Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: Jim Mc on May 02, 2006, 02:02:31 AM

Title: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Jim Mc on May 02, 2006, 02:02:31 AM
Even at $70+/barrell, crude oil seems like a bargain.  Anybody have any stories or experience burning it in a Listeroid?  And where could a guy buy some to try?

Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Doug on May 02, 2006, 02:09:42 AM
Peter Singfield on the gassification list runs his China diesels on filtered crude. Some carbon problems he says but nothing a good scrape can't solve.


Doug
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Ironworks on May 02, 2006, 02:18:11 AM
The pre-diesel engines were crude oil engines.....Known as "hot bulb" engines. 
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: rgroves on May 02, 2006, 04:25:54 AM

I have a couple photos of a 1920's DeLavergne that runs on straight crude. Bore 10", Stroke 18", 25 hp at 280 rpm.  Flywheels are 4 feet diameter.   Belongs to an old guy who restored it in this little town where I live. Since i can't figure out how to post them to this damn site, I'll gladly send them to anybody who wants to see a great old diesel engine.  And another DeLavergne that's really large (17 inch bore, 28 stroke, two cylinders, and total displacement of 5.8 bushels)  at a museum near here.  Last I saw it running, it was digesting cheap canola from the grocery store.  My wife dragged me away from it, whimpering a little.

Russell
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: binnie on May 02, 2006, 04:43:17 AM
Russell,
Pls send me any picts you have on the old flywheel machines.They are the neatest thing on the planet. tks binnie
dunhill@sympatico.ca
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Ironworks on May 02, 2006, 10:44:10 AM
I'd like to see them too.  I have a Bolinder twin cylinder 50 hp.  It used to power a sawmill. 
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: hotater on May 02, 2006, 02:53:43 PM
Russ and others---

Here's a website we can post pictures to.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Lister06

the user name is   Lister06  and the password is   lister
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: rgroves on May 02, 2006, 04:11:34 PM
Thanks, Jack, for the webshots link.  I posted 5 images of two Delavergne diesel engines.  These were taken last August at the Mennonite Heritage Museum in Goessel, KS.
They have a large collection of engines and old farm equipment on display, and every year they let collectors bring in even more stuff to show and run.  Hit and miss, diesel, steam, horse drawn -- if it has moving parts and it's old, you'll probably find it there.

The big twin was running on straight canola when I was there.  Every power stroke shook the ground a little. They fire it up late morning, and the smell of burning veggie oil gets people coming first to see the engine and then to buy fried treats at the food booth.

The smaller engine was running on light filtered crude.  It was a real treat watching the operator fire it up, because he sorta climbed onto the flywheel and put a lot of body English into turning it.  it didn't look to me like he was bouncing it against compression like some guys do, just pulling it through with the compression released and then letting inertia do the rest.

Extremely cool.  if any of you have a chance to visit an old engine show, do it and you'll have a great time.

Russell
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: hotater on May 02, 2006, 05:28:05 PM
Russ---

I'll do that!  I've never been to an old engine show but have seen the locals at the fair with their collection of NEAT old stuff.  There's one 5000 cu. in. single tractor that blows perfect BIG smoke rings on every firing stroke.  That draws a crowd if the wind is calm!

WOW!!  great stuff!
Here's the link to the page--

http://community.webshots.com/user/Lister06

Just a warning to everyone-- webshots is serious about no copywrited pics on their site.  They removed pictures of MY gun work that had been published in magazines!!
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: akghound on May 03, 2006, 05:39:23 PM
Here are the pictures of the engine
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10039/normal_Large%20Diesel%20Flywheel%20Engine%202%7E0.jpg)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10039/normal_Large%20Diesel%20Flywheel%20Engine.jpg)
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Firebrick on May 04, 2006, 02:46:44 AM
They can run light crude through Cat 3600 engines with a special preheating and filtering system.  No reason that it wouldn't work on a lister.
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: solarguy on May 04, 2006, 07:50:36 PM
I don't think there are any technical difficulties that could not be overcome to burn light sweet crude in a Lister.

My primary concern is that, to get the advertised price of $73 per barrel you might have to buy a tanker load.

Also, please note that a "barrel" of oil is 42 gallons or 160 liters, not 55 gal, as is tempting to assume.  So suddenly, you're almost at two bucks a gallon.  In light of that, it's amazing that gasoline is as "cheap" as it is.  Bottled water costs more.

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2006, 03:16:33 AM
US gallon is 3.79l or 128 ounces our gallon is 4.55l or160 ounces, this ment a lot of two cycle engines got the wrong oil mixture before we went metric .....

Doug
Title: HFO?
Post by: Bikerbob on May 10, 2006, 12:15:09 PM
How about the marine HFO (Heavy Fuel Oil)?
Like tar when not heated, has to be up to about 150 degrees C (300F) to get the viscosity down for injection. Can the pump and injector handle that?

Why I ask? I can get 1000 gallons (US...) for FREE, if I just pick it up! :o ;D
Thinking about mixing with standard diesel (50/50?).
Just have to make some serious filtering first, just in case...

Any ideas or comments?
Title: Re: HFO?
Post by: rgroves on May 10, 2006, 02:37:28 PM
How about the marine HFO (Heavy Fuel Oil)?
Like tar when not heated, has to be up to about 150 degrees C (300F) to get the viscosity down for injection. Can the pump and injector handle that?

Why I ask? I can get 1000 gallons (US...) for FREE, if I just pick it up! :o ;D
Thinking about mixing with standard diesel (50/50?).
Just have to make some serious filtering first, just in case...

Any ideas or comments?

Worst that happens, if the Lister doesn't like it,  is you have something to burn in a waste oil heater.  Or you could start one of those fly-by-night driveway paving companies.  I hear those guys make a bundle.  ;)

rg
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: swedgemon on May 10, 2006, 07:51:07 PM
#6 Fuel Oil varies greatly in specific gravity and in how clean or dirty it is...serious filtration is required before going thru a diesel injection system.  Getting rid of the asphaltines (small-to-large lumps of "tar") from the filtration or centrifuge system can be a major landfill problem.  The engine must be started and shut down on #2 FO and the #6 FO must be heated to about 150-180 degree F to get it to flow well and burn correctly.

I'd stick with #2 FO, used hydraulic oil, used ATF, used veg oil, used motor oil, etc.

Swedgemon
GM-90 6/1
Somewhere in Kentucky
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: solarguy on May 10, 2006, 11:42:42 PM
Asphaltines eh?

I love learning esoteric new vocabulary. 

Not bragging here, but I have a pretty good and well rounded vocab.

You guys have added to that more and faster than any other venue in a long time.

That IS a compliment.

finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on May 11, 2006, 12:44:29 AM
Take that 1000 gallons of energy!
You will figure out how to use it one way or the other! Blend/heat/filter/ or use it in the fireplace to start the logs....whatever. Energy = $. About $3000 by todays prices, which is not a bad day's work.
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Bikerbob on May 11, 2006, 07:47:52 AM
Take that 1000 gallons of energy!
You will figure out how to use it one way or the other! Blend/heat/filter/ or use it in the fireplace to start the logs....whatever. Energy = $. About $3000 by todays prices, which is not a bad day's work.

I'll go for that! Grab it, and make use of it, one way or another!

Just have to figure out a way of pumping the stuff... It is sitting in a cold (12 degrees C, about 53F) tank...
Giver says it's like "really slow flowing"...
No, heating the tank is not an option... Or maybe I have to...

Filtering is already identified as being a major task.
On the other hand, there is no such thing as a free lunch...

Starting and stopping on normal diesel (Sulphur free, 0,001% sulphur is STANDARD here in sweden for road vehicles!).
Running the Listeroid on a blend of Diesel, #6 fuel oil, Biodiesel and used engine oil... Probably I need a shed full of tanks, valves, filters and pumps to do it, but hey, it's free...  :P
No, but seriously, 20-50% of #6 feels like it can be within reason.

Just have to figure out how to pump the stuff...  :-\
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: dkwflight on May 11, 2006, 10:37:49 AM
Hi I dreged up a memory of steam lines going to an underground tank to heat the bunker oil so it would flow and be pumed to the burners in a school I attended once. alomst like an aspalt plant. A loong time ago ;D
anyway here is a site that claims good results for their product for bunker oil.

http://www.priproducts.com/index.htm

I know some crudes are a lot nicer than the bunker oils. I think useing crude is pretty much an individual thing. What will be required iis dependant on the field supplying the oil.

Dennis
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Doug on May 11, 2006, 07:03:02 PM
I remeber one time years ago my boss got his hands on some Bunker C fuel oil.
The idea was we could run it threw the cracking pots and make lighter fuel oil out of it.

It was like glue, and we warped the floor pot trying to get it toflow and crack lol......

Doug
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: swedgemon on May 12, 2006, 03:38:25 PM
Bunker C (#6 FO) is what is left over at a refinery after all of the desireable hydrocarbons have been stripped out of the crude.  At some refineries they have #6 FO as the end of the process...at other refineries they have "coker" units, where they crack off every last liquid hydrocarbon, leaving "coke", which looks like charcoal (nasty charcoal).  That coke is sold to power plants, cement plants and other various industries as solid fuel to be mixed with coal, or is further refined and sold to aluminum plants as carbon anodes.

Getting back to the #6 FO, the previous comment about some crude oils, right from the well head, are much better fuels than #6 FO, is valid. 

For reference, the typical 42-gal barrel of crude is refined into:
 19.3 gallons of gasoline
 9.3 gal of diesel fuel/#2 fuel oil
 3.0 gal jet fuel
 2.9 gal #6 fuel oil
 1.5 gal asphalt
 1.2 gal petrochemical feedstock
 1.2 gal LPG
 1.2 gal coke
 .75 gal kerosine
 .63 gal lubestock
 .92 gal wax and "other"

Crudes out of Venzeula (sp?) as usually very asphaltic, while those out of Nigeria are considered "sweet", on and on and on, causing the above percentages to vary...makes burning peanut oil or canola oil look attractive, no??
Swedgemon
GM-90 6/1
Somewhere in Kentucky
Title: Re: How about Crude Oil
Post by: Doug on May 12, 2006, 06:53:53 PM
At the end of the process at Pheonix we had coak. It went to land fill because of the high metal content from refining waste oil.

Doug