Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: GuyFawkes on June 01, 2006, 04:50:33 PM
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The background to my thinking is on my blog, which is http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/blog/archives/11-Sorting-the-Men-from-the-Boys..html and no this is not some lame self promotion of my blog (it's on the same domain as all my lister files anyway) but it saves me typing the background twice.
My suggestion is that we, as a group, admins especially and those who pay for this server in particular) take note of something.
That something is how outsiders get treated and how their percieve us.
Get it right and you have a thriving community, get it wrong and we disappear ever further up our own asses.
To that end I have a suggestion, that we mandate what we are all about right now, and I personally would not feel that what we are about is listers, or listeroids, or co-gen, or any other restrictive and exclusive terminology.
I suggest we are about the following.
All applications of Slow speed stationary engines of 750 RPM or less
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Well let's see.
With my GM-90 8/1 I have a vertical single cylinder diesel with large flywheels that is made in India.
However, my RPM is a little above 750.
So I quack like a duck, and I walk like a duck, but because I walk a little too fast I’m not a duck.
This is just plain stupid.
Jim
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how about we limit it too any one or two cylinder NON EPA COMPLIANT diesel engine!
at least then we can develop a large enough lobby to get some exemptions maybe.... perhaps,,,, ok i guess we won't
on a serious note, living here in the states there is a finite supply of original listers, and getting one as easily as our fellow board members that live in England or one of the commonwealth countries is definetly not a cake walk by any means.
so we were left with listeroids, petteroids, and yes like it or not changfa's, at least until the EPA ban. in this crazy ass country who knows how long it will be before they confiscate all of them anyway.... don't laugh someone is probably thinking about it anyway.
i personally don't think this board should be so narrow in scope as to orphan these other engines and their variants, there is at least some power and protection in numbers, and certainly a better chance of getting something done and gathering more idea's and experiences.
i have been involved with another RE board for a number of years, and when they decided to change the format of the front page to block out anything that was not approved by the admin and place elsewhere the whole thing took a dive in my estimation, too limited in scope.
sure not everyone or everything is directly connected to a <750rpm lister, but there are those that develope idea's, processes and procedures on other engines that simply will take their ball and go home if they feel excluded. This is a serious loss in my mind.
as a hypothetical example...
say i guy in brazil ,, working with a petteroid running at 1500 rpm,, works out the plans, developes and impliments an exhaust gas heat exchanger from something as simple as a pop can, he documents it, produces graphs of results and all sorts of pictures to support the project... all done using a brick and a rock to manufacture it... that would be cool and would probably have wide use in all sorts of small diesel engine includeing the lister/listeroids of <750 rpm. if he feels excluded where does he go? maybe he just stays home and no one see's it.
i know this is an extreme example only made to illustrate my point..
my thinking is if one is to define the scope then dont narrow to much. perhaps keeping with older design engines, such as the lister, petter, and ok,,, maybe the changfa to a lessor degree. make it all things that connect to the use of these engines, beit generation (with old generators, or newer alternators) heat exchangers (cogeneration) or as used to pump air/water or do useful work.
i dunno,,, seems like my government spends alot of time removing options, i really don't like the feel of removing options here.
bob g
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Well let's see.
With my GM-90 8/1 I have a vertical single cylinder diesel with large flywheels that is made in India.
However, my RPM is a little above 750.
So I quack like a duck, and I walk like a duck, but because I walk a little to fast I’m not a duck.
This is just plain stupid.
Jim
BZZZZT!
Nope, that's not how it works. You don't get to tear holes in one idea without offering up a better one.
If your RPM is a little over 750, will 600 cover you? or 850? if so then suggest that.
Do you want this site to cater to people running 3300 RPM Volvo 2003's? Yes / No?
Either way you ARE making a decision, and drawing a line somehwere.
We have a couple of changfa people here already, and some who own nothing.
Not choosing is not not making a decision, you are still making a decision, just distancing yourself from it.
This question IS going to come in at some point in the future and decide the turning point for this site and these forums and the people here.
Do we want to be here because we like each other? or so we want to be here because we can like or dislike each other at will, but we have a common interest which happens to match what is written on that big sign over the entranceway?
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sure not everyone or everything is directly connected to a <750rpm lister, but there are those that develope idea's, processes and procedures on other engines that simply will take their ball and go home if they feel excluded. This is a serious loss in my mind.
exactly
How about a 500 RPM 3 HP steam engine?
How about a Stirling engine?
How about an Arrow or something running on methane?
Each of these people could talk about interesting and relevant things.
How about a loon running a how made turbocharger based turbine burning sawdust?
me, I'd listen to all of them, if this was strictly lister, nothing else, not even gen heads, why come here, I have an original working one that will last my lifetime, and with that attitude this site would have literally nothing to offer me.
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Guy:
i understand your points and they are well taken at least by me...
you are absolutely correct in that this discussion will inevitably arrise at some point, so it is far better to do so earlier that to wait and make a hasty not well thought out change.
i cant get my hands on an original lister, or at least not economically so.
what i have managed to do is purchase a number of engines (pre ban) one of which is a 25/2 listeroid that is governed at i think 1000 rpm, i suppose i could turn it back to 750 rpm or claim to do so to feel at home here.
i think with the ban, we need to include a few other engines, such as the petters and changfa's.. there arent going to be more of them brought in legally so the numbers are not huge anyway.
i would agree in that i too would not want to see volvo's (which i hate, dispise, lothe.... did i mention hate) or 12v149 detroit gensets and all the other stuff in between..
i still think that keeping it to one and two cylinder engines, of basic or old school design would limit or specialize the board sufficiently to keep the quality or integrity of the forum.
what to you think?
bob g
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G
what to you think?
bob g
I think my thoughts on the matter are quite clear, so it ain't for me to say, it is for everyone else to have a say, and for those who actually make the rules (admin and domain owner) to call the tune.
they need to plan too....
if this site is going to have 1000 members in 12 months time, take 6 gig server footprint and consume 5 gig of bandwidth a week, that costs someone time and money, and they need to plan for that and see how to make it back somehow.
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It seems to me that a good criteria would be a Lister clone made in India.
I feel we should exclude the original Lister engines as they are not relevant.
The vast majority of forum members own clones and are simply interested in getting the most out of them.
I don't give a rats ass about the original Listers. I do however want my clone to run as reliably as possible.
Jim
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What about Petters and Changfas? Did Lister not merge with Petter? Changfa is still available in a lot of places outside of the USA. I think it's as arrogant and arbitrary as the EPA itself, to place board limits based on a geographical governmental stupidity. This site is global.
How about non-modern, unconventional, non-throw-away, stuff that actually WORKS! I'll take a half-assed Indian Lister over a Honda 3600rpm gas-burner any day...
I'd prefer to see an "1800rpm and below" limit instead. The oddball engines aren't taking up too much space/pipe here, and aren't a big enough topic to start their own forum. I think we'd do ourselves, and others, a dis-service to exclude something that small.
I'll go delete the post about my trucks then.....
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It seems to me that a good criteria would be a Lister clone made in India.
I feel we should exclude the original Lister engines as they are not relevant.
The vast majority of forum members own clones and are simply interested in getting the most out of them.
I don't give a rats ass about the original Listers. I do however want my clone to run as reliably as possible.
Jim
that would be like rover v8 and TVR sites excluding anyone with a buick, because they only invented the engine in question.
how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.
like sweeping water uphill, it can be done, by why make obstacles for yourself?
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how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.
What body of knowledge are you referring to? Your rants and babbling?
Jim
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Seems to me the site is already setup to handle a lot of different engine types with different areas for Listers, Listeroids, Generators, etc. and the all inclusive General Discussion.
Guy has just shown how easy it is to add a new area, ask for a new area and it shows up the next day.
If we get a lot of discussion going about some engine type that is not currently covered it should be just as easy to setup an area just for that type.
And if you want steam engines I got two stationary engines one 8" by 8" with a 30" flywheel and one 8" by 12" with 48" flywheels. A little more then 3HP but would not want to be around either at 500 rpm, even the little one has close to 100 lbs of reciprocating iron and no counter weights on the crank. :o
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how you think you are going to "get the most" out of your clone, while excluding the body of knowledge that contains everything that the originals stand for, will be quite a challenge.
What body of knowledge are you referring to? Your rants and babbling?
Jim
you see, you make my point for me.
for whatever reasons, you have decided you do not like me, and from there you go on to decide that since you do not like me, everything I say must be rubbish.
now, where does that get you?
serious question.
what have you personally got out of that?
answer, less than nothing.
i'm still here, but you have started down the groupthink road, where it is more important to you to be with those who will pander to your ego than those who can help you or educate you, and by doing this you force everyone else to make a decision too, do they;
1/ stick by you because they know you
2/ stick by me because they know me
3/ abstain from the process and form the passive third group, who will eventually fade away by attrition anyway.
that is YOUR solution, YOUR way of doing things.
MY way is different.
My way is I can fall out with one or two people, and when we have fallen out we both can continue posting, even to the same thread, we just stay off standing on each others toes and nobody else has to pick sides.
that leaves the door open for me and them to stumble across something in future we agree upon, and perhaps decide we like each other after all.
"my way or the highway" doesn't cut it, unless you own the highway of course, which you don't.
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And if you want steam engines I got two stationary engines one 8" by 8" with a 30" flywheel and one 8" by 12" with 48" flywheels. A little more then 3HP but would not want to be around either at 500 rpm, even the little one has close to 100 lbs of reciprocating iron and no counter weights on the crank. :o
yes I want, at the very least you can post links to some pictures.....
I think you should give me one of your engines, that is much fairer... ::)
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you see, you make my point for me.
for whatever reasons, you have decided you do not like me, and from there you go on to decide that since you do not like me, everything I say must be rubbish.
now, where does that get you?
serious question.
what have you personally got out of that?
answer, less than nothing.
i'm still here, but you have started down the groupthink road, where it is more important to you to be with those who will pander to your ego than those who can help you or educate you, and by doing this you force everyone else to make a decision too, do they;
1/ stick by you because they know you
2/ stick by me because they know me
3/ abstain from the process and form the passive third group, who will eventually fade away by attrition anyway.
that is YOUR solution, YOUR way of doing things.
MY way is different.
My way is I can fall out with one or two people, and when we have fallen out we both can continue posting, even to the same thread, we just stay off standing on each others toes and nobody else has to pick sides.
that leaves the door open for me and them to stumble across something in future we agree upon, and perhaps decide we like each other after all.
"my way or the highway" doesn't cut it, unless you own the highway of course, which you don't.
bab·ble (bbl)
v. bab·bled, bab·bling, bab·bles
v.intr.
1. To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds:
I think I am done conversing with you on this subject.
Feel free to keep babbling.
Jim
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<< snip >>
MY way is different.
My way is I can fall out with one or two people, and when we have fallen out we both can continue posting, even to the same thread, we just stay off standing on each others toes and nobody else has to pick sides.
that leaves the door open for me and them to stumble across something in future we agree upon, and perhaps decide we like each other after all.
"my way or the highway" doesn't cut it, unless you own the highway of course, which you don't.
One way to tell a good friend from just a friend is if you can have a flat out never going to convince me argument while unloading his $10,000 tractor at your place so you can do a little dirt work for the cost of the fuel. >:(
Guy and I may have different opinions on the usefulness or at least the application of certain equations, but based on the type of stuff he carries around in his vehicle I am reasonably sure we would have some good times if he were living next door.
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I wonder if flaming is all this thread is going to be useful for? GuyFawkes and I haven't gotten along too well at times. Doesn't mean I'm going to start crap in every thread he posts..... He has redeming qualities outside of suggesting that Oil is a terribly corrosive lubricant that should be replaced with Water..... :-P
As long at the already definied topics for the forums are followed, I fail to see how limiting things severely can be useful. We already have a place for "other slow-speed engines" and such. Plenty of diversity at the top of the page on Indian/Original Listers, etc...
I say it's fine the way it is. It's organized and easy to find information. The "other stuff" isn't mixed in, making things hard to find.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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yes I want, at the very least you can post links to some pictures.....
I think you should give me one of your engines, that is much fairer... ::)
I will try to get some up tomorrow.
Took me a long time to find the first engine, but it was like bate for the next. A guy come up to me at a local threshing show and says you know I think I have an engine like that in the weeds someplace. I am not sure how you lose track of 5000lbs of iron you have been mowing around for 20 years.
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"I am not sure how you lose track of 5000lbs of iron you have been mowing around for 20 years."
now that is funny,,, sadly it probably shouldnt be.
god only knows how much cool stuff is out there rotting into the ground, an example
years ago while searching for 55 chevy parts, i came upon a farmstead with an old dual glide harley complete with leather
saddle bags rotting into the dirt (axles down to about 2 inches from the surface, spokes down in the ground)
i asked how much? he asked what does a new harley sell for? i replied i dunno maybe 3 grand. his responce,,,, well i want 3 grand for that one! i asked if we could dig it out and push it into the barn? he said no!! it has been there for 20 years and it will continue to sit there. some peoples children!
sorry i digress and effectively highjacked the thread :)
back on topic...
folks get all upset and get offended at being challenged, or at least some folks. The thing is we as regular folks don't get to
see first hand the level of discussion such as that in a scientific forum or debate where opposing sides really go to town in what would appear to be nothing short of a knock down drag out war of words, usually without fists. After which they all go to the bar and laugh at each other and get along if not well at least cordially.
personally i have said and i will say again, if one is sure of his position he should be able to relate it without name calling or ridicule. Basically state your position and support it! Give alternative view points or at least alternative questions. It serves no one to beat each other up by debaseing someone, and it really becomes tedious to alot of other folks that come along the forum and the offending thread. I wonder how many folks (fearing a flame job) withhold good and pertinent questions, experience or information.
ok now how about a group hug.... lmao
bob g
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I used to run a forrum on home brewing and a funny thing happened about a year and a half into it....
We ran out of things to talk about. Every now and then a newbie would join the list and ask the same questions again and the same people would say the same things, and things would quite down at Good Homebrewing a slow and withering death realy.
The reason is we focussed on the technical aspects of brew and less on the enjoyment of the hobby. We thumbed our noses at extract brewers and debated pointless things. Now a quick pop over to Hopland a sister site today shows a lot more posts because they drink and chat about beer some brew some buy and some just drink wine....
Setting limits on a forrum is kind of foolish, at some point we'll run out of things to say once we identify the best Indian cam gear and solve the gentle weep of coolant. This is a hobby to some and a way of life to others, what you run is less important than the fact you run something.
Let it be Stationary and IC is all I ask. Lets explore all the options of speed, fuel and aplication. Let's talk about producer gas and cooking oil out of turkey guts. Let's see pictures of homes, kids and cottages. Lets keep the door open for all manner of electrical equipment pumping systems and perhaps even Hvac.
When we close the door off topic we risk loosing good ideas and people who will keep the discussions lively and open.
Doug
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I used to run a forrum on home brewing and a funny thing happened about a year and a half into it....
We ran out of things to talk about. Every now and then a newbie would join the list and ask the same questions again and the same people would say the same things, and things would quite down at Good Homebrewing a slow and withering death realy.
The reason is we focussed on the technical aspects of brew and less on the enjoyment of the hobby. We thumbed our noses at extract brewers and debated pointless things. Now a quick pop over to Hopland a sister site today shows a lot more posts because they drink and chat about beer some brew some buy and some just drink wine....
Setting limits on a forrum is kind of foolish, at some point we'll run out of things to say once we identify the best Indian cam gear and solve the gentle weep of coolant. This is a hobby to some and a way of life to others, what you run is less important than the fact you run something.
Let it be Stationary and IC is all I ask. Lets explore all the options of speed, fuel and aplication. Let's talk about producer gas and cooking oil out of turkey guts. Let's see pictures of homes, kids and cottages. Lets keep the door open for all manner of electrical equipment pumping systems and perhaps even Hvac.
When we close the door off topic we risk loosing good ideas and people who will keep the discussions lively and open.
Doug
To which I can only add ...AMEN! We live with too many (externally imposed) rules as is is, without adding a lot more of our own.
Russell
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I used to run a forrum on home brewing and a funny thing happened about a year and a half into it....
We ran out of things to talk about. Every now and then a newbie would join the list and ask the same questions again and the same people would say the same things, and things would quite down at Good Homebrewing a slow and withering death realy.
The reason is we focussed on the technical aspects of brew and less on the enjoyment of the hobby. We thumbed our noses at extract brewers and debated pointless things. Now a quick pop over to Hopland a sister site today shows a lot more posts because they drink and chat about beer some brew some buy and some just drink wine....
Setting limits on a forrum is kind of foolish, at some point we'll run out of things to say once we identify the best Indian cam gear and solve the gentle weep of coolant. This is a hobby to some and a way of life to others, what you run is less important than the fact you run something.
Let it be Stationary and IC is all I ask. Lets explore all the options of speed, fuel and aplication. Let's talk about producer gas and cooking oil out of turkey guts. Let's see pictures of homes, kids and cottages. Lets keep the door open for all manner of electrical equipment pumping systems and perhaps even Hvac.
When we close the door off topic we risk loosing good ideas and people who will keep the discussions lively and open.
Doug
To which I can only add ...AMEN! We live with too many (externally imposed) rules as is is, without adding a lot more of our own.
Russell
I 3rd that motion.... Not that anyone would listen to me.... :-P
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GuyFawkes,
You have a good point, reguardless of the babble. I suggest we limit it to stationary engines under 100 hp. I just included that afterthought as I am going to be dealing with a Cat 3512 which is sho'nuf stationary, but not my style. Steam has always been a fantasy of mine. Used to subscribe to Light Steam Power mag from you neck of the woods
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Yay Doug!
I have very eclectic taste (and questionable spelling) and like this forum better than any other I've snooped around on.
Guy, I'd hate to have you impose those restrictions of yours on yourself ;) you certainly wax eloquent, or at least Hot on your topic of the day. I check the posts for such good reading. There I go telling more about myself than I meant to..
I like the people that inhabit this little world. The topics range around, but always start at a Lister, and usually come back to one. These engines are no good unless they fill some need in our lives. Sofar I haven't needed mine except as an engineering project and an adjunct to my engineroom / powerplant. We haven't had a power failure since I got the dang thing!
I fade out from time to time, others have too. But I come back to see what my cyber buds are up to, and who the new ones are.
Scott E
I'm alittle concerned that the EPA restrictions will eventually doom this forum, but maybe it won't.
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Shipschief, Doug,
I like your thoughts. Thats why I suggested to GF that if he wants restrictions make them wide enough to include everyone. Guy would be bitten in the ass by these restrictions almost immediately, reading his posts. But even the 100 hp rule excludes some interesting people like Mamad. I like hearing from them thats doing, and those Stork's he was playing with were too much hp.
However, as has been noted elsewhere here, this site functions in an unmoderated condition. Sometimes this causes frustration with people and their childish behavior, and I think GF wants to weed out the Listeroid wannbe's who wouldn't even know which way to crank the thing. Other members have said this privately, and George B. just sees red over this forum because of this.
To me the best example of the usefulness of this site is the help Geno recieved in removing his butchered gib key. When I need help I know where I am coming to for advise.
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I'm a newbie of course, and the engine I have right now is a Lister-Petter AC-1 3600 rpm. Listeroid on the way. Trying to find all the pieces of a Briggs & Stratton ZZ around here someplace. I appreciate this forum a lot. I don't consider the AC-1 appropriate to get into in depth on this site other than as to how they apply to the Listeroids. I can get info about it at other places. Same for the Briggs. How many places can you get info. about the Listeroids?? Maybe that could be one starting point - Info not available elsewhere - for the situation.
Forum seems to be doing OK for now, IF offtrack things start to build up then consider moving them into a different slot. Les
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Off track is good....
An area for everything, because I do like to ramble.
Doug
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I used to run a forrum on home brewing and a funny thing happened about a year and a half into it....
We ran out of things to talk about. Every now and then a newbie would join the list and ask the same questions again and the same people would say the same things, and things would quite down at Good Homebrewing a slow and withering death realy.
The reason is we focussed on the technical aspects of brew and less on the enjoyment of the hobby. We thumbed our noses at extract brewers and debated pointless things. Now a quick pop over to Hopland a sister site today shows a lot more posts because they drink and chat about beer some brew some buy and some just drink wine....
Setting limits on a forrum is kind of foolish, at some point we'll run out of things to say once we identify the best Indian cam gear and solve the gentle weep of coolant. This is a hobby to some and a way of life to others, what you run is less important than the fact you run something.
Let it be Stationary and IC is all I ask. Lets explore all the options of speed, fuel and aplication. Let's talk about producer gas and cooking oil out of turkey guts. Let's see pictures of homes, kids and cottages. Lets keep the door open for all manner of electrical equipment pumping systems and perhaps even Hvac.
When we close the door off topic we risk loosing good ideas and people who will keep the discussions lively and open.
Doug
lets see, what is it....+4 now?
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What bothers me most about the rambling nature of this list is when one posts which is appropriate for that heading and some one throws off the wall crap in and then someone replys effectivly hijacking the thread.. A few more joine in and the subject title now dosent represent crap. It bothers me enough that I now rarley ever read and even less joine in. I have found the list as whole full of usefull suggestions though.
Greg
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"Want to weed out the Listeroid wannabes " well,that takes care of me. I don't have one yet,and with the EPA thing ,I may not be able to get one . Does that mean I'm not welcome,how about the other guys who discover Listers,and cant get one? You guys sound just like Dr Suese's "Star Bellied Sneeches"
I don't suppose that old IHUD9 that I got rusting quietly out back counts huh? Just a tad to fast ------OH well
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and I think GF wants to weed out the Listeroid wannbe's who wouldn't even know which way to crank the thing. Other members have said this privately, and George B. just sees red over this forum because of this.
no, I don't want that.
I just noticed the earliest signs of polarisation creeping in, so commented on it by starting this thread.
Without wannabes and newbies you might as well shut this site down now, no new blood and all that.
however, to be useful it should be easy for people to determine if I am any of the following
a/ someone who owns and runs a lister (oid)
b/ someone who owns and runs something else
c/ someone who doesn't own or run anything, and may or may not be thinking about it
d/ someone who may or may not actually own or run anything, but does sell stuff.
because obviously depending which I am is going to colour anything I say on any given subject, so to do my bit I've just edited my profile and added a sig, stating exactly what I own, and what I'm about.
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To that end I have a suggestion, that we mandate what we are all about right now
because obviously depending which I am is going to colour anything I say on any given subject, so to do my bit I've just edited my profile and added a sig, stating exactly what I own, and what I'm about.
I see no exclusion of any kind. When I came here, I saw a good fit although not exact. Lots of interesting stuff. So I am a member now. So my 10/1 is 1000rpm. Does that mean I will not participate in the auto-shut down discussion? Of course not. We all have a reason to be here and obviously like it or we would have left already. Look around your circle of friends or guys at work. How many are as enthusiastic about this subject as you are? Not many. I need you guys. A few constraints will not mean a thing. Can I answer a repair question exactly on an original Lister? No, but I can weld cast iron pretty damn good.
The premise of what I think Guy is suggesting is to keep us cohesive and strong without loosing it all to the laws of diffusion.
Ok, just my 2 cents.
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The premise of what I think Guy is suggesting is to keep us cohesive and strong without loosing it all to the laws of diffusion.
Ok, just my 2 cents.
yes, and be alert for the signs of specialisation and groupthink and stamp them out
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Thanks Guy,
I like the idea of modifying the "signature" to remind eachother with each post as to what we have, how we are using it, and general future interests/projects. The way the forum is growing, now up to 350 some odd members. I find it difficult to keep everyones machines sorted out in my head. I think it will make it much easier to have a reminder each time. I have actually had to go back & check out previous posts to see what machine they were referring to. It was ok when there were only 50 of us...but now it is becoming a challenge.
Great idea, thanks binnie
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I own an old lister(1927-J) and asked a question here about original colour, Guy was the only member who gave me an answer, and the correct one, the rest of the responses were off subject and no help to me. Like some one said earlier, the sign over the door is Lister, not gensets, diesel, listeroid, etc, lets keep it as a site to learn and help each other in our own interests, thats my two bobs worth.
BK
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I spent so much time in the Listeroid section that it seemed this was a "Listeroid" forum for a while. You go where your need takes you and each section has lots of great ideas. The value to the Listeroid folks (in my opinion) is to have the real Lister knowlege in conjunction with an extremely convenient world-wide meeting place to exchange ideas. A very valuable place if properly managed as Guy is trying to do.
I just hope the result of this discussion keeps all of us in constant mesh with little or no backlash. :P