Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Straight Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: kyradawg on May 24, 2006, 03:12:24 PM

Title: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 24, 2006, 03:12:24 PM
I pour in (canola) into my f-250's fuel tank I dont heat it in any way my truck cold starts EASIER AND QUICKER (tested down to 50*f) runs with more power, smoothness and much less diesel knock. The above statement comes with no ifs ands or buts just simply the truth.


Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: mjn on May 24, 2006, 04:43:53 PM
It absolutely will work.  The biggest risk at injecting cold vegetable oil (VO) into a cold diesel engine is that the oil does not combust completely and eventually ends up in the rings.  Once the engine gets up to heat the VO in the rings turns to carbon.  Eventually, your rings get stuck and stop sealing.  Once that happens, your engine won't start.

This was proven in the early studies of running VO in diesel.   (These studies are still quoted as reasons why you should never put vegetable oil in a diesel engine.)  The problem with these studies is that did not attempt to heat the VO.  Since that time there has been millions of miles driven on heated VO.

You are welcome to do this on your engine as long as you are aware that eventually you will be paying the price.


Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 25, 2006, 03:12:11 AM

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: solarguy on May 25, 2006, 05:07:39 PM
He's right Darren.

Ten minutes on Google will reveal that this has been studied a fair amount by real scientists, and that running unheated SVO is pretty sure to cause long term engine damage, particularly to a direct injection engine.

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: mjn on May 25, 2006, 05:25:47 PM
I let myself be caught in the "studies have shown" trap.  Fair enough, I did a bit of digging.

I think the best resource is a report done at the university of Idaho which summarizes the previous studies.  The report is available here http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/raw%20vegetable%20oils_literature%20review.doc
(sorry for the .doc format).

The conclusion of the report:
Quote
Conclusions
Many studies involving use of un-modifed vegetable oils in blend ratios with diesel fuel exceeding 20 percent were conducted in the early 1980’s. Short-term engine testing indicates that vegetable oils can readily be used as a fuel source when the vegetable oils are used alone or are blended with diesel fuel. Long-term engine research shows that engine durability is questionable when fuel blends contain more than 20% vegetable oil by volume. More work is needed to determine if fuel blends containing less than 20% vegetable oil can be used successfully as diesel fuel extenders.

In general, nearly every study done indicated that there was mild to severe problems when running either straight or blends of vegetable oil.   In every case where a study indicates problems, the VO was not heated, or was not degummed.

Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: ixtow on May 25, 2006, 06:58:17 PM
What studies? Have you personally seen these results or are you just repeating what you've been told? Just sounds like you may be verbilizing unfounded opinion as factual negitive propaganda.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

We're just trying to help out man...  You're right, it'll start and run on old canola...  For about 5,000 miles if you're lucky.  Then you can buy a new block, rings, pistons, etc.....
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 26, 2006, 01:11:59 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Big oil puts out quite a bit of misinformation.

Im gonna keep running my diesels that seem to be running better and better on unheated veggie untill either I have or someone can show me coking problems in a nonstationary engine due to lack of preheating the oil.

Its my take that it is repressive folks (big oil) or people that have been repressed by big oil that believe it is neccessary to modify there engines to run flawlessly on canola oil.

The main reason for said modifications and there precieved "need" is to undermind the fact that a readily available renewable fuel is a better option than what is being offered by those selfish murderious bastards. The fact that modifications are "necessary" kills the gen pop interest.

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: fuddyduddy on May 26, 2006, 02:49:47 AM
Kur Dog,

Will post one more time on this forum.

You sir, are a charlatan; when you define those who advise using the "golden" rules for running vegetable oils in a diesel engine; that is, heating, and/or treating (chemically), and/or diluting, as " selfish murderous bastards", then you sir, have proven that you are 1) NOT knowledgeable about the subject, 2)are incapable of discussing the subject, and 3)should immediately be ejected from this forum, since you do not even own a "Lister" or "listeroid", and your (what you say) is your VERY short time of running whatever you run in your Ford pickup as having any connection WHATSOEVER to reality as concerns OUR Listeroids, etc. Please do us all the favor of refraining from your inane, puerile attempts at information.

Persons such as "hotater", "Dana Linscott", RPG, JohnF, Bob in Nevada, Bob in Washington, and many, many others are eminently more qualified to say what is real than you. They "walk the walk" every day; they provide electricity, hot water, and the comforts of home for their loved ones, and do it without BS or crap about "Mother Gaia", pollution, and so on, ad nauseum.

Your sir, shovel sh**, and even do it without regard for what it is you are shoveling, how you shovel it, or where it lands.

Please do us all the favor of going elsewhere. 

Fuddy Duddy
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Halfnuts on May 26, 2006, 04:24:09 AM
I was happy to ignore him, but since you brought it up, I agree it's tiring listening to the hateful ranting of a bigoted idiot who can't spell.  None so blind as he who WILL NOT see and all that.  "Don't confuse me with the facts.  Big Oil has financed all those studies that are contrary to my religion."

"If I want to extrapolate from my limited experience running undefined WVO in a:

high speed, V-8, direct injection, electronically-controlled 4 valve/cylinder variable speed non-stationary engine, then it stands to reason that my experience should enlighten all you idiot running-dog capitalist pig supporters of Big Oil sucking the lifeblood out of mother Gaia out there running your

slow speed, single or dual cylinder, indirect injection, mechanically controlled, 2 valve/cylinder, constant speed stationary engines.  I mean, what's the difference at the end of the day?"

Peace and Love  ;D
Halfnuts

(I agree the foregoing was neither loving, nor kind, and I'm beginning to feel bad about posting this 'cause this isn't what I'm all about, but I've really had it with this shit)
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: DirtbikePilot on May 26, 2006, 04:32:25 AM
Joel, why are you such a jerk all the time? I mean really, you put people down and get all fired up about something that doesn't even matter. I spent over $3000 dollars on your products and said one thing you didn't aprove of. Now you hate me forever, curse the day you first saw me, and probably wish I was dead. If you got some councelling, you could be a MUCH happier person, but people in your situation almost never push their pride out of the way and get some. It's your loss. You can go around hating everyone all the time, or just enjoy your life. You would thank me every day for the rest of your life if you just trusted me and actually did it. Now, off my soap box....

As for the VO, if you are running it very diluted in regular diesel fuel or biodiesel, then I think he will be ok. It's when people run enough oil to significantly thicken the fuel that problems arise. As long as the oil/fuel atomizes, it will burn just fine.

Darren, are you running pure canola, or just a mixture of canola and diesel? If you are pooring in one gallon of canola with each fill up of about 20 gallons of diesel fuel, I doubt you will ever have any problems. You're injection system will probably last longer due to the added lubricity too.
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Halfnuts on May 26, 2006, 04:38:52 AM
Chris, his point is that Darren's experiences are about as irrelevant as they can be to the subject of running WVO in the engines this forum is named for.  As for who the jerk is, you aren't in a very good position to pass judgment on someone else's character, given your past, so why don't you take advantage of others' experience  instead of taking potshots at them?

Halfnuts
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: DirtbikePilot on May 26, 2006, 04:40:47 AM
Oh Darren, here's a little trick I learned: if you hold down "alt" and then hit 0176 on your keypad (make sure the num lock is off) it will make a little degree symbol ° and you dont need to use *. Cool huh? ;D
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: DirtbikePilot on May 26, 2006, 04:56:45 AM
Chris, his point is that Darren's experiences are about as irrelevant as they can be to the subject of running WVO in the engines this forum is named for.  As for who the jerk is, you aren't in a very good position to pass jusdment on someone else's character, given your past, so why don't you take advantage of others' experience  instead of taking potshots at them?

Halfnuts

Did you read what Joel posted? Was it necessary to say what he said in the way he said it? Darren is just posting his experience, is excited about his results this far, and people are really getting down on him. It's HIS engine. I don't know everything, but I am TRYING to be a nicer person and do what I can to try to help pick a guy back up who had been verbally beaten down without reason.

As for what I said to Joel, I really was trying to help the man. He is a good person at heart, but gets extremely mad over anything. That isn't passing judgement, that's reading what he posted. ??? This forum stuff is such a poor way to communicate. It's like reading every other word in a conversation. When things get heated like this, everything goes to pot.
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 26, 2006, 05:00:18 AM


Peace&Love :D, Darren

Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: mobile_bob on May 26, 2006, 05:26:02 AM
damn i miss all the fun...
been so preoccupied with alternators i havent been keepin up on the rest of the board.

my take on pure vegetable oil in diesel engines, based on instincts and over 30 years working on diesel engines.

 a worn diesel engine such as an old 6.9 will probably burn vo and not do much damage to the engine, the old 6.9 was an indirect injection engine, and if there is enough wear in the injectors and pump, then it probably wont seize anything or cause problems with rings sticking or gumming up. also running a pickup at varying loads and speeds will probably keep most of the carbon blown out. it might also be worth noting that there is likely some engine oil leaking past the rings which will have a tendancy to preignite before injection raising combustion temps and knocking off a bit of carbon also. if i had clean straight vegie oil and an old 6.9 ford pickup i would probably run it and not worry alot about problems...

that being said, i would not under any circumstances run it in a modern 7.3 or 6.0 liter powerstroke or any other direct injection diesel with electronic unit injectors, reasons as follows

1. any acidity or alkalinity that varies from diesel fuel runs the very real risk of damaging very expensive injectors, last i checked can run 400 bucks each without labor to install them.

2. newer lower mileage engines fit tighter and rings may very well gum up, stuck rings cause all sorts of damage, such as burnt pistons and damaged cylinder walls (scoreing)

3. without solid testing of how vegie oil burns, and the flame propagation patterns within the combustion chamber however small it is, there exists the possibility of other problems, such as carbon chunks building up and breaking off and becomeing stuck to the sealing surface of the valves and seats. it only takes one small piece getting stuck under a seat under heavy load and high temps to adhere and cause the beginning of a burnt valve(s)

as far as burning it in a lister or a changfa, i am ok with it. lets face it, it doesnt take long to repair or decarbon one of these engines, and it is easy to tell when there is something amiss in a single cylinder before serious damage has occured. in an 8 cylinder engine, developing compression problems in one hole may not be evident until serious damage has taken place.

also in a stationary engine, usually the at the first sign of trouble the owner shuts it down to investigate, unlike a vehicle where you may not feel the problem in time or be many miles from home pulling a heavy load and decide to try and push or limp it home. And in doing so cause more damage.

as far as conspiracies go and the oil companies:

everyone has heard the story of the 100 mpg carb and how the big oil guys bought the patent rights or killed the guy or whatever.

the bottom line is anyone can modifiy a carb and an  auto to get incredible mileage, anyone!

the problem is one of driveability, startability, and reliability.

you set up a car to get that kind of mileage and no one will want to drive it much less buy it.

with literally hundreds of manufactures all over the world building cars and trucks it becomes insane to think that any one or all the oil companies could squeeze any one of them out. with competition what it is to sell cars if it was possible it would be done.

while i too think big oil is a pain, it is not the boogie man, trying to keep us in a box.

there simply is too many of us and the box is way to small.

there may have been a case or something to look at 40 years ago, when there was only the big three and amc, and the oil companies had enormous clout and connections.

the bottom line is there hasnt been alot of serious, scientific testing, with proper double blind testing on a large enough sampling of automotive engines to arrive at any solid evidence that burning straight vegie oil is ok in an automotive engine. There is however quite a bit of evidence that there are concerns that it will indeed cause problems. So untill there is a large study done no one can say for sure it is safe to do so.

so i guess do so at your own risk.

bob g
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 26, 2006, 10:12:01 AM

while i too think big oil is a pain, it is not the boogie man, trying to keep us in a box.

there simply is too many of us and the box is way to small.

there may have been a case or something to look at 40 years ago, when there was only the big three and amc, and the oil companies had enormous clout and connections.

the bottom line is there hasnt been alot of serious, scientific testing, with proper double blind testing on a large enough sampling of automotive engines to arrive at any solid evidence that burning straight vegie oil is ok in an automotive engine. There is however quite a bit of evidence that there are concerns that it will indeed cause problems. So untill there is a large study done no one can say for sure it is safe to do so.

so i guess do so at your own risk.

bob g

two points, current exchange rate is 1.87 us dollars to the pound

1/ I drive an old renault 19 diesel, I paid 150 UK pounds for it, couple of weeks ago I did a 550 mile round trip, most of it on motorways (fast) and returned 51+ mpg (uk gallons) on that trip. Diesel is 1 uk pound a litre (yes, that's US$1.87 a litre) and a full tank is some 35 pounds, I don't run WVO or VO in this car, even though it is old and cheap, and diesel is expensive, because it is old and cheap and 100% reliable on expensive diesel

2/ we live in a capitalist society, car and oil companies make money selling us stuff, which is why stupid fuel inefficient lumbering great cars are selling today better than even, and peak oil isn't going to motivate an oil company to do anything while they are still able to pump

read up on the Tragedy of the Commons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: rpg52 on May 26, 2006, 04:22:29 PM
Thanks Guy for the opportunity to re-read the Tragedy of the Commons.  Tho my interest in Listers comes from my boyhood on a farm, my formal training was in biology/ecology, and first read Garratt Hardin's essay a few years after it was written.  Sad to say, it is still spot on.  (Check out the topic of internet flaming near the bottom!)

Unfortunately the essay and it's understanding of how human societies behave are often misunderstood today, we humans haven't changed.  Many of the current tragic trends are a consequence of our ignorance of how to manage resources.  (e.g., the genocide in Darfur is competition between farmers and grazers, the slave trade in Cambodia is a result of their population climbing from 6 to 14 million in one generation, the past genocide in Rwanda came from one of the highest population densities in Africa, oil wars in the Middle East, etc., etc....

Getting back to the topic at hand, WVO use as fuel is a choice, but really, the only reason they can be considered is that they are a side product of our huge, lumbering economy.  If veggie oils are cheap enough, they can be used as fuel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they ultimately make sense over the long term.  Yeah, I'm well aware of the CO2 argument, but they are only available because they are a waste product of fried food, (which used to be a luxury food because of the cost of the oil, until relatively recently.)

Personally, I don't use WVO because I hate working with grease, and avoid it if possible.  For those with free access to it, good luck to you, but I seriously doubt that using WVO is going to save the world.  IMHO, when petroleum prices make human labor feasible again, we can all get back to doing the drudge labor that employed most of our ancestors for the last 10,000 years, and our populations can again come into balance with available resources.  Yeah, I'm gonna hate it too, but what are you going to do?   ???

Meanwhile, back at the farm, if I can only fix the tractor hydraulic problem, I'll be able to unload my listeroid/generator from the back of my pickup and mount it on my foundation.  Then I can finish my sawmill and look foreward to my declining years as a gentleman farmer/sawyer.  Really doesn't make much sense, but it's a lot of fun!  :P
Ray
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Thomas on May 26, 2006, 05:36:16 PM
Ray whts wrong with the tractor?   Tom T
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kpgv on May 27, 2006, 01:58:29 AM
Hi Kdawg,
I've been trying to "understand" your obtuse "out of nowhere" takes.
I noticed you occasionally post to another list, and there, you are courteous, and not too prolific, yet "that" forum is much more useful, and "grooved" to your "deal".
What's different here?
Just curious.

Kevin
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 27, 2006, 02:15:15 AM

Peace&Love
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kpgv on May 27, 2006, 02:25:41 AM
You used the "I" word...own it.
Also "Murderous Bastards", which is a noose I will allow you to "hang" yourself on if you chose.
As I recall, previously, you have also accused  (parphrasing here) "importers and dealers of ripping off buyers".
Stay away from that "fuel grade ethanol". It's NOT a good thing.


Kevin
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Firebrick on May 27, 2006, 08:10:59 AM
Kyra
I would have to agree with the obtuse statement, not exactly ignorant, but you seem to want to make or incorporate the highest tech into a very simple engine.  Ruins the whole point/purpose if you ask me.  Also if you wanted to lower your dependence on big oil why buy a such a large truck?  Why not a hybrid or a scooter? Burning alcohol or Vegtable oil does not change your consumption of oil, it just places it some where else(natural gas for fertilizer and chemicals, fuel for the tractors, fuel to transport and process the crops)  Or are you just upset at the prices they charge? 
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 27, 2006, 03:19:51 PM
Brick,

It has nothing to do the with costs of dino based fuel I would gladly pay double for a fuel that isnt so expensive.

Im fairly confident that it takes more energy to provide 1 gallon of refined crude oil to my neighborhood station than it does to bring one gallon of canola to my grocery store not to mention the huge reduction in emissions that bio-fuels allow.


The truck is actually the most efficient vehicle I could have chosen. I inherited the truck from my father saving us the energy that would have been used in the production of a new vehicle. My F-250 came to me with 150,000 miles on it when I got it now has 180,000 and is just starting to feel broke in. I use only vegetable oil based lubercants in the engine as fuel and lube as well as in the transmission as hydraylic fluid and as soon as I create a suitable viscosity modifier I will be using it in the front and rear axles as well. All the systems in my truck perform better than they did with mineral oil based lubes.


As far as adding "tech" to these simple engines I simply strive for mechanical perfection as I see it.


Obtuse? definitly! But the alternative definition= BLUNT and really proud of it ;).

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: sawmiller on May 27, 2006, 03:39:58 PM
Hey Dawg

How much does that gallon of canola cost.

Tim
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: GerryH on May 27, 2006, 03:50:15 PM
The wonderful smooth running SVO, WVO thing--
I had to smile remembering my own experiences. I was running a small gold mine in the arctic, and the fuel farm was across the swamp from the mine and mill. No problem, I had a Nodwell and 1000 gal tank. (for those who don't know, a Nodwell is like the worlds largest snowmobile. Twin tracks 36 in wide and a 10ft deck)

It had a 6 cyl Ford gas engine, and I had no gas.
I would have to fly it in, and we would have to shut down till the plane came.

So--I knew I could run on diesel. I filled the tank and started it up. They run like they are cold, lean, and badly advanced under load. At no load they are the quietest, sweetest running engine you could want. I decided I would never bother with gas, this was too good to be true!

One day after hauling a load of fuel, one of the men came rushing up and said "The nodwell is pouring out crankcase oil!" I looked and found the crankcase full to overflowing with diesel fuel that had washed past the rings and diluted the oil. Only some of the lighter fractions of diesel burns with spark ignition.

Sometimes things are not as good as they seem at first.

Oh, BTW, you can also run a Stihl 045 chainsaw on straight diesel and it also keeps the bugs away.
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 27, 2006, 05:00:55 PM
Gerry,

On the two stroke cycle note Ive done some experimenting with two stroke lube oils.

I took a stihl sting trimmer and inserted a digital thermometer inbetween the cooling fins on the cylinder head I then mixed up a small batch of premix with brand X mineral oil two cycle lube. I fired the trimmer and allowed it to idle until the temperature stopped rising and stablised noting the sound and idle quality and most importantly temperature then I held the trimmer at WOT again untill the temp stabilized noting sound and temperature. I did this until all the fuel was gone.

I then mixed up another batch of premix using olive oil. They used to use peanut oil back in the day due to its low molecular weight that lends to low piston crown deposits. I chose olive oil because it has an even lower the lowest in fact molecular weight of readily available veggie oils. I then repeated the above tests.

The trimmer ran five to 10 degrees cooler on olive oil lube, the temp is directly related to engine friction the lower the temp the less the friction. The olive oil allowed less engine friction. The trimmer was MUCH more responsive to throttle inputs had a better idle quality and seemed to attain a higher maximun rpm.

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 27, 2006, 05:02:27 PM
Tim, Ive found bulk (by the ton) canola for $1.50/gal

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 27, 2006, 05:37:16 PM
Brick,

It has nothing to do the with costs of dino based fuel I would gladly pay double for a fuel that isnt so expensive.

Im fairly confident that it takes more energy to provide 1 gallon of refined crude oil to my neighborhood station than it does to bring one gallon of canola to my grocery store not to mention the huge reduction in emissions that bio-fuels allow.


The truck is actually the most efficient vehicle I could have chosen. I inherited the truck from my father saving us the energy that would have been used in the production of a new vehicle. My F-250 came to me with 150,000 miles on it when I got it now has 180,000 and is just starting to feel broke in. I use only vegetable oil based lubercants in the engine as fuel and lube as well as in the transmission as hydraylic fluid and as soon as I create a suitable viscosity modifier I will be using it in the front and rear axles as well. All the systems in my truck perform better than they did with mineral oil based lubes.


As far as adding "tech" to these simple engines I simply strive for mechanical perfection as I see it.


Obtuse? definitly! But the alternative definition= BLUNT and really proud of it ;).

Peace&Love :D, Darren


I have a saying for you.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

it feels like I've met a million people like yourself over the years, all evangelising about some miracle fuel or product they have discovered, I used to get into a serious scientific / technical discussion with them and explain why their miraculous results were meaningless scientifically, because they weren't testing the right things in the right way, and only noting superfluous stuff that didn't tell the story, but happened to back up their version of events.

Nowadays I just leave them to it, sit back, and wait for the inevitable.

The inevitable being when they go quiet / disappear / come back with tales of woe.

Even in the few months I've been on this forum I've seen three or four people go quiet.

Course, they *might* just be busy elsewhere making a million out of their thing.....

----------------------------------------

You want to even have the most fundamental and simple pre-requisites to support your argument, stop talking right now.

Strip your truck into components, blueprint and document everything (that'll cost you about 20 thousand bucks in equipment and calibration of same and a month or two in time, then run it hard, 100,000 miles a year, on each fuel, while making meticulous records of abolutely everything, then strip it and blueprint it again and analyse the results.

All you've done so far is prove you're a tightwad who took a good truck and ran it on generic consumables for a paltry 30,000 miles, and it ain't died yet. THAT, my friend, is a scientific fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: rpg52 on May 27, 2006, 05:44:08 PM
Ray whts wrong with the tractor?   Tom T

Tom - long story, the shortest version is, while lifting a log, it suddenly lost hydraulic power.  I did the following:   1) pulled the controls and had them rebuilt - it had been 40+ years;  2) pulled hydraulic pump, replaced various seals & gaskets;  3)  tested pump with 3000# gauge attached directly;  4) replaced main line from pump to controls;  5)  made tool and attached gauge to pilot relief valve to adjust.   None of these actions had any effect on the problem, in which the system only buillds ~3-400# pressure (even though the pump develops 1500#+) and whines loudly when one of the control levers is applied. 

I now believe the problem is in one of the individual (non-adjustable) relief valves for each control spool.  I've been told that the poppet can stick or not seat and allow pressure to bleed past the controls.  I'm going to take them apart individually and try to find a bad one, lacking that (I've also been told they may not look bad, but still allow fluid to pass), I'll just try replacing them all.  It's been a year and a half, and I'm really getting tired of the whole thing.  Incidentally, the tractor is a '59 International T-340, one of the smallest crawlers made (5' wide) with a 4 in 1 bucket.

Still thinking positive  ;D
Ray
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 27, 2006, 06:20:51 PM
i'd put money on the spool being the problem, likely cause is filters failed or sat too long, or, condensation in tank caused oil to acidify, so check your breather too, and flush and replace the oil, fit new filters etc

btw if one spool is gone, likelihood is others are going too, so do em all.

not an expensive job once you've got new seals etc, but please please remember everything must be surgically clean, so no smoking over it, no blowy dusty day, no grimy hands or tools or clothes.

HTH
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Thomas on May 27, 2006, 07:52:18 PM
On some of the 340's there was a pressuer reg. block these things woud go bad and do just what you are talking about. A friend of mine has one sounds like the same set uo four cyl gas. Cant get parts for it any more but it still works as long as I can keep it running for him. Check and see of there is a reg. block in it and if there is take it apart and see if it has gone bad.   Tom
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Jim Mc on May 27, 2006, 08:18:47 PM


...I would gladly pay double for a fuel that isnt so expensive....


Reading your posts just makes my brain hurt.

Anyway, keep avoiding the fuels made from petroleum by evil people, thus making more of it available for me.

Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: kyradawg on May 27, 2006, 08:25:25 PM
lol

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: rpg52 on May 27, 2006, 10:34:50 PM
Tom & Guy,
Yeah, my first action was to take off the controls with the 3 spools and have a reputable hydraulic repair shop rebuild them.  Supposedly, they all looked ok, they did find a piece of rubber from one of the cylinders packing, but other than that it looked fine.  Regarding the pressure regulating block (one of the big problems is that every manual I read has a different name for these things), if I'm correct, this is the same as the pilot relief valve?  It is adjustable and regulates the pressure for the entire bank of hydraulic spools. 

I had to make a tool to adjust it, basically a 3/8" pipe, cut on the end leaving two tits that engaged the adjustment.  It had to fit over a threaded screw and inside a threaded bore to engage the adjustment.  I adjusted it in and out without any change to the problem.  I think that only leaves the relief (check?) poppets for each spool.  Supposedly after 40 years of wear, they can wear to the point of sticking and allowing the flow to avoid the rams.  I suppose I should take the whole damn thing off again, but that took half a day last time.  I'm hoping I can just take them out and see what I can see.  I replaced the filter and all the fluid a couple years ago, probably should have done it when I bought it in '84, but oh well.

Regarding parts, since International went under, it has gotten harder, and there may be esoteric transmission bearings or something that are impossible, but Case and various other manufacturer's still carry most of the parts.  The challenge is finding the part # and paying the bill.  I just bought a steel tube and seal for the hydraulic pump - 1" diameter, 2" long, $40 plus shipping.  What are you going to do.   :P  On the other hand, I just rebuilt the engine several years ago and it runs like a top now.  It is the only tool I have that will pick up the 1000# of my listeriod and ST5 gen head, carry them up the hill and place them in the frame I have bolted to a concrete foundation.  Soon I hope.   :)
Ray
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: GerryH on May 28, 2006, 02:24:03 AM
International parts are handled by Coneco Equipment or anyone dealing with Dresser equipment.
I just sold a 25 yr old TD15 and I got anthing I wanted thru Coneco.
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Thomas on May 28, 2006, 02:42:52 AM
I have a td35 that I would like to find an engine for. I would like to restore it to like new it ran when I got it 25 years ago and it was an old beast then. Cant find an engine for it though. It was in storage elsewere and thay let the engine fill uo with water for me well you know the rest. It was bilt long befor the td9's will find one some time.  Tom T 
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: rpg52 on May 28, 2006, 03:17:41 AM
Thomas,
A bit off topic but, oh well.  Check out these links below for IH tractors.

That was interesting about Coneco Gerry, I'll check them next time I'm stuck for parts.  There are so many of the old IH tractors out there, a lot of other manufacturer's have gotten in the biz.
Ray

http://www.ytmag.com/farmall/wwwboard1.html

http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums//index.php?showforum=9
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Thomas on May 28, 2006, 05:15:55 AM
Sorry about that.  Tom
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Joe on May 28, 2006, 02:41:41 PM
Back to being off topic on the tractor hydraulics.  I would disassemble the relief valve that you had less than ideal results when you adjusted…pull the guts out and clean it. You should not have to take it out of the system…just unscrew the adjustment all the way and it should disassemble…its not Rocket Surgery in there.  Quite often a bit of debris can sit near a poppet or valve seat and when an momentary overload (lifting a log) should cause it to open that debris might get caught and not allow the poppet to reseat entirely. Think of your foot in the door and trying to shut it.  If the entire system were low and all else checks out especially the pump…then I would suspect a relief somewhere in the main line.  If it were a single cylinder that was low I’d look at the relief on the control valve for that circuit.

Joe
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Tom on May 28, 2006, 11:31:37 PM
Ray,

I used to have a TD6 with a Drott 4 in 1 bucket, but it cracked a head and was not worth fixing. I ran into a problem similar to what you mention on a Case backhoe it turns out the hydraulic filter disintegrated and was blocking the intake. It might be worth checking? 
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: rpg52 on May 29, 2006, 01:09:16 AM
Hi,
Joe - I took the relief valve apart several days ago, after I had tried adjusting it, didn't find anything. 

Tom - I changed the filter a couple years ago - the old one was grungy w/sludge, but I wouldn't think the new one could have gotten too dirty, esp. since it hasn't run more than 10 hours or so since then.  I've completely changed all the hydraulic fluid since then too, when I took out and examined the hydraulic pump a month or so ago.  Replaced the pump pick up when I checked that.

Thanks for all the suggestions, you can see why it is making me so crazy.  Didn't get to the other relief valves today, hope to try that this coming week.  It has got to be a chunk of rubber or a worn poppet in a relief valve, question is, which one?  I'll find it soon, have taken apart almost every piece at this point.
Ray
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Thomas on May 29, 2006, 04:33:31 AM
Good luck with it Ray if I was close to you I would give you a hnd witth it but I dont thank I am so hang in there you will win and let us know what it turns out to be.  Tom T
Title: Re: IS AWESOME
Post by: Ironworks on June 06, 2006, 11:47:50 AM
The wonderful smooth running SVO, WVO thing--
I had to smile remembering my own experiences. I was running a small gold mine in the arctic, and the fuel farm was across the swamp from the mine and mill. No problem, I had a Nodwell and 1000 gal tank. (for those who don't know, a Nodwell is like the worlds largest snowmobile. Twin tracks 36 in wide and a 10ft deck)

It had a 6 cyl Ford gas engine, and I had no gas.
I would have to fly it in, and we would have to shut down till the plane came.

So--I knew I could run on diesel. I filled the tank and started it up. They run like they are cold, lean, and badly advanced under load. At no load they are the quietest, sweetest running engine you could want. I decided I would never bother with gas, this was too good to be true!

One day after hauling a load of fuel, one of the men came rushing up and said "The nodwell is pouring out crankcase oil!" I looked and found the crankcase full to overflowing with diesel fuel that had washed past the rings and diluted the oil. Only some of the lighter fractions of diesel burns with spark ignition.

Sometimes things are not as good as they seem at first.

Oh, BTW, you can also run a Stihl 045 chainsaw on straight diesel and it also keeps the bugs away.




I drove 250 miles on diesel in my 1978 F150 with the straight 300 six cylinder.  I put it in by mistake in the middle of a really bad snow storm.  I happened to be traveling the direction of the storm and I needed to get home.  The truck ran rough but it ran...lol.  I made it also.  Funniest thing I ever seen.  Then I drove that truck to Phoenix Arizona and back.  That happend about 8 years ago.  The truck is still running today.  I like that engine.