Amarbir
all i can say is wow!
very informative and very honest look into the issues with the engine business in
your country.
quite interesting,
my very best wishes to you, i suspect there are many here that would be thrilled to have contact with you, offer idea's and feedback on the lister engines.
thanks for taking the time to post
bob g
Amarbir
Sir I have been thinking of you and what happened to you .
You posted quite a little and then nothing.
I agree with bob WOW.
Hope you can help your people and yourself gain the knowledge that will make your lives better.
You can count on this forum and it's members to be behind you 100%
You need to take note of the upcoming outage as this forum is moving to a more reliable server it was off line for a while good thing you did not come looking to post a week ago as it was offline.
It might be possible to do business with you as this country needs quality parts. If you could supply them and the shipping and banking banking problems can be overcome in one form or another.
All my best to you and your hopes for a better way of life Using the lister-oid.
Billswan
Amarbir
Love your web site, photo's and frustrating story. Let me know when it finished so I can read up.
Can I hire Pal to overhaul mine? :D
Dave
Good to hear from you again Amarbir. If I may offer a suggestion to start your business. Setup a store on Ebay and start selling quality spares in US and other nations. Given the weight of Listeroid parts a method of low cost shipping is the key to competitive pricing. Due to the EPA new engines can not be sold here, however it is ok to buy all the parts to build one. Also since many dealers are now gone a reliable source of spares is key to keeping our engines going.
After you acquire your genuine Dursley Lister, you could build a web site to show how the Indian parts can be used on the original machines. That will greatly expand the spares market for you.
Due to all the rotating mass of the Listeroid engine, when coupled with the correct alternator, it is ideal for starting submersible pump motors in deep wells.
Good luck with your projects, you sound like a man who can get things done.
Amarbir
Very comprehensive website showing your progress.
Please keep us posted as things progress.
well done,
veggie
let me start a list for you
1. induction hardened cylinder liners would be nice
2. pistons
3. piston rings
4. rod big end brgs, without the upper shell grooves or holes would be really nice
as well as the standard type with the holes and grooves
5. injectors and injection pumps, high pressure injector lines
6. bronze cam idler gears
7. valves, springs and keepers, and those little valve caps
8. gaskets and rubber seal kits
those are a few of what would be my favorite things, if i had a lister!
how are you at sourcing metro petteroid parts? or transformer controlled alternators
and their repair parts?
i am sure many others will give you a better idea as to what the needs might be.
bob g
You would also find a good market for Lister parts in the UK but we would need parts to fit the UK built Lister engine.
I would be interested in buying good quality castings from you, as the original Dursley castings are no longer available.
This company makes many of the bearings sold in the UK, and they appear good quality.
http://www.vasantbrass.com/main.htm
from what you have reported the 4-1 refers probably to 4 compression and 1 oil control ring, and 3-2 refers to 3 compression and 2 oil control rings
also the different spec's for cylinder liners, apparently india produces common liners
as well as hardened liners
my bet is every engine ever built for export to this country gets the cheapest cylinder liners available, and most engine's would surely benefit from the hardened ones.
it does not appear that the extra cost for a hardened liner is significant, at maybe a 10% extra cost?
if i had a listeroid, i would be ordering the higher quality and more expensive parts from you!
a hard liner, higher quality piston with 4 compression and 1 oil control ring, plain bottom end brgs, a dipper to feed oil into the big end, a bronze camshaft idler gear,
one of xyz'ers offset idler bolts, a head gskt from gaskets to go, and a careful, clean and to spec assembly might well result in an indian lister that would be far superior to
anything we have got here in the past.
i think you might well be able to do some business with folks here and over at
www.microcogen.info , you might want to post over there as well
i know i am going to post a cross link over their to your post here!
thanks
bob g
Hello Amarbir,
You would also find a good market for Lister parts in the UK but we would need parts to fit the UK built Lister engine.
I would be interested in buying good quality castings from you, as the original Dursley castings are no longer available.
One of the problems you will find is that there is a difference between some of the Indian and British parts. One example is the 8/1 rings you have listed (3x1). These will fit the Indian made 8/1 but the British engine has a larger top ring.
This company makes many of the bearings sold in the UK, and they appear good quality.
http://www.vasantbrass.com/main.htm
They would also supply the ‘Bronze cam gear’ that Bob mentioned.
QuoteYou would also find a good market for Lister parts in the UK but we would need parts to fit the UK built Lister engine.
I would be interested in buying good quality castings from you, as the original Dursley castings are no longer available.
This company makes many of the bearings sold in the UK, and they appear good quality.
http://www.vasantbrass.com/main.htm
Whilst not yet having had to resort to using any internal cloned parts on my own lister CS engines, I have incorporated them into engines I have rebuilt for other people who were more sensitive to OEM prices. Having researched various suppliers and always being prepared to pay for 'export quality' I have to date sourced these parts myself from India, and they always represented a significant cost saving compared to cloned parts that are presently available in the UK.
Hence I totally agree with you there. If someone such as the OP who is based in India, and who appears to be familiar with the Rojkot Listeriod scene was prepared spend the time and build a business on supplying spare parts compatible with original CS engines that are of a known quality and consistency from companies such as you have identified, there would be significant demand in the UK (and elsewhere) from Lister CS enthuisasts who just cannot afford OEM prices. It would also bring some much needed competition to the UK market, where there is presently only one well known supplier of Listeriod parts.
May I first say welcome back Amarbir :) I had been wondering where you had gone? I think you will do well as a dealer in parts since you know the situation in Inda better than anyone here could know it. I think you would be wise to go the Ebay route as they are a trusted venue or at least be set up with PayPal a trusted courier of funds. I see that one of the parts vendors in India has been selling a few parts on Ebay, I think it is Devon? They have fuel pumps and a few other items for sale now.
Hello Amarbir,
You would also find a good market for Lister parts in the UK but we would need parts to fit the UK built Lister engine.
I would be interested in buying good quality castings from you, as the original Dursley castings are no longer available.
One of the problems you will find is that there is a difference between some of the Indian and British parts. One example is the 8/1 rings you have listed (3x1). These will fit the Indian made 8/1 but the British engine has a larger top ring.
This company makes many of the bearings sold in the UK, and they appear good quality.
http://www.vasantbrass.com/main.htm
They would also supply the ‘Bronze cam gear’ that Bob mentioned.
Bottleveg ,
I Agree To That Believe Me thay have so many models of everything not only castings ,If someone can show me what they want i can hunt that down .Why do you people need castings ? . Are the original once having issues .Well We Can Always Hunt Fro Stuff For Friends Like You Whatever you like .I Would Like To Have a Original Lister CS .I Hope Someone in UK Can Sell Me One .Well You Are Getting vasantbrass products in uk cos some so called dealer might be importing it from them and selling them ,I gurranty you that there are far superior people and material in my country .
Hello Amarbir,
You would also find a good market for Lister parts in the UK but we would need parts to fit the UK built Lister engine.
I would be interested in buying good quality castings from you, as the original Dursley castings are no longer available.
One of the problems you will find is that there is a difference between some of the Indian and British parts. One example is the 8/1 rings you have listed (3x1). These will fit the Indian made 8/1 but the British engine has a larger top ring.
This company makes many of the bearings sold in the UK, and they appear good quality.
http://www.vasantbrass.com/main.htm
They would also supply the ‘Bronze cam gear’ that Bob mentioned.
Bottleveg ,
I Agree To That Believe Me thay have so many models of everything not only castings ,If someone can show me what they want i can hunt that down .Why do you people need castings ? . Are the original once having issues .Well We Can Always Hunt Fro Stuff For Friends Like You Whatever you like .I Would Like To Have a Original Lister CS .I Hope Someone in UK Can Sell Me One .Well You Are Getting vasantbrass products in uk cos some so called dealer might be importing it from them and selling them ,I gurranty you that there are far superior people and material in my country .
Hello Amarbir,
The main casting that suffers in the UK is the cylinder. It cracks due to coolant water being left in the engine during freezing temperatures.
Here again there is a difference. The UK Lister has seven studs that bolt the cylinder head down.
Other castings are broken through misuse or lost. And then there is the occasional crank failure that cracks a few castings.
The UK cylinder has the four main studs screwed into the crank block but also has another three smaller ones screwed into the cylinder, so it has seven studs to hold the head down.
I found this photo. Looks a bit like my workshop. :D
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerCinderford.jpg
It doesn’t give a very good representation of a cylinder but I thought it would be interesting.
The photo shows a type of cylinder that started to be used in the late 50’s, with exposed main studs.
The UK cylinder has the four main studs screwed into the crank block but also has another three smaller ones screwed into the cylinder, so it has seven studs to hold the head down.
The UK cylinder has the four main studs screwed into the crank block but also has another three smaller ones screwed into the cylinder, so it has seven studs to hold the head down.
The 8/1 Listeroid I got from Gary at DES has the same stud arrangement and the cylinder is unsleeved. Therefore /someone/ in India is making castings like this. Whether it's a perfect drop-in replacement on a Genuine engine, I couldn't say....
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.
Well every lister has a dipper right .
" .Also What You Mean By "xyz'ers offset idler bolts" .Well In India We Have Great Gaskets But No One Bothers To Send Or Export Quality here ,Same On People .True If you Assemble a engine From quality Parts There will be no regrets and i confirm this ,I have experienced this myself .
I found this photo. Looks a bit like my workshop. :D
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerCinderford.jpg
It doesn’t give a very good representation of a cylinder but I thought it would be interesting.
The photo shows a type of cylinder that started to be used in the late 50’s, with exposed main studs.
The UK cylinder has the four main studs screwed into the crank block but also has another three smaller ones screwed into the cylinder, so it has seven studs to hold the head down.
Well,
From This Picture I Could Not Understand Or See Those 3 Small Nuts To Referred Too
Well every lister has a dipper right .
" .Also What You Mean By "xyz'ers offset idler bolts" .Well In India We Have Great Gaskets But No One Bothers To Send Or Export Quality here ,Same On People .True If you Assemble a engine From quality Parts There will be no regrets and i confirm this ,I have experienced this myself .
XYZER dippers are hollow forcing extra oil to rod bearing.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/alldippers2.jpg)
The camshaft idler gear (#45) is bolted to the case with the cam idler bolt (#44) also holding the tapered roller bearing main housing.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/GOVPARTS.jpg)
The offset bolt was designed to correct the incorrect location found on all "Listeroids" of the Idler bolt causing excessive gear train backlash.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii31/xyzers/xyzers%20stuff/camboltpost.jpg)
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.
Sir ,
I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved
Sir ,The bolt has a offset/eccentric/ idler gear bearing surface that corrects the location of the idler gear caused by the incorrect placement of the bolt hole for the idler gear bolt. The head of the bolt has a resivor that holds more oil to lube the idler gear. The original bolt has a slot cut to collect splash oil for the idler gear. There is no connection with the tappets.
Understood The Dipper ,But The Idler cam bolt is different how from the indian once you said .Also you are talking of more oil reservoir "for The tappets " ,I Could Not See The Same in Pictures ,Sorry i am very unfamiliar with the english terminology
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.
Sir ,
I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved
The Indian cylinders have liners or sleeves in the bore. The UK cylinders don’t have this liner. The bore is part of the casting. The bores were chrome plated (until towards the end of production) along the area were the rings travel.
By ‘plain bore’ I’m referring to an un-plated or un-chromed bore.
Sir ,The bolt has a offset/eccentric/ idler gear bearing surface that corrects the location of the idler gear caused by the incorrect placement of the bolt hole for the idler gear bolt. The head of the bolt has a resivor that holds more oil to lube the idler gear. The original bolt has a slot cut to collect splash oil for the idler gear. There is no connection with the tappets.
Understood The Dipper ,But The Idler cam bolt is different how from the indian once you said .Also you are talking of more oil reservoir "for The tappets " ,I Could Not See The Same in Pictures ,Sorry i am very unfamiliar with the english terminology
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.
Sir ,
I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved
The Indian cylinders have liners or sleeves in the bore. The UK cylinders don’t have this liner. The bore is part of the casting. The bores were chrome plated (until towards the end of production) along the area were the rings travel.
By ‘plain bore’ I’m referring to an un-plated or un-chromed bore.
Well,
This then Means That The Indian Lister Copies Are Better in This Depart .Atleast They Have Changeable Liners So Instead of throwing away the whole iron mass we people can actually change liners .
Yes a removable liner would be better. However, the original chrome plated cylinders were extremely long lasting. When they finally wore out they were re-bored +10 and oversize piston and rings fitted. If Lister carried out the work they would also re-chrome the bore.I want to explain this a little more for Amarbir's benefit.
Yes a removable liner would be better. However, the original chrome plated cylinders were extremely long lasting. When they finally wore out they were re-bored +10 and oversize piston and rings fitted. If Lister carried out the work they would also re-chrome the bore.I want to explain this a little more for Amarbir's benefit.
First, it is worth mentioning that the original Lister CS engine was designed for extremely long life in a primitive (agricultural) setting in UK and for export. The reasoning was that it was better to make the engine very durable and inexpensive to run at the expense of a higher purchase cost.
By this reasoning, Lister elected to cast an integrated cylinder and water jacket and then apply their proprietary chromium plating to it. In combination with plain iron piston rings this provides an extremely long life for the cylinder, as the piston rings (cheap and easy to replace) wear much more quickly than the very hard chrome plate of the cylinder bore. A Lister CS with weak compression will generally need just some valve work and a replacement of piston rings before it can be returned to service.
I can think of three reasons why the Indian manufacturers of listeroids chose to change to a separate wet sleeve cylinder and water jacket:
- It was cheaper to make the water jacket separately and dig out all the casting sand, then press the cylinder into the water jacket than it was to make the cylinder and water jacket together, which was the most complicated casting on a Lister CS
- It was easier to make a round cylinder out of a round centrifugal casting than it was to bore a stationary sand casting with inclusions and voids to be round and smooth
- Industrial chromium plating is both difficult and somewhat expensive. A properly plated cylinder bore is one of the more difficult forms of industrial plating, and it is possible that nobody in India knew how to do the Listard process (which was apparently nothing more than reversing anode and cathode currents for a few minutes at the end of the plating cycle to erode the bore plating for oil retention). Now we have other, cheaper methods of hardening a cylinder bore surface, such as nitride treatment or electric induction hardening. The original chrome plating procedure would be OK too, if properly done.
The one weak point of the Lister CS in colder climates is that it does not tolerate freezing well, and the water jacket often cracks when water is frozen in the engine. This is what our British correspondent is noting, and why there is a demand for new cylinders in the UK. To be honest, I don't think there's a disadvantage to a properly machined wet-sleeve cylinder compared to the integral cylinder casting of the originals. But there are qualifiers there - the holes in the water jacket casting must be square to its top and bottom faces, and the cylinder bore must be a close fit in those holes with a well-defined O-ring relief in place. I would arrange for a tight slip fit and use RTV and a flange seal rather than O rings, but hey-I'm a 21st century guy.
You know I could never understand why the Brits did not use antifreeze... my Listeroid sits in -30C awaiting its call to duty, with no freezing issues.Well, ethylene glycol antifreeze only appeared in 1926. I believe it was a DuPont offering, which would have made it an expensive foreign offering in the UK market. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a process patent on the production of ethylene glycol at the time.
First, it is worth mentioning that the original Lister CS engine was designed for extremely long life in a primitive (agricultural) setting in UK and for export. The reasoning was that it was better to make the engine very durable and inexpensive to run at the expense of a higher purchase cost.
By this reasoning, Lister elected to cast an integrated cylinder and water jacket and then apply their proprietary chromium plating to it. In combination with plain iron piston rings this provides an extremely long life for the cylinder, as the piston rings (cheap and easy to replace) wear much more quickly than the very hard chrome plate of the cylinder bore. A Lister CS with weak compression will generally need just some valve work and a replacement of piston rings before it can be returned to service.
I can think of three reasons why the Indian manufacturers of listeroids chose to change to a separate wet sleeve cylinder and water jacket:
- It was cheaper to make the water jacket separately and dig out all the casting sand, then press the cylinder into the water jacket than it was to make the cylinder and water jacket together, which was the most complicated casting on a Lister CS
- It was easier to make a round cylinder out of a round centrifugal casting than it was to bore a stationary sand casting with inclusions and voids to be round and smooth
- Industrial chromium plating is both difficult and somewhat expensive. A properly plated cylinder bore is one of the more difficult forms of industrial plating, and it is possible that nobody in India knew how to do the Listard process (which was apparently nothing more than reversing anode and cathode currents for a few minutes at the end of the plating cycle to erode the bore plating for oil retention). Now we have other, cheaper methods of hardening a cylinder bore surface, such as nitride treatment or electric induction hardening. The original chrome plating procedure would be OK too, if properly done.
The one weak point of the Lister CS in colder climates is that it does not tolerate freezing well, and the water jacket often cracks when water is frozen in the engine. This is what our British correspondent is noting, and why there is a demand for new cylinders in the UK. To be honest, I don't think there's a disadvantage to a properly machined wet-sleeve cylinder compared to the integral cylinder casting of the originals. But there are qualifiers there - the holes in the water jacket casting must be square to its top and bottom faces, and the cylinder bore must be a close fit in those holes with a well-defined O-ring relief in place. I would arrange for a tight slip fit and use RTV and a flange seal rather than O rings, but hey-I'm a 21st century guy.
Interesting to note that Lister's JP series (as they later became known) which slightly preceded the CS range, did use separate cast cylinder liners with I believe the same patented "Listard" chrome plating for longevity. I'd heard about the current reversal at the end of the process to create a minutely pitted surface, but this is the first confirmation I've read of that.I read about the Listard method here - don't have anything positive from an original source on this, although I suspect someone in UK would know. It's intuitively obvious, though, electrochemical etching isn't exactly an unknown process.
You didn't mention improved heat transfer when plating the bores directly, although this may be more relevant to air cooled engines. I was involved with Italian built Moto Guzzi V twin motorcycles for many years. They went one step further in the 70's providing chrome bores by plating directly to the alluminium cylinder barrels, claiming better heat transfer over the plain cast iron liners they were also using around that time. This was only partially successful as many suffered the chrome peeling from the surface, however they later developed far more successful "Nikasil" bores, plating with nickel instead.
Regards - Richard