modern. If you like the low speed, how about an oilfield engine? Do you have natural gas or ready supplies of propane? Arrow makes some amazing stuff. 600 rpm 30hp is typical in their C-96 genset flavor. Budget is the kicker with that stuff but it is well documented for round-the-clock usage in the range of 65,000 hours - no extra maintenance. Still quite a bit less $$ than Willem's stuff and also is EPA certified. :laugh:
dieselgman
-
Yeah Willem's stuff is off the chart high. ::)
Is there availability of 30hp from you Gary?
I've not even thought of the Arrow route. I have gas ells, but no gas tap at the house. Couldn't get that negotiated. I have some sources on the Arrow route though. Hmmm...
I have several friends at various levels in the gas/oil industry. My distribution buddy says don't count on natural gas/propane when the crap hits the fan. Their disaster plans are to cut all the small towns/rural taps, shut in as many wells as possible, and just keep the metro areas up and loaded up with natural gas. So for me, diesel is still the answer.
-
One other thought: Gary, don't you have a ton of oilfield/lister types? Anything in that range? Hook me up my man!
-
If cost is no object, much of the oilfield stuff is vastly superior to anything else on the market in terms of quality and serviceability. Arrow is an excellent choice, and headquartered in Tulsa!
Propane can be stored indefinitely (presumably) without degradation of the fuel... plenty of container options - everywhere. You could also go the direction of wood-gas with the same engine types if you had biomass and some basic technology to burn/gasify it.
We have a lot (hundreds) of HRG Lister industrial engines in 2 and 3 cylinder versions... these can also be converted to diesel (or other liquid fuels) if required.
dieselgman
-
SNIP
I have several friends at various levels in the gas/oil industry. My distribution buddy says don't count on natural gas/propane when the crap hits the fan. Their disaster plans are to cut all the small towns/rural taps, shut in as many wells as possible, and just keep the metro areas up and loaded up with natural gas. So for me, diesel is still the answer.
This is exactly what happened last year when a deep freeze hit New Mexico. Small northern NM communities hit -35F and had their gas supplies shutoff to keep the pressure up in the metro areas.
-
Just another reason to be in charge of your own fuel supply... this does not rule out natural gas engines though. In most places, LP Gas is fairly close to same price as other petroleum fuels. The nice thing about it is, a large volume will compress into a fairly compact tank. We run our forklifts on this fuel and it costs somewhat less than either gasoline or diesel.
dieselgman
-
Propane,will remain good almost forever but if it sits a long time it will stratify and not burn for squat.Good form to shake or outherwise agitate tanks if they have sat a long time.Usally big tanks are agitated when filled or topped off.Its rather rare but if your having trouble try shaking the tank.Frank C.
-
OKFarmer- No need to live with less than 850 rpm if you don't want to. It's easy to tweak the balance to have have smooth running at whatever your desired rpm is. Get some clay, some stick on lead weights and in an hour you're there.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
-
Arrow C96 (Waukesha Climax)... This one configured with 15kW Marathon generator - 600 rpm (propane/natural gas). Could also run wood gas. The pricing will let you know why we mess with the Lister clones!
$22,150 new
$16,500 recon
$12,000 good used
(http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7285&g2_serialNumber=2)
dieselgman
-
Arrow C96 (Waukesha Climax)... This one configured with 15kW Marathon generator - 600 rpm (propane/natural gas). Could also run wood gas. The pricing will let you know why we mess with the Lister clones!
$22,150 new
$16,500 recon
$12,000 good used
dieselgman
Too bad India never cloned the big american horizontal engines.
I did find this Chinese manufacturer for this item, Natural gas engine-1190NT (http://www.shengli-machinery.com/Natural-Gas-Engine.html). I even got a quote from them about 18 months ago,
"Our price of Gas engine No.1190NT is USD11000 each set FOB Qingdao.
USD11400 each set CIF Houston.
Packing: 7 sets load into one 20'FCL container;
Payment: L/C at sight or TT.
Delivery time: 30 days load ship."
-
Interesting... have they certified these for EPA compliance within the USA?
dieselgman
-
Also, the last short container we moved from India ran almost $7800 when all was said and done... not likely they can ship FCL for the $2800 indicated into Houston.
dieselgman
-
Interesting... have they certified these for EPA compliance within the USA?
dieselgman
I have contact info for them if you are interested. Or you can contact them via their website, I'm pretty sure that is how I found their contact info. Don't know why container shipping was so low, 18 months ago oil prices were about where they are now.
I recall there was an outfit in Texas that had these listed on their website. That might be why the Chinese manufacturer listed Houston as the destination, perhaps they had shipped there before. I stumbled across them after finding the Chinese manufacturer, that one will be harder to track down as I never interacted with them. Well, I found it anyway. TITAN Pump Jacks Inc. (http://www.novanitek.com/). Click on the Engines link under products, it brings up a page with no engine pictures, but it lists "4 models", "1125T, 1190NT-1, 1190NT-2, 2190T-1".
-
What ever came of this project?
-
Hi, I 'm using lister 8/1 in Argentina .
A good option is this engine replacement .
http://www.diademaengine.com/descargas/kng1600e.pdf
Greetings .