Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Original Lister Cs Engines => Topic started by: rleonard on June 08, 2010, 01:22:02 PM
-
After nearly a year of patience and waiting, I was able to acquire this 12-2, #5001227 Lister. This engine shows very little signs of wear and virtually no abuse. It was installed improperly with a drive pulley at the end of the crankshaft. With a tight belt, it quickly fatigued and cracked the crankshaft. It was removed from service and has been sitting ever since. The former owner was keeping it to restore for his personal collection. Sadly he passed away suddenly and it never got to achieve his goal.
There are a few missing parts and some things need to be tidied up, but this will make a fine engine. I should have most of the spares I need.
I believe that someone allowed the keyways to be wallowed out on the flywheels. They were remachined with taper lock bushings. Also, I've not seen a Lister flywheel casting with pulley attachment lugs on it before.
After the customary kerosine bath things started to look much better.
Bob
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2304-1.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2308.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2313.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2314.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2321.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2325.jpg)
-
More pictures
End with broken crankshaft
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2326.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2328.jpg)
Looking better inside
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2323.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2339.jpg)
-
COOL ;D You got your work cutout for ya :D :D
-
Hi rleonard,
What a great project. I'm really glad you found it and not me. As I read your thread and looked at the pictures I wondered if just maybe this crankshaft was bad the day it was forged. Nobody is perfect - even Lister.
Casey
-
I got the new crankshaft in to the block today. Bearings perfect, fresh seals and gaskets. Pistons are fresh and alloy! They must have been replaced shortly before the engine was pulled from sevice. Cylinders are perfect and rings like new. I'll run a hone thru to lightly deglaze and start putting things back together.
I want to put in fresh rod bearings. Thought I had some in my spares but none there. Need a HP line too. Central Marine out but a new batch sitting in customs in NYC.
Bob
-
Hi Bob. Don't forget to increase your bump height to accomodate the thermal expansion of the alloy pistons. I returned your call and left a msg on your cell ??? Good to hear from you and nice engine !!!!
-
Oh and a very very diabolical idea you have there of riggin' up the battery and coil to the crank handle to make a redneck electric starter :D I like it !!
-
Here is Bruce County. The first course of action would be to stick weld that cracked crank without taking anything apart. Then start the engine and hand hold a grinder to smooth out the weld bead.
-
Hi Bruce. It was well established that the engine had excessive loading at the end of the shaft. The crank was fatigued (45 degree crack) and much larger when I got the oil seal ring and main bearing off. I did that by putting the shaft in the press and straightening it so the bearing would slide over. The end of the crankshaft orbited about an inch at the end before straightening. A replacement crank was part of the deal. It is right now and something I don't have to worry about.
On the other hand, I have a slightly used crankshshaft available....LOL
I got into the heads. Never seen exhaust ports so clogged with carbon. Amazing that it could run at all. Choked off at least 2/3rds of the cross section area. Now one is nice and clean. The other on tomorrow.
-
Oh and a very very diabolical idea you have there of riggin' up the battery and coil to the crank handle to make a redneck electric starter :D I like it !!
HA! I had just delivered a New Holland that needed battery and coil for ignition. Had that for the test run.
-
Hi Bob. Don't forget to increase your bump height to accomodate the thermal expansion of the alloy pistons. I returned your call and left a msg on your cell ??? Good to hear from you and nice engine !!!!
Your Pistons expand?
Mine must shrink lol
-
Not too much done today. Need fresh rod bearings before setting bump clearance. Might have them tomorrow.
Specs are different for 6/1, 12/2 compared to 8/1, 16-2. The 8 and 16 run alloy pistons and run at 850 RPM. 8 and 16 do not have changeover valve so I believe that added space is to slightly reduce the fixed compression ratio.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2341.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2342.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2343.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2344.jpg)
-
The added bump height is certainly provided for aluminum pistons elongating when hot. If your piston is shrinking you should see your Dr. ;D This engine has been gone through before by the P.O. The 600-650 engines had cast iron pistons only.
-
You are absolutely correct Paul. I know that the engine was gone thru shortly before the crank failure and obviously alloy pistons were installed. May have been an availability issue or using what parts were on hand.
I see that vendors are offering two different styled of big end rod bearings. Standard and steel backed for "heavy flywheel" engines. Anyone have experience with the two?
More than likely this had standard OEM Lister bearings installed. There is metal separation in one place of the bearing. (will snap a picture later) Heavy flywheels will be used.
Bob
-
If your using the heavy flywheels then install the heavy duty bearings, that's what lister specified.
My lister 6/1 generator has heavy flywheels and I fitted new heavy duty big end bearings when I rebuild it.
I believe its only the top sell that's different.
Cheers
Matthew
-
rleonard,
Great thread and really good photos.
Thanks
-
Do you think the crank could be welded and remachined and re keyed
I have a 12/2 Runs like a swiss watch!
Have a guy looking for a crank for a 12/2
-
The crankshaft is of no value to me. If someone wants to take on the project of a repair, you can have it. Probably 2 inches would have to be cut out because the crack is diagonal.
Bob
-
I was thinking about that broken crank. Could it have the broken end cut off then faced true then be drilled and tapped for an aux pulley. Obviously the pully/crank should be machined with a step for centering but it could provide light duty power for something. Left hand thread required too ;D
-
Hi Paul,
The crack is right at the end of the bearing. In between the bearing and the flywheel. Now that it is out, I'll snap another picture of it. Anything can be repaired with time and money. If I had to repair this, I would look at replacing the shaft all the way back to the crank throw. Cut the shaft off at the throw, machine a press fit for a new shaft, push it in and weld both sides, anneal, cut a new key-way.
Bob
-
I has to try some added lighting and different angles to show the break clearly. 45 degree failure usually indicates a torsional fatigue issue. Regardless it could be repaired but I'd take it back to the throw and replace the entire section.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2371.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2369.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2368.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2366.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2364.jpg)
-
My rod bearings that I was waiting for came in today. That enabled some progress, albeit slow and tedious. Setting piston to head clearance was the first job. That took me a good part of the afternoon and I got it on the second pass. Now I could set the heads on, snug up the manifolds to straighten the cylinders, and draw down the head. Valve train was next and the new injectors installed.
The flywheels are stripped of several coats of paint. I have to go over them with the wire brush before I mount them on the crankshaft. I hope to have that done tomorrow. Then comes the fuel system and governor linkage overhaul.
Bob
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-17202456.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-17202432.jpg)
-
Coming together nice !
-
Flywheels on today and started in on the fuel system. The filter and lines are all clean and in place. Made the bracket for the small fuel tank. I pipe in provisions for a remote tank hookup. Until this engine gets a permanent home, the small Petter tank will do. Oil is in, the troughs are full and the oil pump is primed and pumping.
Looks odd with the 25 inch diameter heavy flywheels on. They are HEAVY!! I have to use the engine hoist or forklift to budge them.
Bob
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-18204047.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-18204034.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-18204058.jpg)
-
Bob in the shop. Another Lister episode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFXEPmYXBIg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qanr4A7vm9Y
-
Bob in the shop. Another Lister episode.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFXEPmYXBIg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qanr4A7vm9Y
Awesome - Thanks for the links
-
Good job bob ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Bob...Those are the same flywheels that come on the 6/1's with the "electric" flywheels. Part of the reason why the SOM's are so heavy.
Stan
-
Nice job!
However, I'm curious about one thing:
Aren't the alloy pistons lighter than their iron counterparts?
Won't the balance be off since the crank presumably has counter weights calculated for iron pistons?
Thoughts?
Again, nice work.
Steve
-
How the flywheels came to be on this engine is a bit of a puzzle. The serial numbers on the wheels do not match the engine tag, so it did not leave the factory this way. They are a set of wheels for a twin because the "factory" stamp for the #2 cylinder injection timing mark is there. The keyways were damaged at one time and the wheels were fitted for Browning tapered bushings. IIRC the wheels were machined by an Amish machine shop in Pennsylvania.
My friend George overhauled this engine shortly before the crankshaft problem. After the crank failed, some other engine was installed and this was probably a trade in. He knew that it was in good shape and was keeping it for his personal collection. Sadly I lost him about a year ago and further history on the engine went with him.
Several local Amish wood shops had Lister twins driving line shafts that ran various equipment. There were complaints that the uneven firing of the twins caused issues with the equipment and the finishes of the wood. The heavy flywheels may have been an effort to address this.
Most shops have now gone to more powerful, multi cylinder engines with hydraulic, pneumatic, electrical, or mechanical drive systems.
Regarding the pistons, Singles up to 6 and twins up to 12 HP came with cast iron pistons. When speeds were increased to 850 RPM for higher output, alloy pistons were fitted to reduce reciprocating mass, stress on the rod, bearings, etc. I do not know exactly why this engine was fitted with alloy pistons at rebuild. Perhaps it was what was available or in stock. They are standard size and like new, as were the chrome rings and cylinder bores.
Although there is a mass difference between the iron and alloy pistons, at slow speeds the effect on balance is dampened by the mass of the engine. It seems pretty smooth to me!
Bob
-
Bob,
Thanks for the tidbits.
I'm jealous as I'm trying hard to find a 12/2. Will likely end up shipping one to the US from the UK...
Again, very nice work.
You have a nice engine there!
Sorry to hear about your buddy.
Regards,
Steve
-
The difference in piston weight should not be an issue since one is always going in opposite direction to the other on a twin. On a single it would likely have more effect.
-
Great job Bob. The engine sounds real nice.
I have an original 6/1 I’ll get around to restoring one of these days. Did you have to replace the felt seals in the main bearing housing? If so where did you source them? I need some.
On my engine there are also pre-lube plugs in the main bearing housings. Does your engine not have them? I noticed they were not part of your pre-lube routine. Maybe they’re just an inspection plug put on some engines.
Thanks, Geno
-
Hi Geno, thanks for the kind words.
The Lister manual states to pull the cover off and manually oil the mains (including the center bearing) and fill the troughs. Pumping the external oil pump lever on the single acomplishes the same thing (no trough to fill). There are screws on top of the bearing housings. You can lube them there as well.
My felt rings came in a gasket set. I may have a spare pair or know where I can get a set. I'll check and let you know.
Bob
-
Of course, the pump. I forgot about that.
Thanks for checking on the felt rings. They might be available from Stationary Engine Parts but by the time I got them to the US it would be a lot of $ for a few ˘ of material.
Thanks, Geno
-
very nice / and you could start the engin with 1 hand? hu hu my 16/1 requires 2 hands and it's still hard to get over the compression stroke
-
I have stripped off a couple of layers of paint and getting ready for a fresh coat of Tile Clad, a high solids epoxy finish. Not done masking, but getting there.
Bob
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/1277416667924.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/1277416649504.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/1277416635937.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2378.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2377.jpg)
-
I was asked what paint system I use. This primer, then this High Solids epoxy top coat.
http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=B50NZ6
http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=STORECAT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=B62WZ113
Bob
-
Today the weather was perfect for shooting paint outside. Mid 80's, very light breeze from the south and clear sky. Finally, no rain in the forecast! I had to take advantage of all that.
In primer:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-25131944.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/2010-06-25131937.jpg)
A couple of hours later I could top coat it;
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2380.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2382.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2384.jpg)
The hot sun helped set up the epoxy paint pretty quick. Dry to the touch but far from cured. I could do some basic assembly this evening;
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2386.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/IMG_2385.jpg)
Bob
-
The decals arrived from England Monday. I got them on and will take glamor shots as soon as I can.
Bob
-
I am planning to take the engine to a local show (or two) while it is all shiny and clean. I built up a "water tower" looking drum stand and mounted it all up on the trailer. I should be at Oblong Illinois, maybe Altimont, and possibly Portland.
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/_DSC0471.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/_DSC0470.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/_DSC0465.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/_DSC0467.jpg)
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x161/rleonard1/Lister%2012-2/_DSC0466.jpg)
Youtube clips coming next
Bob
-
Here are a couple of clips off the cell phone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1-9jPlDwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD7wt_rMRfo
Bob
-
I am curious about your upper water manifold. On my 16 it is a built up affair of 3 fittings, 2 hoses and a slew of jubilee clips unlike the one piece that is on your twin. Any clue as to why the 2 different styles ?? Maybe the 10/12 engines had a one piece and the faster ones had the ass'y ?? Looking good anyway Bob. Liked your video tour too !! P.
-
Sharp eyes Paul! That is another lower coolant manifold modified to fit at the top. I like this arrangement better than the 3 piece Lister setup with the rubber hoses, clamps, etc.
Bob
-
Great job !! A twin is my must have list !
There is one observation I have made though. AFAIK, the water inlet to the engine from the cooling tank should be horizontal ?
Would love to hear this under load.
-
Mr. Leonard, where did you find those bungs for the barrel and are they a good leak proof system ? I have a green plastic barrel that I was going to use for the 16.
-
They are 1-1/4" bulkhead fittings. Sometimes called a Tank Flange with Gasket. Got them from the local farm store in the plumbing area. Come with a gasket and the inner nut. Add a hose barb and you are good to go. About $10 for the pair.
Drill in a 2 1/4 hole with a holesaw and thread the nut on. All done!
Bob
-
Wow Bob, that is one fantastic looking engine now! and with the proper transfers on it looks better than new. I'm in awe.