Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tlfrantz1 on August 10, 2009, 11:15:56 PM
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Since we are about to get socialized medicine here in the US, I was wondering if the Brits and the Canadians on the forum could advise us of what we have in store...
Thanks!
Tommy
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Since we are about to get socialized medicine here in the US, I was wondering if the Brits and the Canadians on the forum could advise us of what we have in store...
Hmm... I guess the best way to answer that is to consider the four ways of getting something:
1: You spend your own money, buying something for yourself
In this case, you'll generally seek out the best compromise between affordability, quality, and functionality. You'll end up with pretty much the best value deal available which meets your exact circumstances and requirements.
2: You spend someone else's money, buying something for yourself
In this case, you'll go for the best that money can buy.
3: You spend your money, buying something for someone else
In this case, you'll buy the cheapest you can get away with.
4: You spend someone else's money, buying something for someone else.
Do you honestly give a flying f**k what you get? It's not your money, and you won't benefit.... Probably the first thing that crosses your desk will get bought... or the product from the company which bribes you the best.
Guess what number socialised healthcare is? Hint: It's not a prime number...
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Sigh...
We are about to get socialized medical INSURANCE.
Not socialized medicine.
There is a difference.
And either way, I would submit that SOMETHING needs to be done, because the status quo is simply not working...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111676259&ps=cprs
Steve
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Sigh...
We are about to get socialized medical INSURANCE.
Not socialized medicine.
There is a difference.
And either way, I would submit that SOMETHING needs to be done, because the status quo is simply not working...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111676259&ps=cprs
Steve
Thats sure a tear jerking story ,BUT socialized anything and it WILL fail given enough time..............................................
Those lines will just get longer and longer as government socialization just slowly destroys what we do have..
Billswan
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Bill,
I don't disagree.
However, 45 MILLION uninsured people is inexcusable imho.
At least it's an attempt to get folks covered.
Even if it's only emergency coverage with a $8k deductible, it would still be better than nothing.
And I, for one, don't mind helping my neighbors out if they get sick or injured; and if that means part of my tax money goes toward that, then so be it.
I'm smart enough to realize that it costs more money to not help, and then have to pay for it anyway once they go to the emergency room, than to treat 95% of the issues before they become major illnesses.
Just my $.02,
Steve
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Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance. The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !! Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!
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Bill, I know they are calling it 'insurance', but what I've seen and heard is that they are after a single payer system which means that gov't. will pay for all and as a result, will control all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Erushlimbaugh%2Ecom%2Fhome%2Fdaily%2Fsite%5F080409%2Fhome%2Emember%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
And here's Barney Frank:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98
I'm very worried that all other options will be taken off the table and the gov't. option will be the only one. I also find it telling that gov't. officials won't be under this plan that Obama's proposing...
In Canada and GB, are illegal aliens covered under the NHS?
Tommy
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Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance. The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !! Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!
Compig
How may years has nhs had a strangle hold on the citizens?
Was there or is there any private Insurance for health available ?
Thanks for your time!!
billswan
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Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance.
This is a common mistake, but NI doesn't actually pay for the NHS. A small portion of NI is ring-fenced (about 1% IIRC) for the NHS, the balance coming from general taxation. NI is actually supposedly for the payment of unemployment; but actually it's a giant Ponzi scheme - and is treated as general tax income by the government (successive governments).
The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !! Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!
The NHS has never been good, per se - it's always been adequate at best, downright dangerous at worse. Unfortunately, it's become such a political football that it's probably impossible now to do what's needed, which is to scrap the whole thing and replace it with private provision, optionally topped up by government vouchers (which you "buy" by paying your NI stamp, or whatever).
How may years has nhs had a strangle hold on the citizens?
Was there or is there any private Insurance for health available ?
Bill,
The NHS has been going for approximately 60 years now. It would be wrong to claim it has a stranglehold, although it is the default healthcare for a majority of UK residents.
Private healthcare is available, most notably through Bupa, but any number of insurance companies will offer you private care using a mix of NHS, Bupa and other providers.
As a system, it's far from ideal, but it is better than many
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However, 45 MILLION uninsured people is inexcusable imho.
The real number is no where near 45 million Americans , the 20 mill + Illegal aliens are not Amercans and cannot be counted , subtract the number of young people that choose not to have health care (young , cheap , stupid etc) and the number is drasticly lower
And I, for one, don't mind helping my neighbors out if they get sick or injured; and if that means part of my tax money goes toward that, then so be it.
I keep hearing libs make this same statement, If his is truely the case then do you give all your money to the uninsured or poor currently ? If so thats great but what makes you think you have the right to do the same with my money ? I personaly dont care how many unsinsured persons there are , Here in the US everyone is gaurenteed medical attention period.
I currently pay $900 monthly for full coverage insurance for a family of four, medical, dental, optical and perscription , its insurrance I shopped for from at least 20 different options, I did the leg work to choose a plan i liked , made the deal and pay my own way . Everyone in this counttry has the same options , its not rocket science.
We all hit the ground naked and broke and those of us that choose to make our own way and do well in life can buy the things we want , those that dont are rewarded for their laziness and lack of drive with a goverment check , but at no point should that be my problem .
If a person chooses to sit on their ass and collect goverment assistance while I am working 15 hours a day 7 days a week how in the hell are they entitled to a portion of my blood and sweat?
We currently reward the lazy here in the US with free housing and food on the backs of those that get up everyday and produce , keep this up and those of us that actualy pay are just going to give up and sit on our asses like the those "45 million", then lets see where we will be . I guess then we will add vat tax and carbon emmision tax and pretty much tax (and regulate) every other aspect of life like our friends across the pond.
It amazes me that we left a country because of the strict controls and heavy taxation , Every single person here or at least their ancestors settled here to get away from heavy handed goverment control, yet there are still folks that want the goverment involved in every aspect of our lives . It just amazes me .
While on the subject of tax payer provided welfare programs , why in the hell are welfare recipents not tested for drugs, alcohol and ciggarettes? I have a neighbor on welfare and medicade (or medicare not sure which) who receivers free housing, power and phone are payed , food stamps . All here medical needs are taken care of , since she has self induced cancer from 30 yrs of cigg smoking. We the taxpayers are shelling out an average of $6k per month to keep this woman taken care of yet she still smokes and drinks .
If your going to havve a welfare program that hands out the money of hard working people , would it really be that hard to require the recipeants to be drug , alcohol and smoke free? And why are all the cars in the project nicer than mine???? When I ride past the goverment housing near by everyone has a big screen tv visible thru the front window , yet we have a crappy old 19" am i the only person that sees a problem here? This socialized single payer health care is just like swabbing a fresh coat of paint on an old wood hulled boat that leaks like a sieve , it may look pretty but its not addressing the problem.
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If you cant tell I am a Reagan conservative, not a Kool-aid drinking product of NPR
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Well.....
Socialized medicine as written up in the House Bill currently being debated does have a few of your reccomendations.... ;)
The bill does have a comittee to determine what 'quality of life' the patient has left, and the cost of treatment will be weighed against that. Maybe unemployed drug and alcohol abusers who smoke will be 'provided for appropriatly'...? Quality of life criteria means Rationing. That will mean refusing care to some people.
Cutting out health care for retirees and folks that don't follow the approved lifestyle guidelines will mean they will die sooner and less social security / welfare will be paid out. That's a 'win-win situation' ....for the budget. Right now the US is having a budget crisis. The baby boomer bulge is reaching retirement, and the $50 trillion cost has never been set aside to pay for it, even though the services were promised to us. You could blame who ever is responsible, including ourselves, but the result is the same. Our kids and grand kids will have to pay for it....or we will have to start doing without. I believe this is the Dems method of controlling this cost, plus fulfill a desire to get an iron grip control over the population. The Dems are going to have to do it, because the media shouted down any Repub attempt to control costs, few as they were. Getting elected means making promises. This is such a Hot Topic that the it is politically impossible to pass unless the party that cooks it up has the Presidency, the Senate and the House. Even then the Supreme Court will need to be on board.
Like carbon 'cap & trade', it will be rife for coruption. Did you vote 'correctly' during the last election? Well then! I think you need to review your voting and come back after the next election to resubmit for that treatment!!! Um..maybe we didn't have that in mind, but the proposed "Card Check" for Union Organizing is esentially an open ballot on a clip board that everyone else can look at. If 'O' would ask for it on behalf of Unions, is it such a stretch to think that it could have wider appeal?
As we have seen in the EU, Cap & Trade did nothing to reduce emissions, yet fleeced Europeans on energy costs. That's a program that could only be thought up by a criminal mind. Oh! Wait! Ken Lay of Enron cooked up that scheme to sell his money losing wind power. Even though Enron is gone and Ken is dead, His idea lives on because it is a get rich quick scheme for the powerful. These same people are planning your healthcare future.
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Simple answere Canadian style medicare is rationed health care and it is underfunded health care.
Politicians will cut spending on health care to pay for other things and you will wait longer.
BUT it does eventualy get the job done and it is cheaper in the long run ( its a very lean system I mean the squeeze every dollar ). The question is can you keep your politicians honest and funding the system at a level that reflects the American need for the " best right now ".
I'm not sure you can afford that.....
But its good for me if you go that way.
It will curb the amount doctors make in the US once the spendng cuts starts. This will prevent a lot of Canadian doctors from going to the USA to make the big money and driving up the labour cost here. If this infact translates into more doctors I don't know but it should styart to level the playing field for health care.
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It should be clear that GE has picked up right where Enron left off , I know I voted correctly but we got a socialist anyway
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politicians cant run their own housholds , SS or anything else they get their hands on , what makes anyone think they are cabaple of playing the role of doctor and CEO ?
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US Socialist Organizations:
US Department of Defense. (fascist as well - look up the definitions if you can stop working and saving the world long enough)
All public police agencies. (fascist as well) Try opting out.
All public fire departments. (fascist as well) Try opting out.
US Postal Service. (quasi fascist as well) Who’s better?
No wonder we’re failing.
Please keep our multi-million dollar insurance CEOs in their private jets and off shore bank accounts. Please keep our deluded junior capitalists believing they have control of their medical programs other than submission or cancelling their policies.
Am I a liberal? I have too much respect and admiration for J. Christ, T. Jefferson, B. Franklin, G. Washington, B. Obama and other ultra-liberals of their time to say anything other than a very proud YES!
BioBoy
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thats quite a stretch putting obama in the same group as JC!
maybe you should go back and do a bit more reading about the teachings of JC
i seem to remember him having compassion, yes, for those that could not provide for themselves
the crippled, blind, mamed... but
he had no tolerance for those that just wanted a free ride.
obama has benefited from a free ride his whole life, much like all politicians,, at least 90% of them anyway
as for being proud of being a liberal???
don't even get me started down that path!
i too was once a liberal democrat,, but guess what?
i grew up! i paid the price for voting for the peanut farmer, and rectified that in the following election
i have a certain understanding of the healthcare system, and my insurance costs are astronomical as are my wifes this year,
and i can see the attraction of having a free for all health care system, but
i am realistic enough to realize that if obama has his way, no matter how good they want it to be, it will spiral down to about
the same level of service as the US postal service, and the Dept of motor vehicles...
then we will be seeing on the news how some dr or nurse went all "medical" and used an uzi to kill dozens of patience at a clinic.
i don't know what the heck is going to happen, but hopefully i can take care of myself long enough to see
another true conservative take back control of this government from the idealistic children that have somehow duped the american
public into voting them into office.
yes i am a conservative and damned proud of it!
bob g
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Dear Mobil Bob,
We all know you labor daily to provide for the welfare of the world. We all know that liberals have given nothing for your benefit and are free riders of society. How do you make time to poop out these contributions to LEF?
I’m not totally down with everything about most members of my list of liberals. What they had in common was a liberal philosophy and lifestyle for their times. Remember, the peers of Jesus so hated him that they gave him capital punishment. I’m sure your right wing whacko needs can appreciate the death penalty.
If you think living in a dominantly Asian community and being black is a free ride then please step away from the mirror and look at other people’s challenges. (Hawaii is only 30% white or black not to forget Indonesia’s race distribution.) Obama is either incredibly (in the full meaning of the word) lucky or he’s damn good. Oh, he did get the free ride that comes with being deserted by your father at birth and your mother before adolescence. Some guys just got it so much easier than you or I.
Back on task: Medicare management costs = ~3%. Private Insurance management costs = ~19%. Gosh Bless you “pay more - get less” fundamentalists. All important tasks in the United States are delegated to a socialist form of economic structure.
I’ve got the violins ready! Please respond.
Burns
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maybe you should go back and do a bit more reading about the teachings of JC
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Amen Brother Bob
he had no tolerance for those that just wanted a free ride.
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Jesus or Barack?
i grew up! i paid the price for voting for the peanut farmer, and rectified that in the following election
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Ah Yes! Mr. small government and spend less himself - Ronald Raygun. Well, at least he got those pestky solar panels off the roof of the White House. (Should it still be called the "White" house?) Didn't he trade weapons of mass destruction for drugs?
When you find a better mail system than the USPS please let me know the name and location. Motor Vehicles are State and/or County problems but do wear the socialisti crown.
BioBoy
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Just like your average Brit, I don't suppose the average American would recognise "small government" if it hit them in the back of the head with a rounders (or "baseball" as you insist on calling it ;)) bat.
Just like almost every non-totalitarian government out there, the US & UK governments are both out to simply promulgate themselves. If they were McDonalds or Microsoft, we'd sue the arse off them for being an abusive monopoly.
Libertarianism is where the future lies, I think - and before anyone goes off on one, you may wish to note that libertarian is NOT the same thing as an anarchist, and nor is Libertarianism even remotely close to being Anarchy.
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We live in an era where the Uber rich and multy nationals can move money around with easy an you and I can not.
You and I pay taxes.
Uber rich and multies pay lobby groups.
I don't for conservative value parties because they would not apear to care fore the little guy trying to get a head.
But tax cuts wow they like that and privatize and deregulate they like that too....
The theory of Tax cuts deregualtion and trickle down ecconomics still dominates the right. Sadly all I see as the end result of that is lost spending power for the midle class as they are forced to pay more and earn less.
The left on the other hand has only ever had one kick at the can in my country in the early 90s and the worst recession of that time preety much helped them spend up huge debt and little else.
The center is interesting because it simply shifts around like a ship with no rudder and a minorty gov is much the same. Thats what we have now...
This has little to do with health care. So let me make a clear point to my US friends. YOU CAN'T GO ON with what you have now its too expensive and too many people are slipping through the cracks. Sooner or later you have to stop blowing billions on making insurance/health care companies rich.
I pay high taxes and I have to wait for elective health care like 3 months for my sinous surgery. But If I get mashed in a car or lung cancer from work the system will put me at the top of the ration list and care for me. In the end I won't loose my home or end up in never ending debt. My son was delivered by a good doctor, another one put tubes in his ears another one checks him over now and tells my wife whe worries too much about snifles and fevers.....
I will probably wait for new knees and assorted plastic joints but I don't care because the system has served the most important thing to me I will ever have to worry about. My son is healthy so is my wife and so am I and as long as I don;t mind a wait from time to time for something thats not life threatoning I never have to worry about how I am going to pay for things. And my health insurance premium ( TAX ) is a real good deal to me in that light.
The system is not perfect for sure if we paid a bit more and had a little competition is the right places the wait times would be far less and it would still cost less of our GDP than the US Free for all system.
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Conservative , Liberal , Labour , Communist , whatever , they are all the same ,ONCE , they get elected !! Politicians are all the same breed using a different marketing technique to brain wash the majority into voting for them. UK party manifesto's are almost funny . I have never known a single party produce ANYTHING from their manifesto during their term in power.
Back to health care , the NHS was , despite an earlier comment to the contrary , fairly good. We're talking at least 25 years ago though. Now , a patient stands a good chance of coming out of hospital worse than they were admitted. Additionally , dental care is far from free , anything beyond routine check ups and basic work is very expensive. It's actually cheaper to go abroad for dental treatment and the standard is generally better. In the UK we have the privilege of being able to use other Euro countries for treatment if it cannot be obtained in the UK. Some former Eastern Block countries offer package deals for cosmetic dental treatment and a holiday at incredible prices !
Private health care is available but not all it is claimed to be. One big problem is , any illness a patient is suffering at the time of enrolling in private schemes is excluded from treatment !! So if you are receiving unacceptable treatment form the NHS you cannot change to private health care to have that illness treated ! Also , they have a reputation for trying to duck liability to treat if they can find a get out in any way.
Whether the NHS can be fixed is a BIG question. Hopefully it can but I aint holding my breath !!
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One thing we have not touched on is how health care has changed.
What was untreatable 20 years ago in many cases today is cronic look at aids for example.
So do we want to pay ever more for a little more quality of life?
OR dare I say ration health care more chose who lives and dies.
As long as we a dropping bombs on people in far away lands its hard to say no we don't have the money for health care but do we have the will to make the hard choices.
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bioboy:
since coming of age i have been out of work exactly 5 hours after a layoff, and have been self employed and paid wages to employees
for the majority of the last 35 years.
i am still self employed, still pay my own way, insurance and all that stuff we all do to stay free. (or should i say most of us all)
would i like free health care? or rather could i use it?
well sure i could use it, with having to live with a severe spinal problem for the last 40 years, with countless xrays, drs, specialists,
surgeons, mri's, physical therapy, low grade, then medium grade and now industrial strength pain meds, (yes now they have me
on both time release morphine and vicadin for when there is break through pain,, and yes there are days that i would swear i would
get more relief out of an M&M ,, comeon,, give me a break!!!
yes it would be nice to have the government pay for my healthcare, but... the fucking government has no money of its own!!!
for me to have the Gov. pay my health care would require me to expect other folks to pay my way!!!
what really chaps my ass is while i need help out of bed, out of my chair, hurting so fucking back that i could bite a nail in two,, i get
up and go to work day after day, and do my best to take care of myself, all the while some worthless politician who has never
worked an honest day in his life is going to tell me that i also should help pay the heath needs of some illegal alien, dope fanatic, or some
sonofabitch that claims he got whiplash in a car accident and can never work ever again for the rest of his days, doing anything!
so pardon me if i don't have any patience left for "leftwing toesock/burkenstock wearing, C#$%suckin commie/socialist/ Know it all assholes"
that think they know better how to run my life.
oh yes, i forget your herogod was a community organizer!!! i bet he really got dirty doing that, really broke a sweat, and got some callus's
didn't he?
he is nothing more than a "product" of some vile machine, and it sickens me to see what he has planned for this country.
bob g
ps. comeon, just ask me what i really think!!
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Bob if you lived here I would not resent you for using OHIP....
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Sorry to open up a sore subject, but I wanted a glimpse into the future.
Another question for the Brits---a long time ago I was listening to a tape by Dr. Francis Schaefer (recorded about 1973) and he was talking about an organization in Britain called "EXIT"---it was designed to teach old folks to commit suicide. Is this true? If it is, it sounds a bit like eol care (denial of care) in the obama plan.
Tommy
PS---Chuck Norris (an actor here in the US) found in the health care bill that the gov't. will be visiting homes with small children...
http://townhall.com/columnists/ChuckNorris/2009/08/11/dirty_secret_no_1_in_obamacare
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I think it's good that young BIOBOY is a liberal.
And I don't care what color he is or where he gained his life experiences.
BIOBOY, you have the correct attitude of self sacrafice required in todays economic and demographic environment to assure my well being into the future. Too bad you won't have enough left to take care of any of your own dreams. :'(
It doesn't have to be like that. But it will be with the current group in charge. They don't have enough imagination to allow a better way. The whole Health Maintenace Organization system that they micromanaged into existance is the very system they demonize.
HMO's were Ted Kennedy's baby.
The US has a very good health care system, but people that 'pay as you go' are triple charged. If there was no insurance allowed in the US, health care would be affordable, like a tire patch or a head gasket repair. But Wait! now they are selling car maintenance insurance (extended warrenties). This whole thing is going the wrong way. The reason is a financial one. The Western World has been living on debt and inflation. 1973 was a marker year when Nixon refused to honour the call on gold for debt. My basic point here is that everyone overpays for everything with borrowed money. When you have a resession (like now) and people lose jobs, the price of used products drop like a stone....and new products don't sell (like cars and new houses) because they are over priced and must be bought with borrowed money. When you are ill or have cancer, you are in a bind and willing to pay any amount (of insurance money) but the final truth is that health care stops when the money runs out.
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Free? Ain't nothing in this life that be free. Well, perhaps death to the current user.
Norris is a very wealthy right winger. He may play the sweet-heart hero but he supports very right wing people and programs. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when he was discussing Palin as the next vice president of the US. Is she getting nuttier or is just me?
Bob,
Have you ever done low paying social program work? Why do you regard sweat money to be more honorable than brain money? How do you think most of the founding fathers of the US made their way financially?
Insurance is privatized socialism. The reason that health care costs including medications are so expensive in the US is that insurance companies are cost plus programs. The more they can get stuff selling for the more they can charge for the service plus their standard 20% management and marketing fees. You see, their hands are tied. They want to cherry pick the US public health market the same way UPS and FedEx cherry pick the mail and small package shipping market.
Burns
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At the beginning of this topic, I believe Ade hit the nail square on the head. Good on ya Ade!
Let me start my saying, I'm independent, meaning I think for myself! I don't follow any party dogma.
When it comes to politics, it's always gonna be a flipping mess, how ever you skin the cat, someone is going to take issue with it and gripe!
Personally, I'd prefer that government stayed lean and kept their (OUR) employees in check, the same as private business. I've seen too many good will programs go through the process of first R&D, next lets make it happen! Then it turns into a fat bellied department of government that wastes our tax dollars. Yes the idea was pure, but the reality of human nature is . . . . do I have to finish this sentence? History will repeat itself.
Ideals are one thing, reality is another. From my perspective, the winds of change are blowing strong, the economy is becoming a "world economy". Which means that we are all going to become dependent on each other across the world to some extent. If we expect to continue to live the same lifestyle here in the good ole U.S.of A. well, I'm not counting on it. Yes, you can run and hide, or at least make yourself LESS dependent on the economy at large, but, like it or not it will be what it will be! Learn to get along or live alone.
As I'm a proud american, I hope we can stave off the forces of socialism for as long as we can, after all, the country was founded as a republic, that was the original plan. Sadly, I see too many of my fellow citizens falling into the ranks of, oh it's easier to go with the flow and believe it will be okay.
Myself, I'm pissed and I'm letting "MY" representatives know that!
Be advised, those that are best prepared, will survive.
That's my 2 cents, . . . you know what, that's worth 2 bits!
Murph'
BTW, isn't this forum about Lister Engines?
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Phoey conservatism !!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdxpnqF1x0U
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Bioboy:
"have you ever done any social work?"
interesting question hmmm let me think a bit on that one
well during the vietnam war, i worked every Saturday using a hand powered hole punch, punching holes in ammo belts
until my hands were blistered and bleeding,, i did that for about 3 months and was never paid for my effort,,, i figured at
the time it was my patriotic duty to proudly do so.
i used to sit for 3 old folks on saturday afternoons while their caregiver took the afternoon off to go shopping and just get away
i never expected or was paid for my time doing that either.
spent many very hot and dirty hours mowing the parish cemetary, ok i was paid to do that so i guess that doesn't count.
but then again it was all of about 50 cents and hour, all the while wearing a milwakee back brace that cut into my sides above my pelvis
which scars are still with me today.
did a bit as an assistant scout master, that paid very well :)
campaigned for a democrat that ran for the senate in '72 (ok he had a drop dead gorgeous daughter, so shoot me)
see the thing is, most of us in the real world come from working families, and as such don't have the luxury of daddy's money so
we can go out and do social work, we have to work in order to feed and house ourselves.
your right on one point though,, i place a man that puts in a solid days work far ahead of some pos that plays tennis, spends daddy's money and dabbles in politics with the idea that he knows better than me how i should live my life.
community organizer is not a job period, it is something far different
a community social worker that works to help at risk youth is working and doing a job, and i commend then for that.
a community organizer does what? he stirs up the masses to do what the guy that is paying him wants done.
no different than a mafia loan shark, pimp or other thug in my opinion. he hones his gift of gab, his line of bullshit, and practices
the art of deception, not wholey unlike another bibilical character some liberals are all to proud to worship. (hint: he is red, has horns,
and a pitchfork) :)
i don't know what your story is bioboy, but here you come with all of your 5 posts thinking you will stir the pot and piss off
me or others with your liberal crappola,, buddy you are a rank amateur to say the least.
perhaps you can offer something of substance to the forum now that you have made it clear you are an obamanite, no
problem,,, most of us won't hold that against you.
can't speak for everyone though!
:)
bob g
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"i worked every Saturday using a hand powered hole punch, punching holes..."
DANGIT Bob,
I KNEW you were the one behind the hanging chad fiasco....
Steve ;)
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So many issues and not a social worker in the theater. Now if someone had great medical insurance perhaps we could get one until the policy was cancelled - you see megalomaniacs don't like mental health. And then there's the prior or existing condition clause as well. You know what they say, "If the right cross doesn't get you then the left one will." Oh darn, have I mixed my metaphors again?
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As an honorary smurf I'll have to admit the YouTube video was just too deep for me. What did I miss that would give it meaning?
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Dear Mobil Bob,
We all know you labor daily to provide for the welfare of the world. We all know that liberals have given nothing for your benefit and are free riders of society. How do you make time to poop out these contributions to LEF?
I’m not totally down with everything about most members of my list of liberals. What they had in common was a liberal philosophy and lifestyle for their times. Remember, the peers of Jesus so hated him that they gave him capital punishment. I’m sure your right wing whacko needs can appreciate the death penalty.
If you think living in a dominantly Asian community and being black is a free ride then please step away from the mirror and look at other people’s challenges. (Hawaii is only 30% white or black not to forget Indonesia’s race distribution.) Obama is either incredibly (in the full meaning of the word) lucky or he’s damn good. Oh, he did get the free ride that comes with being deserted by your father at birth and your mother before adolescence. Some guys just got it so much easier than you or I.
Back on task: Medicare management costs = ~3%. Private Insurance management costs = ~19%. Gosh Bless you “pay more - get less” fundamentalists. All important tasks in the United States are delegated to a socialist form of economic structure.
I’ve got the violins ready! Please respond.
Burns
Lowgear, Bioboy, whatever you're calling yourself,
What's wrong with you that you disappear and then come back under a different handle? If you're not Casey/Lowgear who I was going around in circles with on another thread (also concerning politics) then your posting style must be his twin brother.
Andrew,
is it possible to see if this is actually so?
(If it is in fact not so I will gladly retract the charge)
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Sorry to open up a sore subject, but I wanted a glimpse into the future.
Another question for the Brits---a long time ago I was listening to a tape by Dr. Francis Schaefer (recorded about 1973) and he was talking about an organization in Britain called "EXIT"---it was designed to teach old folks to commit suicide. Is this true? If it is, it sounds a bit like eol care (denial of care) in the obama plan.
Tommy
Yes , exit did and does exist.However , its still illegal to take ones own life or to assist someone to take their own life in the UK. There are organisations in other countries where it is legal though , Switzerland for one I think. There have been a number of attempts here to obtain a legal right to end a life or have someone assist in doing so , non have been successful that I know of. The NHS is doing a pretty good job though !! If I had an inclination towards conspiracy theories I would almost think it was an alternative agenda by the government to cull some of the old, weak , less able from society and save a few bucks !!
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Lowgear, Bioboy, whatever you're calling yourself,
What's wrong with you that you disappear and then come back under a different handle? If you're not Casey/Lowgear who I was going around in circles with on another thread (also concerning politics) then your posting style must be his twin brother.
I thought the exact same thing..
looking at BioBoys rant about facist I have to wonder , if its so bad here then why do you stay in the US . If lifes sogreat under the thumb of big goverment in other countries why dont you pack up and move.
As far as your comment that T Jefferson and George Washington were liberals in their days , I think you have a very twisted view (thanks to lib public education) of what those men thought , believed and fought for. Core to thier beliefs were LESS goverment intrusion in our lives and SMALLER goverment. Read what they wrote , not the opinion of your proffesor .
You libs rail on about "the man" and "big goverment" yet your leaders do everything possible to increase the size of goverment and impose more control over the masses than any other party in history , you need to pull your head out of your ass and realize you Obama worshipers are the sheep. You clowns cant form an unscripted honest thought of your own , you need a "community organizer" or "czar' to tell you what to think , maybe sheep is to mild how about lemming.
I stil have to wonder , why in the hell do we the taxpayers have to pay for the health care of everyone in the country , humans have been on this planet a long time with no socialized health care and as a whole we hae gotten along just fine . I am just amazed with this thought process over the past 20-25 years that we the tax payers need to provide for those that cant provide for themselves . We have turned into a nanny state .
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Every now-and-then it's a good idea to look at the plans from the 'other side'. Sometimes they see the same problems you do, and also realize something must be done.
The problem is that they use different 'buzz words' to describe the situation than you use, and they see the problem differently. That makes problems trying to debate them, It's not an Apples to apples debate, we can't hear each other, let alone understand, the defenitions and measures are not the same. Nor the final goals.
With such a disparate set of goals, is it any wonder the Town Hall meetings break down?
In a natural world, those that don't do as well - Don't do as well. Not good at getting up for work? Might not eat as well or be able to pay for health care. Watching my two step-sons, it's plain as the nose on your face. One works hard, plans ahead, is married and has beutiful kids. The other has spotty enployment, been to jail a couple of times from scoflawing minor traffic and parking offences, and spends everything he earns as soon as he gets it. He won't buy health insurance. Why would he?
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The other has spotty enployment, been to jail a couple of times from scoflawing minor traffic and parking offences, and spends everything he earns as soon as he gets it. He won't buy health insurance. Why would he?
and why should we?
If he doesnt want to buy insurance then good for him, thats a choice only he can make
I personaly dont see a problem with personal freedom and the ablity to make my own decisions , by the same token I dont expect my decisions wether sound or not to burden anyone else. its called personal responsibility , something that seems to be lost in modern litigation driven society.
You wanna smoke? not my problem, you choose to visit a "service provider" and end up with HIV? not my problem ..... but the GOV wants to make these poor decisions everyones problem by giving insurance coverage to everyone .
So lets say we open the door to taking care of everyone regardless of the stupid decisions they make in their personal life then where will it end? Its a very short walk to the point were the GOV will begin to limit these "risky" decisions "for the good of the collective" well in the above mentioned cases that is fine in my opinion but then there will be no end . Pretty soon they will decide jumping out of airplanes is to risky , then it will be riding motorcycles , shooting, hunting , riding a bycycle , operating a car , walking accross your living room, swimming etc etc at some point there will be so much control over the things you can and cannot do that it will become hard to do anything fun
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Yo mkdutchman and panaceabeachbum,
You’re right. Mike and I are brothers. We're both on Social Security and it does make the difference. We're both on Medicare and it saves our bacon. These two programs allowed our mother to stay at home until she died. We are biased.
Any program or system you look at has problems. Eden, Adam and Eves’ garden, couldn’t have lasted too long or Abel would have been born there. Any program or system you look at has great points. Many are still seeking Eden. I forget who pointed this out to me but I’m sure she was some liberal secular intellectualist jerk who only has blisters from cashing her trust fund checks. Is it less valid?
This website is great. Really good and usually reliable information on small diesel engines and generators posted by many people that really know what they’re talking about and graciously share. Like Mike’s visit to a neighbor’s bio-diesel set-up. And then there are the sections that are devoted to opinions. Some folks think that name calling and labeling are a valid part of opinion exchange. As far as I’m concerned that just turns the thread into a “Yo mama’s so ugly……” comic relief moment. I think most of us are very good about keeping our opinions in the opinions’ section and out of the technical sections which drive this website and make it the great place we really come here for. An up-side to the opinion sections is that it should teach us that in spite of our common high regard for small diesel engines we do disagree about less important things like religion, politics and, in this case, a state sponsored healthcare insurance program.
For those of you that have not completed a four year college degree program, like my brother, the power and influence of the “professors” diminishes with each class whether it be “Business, Government and Society 444” or “Golf 101” (I took it Pass/Fail). But you’re correct about that first year or two before a student learns that instructors are no less full of crap than any other class of wage earners
Back on Topic: So I listen to Dave Ross talk radio on the internet. A senator was just being interviewed and maintained that the reason that congress shouldn’t have to live with this new proposed health insurance program is because everyone will have the right to keep their existing insurance. What a chicken liver cop-out!
Now! If you are offended we both, Mike and Casey, post to this site – I’m sorry. I apologize. But it will happen again. Oh. What’s your real name(s)? What’s your real email address? And we all know Mobil_Bob is perfectly capable of taking care of himself in about any situation life throws at him. That's why we read what he has to say whether we agree or not.
Casey
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..... but the GOV wants to make these poor decisions everyones problem by giving insurance coverage to everyone .
So lets say we open the door to taking care of everyone regardless of the stupid decisions they make in their personal life then where will it end? Its a very short walk to the point were the GOV will begin to limit these "risky" decisions "for the good of the collective" well in the above mentioned cases that is fine in my opinion but then there will be no end . Pretty soon they will decide jumping out of airplanes is to risky , then it will be riding motorcycles , shooting, hunting , riding a bycycle , operating a car , walking accross your living room, swimming etc etc at some point there will be so much control over the things you can and cannot do that it will become hard to do anything fun
As a Canuk I'd like to ask a few questions to our Southern brothers.
As far as I knew I thought that roughly 50 % of your population's health care as it stands now WAS FREE.
I mean, you have Medicaid for the old folks, Medicare for the poor folks, full coverage for the Military includes current and vets for life ( I have US vet relatives who confirm this ), and you have coverage for the Natives on the reserves.( and off too ???) ????
Correct me if I am wrong.
Canada's system as it stands now doesn't cover everything.
We have to pay for our meds (unless we have extra insurance coverage bought out of our own pockets like Bluecross ), pay for private beds, pay for home care , pay for our dental and a whole list of other stuff.
Our system ain't perfect by a long shot.
But how is it that even though our we pay for our own meds they are still vastly cheaper for the same thing than buying from USA.?
Our Pharmacorps & yours still make a decent buck from selling to us and we don't seem to be gouged , only in other ways ( higher consumption, personal, corp taxes ).
One thing does remain a constant through both our ways of life/systems, the middle class is always paying the freight thru the arse for the lower and upper classes.
Perhaps your current administration does have an agenda of more gov't meddling in your lives.
You elected them, so toss the bums out next time, start a revolt.
Get back to that Republic that your forefathers cherished before you fall like ancient Rome.( I know, easy to say hard to do )
I only wish you could make a Pax Americana and take Canada along for the ride & combine the 2 of our countries, what a glorious superpower we could be.( shhh, don't tell the Mexicans, it would spoil everything) ;)
Thats what I love about America, anything is possible.( isn't that why the Hydrogen bomb was invented ? ) :P
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Panacea,
"You wanna smoke? not my problem, you choose to visit a "service provider" and end up with HIV? not my problem ..... but the GOV wants to make these poor decisions everyones problem by giving insurance coverage to everyone."
Unfortunately, your logic is fatally flawed.
You are not an island no matter how responsible you are.
Here's why:
Taking your above hypothetical statement at face value, let's assume you choose to smoke and visit service providers on a regular basis.
Now, let's also assume that you also choose to carry health insurance and it happens to be by the same company that also supplies mine.
Is it right that my rates will be higher because you choose the lifestyle that you do, because statistically, you or others like you, will be far more expensive to take care of?
My point is, we are ALREADY paying to support our neighbors, either through higher insurance rates or by tax dollars (when they visit the ER with no insurance). As it stands now, the costs are higher because there is no preventative or wellness medicine in the equation.
I would submit that it's far cheaper to add oil to the car's engine, rather than to wait for it to run out and rebuild the engine later.
Steve
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Interesting observation about how much 'free' medical the US already has.
I'm somewhat alarmed by the notion of a single payer system, more upset when the doctors become federal employees.
But the naked grab for power that is comming out of the 1017 page House Bill is raising the hackles on my red neck.
Medical commisioners that are above review by the judicial system? Free access to the patients medical and financial records? Including disemination to foreign entities? What's that about?
Re-writing the IRS code to take money from 'opt outers'? Fines, fees, review commisions to find regions that don't have high enough federal enrollment rates and instructions on how to increase it?
A public option that is to compete with private insurers, and the rules are already set up to cheat on behalf of the Gov't plan?
What politicians are saying about health care reform does not match the one bill we can read, the house bill. Senators disengenuously tell us that's not in the bill they are working on...well there are 4 senate bills now. But whatever they pass has to go to reconciliation with the House version, and that's done behind closed doors.
The funny thing is that this is politics-as-usual. Just now we care more about it because it is such a big deal, and in the computer age, we can communicate with each other so fast that the politician can't obscure what 'buisness-as-usual' really means as well as they used to. We (grass roots man-in-the-street) can report our little contribution, and when they are added together the bigger picture becomes clear.
Steve, good anlogy on the adding oil.
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As an honorary smurf I'll have to admit the YouTube video was just too deep for me. What did I miss that would give it meaning?
You like that eh?
I laugh everytime I see that.
I don't think many people "Get It" however at least not on this side of the pond
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Dear abbamovers,
You're close. Medicare is for anyone 65 and older. In fact I think I was automatically enrolled. There is a small fee taken from wages or collected at tax time for the self employed. A few dollars are taken from my medicare transfer now as well. It is wonderful. I now get my HMO for "free" that I was paying $250 a month for a year ago. My co-pays will be higher because I elected to NOT purchase supplemental insurance. I go to the doctor, I like her and feel she is completely competent, about twice a year. It used to cost me $15 and now I think it’ll be about $45. I can switch my plan once a year as I understand it. But it's saving me close to $3000 this year. Medicaid is kind of similar but is for really broke people, something like less than $1500 in total assets, and there are many ways to get it before a person turns 65. This is the one that grinds on some of my brothers and sisters. I've been to Mexico and I don't want to live there. I don't want the streets and neighborhoods in my country to start looking like I do.
I'm a vet, with a good conduct medal ;D, and I suppose I could use the veterans’ insurance program but I’ve heard it’s jammed-up and I prefer to leave it for what I call real vets or people that have put at least 20 years into the service of our country. I don’t always agree with their mission but I will always appreciate their sacrifice and service.
As for Native Americans, their health care programs have been an embarrassment to most US citizens that live with their conscience for at least 100 years. I think there are few, very few examples of nations that have been near totally destroyed to come back in a measly 2 or 3 hundred years. I believe this is bore out in ancient history, Biblical history and medieval European history as well. Perhaps as a person of Irish ancestry I may be a bit over sensitive or even biased about this opinion but the healing of the soul takes a lot longer than that of the body.
I’m glad we’re starting to realize that there is more than one proposed bill out there and it will be boiled down to a single one before it gets past the senate and be reorganized and gotten through the house and, I think, back through the senate again before the President can say “Yah or Nay”. And then there’s the Supreme Court putting in its two bits every once in a while.
The really good news is that this thread has really upgraded its contributions.
Casey
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Hey,
I think I’m wrong about Medicare being for those over 65. I think it's for all Social Security benefit receivers.
Casey
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Casey;
That was nice. I usually think of you as sniping at us red necks.
I have an Irish American liberal friend. He retired and moved away. We used to have such a good time arguing. The thing is, he was smart and could articulate his liberal politics and then explain how that fit with his conservative family mores.
I think excessive liberalism that makes life more humane for the living, is not the best thing for the culture or eventually humanity.
It's not exactly eugenics, what it is: natural selection.
Pretty cold huh? But I think the outcome is more humane in the end. Children don't like that polio shot either.
That's why I don't want to saddle our kids with expensive care for the baby boomers. I do want care for us, but I want a smarter way that costs less and gives better choices, which is usually created in free markets. More powerful govenment monopoly means slowing in technological advancement, and the end of creative ways to get more work out of deminishing money. The cost keeps going up and the quality of service goes down as public employees get entrenched and start negociating for higher pay with less work. Care for the client becomes secondary to career advancement and working conditions, because competition has been removed.
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Just to sit the other side of the fence for a half second, unregulated free market medical monopolies or price cartells are also reprehensible. :P
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interestingly just about everything associated with health care has signed on with obama's plan whatever it is to be
also those so called obscene profit margins
for profit hospitals average 3.4% net profits
health insurance companies average 3.5%
i don't remember all the rest of the numbers, but none were over 5% net profit
and we are to believe that the government is going to squeeze the fat out of the system?
hard as it is to get blood out of a turnip, that 3.5% profit margin ain't gonna pay for much beauracracy
much less any more insured souls.
who knows how this is going to all come down, all we can do is make sure our voices are heard, donate accordingly
and vote our concience.
i am seriously thinking of donating to some races out of my district and state, put the money to work unseating some
of these jokers that seem to place themselves above the rest of us.
arlen spector comes to mind, along with harry reid and barbara boxer
all we need to do is unseat some of the shakey ones, just one or two in the senate would surely change the complexion
of the debate.
bob g
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Profit margins are an interesting way to evaluate companies. The nickle and dime programs I do the challenge is to find legitimate write offs so I don’t break out of the 15% tax bracket. I wish I could consider multimillion dollar salaries and corporate jets for this purpose. A business school story:
A corporation advertises for a new accountant.
Three people apply.
Each one is given the same set of papers and asked “How much did we make and how much do we owe in taxes?
The first candidate reported 2.3 million profit and 1.2 million in taxes.
The second candidate reported 1.2 million profit and 2.3 million in taxes.
The third candidate asked “What numbers do you want?”
Which one was offered the position? I think we all know that answer.
I prefer to judge my profit by my life style. I’d like to have a private jet and off shore bank accounts but I still do consider myself lucky. Now that I have Medicare I feel even luckier.
Casey
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A subject that has not been brought up here and I believe is one of the main contributors to sky rocketing health care costs is liability insurance for doctors, hospitals and HMO's.
I've had some dealings with a doctor who informed me that even though she has never been sued or had a complaint from any of her patents, her insurance costs have tripled in the last 10 years or so. I can't remember the exact number but I believe it was more than 75 thou. a year she had to fork out for her private practice. With all of the rest of her overhead, she was barely making a profit. So, she spent her spare time investing in real estate.
I do think we all need to be held responsible for our actions, and if a doctor makes a mistake in the operating room, there should be some sort of repercussions. But the frivolous lawsuits and the over the top financial rewards on some cases are driving allot of doctors out of the business and in turn increasing the cost of health care.
What is the solution, I'm not sure, but we could start by being a bit more realistic about the rewards on some of these cases.
I spent 10 days in the hospital for a collapsed lung, during my stay there were a few mistakes made a couple of which were rather serious, one in fact forced me to stay in the hospital for a couple of days longer than should have been required. It was somewhat amusing when a hospital admin. came to discuss the event with me, I could see a bit of fear on her face. There was NO admission of wrong doing but she wanted to be sure that I was doing ok, and they needed to document the incident to be sure that it didn't happen again. I told her, look, just don't charge me for any additional expenses caused by this and I'll be fine with that. They didn't charge me for the care I received for the last couple of days, and they actually discounted my final bill by a fair percentage.
I was just grateful to be alive and to have some of the best health care services in the world at my disposal.
If we were all just a bit more reasonable about these sort of things it'd be a much better world.
Murph'
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I agreen completely with Murph.
A surgeon that I know pays over $100K/yr for his medical insurance.
He too mentioned that he needs to charge a fair amount just to keep the lights on and isn't making much $$$.
What I do know is this - the insurance industry is the richest in the world.
I"m not buying that they only make 3.5% on health insurance. If that was the case, I can assure you that they'd stop writing health policies altogether as it wouldn't be worth their time.
Steve
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The whole concept of insurance bugs me;
Putting money up. Betting against yourself.
Life insurance is putting your money up front betting you will die early. When you win, you lost. ???
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Cost Plus Rules!
The greater the settlements are the greater the premiums. Don't you get it? If I got paid on the amount of money I was paying out you can bet my payouts would grow at a rate close to the raise in our medical costs.
You do know that insurance companies pay about 1/2 the fees for services that you or I would pay with our check or credit card? That bill you receive from the hospital shows you what you, the chump, would pay but they never show you what their coconspirators actually do pay. (I put the “coconspirators” in there for my brothers and sisters that want to wander off from topic.)
Good News – Bad News. For the upper half of the population we do have really good critical medical care but those cursed poor keep dragging us down from Number One in medical practice outcomes like life expectancy and infant mortality. I know I've brought these points up before and we've all read the sampling and mathematical reasons our data doesn't look as good. Do you really believe this is a sampling error? Or could it just be the reality of how truly important money is in our best in the world society?
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Low,
I would contend that it has very little to do with sampling errors.
I would contend that the numbers are accurate and the distribution between the rich and poor is uniform (don't know that for a fact).
The huge piece of the puzzle that is missing is wellness medicine.
Until the population is weaned from the concept that cures only come from pharmaceutical bottles, and serious diet and lifestyle changes are made, the system will continue its downward spiral because the medical system is reactionary instead of proactive.
The insurance companies, and the US population in general, are only just beginning to get it. I find it incomprehensible that western medicine, with it's 80 whole years of knowledge base, completely disregards 2000 years of medical info that Chinese, European and Indian medicine is based on. Our doctors aren't even taught about it!
We are the best in the world at critical care. We are also the worst in the world at wellness medicine.
Perhaps the lack of focus on wellness really comes down to the almighty dollar. Doctors, hospitals, drug companies and even insurance companies don't make money if you are well and stay well. (why would we need anythng except catastrophic insurance if we never were sick?)
Steve
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Greed - it's a dirty disease!
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Thought this was an interesting, brief synopsis of what they're trying to accomplish.
Worth the read imho.
Hopefully, everyone realizes that the insurance companies are funding a massive misinformation campaign as this would be a major game-changer for them.
8 ways reform provides security and stability to those with or without coverage
Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.
Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.
Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.
Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.
Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.
Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.
Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.
Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.
Learn more and get details: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/ (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/)
8 common myths about health insurance reform
Reform will stop "rationing" - not increase it: It’s a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.
We can’t afford reform: It's the status quo we can't afford. It’s a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.
Reform would encourage "euthanasia": It does not. It’s a malicious myth that reform would encourage or even require euthanasia for seniors. For seniors who want to consult with their family and physicians about end-of life decisions, reform will help to cover these voluntary, private consultations for those who want help with these personal and difficult family decisions.
Vets' health care is safe and sound: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will affect veterans' access to the care they get now. To the contrary, the President's budget significantly expands coverage under the VA, extending care to 500,000 more veterans who were previously excluded. The VA Healthcare system will continue to be available for all eligible veterans.
Reform will benefit small business - not burden it: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will hurt small businesses. To the contrary, reform will ease the burdens on small businesses, provide tax credits to help them pay for employee coverage and help level the playing field with big firms who pay much less to cover their employees on average.
Your Medicare is safe, and stronger with reform: It’s myth that Health Insurance Reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits. To the contrary, reform will improve the long-term financial health of Medicare, ensure better coordination, eliminate waste and unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and help to close the Medicare "doughnut" hole to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors.
You can keep your own insurance: It’s myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors. To the contrary, reform will expand your choices, not eliminate them.
No, government will not do anything with your bank account: It is an absurd myth that government will be in charge of your bank accounts. Health insurance reform will simplify administration, making it easier and more convenient for you to pay bills in a method that you choose. Just like paying a phone bill or a utility bill, you can pay by traditional check, or by a direct electronic payment. And forms will be standardized so they will be easier to understand. The choice is up to you – and the same rules of privacy will apply as they do for all other electronic payments that people make.
Learn more and get details:
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck)
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq)
8 Reasons We Need Health Insurance Reform Now
Coverage Denied to Millions: A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years or dropped from coverage when they became seriously ill. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/denied_coverage/index.html
Less Care for More Costs: With each passing year, Americans are paying more for health care coverage. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have nearly doubled since 2000, a rate three times faster than wages. In 2008, the average premium for a family plan purchased through an employer was $12,680, nearly the annual earnings of a full-time minimum wage job. Americans pay more than ever for health insurance, but get less coverage. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hiddencosts/index.html
Roadblocks to Care for Women: Women’s reproductive health requires more regular contact with health care providers, including yearly pap smears, mammograms, and obstetric care. Women are also more likely to report fair or poor health than men (9.5% versus 9.0%). While rates of chronic conditions such as diabetes and high blood pressure are similar to men, women are twice as likely to suffer from headaches and are more likely to experience joint, back or neck pain. These chronic conditions often require regular and frequent treatment and follow-up care. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/women/index.html
Hard Times in the Heartland: Throughout rural America, there are nearly 50 million people who face challenges in accessing health care. The past several decades have consistently shown higher rates of poverty, mortality, uninsurance, and limited access to a primary health care provider in rural areas. With the recent economic downturn, there is potential for an increase in many of the health disparities and access concerns that are already elevated in rural communities. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hardtimes
Small Businesses Struggle to Provide Health Coverage: Nearly one-third of the uninsured – 13 million people – are employees of firms with less than 100 workers. From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. Much of this decline stems from small business. The percentage of small businesses offering coverage dropped from 68% to 59%, while large firms held stable at 99%. About a third of such workers in firms with fewer than 50 employees obtain insurance through a spouse. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/helpbottomline
The Tragedies are Personal: Half of all personal bankruptcies are at least partly the result of medical expenses. The typical elderly couple may have to save nearly $300,000 to pay for health costs not covered by Medicare alone. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inaction
Diminishing Access to Care: From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. An estimated 87 million people - one in every three Americans under the age of 65 - were uninsured at some point in 2007 and 2008. More than 80% of the uninsured are in working families. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inaction/diminishing/index.html
The Trends are Troubling: Without reform, health care costs will continue to skyrocket unabated, putting unbearable strain on families, businesses, and state and federal government budgets. Perhaps the most visible sign of the need for health care reform is the 46 million Americans currently without health insurance - projections suggest that this number will rise to about 72 million in 2040 in the absence of reform. Learn more: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/assets/documents/CEA_Health_Care_Report.pdf
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What I do know is this - the insurance industry is the richest in the world.
Steve
Last year it was the oil industry, next year it will be some other. These big bad industries employee lots of people, make up a large part of the economy, and when they profit, so do I and many millions of others, since they also are a large part of the larger part of most folks 401Ks and other savings vehicles, at least those among us that are "lucky" enough to have any savings anymore (how a social liberal can twist the fact that I am frugal therefore have savings into "luck" is beyond me!). So, the fed drives them out of buisness, industry by industry, for one reason or another, our individual wealth slowly disapated by this attrition, deliberate inflation, and the inevitable additional taxation, and soon we will ALL be serfs again. The pigs do indead wear clothes!
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I don't know you guys, but I assume most of you have hired a lawyer. I did when I got divorced.
I truely needed the service, and they (both a woman, then later a man) were very good, professional and ethical. I had to pay them later as I could afford it.
I think we should all have national legal care.
No, I'm just kidding. But sometimes I think we SHOULDN'T have health insurance. Too much regulation, taxation and insurance drive up costs. I wonder what it would be like if we went the other way, and de-regulated instead of went for national insurance?
How about making it against the law to tax medical care. In Washington State sales tax is not collected on food. Kinda like that.
Tax Free Medical. De-regulated. Cash and carry, Take Payments? Can I fix your car in trade? Will you take a chicken? ::)
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Thank you for the report from the white house, however, as there are a number of versions of the health insurance reform in the works, we won't know the final wording until the sh!t hits the wall. The White house at this point is poopin' out what makes them look good, I know a good marketing program in swing when I see one.
Mind you, there is a small part of me that hopes that something good will come of all this, if the process works well and we all have our say and the really important issues are addressed and the stepping on citizen's toes is kept to the very minimum, then we all might walk away from it with some sense of, well that wasn't so bad.
These are trying times, I'm reading and seeing soooo much crap being spooned out by all sides, everyone is out to make the "others" sound like the bad guys and make themselves out to be the heros! What a bunch of B.S. There is some truth in there and some good intentions, but all the knee-jerk reactions just stir the pot of resistance to finding common ground.
I used to call myself a conservative, now after all the B.S that I've witnessed from the conservative movement, as it has tried to regain a foot hold, I call myself an independent. Scare tactics and lies might win over the followers, but if you're paying attention to the big picture, you see it all. I'm not going to let the lib's off the hook either, they're playing the same flipping game, it just makes me sad, I see so much potential in our society, yet we continue to B.S. each other to try to get ahead.
I keep hoping that we'll learn from our mistakes.
Murph'
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I was in the medical diagnostic imaging business for 27 years, sales, service, installs, and planning. Working with 3 companys, they all tought me one common message. (10% of the population makes up 90% of the hospital business.) I retired 5 years ago and know the demografics are changing,with our aging population. My aunt had hip surgury 2 years ago, she was 96. She said then that this was her 3rd. time in the hospital, twice for the birth of her children and now for the hip surgury. She is the NORM!
Having worked in most military and VA hospitals, University hospitals, state run public hospitals, and hundreds of clincs on the west coast, and Europe, I will say this. (Every State or Federal run Instituion I went to and my coworkers went to was morebound!(spell). My coworkers covered Asia, MidEast, ect. Morbound, my definition So overwhelmed by regulation they could not function to serve thier patients. That is the problem that needs addressing and it is not even on the table.
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I wrote a couple of long paragraphs on the use of the word "Luck" and decided to spare you. Ain't you lucky? ;D
Oh!
Amen Murph.
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8 ways reform provides security and stability to those with or without coverage
Ends Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions: Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.
Ends Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays: Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.
Ends Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care: Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.
Ends Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill: Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.
Ends Gender Discrimination: Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.
Ends Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage: Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.
Extends Coverage for Young Adults: Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.
Guarantees Insurance Renewal: Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won't be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.
Learn more and get details: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/ (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/)
8 common myths about health insurance reform
Reform will stop "rationing" - not increase it: It’s a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.
We can’t afford reform: It's the status quo we can't afford. It’s a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.
Reform would encourage "euthanasia": It does not. It’s a malicious myth that reform would encourage or even require euthanasia for seniors. For seniors who want to consult with their family and physicians about end-of life decisions, reform will help to cover these voluntary, private consultations for those who want help with these personal and difficult family decisions.
Vets' health care is safe and sound: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will affect veterans' access to the care they get now. To the contrary, the President's budget significantly expands coverage under the VA, extending care to 500,000 more veterans who were previously excluded. The VA Healthcare system will continue to be available for all eligible veterans.
Reform will benefit small business - not burden it: It’s a myth that health insurance reform will hurt small businesses. To the contrary, reform will ease the burdens on small businesses, provide tax credits to help them pay for employee coverage and help level the playing field with big firms who pay much less to cover their employees on average.
Your Medicare is safe, and stronger with reform: It’s myth that Health Insurance Reform would be financed by cutting Medicare benefits. To the contrary, reform will improve the long-term financial health of Medicare, ensure better coordination, eliminate waste and unnecessary subsidies to insurance companies, and help to close the Medicare "doughnut" hole to make prescription drugs more affordable for seniors.
You can keep your own insurance: It’s myth that reform will force you out of your current insurance plan or force you to change doctors. To the contrary, reform will expand your choices, not eliminate them.
No, government will not do anything with your bank account: It is an absurd myth that government will be in charge of your bank accounts. Health insurance reform will simplify administration, making it easier and more convenient for you to pay bills in a method that you choose. Just like paying a phone bill or a utility bill, you can pay by traditional check, or by a direct electronic payment. And forms will be standardized so they will be easier to understand. The choice is up to you – and the same rules of privacy will apply as they do for all other electronic payments that people make.
Learn more and get details:
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck)
http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq (http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck/faq)
8 Reasons We Need Health Insurance Reform Now
Coverage Denied to Millions: A recent national survey estimated that 12.6 million non-elderly adults – 36 percent of those who tried to purchase health insurance directly from an insurance company in the individual insurance market – were in fact discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition in the previous three years or dropped from coverage when they became seriously ill. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/denied_coverage/index.html
Less Care for More Costs: With each passing year, Americans are paying more for health care coverage. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have nearly doubled since 2000, a rate three times faster than wages. In 2008, the average premium for a family plan purchased through an employer was $12,680, nearly the annual earnings of a full-time minimum wage job. Americans pay more than ever for health insurance, but get less coverage. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hiddencosts/index.html
Roadblocks to Care for Women: Women’s reproductive health requires more regular contact with health care providers, including yearly pap smears, mammograms, and obstetric care. Women are also more likely to report fair or poor health than men (9.5% versus 9.0%). While rates of chronic conditions such as diabetes and high blood pressure are similar to men, women are twice as likely to suffer from headaches and are more likely to experience joint, back or neck pain. These chronic conditions often require regular and frequent treatment and follow-up care. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/women/index.html
Hard Times in the Heartland: Throughout rural America, there are nearly 50 million people who face challenges in accessing health care. The past several decades have consistently shown higher rates of poverty, mortality, uninsurance, and limited access to a primary health care provider in rural areas. With the recent economic downturn, there is potential for an increase in many of the health disparities and access concerns that are already elevated in rural communities. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/hardtimes
Small Businesses Struggle to Provide Health Coverage: Nearly one-third of the uninsured – 13 million people – are employees of firms with less than 100 workers. From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. Much of this decline stems from small business. The percentage of small businesses offering coverage dropped from 68% to 59%, while large firms held stable at 99%. About a third of such workers in firms with fewer than 50 employees obtain insurance through a spouse. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/helpbottomline
The Tragedies are Personal: Half of all personal bankruptcies are at least partly the result of medical expenses. The typical elderly couple may have to save nearly $300,000 to pay for health costs not covered by Medicare alone. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inaction
Diminishing Access to Care: From 2000 to 2007, the proportion of non-elderly Americans covered by employer-based health insurance fell from 66% to 61%. An estimated 87 million people - one in every three Americans under the age of 65 - were uninsured at some point in 2007 and 2008. More than 80% of the uninsured are in working families. Learn more: http://www.healthreform.gov/reports/inaction/diminishing/index.html
The Trends are Troubling: Without reform, health care costs will continue to skyrocket unabated, putting unbearable strain on families, businesses, and state and federal government budgets. Perhaps the most visible sign of the need for health care reform is the 46 million Americans currently without health insurance - projections suggest that this number will rise to about 72 million in 2040 in the absence of reform. Learn more: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/assets/documents/CEA_Health_Care_Report.pdf
LMAO, anyone that believes that spinning piece of horsecr*p deserves the worse that the government HC bill would give them!!
ok, I'll try to be civil now :)
have you actually read the monstrosity? I have, (until my eyes started glazing over) and once you get past the mind-boggling gobble-de-gook and legal speak, things start looking ominous. It's not just about health, it has to do with CONTROL
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8 ways reform provides security and stability to those with or without coverage
Ends Disc
snip
Insurance companies will be out of the picture completely. Government will end up BEING the insurance company. And BTW if the gov screws up you don't get to appeal.
Reform will stop "rationing" - not increase it: It’s a myth that reform will mean a "government takeover" of health care or lead to "rationing." To the contrary, reform will forbid many forms of rationing that are currently being used by insurance companies.
I don't believe that for one second. If going to a doctor will no longer cost you anything, why wouldn't you be going to a doctor for every little thing? with doctors leaving the system now already why wouldn't they leave even faster with all the additional pressure they would surely be put under?
We can’t afford reform: It's the status quo we can't afford. It’s a myth that reform will bust the budget. To the contrary, the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs; ending big subsidies to insurance companies; and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork. In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis.
wow, that one is so full of holes I scarce know where to begin. "reform will bust the budget" check out the CBO's report on that. It was sound enough that even obama couldn't spin it away. Cost=$1,000,000,000.00 (1 trillion) according to CBO, and would increase our debt by $239,000,000.00 (239 billion).
"the President has identified ways to pay for the vast majority of the up-front costs by cutting waste, fraud, and abuse within existing government health programs" well Mr. President that's cool, but why do we need to wait until we need to pay for another program that's even bigger, even more prone to fraud and even more invasive? Why not just cut the waste right away? And BTW those "agencies" he was talking about? Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid
"ending big subsidies to insurance companies" again, why do we need to wait until we pass another big bill? do it now, you don't need a thousand plus page bill to do that. I say gov has been in bed with business too long to start with. (GM and TARP anyone?) that's not the american way, that's facism.
"and increasing efficiency with such steps as coordinating care and streamlining paperwork" by creating over a hundred new agencies/bureaucracies? I fail to see the logic in that.
"In the long term, reform can help bring down costs that will otherwise lead to a fiscal crisis." No argument there, true reform, and not this bloated monstrosity we have now would probably help a lot, how about starting with tort reform
running out of time, be back later
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This whole issue is SPIN, SPIN, by both sides.
It is true - 10% of the people require 90% of the services.
I see this in my family, friends and neighbors.
The simple solutions will always be unpalatable and lobby blocked.
???
Full preventive and wellness care until of age.
Then voluntary risk grouped (lifestyle choices only - all other factors averaged out) privately paid for insurance.
And a national safety net program financed by diverting all of our current "sin" taxes out of general fund diversion directly in treatment programs like they were supposed to go. In fact anything determined to be a negative health factor slap on enough tax to pay for the full social cost of tobacco, alcohol, drug usage, gambling, fast foods, convenience mealing, X style adventuring, etc. Virtually nothing illegal, just very expensive.
In the US we do currently pay a federal "sporting goods tax", model after this.
'Course we know this ain't gonna happen. Too many toes to step on.
In the mean time my wife and I will contiue to pay $7000-9000. a year in private health insurance for our annual wellness check and once every three years. actual needs visit. Damn spiders.
All my own opinions
SteveU.
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The sad part is, they laid out a plan and everyone is criticizing it.
At least it's an attempt; laid out in anticipation that they wouldn't get everything they were hoping for.
Here's a challenge; come up with something better, more workable, efficient, cheaper and legal.
Now apply the litmous test of whether or not it will please everybody or even anybody. I would submit that no matter what you come up with, it would receive a similar misinformation campaign as they are now experiencing.
Why? Because it's a game changer for the richest scam industry in the world, and they know it.
The bottom line is the existing system is broken and getting worse.
Figure out a better way to fix it!
It's very easy to tear any new idea apart without offering legit, workable solutions. Listen to Rush Limbaugh, he's the king of that.
I, for one, have NO sympathy for the insurance industry. Anyone who defends them, and the status quo, must be smoking something that is REALLY, REALLY good.
Steve
PS - And no, I don't think Obama is the be all and end all. HOWEVER, after 8 years of the right creating the biggest govt in US history, stripping us of our rights, and running up the largest deficit ever, I am willing to give the new guy a chance. Based on the reaction from the right, you'd think he was the anti-christ. He's only been in office for 7 months! I would submit that we should cut the guy a bit of slack as he was handed the worst mess any President has ever been handed in the history of the country.
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PS - And no, I don't think Obama is the be all and end all. HOWEVER, after 8 years of the right creating the biggest govt in US history, stripping us of our rights, and running up the largest deficit ever, I am willing to give the new guy a chance.
If the US left & right more or less matches the UK left & right (differing degrees, I know: Your left is like our right), then expect to lose even more rights and gain an even bigger government than you already have, probably with an even bigger deficit still...
There's an old saying - which I am almost certainly misquoting badly, but here goes: If you don't vote Labour (left-wing) when you're young, you've got no heart. If you don't vote Tory (right-wing) when you're older, you've got no brain...
The problem with left-wingers (and it's more of a problem the further left they go), is they believe in redistribution. Like Marx (IIRC) - from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. The problem is, there's no incentive to produce more, if you're going to have it all taken away. In fact, why work at all when - if you don't work - the state will give you what you need? That's why communism always, eventually, fails - even when it's run with ruthless authoritarianism. Actually, the same is true of facism (far-right), but then, the whole left/right thing is a gross oversimplification anyway.
The real irony is, it's only thanks to what Liberals would call "nasty unregulated capitalism", and other right-wing stuff, that they (those same Liberals) can actually afford to be Liberal! In a further irony, it's the industrial revolution - i.e. unbridled unregulated capitalism - which created the towns & factories which gave rise to the unions which birthed the Labour party (I assume something relatively similar happened in the US).... which simply wouldn't exist if Governments around the C18th/C19th had regulated the mill owners... An irony which is entirely lost on most of "the left"...
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Ade,
While I agree with most of what you have written, the simple fact is, unchecked capitalism is no better than the opposite socialist extreme. Further, the entire trickle-down economics theory is nothing but a farce.
I would contend that stronger growth actually occurs with uniform wealth distribution, thereby allowing people the means to not only increase their standard of living, but also to innovate and start new businesses, which then continues to drive the cycle.
That having been said, it still requires people to be motivated and that will not occur if their every need is supplied by sucking on the govt tit.
I counter with this from today's news. Please consider the following while also viewing it in light of the current economic situation. My point is, either extreme is unworkable and doomed to failure:
"Saez calculates that in 2007 the top .01 percent of American earners took home 6 percent of total U.S. wages, a figure that has nearly doubled since 2000."
"As of 2007, the top decile (10%) of American earners, Saez writes, pulled in 49.7 percent of total wages, a level that's "higher than any other year since 1917 and even surpasses 1928, the peak of stock market bubble in the 'roaring" 1920s.'"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/income-inequality-is-at-a_n_259516.html
Steve
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Lefty Loosie - Righty Tightie.
I got this government grant. It pays us back 75 cents for every dollar that we spend up to an agreed contract amount for water system improvements on our farm.
First: Thank you all us US tax payers.
Second: To get the $22,000 we had to spend around $29,333. So our local markets got a $29,333 boost to their sales. (No complaints from the Rotary Club on this part.)
Third: We had to pay 15% of the $22,000 as income tax. (Not really but we could have if we didn't know how to capitalize asset investments.)
Fourth: The people that got our $29,000 had to pay at least 15% of that amount that was profit as income tax and over and over again as in the next explanation.
Fifth: The rest of $29,000 that wasn’t profit to our vendors was either profit or wages to others and taxes were paid on that.
Conclusion: Well this could almost sound like the government might be making money on their grant program until you realize that all of the money that was spent by businesses became a write-off. But the wage earners don’t get this benefit. So how much does it really cost the federal government to give out a $22,000 grant? I don’t know, but not $22,000 and it was pretty nice for us two US citizens and the two part time people that help us here on the farm. It’s also pretty nice for the community because our demand for public water will go way down over the next year and should relieve the already rather old county water program for many years into the future. I’m already looking for another tank that won’t be subsidized just to make those dry times not seem quite so desperate. You see, the government has planted a seed on our farm and I think it’s going to grow.
Don’t you wish all these liberal vs. conservative answers were this simple. Now what was that question about health care?
And again, Thanks,
Casey
Update: The $22,000 is going back into the farm as well so the local economy will enjoy almost a $50,000 stimulus package for only $22,000.
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I believe the issue was a socialized health care bill that has a lot of control language and not very much health care language.
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I thought the issue was fear of a malignant federal government that screws up everything it touches. I’m pretty impressed with most programs I’ve actually dealt with. Perfection does not exist. We, the people, pay for everything directly or indirectly. We’ve got a pretty effective Department of Defense, Postal Service, Social Security is OK with me and Medicare is good too. I have a couple of $200 toilet seat like purchases hidden out in the garage as well so I don’t get quite as excited as some people over some slick jerk or incompetent clerk screwing things up every once in a while. I just don’t want to do business with organizations that pay some of their employees millions of dollars a year. That’s just too sloppy of a ship for me. Either give me a better product or lower your price but I'm not leaving that much money on the table when given the choice.
Casey
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So how much does it really cost the federal government to give out a $22,000 grant? I don’t know, but not $22,000
Apologies for homing in on just one small aspect of your multi-point post, but I think you've gone the wrong way with this one...
Let's assume that the Govt gets back 15% - in the form of income tax - on each element of the grant, i.e. the bit they provided & the bit you provided. We'll ignore capital taxation because, as you said, that gets written off if you do the paperwork right... So, the tax on $51K is $7,650. So that $22k grant now costs $14,350. However, that doesn't take into account costs. How many people did it take to do the paperwork at the government end? How many inspectors had to come out & how often, to make sure you were spending the money in the right place & not just buying cold beer with it? Did the grant have to be carefully accounted for when you come to do your tax return?
I'd be willing to bet that the $7650 "saved" in taxes - and possibly a significant chunk of extra - is actually well spent in administrivia, compliance and the taxation department. Remember, the government is buying something for someone else with someone else's money: Value for money is simply not on their radar...
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Hi AdeV,
Let's all remember nothing is perfect.
I got caught up in marginal costs vs. fixed costs a few years ago. How much does this product or service cost to be put in my hands. Now it's kind of fuzzy logic but an interesting way to look at costs. Did you hire someone to do the work or did you just keep someone busy(ier)? Did your rent change because I bought this product from you? Yes I know we have to cover those fixed costs but let's not worship them when pricing. Marginal cost for an NSF check is less than a dollar including postage. Throw in fixed costs is another dollar. So why do some banks charge $35 for a NSF check? To make a profit. That's why they are eager to open $100 accounts - they're more likely to have NSF checks. How many $27 bad checks does it take to change a landing light on a private jet? Landing lights can eat the bottom out of your P&L but that's better than showing obscene profits on the sicknesses of children.
Back on topic:
USDA agency hours – inspections, support, audits probably come out to 20 hours @ $50/hr=$1,000. All the other processes are included in the grant. Some of my time isn’t covered but that’s not a dollar cost and I had to pay for the building permit fees out of my pocket. (Somehow I don’t think they put anyone new on at the building department to process my paperwork and do the two on-site inspections.) Remember the USDA and county employees pay taxes on their wages too.
Politicians call it the multiplier effect. Retailers call it turns. I call it spins. ;) How many transactions or times will this money change hands and collect taxes in the next year. The state doesn’t mind the 4% sales tax nor the 8% state income tax.
The point of all this is that pretty much the same people wrote the rules and regulations for this program are writing the health care insurance program. Will there be waste? Of course. I think the corporate jets down at the Kona airport for Christmas is a kind of waste too. Will there be problems? Of course. You don’t know anyone that’s been screwed over by their health insurance provider? (To be honest I’ve always gotten very good service from my insurance covered medical services and I actually like both of the HMOs I’ve worked with.) Controlling language? When’s the last time you applied for a house loan? Ok, you didn’t have to say “Aaahhh” nor cough but they inspected a whole bunch of stuff and you were made to know who the lender was and where you sat.
I think I’m more influenced by the staggering lies than the momentary peeks at the truth (both sides). Some planning and orderliness in our lives is a good thing and should be there for our nations' children.
Casey
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Politicians call it the multiplier effect. Retailers call it turns. I call it spins. ...
Sounds like trickle down economics at work to me...
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Sounds like trickle down economics at work to me...
It does, doesn’t it? Unfortunately the $22,000 actually starts with the taxes collected from most everyone. The eternal struggle. Trickle down vs. Trickle up. Where does the power begin? I call it spins. ...
The good news is that many Americans are taking a greater interest in their government. These town meetings do have the odor of democracy about them. Now what will our representative form of government do with all the information flow? And please keep the notion in mind of "Loyal Opposition".
Casey
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We need general strikes, work ins and LOUD complaints about goverment on a variety of subjects not just health care.
BUT health care is a dam good flash point that everyone can agree on. Its too expensive and too many are getting rich at the expense of too many who are falling through the cracks.
I don't know whats coming in the future but it seems more and more of the same boom, bust, rot, and a mad race to try and make up for it before the rotting begins again. We are falling behind in quality of life and its tied directly to wealth or lack there of.
Another jobless recovery is about to begin and the newly unemployed from this rescesion will face and uncertan future. Next we will hear about productivity gains and factory orders up and the top 10% are going to pocket the difference.
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Well Doug and Low Gear;
I'm pretty conservative, however I see some of the problems the same way you do. I just don't see the same solutions.
I believe that Woodrow Wilson sold us down the river when he signed the Federal Reserve Act. That's been sucking the cream off our economy for almost a century. If that wasn't happening, we might not have the deficits we now have.
Our Congress is full of small minded plebians that think of their power, getting re-elected and money for their home towns and family buisnesses that can't be traced back to them very easily. Every bill includes about 20% earmarks for the previously mentioned. It's like a sales commision, but I think it's immoral because I don't want to pay for it, and of course, the debt.
Follow that up with a populace that thinks it's fine to tell someone else what they should give, and why everything is some one else's fault or responsibility. It's a perfect storm.
Now thier idea of shouting out against political or industrial robbery is fine. Funny how the mainstream media assigns motive. Most complainers either want something, or they want to not be paying for something. The rest is pretty much window dressing.
No one is talking about tort reform, or making medical care easier and cheaper to access. That steps on the toes of trial lawyers and licensed doctors.
Newt Gingrech and Hilary Clinton worked together (breifly) to find an affordable way to bring healthcare to people at a much lower cost. I want that. A bipartisan way to modernize healthcare with computers and home access where doctors and billing are reduced, yet medical accidents are reduced as well.
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For the all of human history we have made the same mistake.
We try to grow out of our problems:
Farmer is poor needs help on the farm has lots of kids to do the work. Some lived some died....
In the senoral ( SP ) system in old lower Canada the farmer would subdivide his porperty to give to his sons. It didn't take to long befrore the land could not suport a man let alone a family.
In order to suport 19 century Empires the same things happened we need to bring wealth in from other place once the mother counrty has outgrown its own food and raw material needs. Eventualy empires ( and super powers ) fall when they no longer can pay the bills.
Today we continue to try and grow out of old age pension problems and medicare issues. Its not the boomers fault they got old and its not the solution for us to bring in more people to fill a job void that does not exist.
Now in 2009 we have seen once again you can't grow beyond your means this time by borrowing on credit. But we are still trying to grow our way out of trouble with all the spending gov has done and they borrowed it to do it to boot!
People I know the idea of rationing disgusts a lot of you free martket conservative believers. But we have reached a point where the capacity of the nation to carry more people ona free for all system has passed ( in the US at any rate ) .
Valueless papper money with nothing got back it.
Imports of every type of comodity to cover shortfalls
An ecconomic and production system based on the need for continued growth fast trun over and planned obsolesnce.
If we want to get old without fear we need to find ways to do it that do not force us to steal from the furture ( debt ).
Reduce the need for imports ( export of wealth ) especialy the here today am burned off kind.
Keep growth in check along with population so we can aford to leave someting for the future and pay the bills today.
That much said about my ecconomic theory we need tomake choices about how we willcare for people knowing we don not have the option of unlimiited growth. We need to learn to be responsible for how we live and stay healthy. We need to know the limits for what we can afford to pay to cure and care for and we need to plan ahead. Socialized medicne is very good at setting limits but realy sucks at finding efficiency. Free markets are good at being efficient but need to grow to pay the bills.
And a 3rd way has not been put forward for this or any of our other problems....
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Doug,
That was a good summary, and describes the aging of nations.
In Holland, the Gov't collects the money for health care, then disburses it as coupons for citizen to buy care from competitive providers. That is one way to keep capitalism working it's eficiency thing, but also having the total number of dollars pe-set so crooks in the system can't easily 'grow' the costs.
I don't believe that the US is in it's sunset years.
However I do agree that it will be if we stay on our current course.
Just staying on health care, I believe the undiscussed modernization of health care delivery can cut costs enough to do the job if the sacred rice bowl can be broken.
The primary special interests here are: the People Seeking Care, The Providers of Care, The Lawyers, The Financiers.
Some in this group have met with the writers of he Health care reform bill to make sure thier rice bowl is not damaged.
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Iron rice bowls how interesting you know that old leftists/chinese proverb.
I dont know how the Dutch system works but I bet it should be looked at VERY closely....
Sunset years Probably not but the age of the super power is coming to a close not just for the US but in general because of the true cost of money wasted on weapons and Empire building ( no empire can last ).
All this postering in the arctic right now bother me because as the ice melts people think there is this treasure trove of resources up there. All the time and money wasted on building up our navy and build new bases to " Protect our assets ' from the no "Goonick Russians" and "mine mine mine Americans"....
Tell you how that plays out right now What ever money is in the ground will be wasted 4 fold over building ships and arguing about and well all end up DEAPER in debt.....
This was a stupid idea....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Mine
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Doug:
Good Synopsys of two economic systems. In socialist systems or, the big bear, communist systems the rationing of goods and services usually ends up by line waiting. In the capitalistic model goods and services are rationed by price. Please understand that goods and services are rationed in any system. Poor rich people. I always feel soooo sorry for them. But whether you throw your weight around with dollars or influences of any kind there will always be a privileged class.
We’re broke very much like the USSR was twenty-some years ago. We are going to hit some very rough times. For whom is the road always bumpiest? The poor and the aged. Now I fit into one of those groups but the really tough part is that around 1/3 (pretty close I think) of the poor are under the age of 12. I’m shooting for self sufficiency. What about government subsidized ice flows? The polar bears would be brought back from the edge of extinction and Al Gore would be refuted. Win - Win.
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Well the Average Soviet person was healthier and lived longer than the Average American from what I read. Basic health care and a healthier diet and lifestyle were the main reasons. However Chronic conditions in the soiviet union meant you were likely not going to live as long as an American with say a bad heart of lung desease ( with insurance ).
This is realy pointless to discuss however because that was 20 years ago and we live in today under a completely different system with new challenges.
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Doouuuug?
What's so different?
Casey
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Well for starters the expensive care unit now has more kinds of tests and test equipment than ever before in history. Even the best hospitals 20 years ago were basicly telling you lung cancer for example was a death sentence. Now we have better ( read expensive ) treatments and better diagnostics to catch it earlier ( read starts getting expensive sooner )....
Aids used to be a death sentence but like so many other conditions thanks to modern drugs AIDS has now almost become cronic and people live for years and years longer....
Just two examples of why health care is exploding in cost....
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I guess I would like to put in my 2 cents. Of course with inflation it would now equal 2000 dollars. Our nation has been strong all those years because we had something the rest of the world wanted. It seemed to continue to work because we had open arms for everyone who wanted to come and in return the imagrints made a commitement to the US. This is still happening but not as it use to be. We have a large share of people who just come here for a free ride. A large share of people. I know the arguements that these people are doing jobs no one else would do. The "JOBS" were being done by Americans before and they would still be done if no one else would do them. unemployment is at its all time high and the lower class jobs are still in demand.
Now the next problem is that the quality of our health care is second to none. In most ways this is good. People are living much longer than even 50 years ago. It has been predicted that 90 % of a persons medical expense is spent the last 6 months of thier life. Twenty years ago this was less than 50 %. This has created a large expence towards government and private insurance companies.
Another is that ther is a large influx of people who have never donated a penny towards medical coverage and yet they expect the same medical treatment that everyone else who has been paying thier entire life. People are crossing the boarder at such an alarming rate it would scare you. We have girls coming to the US to have thier babies just so number one they get better care and number two the babies are citizens. Well for all of you who didn't know obstrecticts is one of the largest malpractice specialities only second to neuro surgery. Now these woman have had no prenatal care. If the babies are born with complications it is not unsual to spend 1/2 million dollars on them. You have to spend it because if you dont even if they are not citizens there are lawyers out there that will help them get paid for what they think is our fault.
Next I suppose explain why health care continues to climb. Some of it is related to greed. This is only a small precentage of it. There are more test run than use to be. The cost of these test continues to climb. This is all because there is no such thing as an HONEST MISTAKE and in some cases it really wasn't a mistake. It use to be that sometimes things just did not turn out the way we thought it would. We use to call them risk. Risk now are considered mistakes until proven other wise. Litigation cost a fair amount of everyones doctor bill they get every time the visit the doctor.
Now we have the BABY BOMMERS hitting the retirement age. The average family is now 2 to 3 members. This includes the parents. Inother words the average family of 2 parents and 3 or 4 children is almost unheard of except minorities. This is why anglo's are slowly becoming a minority with the hispanic slowly becoming # 1.
So what are the solutions. Solutions are like belly buttions, everyone has one. One solution wil be that people who live in the US are going to have to start respecting the US and work for a stronger US. I cant tell you how much is irks me when I hear how crappy the US is just before someone expects medical care with no intention to pay for it. I have other ideas of what might help bu I will keep them to myself. I dont wish to offend anyone. Almost all of us were imagrints at one time. So I suppose I need to come down from my soab box and quit befoe I offend someone. DRDEATH
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Seems to me first things first the Gov needs to look at what they need to do and stay only in the buisness of doing those things....
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I think this thread died a premature death.....
Opinion please.
And now for some somber music about strugle in the darkness and cold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVY8LoM47xI
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First secure the borders. Second put the free loaders to work. if nothing else picking up trash along the highways, must pass drug test to get check. Send all illleagles back from whence they came. If we can trace one damn cow from slaughter back to across borders and back to its mother we can surely find all of these damned illeagles. vote NO on this damned health care\obama care\insurence reform what ever you want to call it. This is just another foot in the door. We have enough feet in the door after W and hell I voted for him. If this crap is passed I think it will be time to feed the tree, if the time has not already passed. I will not even start on a certain religous group of peace that needs to be reighned in.
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Well becareful not all those nice private entrprisers ( Privateers ) are realy on your side.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl-CfQvz21Y&feature=related
( Stan Thompson kick this week )
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Let them eat bread!
[/color]
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I agree. End crony capitalism. End Federal Reserve. Limit Fractional Banking. Stop Deficit Spending. No workee - No getee. We are too top heavy, supporting the political class and their cronies. They are not helping us, they are gleaning us and leaving unfunded promises that can not be kept.
The economic and cultural convulsions would result in illegals fleeing for the borders.
Be prepared to feed you neighbor and cousin like in the old days.... :-\
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You have to be careful sometimes you don't go to far.
I no workee and I no gettee right now thanks to an incr4easingly ugly strike.
Howver I realy wanna workee right now and I suspect this of most people.....
Good news I hear the ecconomy is growing again. Don't you all just feel spiffy now?
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Doug;
Of course I say that somewhat tounge in cheek. My point being that responsibility in society does not go away just because the people might cut off the government funding.
Family and church used to take up that job, but with some strings attached that usually had the recipient wanting to get back on their feet a little sooner? No-one could say it was evenly distributed or fair.
Hope the economy picks up quick, and you get back to work at a decent wage.
Scott
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Well I don't see any end in sight the company is for the first time ever trying to restart opperations durring a strike.
I have some bad feelings about that not just because they are showing no interest in negotiating but because there are some significant safety issues they don't seem to care about. The Staff they are going to send into the stopes haven;t done this kind of work in some cases for avery long time and the areas they will be working ( the richest and best areas ) also tend to be some of the most labour intensive and dangerous.
I have friend going in there and I worry about them to be honest. No mallace they have been told to do this its not an option for them.
I have a job interview so hopefuly I can back to work untill this all plays out.
And the sooner we all start to get back to work the sooner there will be money there for what ever comes out of this health care things you folks are so concerned over....
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Doug,
hoping you can get work soon :)
and yes, big corporations may not be your friend, but then again neither is big government :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRaOBWegbCQ
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Didn't have time to read all the posts but I can share my experiences while living in the UK for 4 years in 1986 to 1990. It was excellent and free, no complaints.
Our taxes are about the same.
My recent experiences with heathcare here in the good ole beloved US of A are: getting rush through a yearly physical exam in about 12 minutes so the provider could get as many done in an hour as possible to imrove profits. Having all my ailments basically ignored.
Having my pharmecutical medications dropped because the insurance didn't want to pay for them anymore.
1 round of blood tests a month for 4 months totaling $13,000 (yes that is right, thousands), of which I had to pay 20 percent. I finally told the arthritus doctor I couldn't pay for those monthly blood tests so he told me he couldn't keep me on the arthritus medicine so now I live in alot of pain.
I spent 5 hours on a gurnee in an emergency room with several other people, with 2 iv's and a few xrays and got a bill for $8,000. That was my portion. I was sent home after a few shoulder shrugs by the ER doctors because they had no idea why I lost consciousness 3 times that day (no I hadn't been drinking).
I am insured and considered to be lucky to be insured. God help those who have no insurance.
I would gladly move back to the UK if I could. I was once very patriotic, but I really don't care to live in this country anymore.
BTW. In case you haven't figured it out yet, big corporations = big governement.
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Found this rather amusing:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/618fb6cbf2/gus-porter-american-legend-with-thomas-haden-church
Jason
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Just my $0.02 worth...I've been spending 12 hours per day or so up on the new roof, and am so tired I'm asleep by 8pm so haven't checked or read all the postings, sorry guys.
Got to chime in on this one though. Been a proponent of government sponsored health care all my life. Tommy Douglas is my hero. Problem in Canada now is the neo-con governments (up here the provincial governments are responsible for health care) are trying like crazy to kill it. Their best strategy is to try and underfund it to starve it to death. Unfortunately for them, fortunately for me, there's an election every few years and they try and buy our votes by dumping enough $$$$ into the pot that it's just barely staying alive.
We have a libertarian think tank out west here called the "Fraser Institute" thats mission statement proudly promotes it's mission is to "redirect public attention to the role of competative markets in providing for the well being of the public in health and education". Yah right? ??? Since when has "competative markets" ever been interested in the well being of anybody except maybe the CEO and a handfull of his buddies.
I thought the recent shenanigans of the high and mighty south of the border getting the million dollar bonuses for running their companies into the ground would have taught us something about "competative markets". :-\ I guess not up here in BC anyway.
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How easy we seem to forget what it was that made our countries great.
And as we choke out the last of the free enterprise. . . we wonder. . . what's going wrong?
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We have a libertarian think tank out west here called the "Fraser Institute" thats mission statement proudly promotes it's mission is to "redirect public attention to the role of competative markets in providing for the well being of the public in health and education". Yah right? ??? Since when has "competative markets" ever been interested in the well being of anybody except maybe the CEO and a handfull of his buddies.
Actually Stan, in earlier times (early to mid C20th England, in particular), companies did rather well by their workforces, recognising that a happy healthy workforce meant better productivity, better staff retention, etc. This was also true of some Victorian companies, although not all for sure. As soon as Government steps in, however - with the NHS in the UK - it ceases to be worthwhile for an employer to provide their own healthcare. Especially as they're having to pay for the national one as well.
Interestingly, when the economy is doing well and companies are struggling to recruit workers, the provision of private healthcare is often added to an employment package to make it seem more attractive to potential employees. You won't see much of that just now, though, as there's loads of potental workers, many of whom will do anything for a job.
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Stan is right about the way the Provincial goverments cheap out on health care them spend like drunken salorts at electrion time. Thats killing things....
Good health care is not a buisness its a right. There is room for buisness in health care but the goals need to be make and keep people well not create wealth for share holders.
If we have learned anything since the 80s about free markets and loosening regulations on big buisness they always take advantage of that to enrich the share holders. Sometimes this is good if your an big investor or pension fund. But the little guy doesn't gain much. Infact all throw the growth of the 80s and 90s working people lost ground ( those at least that didn't have strong unions and COLA built into contracts ). The people that did make a lot of money didn't pay a lot of tax on it. Big money invested in ways to make more money and often that lead to job looses and out sourcing.
Now the tax base has eroded and we have a mess. You can't blame big buisness their job is to make money and social costs are not their cost.
Ye sin the past there were many big buisnesses that looked after their workers, but those days are gone. Todays worker is a cost he is a cost to train and a cost to care for, his retirement is a cost and his family is a cost. His skills are not a value as they used to be because most jobs do not require years of hand on experience and craftsmanship. Manual labour is done by machines or cheaper in som cases to off shore.
This is the new reality buisness has to survive by cutting costs and people. Deskilling work and ridding themselfs of liabilities pensions and benefits.
Goverment has to decide if they are going to step into the roll that employers once filled and they need to figuere out what is a priority in the new world and who to tax to pay for it....
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Just my $0.02 worth...I've been spending 12 hours per day or so up on the new roof, and am so tired I'm asleep by 8pm so haven't checked or read all the postings, sorry guys.
<snip>
I thought the recent shenanigans of the high and mighty south of the border getting the million dollar bonuses for running their companies into the ground would have taught us something about "competative markets". :-\ I guess not up here in BC anyway.
Stan,
don't confuse government controlled businesses as being "competitive markets" In a normal world those companies would be out of business by dint of their unscrupulous business practices, not labeled as "too big to fail" and then tossed billions of taxpayer dollars.
And BTW did you know there is another health care bill floating around congress these days? You don't hear much about it what with the thug-in-chief and the media doing their best to foist their own monstrosity on us but check it out
http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/Solutions/EmpoweringPatientsFirstAct.htm
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Doug:
You assert in the begining of your post that health care is a RIGHT.
Then you go on thru the rest of your post proving that it is not.
Healthcare would be much better for you if it were directed by you. The only way that can happen is if you are controlling the money going in to your own care. No-one else (except your family) has as much interest in your health as you do.
"He who pays the piper calls the tune".
Health care bennefit should be a pay addendum from your employer. You direct that toward your health care bills, with overages into a healthcare savings account, or an insurance account. You shop for the best deal or the best quality....taylored to whatever you think is best for you. Your care runs out when your money runs out.
Every other system will let you down all along the way. It runs up big government debt and robs people not yet born.
What's best for me or for my society? I don't know what to say.
*while I was writing this mkdutchman posted the link to Empowering Patients First Act. That looks like it has possibilities to cover both of the scenareos I described.
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Your care runs out when your money runs out.
The current system is flat unworkable.
Why?
Because costs are rising at about 22% per year, year over year.
Are your wages rising at that pace?
How about the company you're working for? Is it growing at that pace?
Are prices of their products or labor increasing at that pace?
I am all for a govt offered option. I don't want the govt deciding anything for my care, but I would like the option. If they were smart, they would create a huge fund and self insure from that. If the insurance companies decided they wanted to compete, fine. If not, then goodby.
All the while, I would have the option of choosing what insurance I wanted.
It also INFURIATES me that I walked into the ER with no insurance about a year ago and am charged prices three times higher than the insurance companies pay, and I was paying cash!
I would love to see the entire system decimated and rebuilt from the ground up.
And, no I don't buy the whole "govt can't run it BS". Funny thing is we are 37th in quality of care of industrial countries. Seems interesting that the countries that are doing better than us don't have folks dropping like flies and the govts in many cases are overseeing their healthcare.
Just like I shouldn't need to go see a GP to get a referral to a specialist that I already know I needed to see...
It's stupid.
Steve
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Shipchief we are in the beginning of something that scares the crap out of me. An era where power and money are concetrating themselves in the hands of people who do not have our best interests at heart. People who enrich themselves at our expence and beat us over the head sying THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT AND YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT.
I have no idea how to solve this problem or do I even undersatnd the scope of it.
But something is wrong when a baby in Cuba has a lower risk of death than the USA. Thats just an example I would not want to live in Cuba as is because from my own personal experince the place is fucked I been there and seen that.
Now the world is fucked because we can't pay our bills and no matter how hard I try or you or the next guy we are falling behind the real cost of paying for everything from a trip to the doctors office to pint beer and no one seems to want to blame goverment AND big buisness. OUR pension funds are to blame, the banks are to blame Gov is to blame, robots are to blame scarce cheap oil is to blame.
You and I are to blame.....
So does throwing a baby in the lake to teach him to swim solve the problem?
Does codling the union people like me solve the problem?
Does electing a Fascist or Socialist gov solve the problem?
Damned if I know but brother we have a problem......
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Ultimately, we are to blame for the healthcare systems we have - the US, UK, Canada, Australia, all of us. After all, we elected the politicians who put the rules - or, indeed, the institutions - in place.
It's easy to say "it wasn't my fault" however. I'm guilty of that, I guess we all are, at least some of the time. As individuals, we have little opportunity to change the system ourselves; but sitting back and saying "hey, it's not my fault, and there's nothing I can do about it" is, in fact, contributing to the problem...whatever the problem is.
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Dont worry.... Im watching Mr President right now.... He says everything is gonna be great!
And I know he means it because he raises his voice when he says it and all the Idiots applaud!
Must be right! ::)
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It seems as though we all keep going around and around on who's to blame and how we got into the political fix we're now in.
I believe at the heart of all our political issues is the power of advertising, the media industry has become a very powerful tool for the political systems all across the world. The mass majority of the world population (at least those that have a say) are glued to the TV, radio and recently the internet. Our leaders have realized the potential of this and have capitalized on it over the last 40 or so years.
Those of us that are really paying attention try to call them on the BS, but the masses just follow the cattle call towards the bright light of socialism salvation. You want to know why, because it's easy! No muss, no fuss, big bro will take care of it.
Here in the U.S. We've been led by our noses for years, we thought we controlled the government, but truth is they've had blinders on us for years. I know, they step up and say "Now, now, you misunderstand what I'm saying . . . . then they very skillfully lay a very smooth line of bull sh*t in front of you and the masses buy it and all is well, for a while.
In a nutshell the REAL problems here in the U.S. came about when politics became a profession, then it boiled down to the two political parties fighting for the attention of the american public, well then it became no holds barred. As the process became more complex it was easier for them to hide their mistakes and lie to us. And with the power of the mass media, it became easy for politicians to win over the masses with charisma, who needs facts?
It makes me hang my head in shame to be such a pessimist, I'm really a fun loving guy, but we're all being duped here, today, right now, by our government, not the first time, not the last. It's not republican, it's not democrats, hell if they didn't have each other to fight with, they'd have to fight with us!
We can keep going around and around on how to fix it, sorry, that's not going to happen any time soon. We're going to end up in a real quagmire of social discontent first. then some hard lessons about humanity and self preservation, then, maybe we'll get back to some sort of civil discourse.
Like I say, sorry to be such a pessimist, but the foundation of our society will have to be rocked before any serious change will happen. Just take a look at history, funny how it repeats itself, but the masses never learn!
Murph'
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as they say "man generally will not change until he has a compellling reason to do so"
we are seeing change shoved down our throat just like momma did with the bottle of
castor oil.
what has surprised me is people are starting to wake up, and bring pressure to bear on those we have elected
and more pressure needs to be brought down on them, their feet need to be held to the fire.
the problem is there needs to be massive change in washington before they start looking to fix us and our problems
obama says, i will pay for health care changes by cutting the waste out of medicare
if there is 600billion in waste to cut out of medicare, why not cut the fat out first so that there would be proof
that there is that sort of money kicking around.
how about a little tort reform? oh ya,,, can't do that, its the friggin atty's that run washington, they sure as hell
are not going to cut their umbilical cord to the gravy train now are they?
i don't see a good solution, or worse i see a bad end to this story.
what can i do as an individual?
well not much in the peoples republic of western washington, but
perhaps my extra pocket change could go to other races in other states where
some one of these socialist ultraliberal congressman are in trouble in the polls
perhaps i can make more of a difference with my contributions steering them toward races
where it might really make a difference in turning the tide?
i suspect if we all did the same and got out and passed the hat for some of these races maybe we could change
things up a bit in washington
harry reid is behind in his home state of nevada, i am thinking some of my money will go toward the election of
he opposition and get that slob out of power
maybe there is a few others?
maybe that way i end up changing things in my own district, if i can get their party out of power, maybe things can be changed
up a bit, to where the next election cycle i can work to unseat some of them around here?
i have tried everything else? why not?
i got folks i never got to vote for in washington telling me how i got to live in my state, so maybe
this is my way of turning a bit of heat back on washington,, even if it is very small
bob g
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I watched the president last night and IMO he blew it. He had a strong chance of establishing a true NHS and all he did is suggest a knotted up rats nest of several plans. It all looks bad to me.
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Let us eat bread!
Please get off Medicare if you don't like socialized services. It's not mandatory. Just open up those 401Ks and pay for yours, mom’s and dad’s medical and profiteering insurance needs. While you’re at your desk why not stop accepting your Social Security money once you get your investment plus a fair return. Let’s close down public schools, fire stations, police services, public roads…… Department of Defense……. You’ve heard it all before from me and my brother. Get consistent.
If you, brave stalwarts of courage and moral fortitude, can’t or won’t do the right thing why do you fault “We the People” weak collective sheep?
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Casey
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All that it would take to sort this mess out would be for the Congress and Senate members to get the same health plan benifits that the average taxpayer (that is funding their health care) gets ;) ! No more, no less. Probably should do the same for pensions. Problem solved! Pay for the plans by stop spending money on useless, immoral wars that only seem to exist to give taxpayer money to a small group of favored contractors. A few years ago one of my Senators introduced a law to make war profiteering illegal. The law was voted down 98 to 2! That means the Senators of every state except California thinks it's proper for the taxpayers to give truckloads of tax dollars to a small group of already wealthy friends with no restrictions :o !!! (Go ahead pals, grab all you can get!) Unlimited money for killing people but they can't afford to help the over burdened working family ??? !! What's up with that :o ! The working class is being ripped off big time but the TV tells them everything is OK, trust us :D ! The shame is it doesn't have to be like this, there are other ways to structure the system, but any ideas outside the 2 party system are presented as crazy and there is never any serious discussion about what the taxpayer needs and deserves. The Media is controlled by the people that benifit from the system the way it is :-X ! I expect any health care industry reform law will be written by the health care industry itself and will benifit them much more than the taxpayers :'( ! My .02 ! Leland P.S. anybody think I overuse the emoteacons? ::) ??? :-\ :)
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;D
Yes.
:o
::)
:-*
:'(
;)
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Lowgear, I apologize if some of what I said offended you. Perhaps I misinterpreted your last post, but here's my stats:
• I'm self-employed, I pay for my own health insurance, no help from uncle sam.
• I have about 20 years before I might be able to get any sort of Social Security. Honestly, I have serious doubts if there will be any left when I reach that age, so I'm making other retirement plans.
•I pay my property taxes which support the roads, the fire department and the local schools, I do it faithfully because I really care about what happens in my local community.
I try my darnest to do the right thing and I will protect the constitution with my life if necessary.
What I was trying to point out is the fact that way too many of us are asleep at the wheel. Casey you are a man that I admire, you're up for a healthy debate, your involved and obviously passionate about our countries future, very cool!
But honestly, look around you and consider the stats of voter turnouts of the last oh so many years, and how many of those did any kind of research other than what was feed to them by the mass media?
I agree, it will take "We the People" to form a more perfect union, I'd just like to get some sense of we the people running the union. Too many expect the solutions to come from the Federal government, the solutions should be coming for the local communities! Yes indeed we the people can solve most of our problems, but first we have to wake up look around and help one another out!
With respect,
Murph'
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Hi Murph,
I've only been offended on this site once and not by a nice guy like you. I truly love this country as you do. Loving anyone or thing also includes knowing their shortcomings. If you can’t see the shortcomings then it’s called worship.
I don't live in the "Good Old Days" for many reasons besides thinking they are mostly myth. Most of the cultures that spend much time in the past have my sympathy. Life is here, now and in the hopeful future. I will always love and respect my father. I still, at 65, laugh at how much influence if not control he has on me 35 years after his death. Probably more than when he was alive. But he released me to live my life and wished me a good journey. May you all enjoy this level of freedom.
Your motives for supporting your local culture are as honorable as any we’ll ever hear. You may notice that I don’t complain about my taxes either because I want to live in a great country too and that takes money. But your list is of “socialist styled” programs. They are managed in a government top down format and supported by money that is taken from the people with the threat of force. Don’t pay your property taxes for three years here in Washington and they’ll come and take it away from you and they will be wearing guns. Screw with them and you’ll go to jail. Most of the truly important jobs in all cultures are done in a socialist fashion. I am so sorry and concerned that my neo conservative associates can’t or won’t see this simple truth. It would be a beautiful world if good works people would come forward and do the difficult tasks but they don’t. Hence we, like all societies now and in history, opt for the socialist model.
Health care is a life and death situation just like house fires and assaults. This proposed program is a health insurance answer something like Medicare where the government pretty much stays out of the doctor’s offices and hospitals. And no I don’t believe the rhetoric of President Obama about lower costs and efficiencies. But if you believe this government can or would install death councils and survive then I urge you to get off the computer right now and go find some professional mental health care whether you pay for it by Visa, Blue Cross or Atnea. (If Blue Cross or Atnea finds out though you better hold on to your current policy because they won’t want your new business.) Don’t lose sight of the current health insurance companies that deliver death sentences everyday through “refused service”, “no experimental authorized”, complete policy cancellations and, as above, refusing the business of folks with prior conditions. Insurance companies are a cost plus business model. The more things cost this year the more they can charge next year. 30% more of more is more.
Cheers,
Low Gear
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It's true. "We the people...." are letting and have been letting all this happen for so long without any kind of protest to speak of. My son who is British visited me a few weeks ago and interprets that the 2nd amendment was put in place to form a militia to prevent the government from doing things "We the people" object to. I wonder what the impact (hypothetically speaking, of course) would be if several million people showed up in Washington excercising their 2nd amendment?
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Your care runs out when your money runs out.
The current system is flat unworkable.
Why?
Because costs are rising at about 22% per year, year over year.
<snip>
It's stupid.
Steve
And why are costs rising so fast? Can you say "malpractice insurance"? I would love to see a cost breakdown of a doctor's costs year by year. I'm betting that those "greedy insurance companies" may not be so much the villain after all. I know there are some real doctors on here. What do they have to say?
Lowgear,
You seem like a nice guy, but I find myself disagreeing with you a lot :) I hope you don't mind
First, I have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare. zip, zilch, nada. I pay no SS taxes, and no benefits from uncle sam will be coming my way when I retire. I have an ss number, but as far as ss is concerned I only exist. No taxes, no benefits. To me Social Security is just plain wrong.
Second, my $200 a month church sponsered medical plan, which would be phased out under obamacare BTW, has always been upfront and helpful and administered locally, not by some bureaucrat. Also covers my entire family BTW. Why would I want a government plan?
Third, if my house catches fire, the nice firemen who will put it out for me won't expect a dime for their effort. We have over a dozen small locally operated, volunteer fire companies in a ten mile radius. very fast, very professional, absolutely dedicated to their job, and not because they're getting paid for it. I have a lot of respect and admiration for them, having seen them in action many times. The cops will be paid of course, and i don't begrudge them that. But even the EMT/ambulance crew is a volunteer service around here
Most of the truly important jobs in all cultures are done in a socialist fashion. I am so sorry and concerned that my neo conservative associates can’t or won’t see this simple truth. It would be a beautiful world if good works people would come forward and do the difficult tasks but they don’t. Hence we, like all societies now and in history, opt for the socialist model.
Yes, government is socialistic in nature. That's why we don't want much of it!! And if you start getting people to rely on the gov for services they should be doing themselves it's very very hard to turn it back. Don't believe me? why don't you vist some of the welfare communities? It would open your eyes I'm sure.
The bottom line here is that gov wants to grow bigger, not smaller, and someone else will be gaining more control over your life. For the life of me I can't understand why that concept is so hard to grasp. Again, someone else will be making the decisions for you, decisions that only you should be making. For me, that's not acceptable.
Or to put it another way, I don't want more gov in my life precisely because of the gov I already have. I've had to deal with USPS, Amtrak, IRS, and we've often had to deal with the local township, as well as the county. Try getting some accountability out of any of them. A corporation you can at least tell to go to you-know-where. Try doing that with a gov entity.
The latest example is a letter sent out to all businesses informing them that effective immediately all work done on the home by an outside contractor, totaling over $500 in value must be preceded by a signed contract, and effective immediately all contractors who do over $500 worth of work in a month must be registered with the state in order to "protect the consumer" And you need to pay X amount to renew the registration, blah,blah,blah
Oh yah, we want to protect the consumer, ::)
Or how about PA's "stuffed toy registration law" where any person making and selling a stuffed toy will need to apply for a permit to do so? And will need to apply for and receive a number to affix to the teddy bear or whatever so that if some poor kid chokes on the toy "we can go back and determine if all applicable safety laws were followed in making the toy"
Really?!? How about some consumer responsibility?!??
Again, the argument that "more gov is okay because we already have a lot of gov to start with" is total crap IMO
Health care is a life and death situation just like house fires and assaults. This proposed program is a health insurance answer something like Medicare where the government pretty much stays out of the doctor’s offices and hospitals. And no I don’t believe the rhetoric of President Obama about lower costs and efficiencies. But if you believe this government can or would install death councils and survive then I urge you to get off the computer right now and go find some professional mental health care whether you pay for it by Visa, Blue Cross or Atnea. (If Blue Cross or Atnea finds out though you better hold on to your current policy because they won’t want your new business.) Don’t lose sight of the current health insurance companies that deliver death sentences everyday through “refused service”, “no experimental authorized”, complete policy cancellations and, as above, refusing the business of folks with prior conditions. Insurance companies are a cost plus business model. The more things cost this year the more they can charge next year. 30% more of more is more.
Health care is a life and death situation, absolutely correct. That's why I want to be making the decisions concerning my healthcare, not the gov
And no, the gov will not be staying out of doctor's offices and medical decisions. "He who pays the piper calls the tune" It works the same way here. Have you even read the bill? Did you see the place where the "health commissar/czar" is tasked with "determining a doctor's pay"? If I were a doctor that would scare the living cr*p out of me. And I think I also saw a couple of places where guidelines are given on when to refuse treatment, and what dollar amount to go by to determine the worth of a life, basically. And regards "death panels", a panel that has the power to evaluate treatment for another human being and either grant it or deny it has, I'm sorry to say, great potential for becoming a death panel. And considering that 52 new boards/panels/bureaucracies will be set up (not a typo) all treatment decisions will be fast and effective, right? ::) In your dreams, that is.
Regards the current insurance companies, how will you be improving things by replacing the drive for money with the drive for power, or even worse, plain old mediocrity?
I know one thing for a fact, I've never become more involved in the political process other than voting every chance I had. I always thought I was doing my duty and that was good enough, this year and the next that's going to change.........
I have the misfortune to have the specter spectacle for my district (note that he doesn't even come close to representing me) and I'm going to be doing everything I can to get his sorry keister kicked out next year. And while I'm at it I'll probably be seeing what I can do to help some other challengers in some districts. reid, boxer, and pelosi opponents come to mind.....
MLG,
Ther is a big march planned on DC tomorrow. May be interesting......
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Would anyone like to join a comune deap in the PNW hills?
I'm so feed up with everything I could easily be motivated to become the Utility/power guy......
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How about we pool our money, buy an island and form our own country? Call it little Listerville!
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...plain old mediocrity?
I know one thing for a fact, I've never become more involved in the political process other than voting every chance I had. I always thought I was doing my duty and that was good enough, this year and the next that's going to change.........
Good. No GREAT!!!!
And, I would strongly encourage others to do so as well.
I am SO tired of the whole govt workers=mediocrity line of thinking.
I for one am no doorknob and would welcome your experience, intelligence, business accumen, etc to help out.
But beware, you might just figure out first-hand that most of the people that you and others are so quick to criticize are actually fairly sharp and on the ball; and that there are legit reasons for things being done the way they are done.
Then what???
Have you ever tried to take a room full of 100 people and attempted to create rules that please everyone and are legal at the same time? Try it sometime; it's far, far tougher than you think.
And yes, I hate big govt as much as the rest of you. However, there needs to be some form of structure to the mayham, and the wild west concept isn't very realisitic.
What we currently have is very messy from a process standpoint. However, it's still one of the best in the world. My biggest gripe is that govt and it's rules seem to be additive in nature and I don't always agree that they should be.
I can't stand overeaction based on one or very few incidents that then affect everyone else.
And yes, I hate the EPA but I believe in clean air and water so I'm willing to tolerate it to a point. If it was left up to the free market and the corporate world, we common folks would be living in a cesspool while the top dogs avoided looking and working in it. Don't believe me? History is prescident in this case.
Again, I STRONGLY encourage your (and other's) participation!
Steve
PS - Regarding the $200 church sponsored medical plan, how much of your cost is being underwritten by others taken from the congregation collection basket??? What is the difference between that and having the govt do the exact same thing across the board? At least you'd have another reasonably priced option from which to choose.
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Dear MLG,
Good food for thought.
Did you know the big ever expanding government post office is reducing staff this year? (Leno joked that they didn't know why but the layoff notices were being emailed by the end of the week.)
$200! WOW! Back when I was in the game - pre Medicare and paying for my health insurance by check I was paying $250 for an HMO. My wife was another $250. It was the largest single purchase per year we made. When she qualifies for Medicare her monthly premium will drop to about $120. She could stay with the private $250 program but I think she'll opt for the $120. Oh, same HMO.
Second, my $200 a month church sponsered medical plan
The whole family or per person? And then
First, I have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare. zip, zilch, nada.
How do you have $2400 a year “Second” and yet have none of the “First”?
I'm sure you give thanks for your special wonderful life. You live in a disappearing world that is simply not available to most US citizens. In my neighborhood; fire, police, education (majority) and many other services are delivered by well paid government employed professionals. I too respect and appreciate their service and their choice of career. But in most of the US (by population) these services are PAID FOR by tax dollars. Ah, the tyranny of the majority. ;)
Malpractice accounts for about 10% or $20 of your insurance premium. It is not the driving force of rising costs. The 30% management overhead may have more to do with the rising prices. Unhealthy people are the other driving force of rising healthcare costs. While I agree that some settlements are outrageous most are pretty reasonable. Did you know that the McDonalds coffee woman first just asked for her medical costs? That’s all she asked for in her second letter as well. How many strikes does an incompetent doctor get before she is sent packing or to jail or driven out of business because his mal practice insurance is just too too too costly?
Ever wonder why it’s wrong to depend on the government and smart to be dependent on “for profit” poly-national corporations? It’s a complicated world out here in the “real” Amerika. We need to band together if we’re going to succeed.
Casey
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...plain old mediocrity?
I know one thing for a fact, I've never become more involved in the political process other than voting every chance I had. I always thought I was doing my duty and that was good enough, this year and the next that's going to change.........
<snip>
I am SO tired of the whole govt workers=mediocrity line of thinking.
I for one am no doorknob and would welcome your experience, intelligence, business accumen, etc to help out.
But beware, you might just figure out first-hand that most of the people that you and others are so quick to criticize are actually fairly sharp and on the ball; and that there are legit reasons for things being done the way they are done.
Yes they are sharp in some ways. No argument with that. What I have a problem with is the way they use their sharpness.
Just for example -
My mailman - who shall not be named - was in here a couple days ago. Seems that with post office revenue falling they need to drum up more business, and they do the mail count in Feb. (which is what their salary is based on)
Bottom line is he proposed that we start sending our catalogs in small boxes instead of the usual envelopes, and then he would pay us the difference in postage until the mail count is over. It would be a winning situation for him because his salary is based on the mail count. Very nice man, very sharp. All nicely legal.
Need I say more?
govt run business=mediocrity
PS - Regarding the $200 church sponsored medical plan, how much of your cost is being underwritten by others taken from the congregation collection basket???
Actually.....there is no money taken from the congregation collection basket. I said "church sponsered" but more factual would be "church administered". monthly costs per member reflects monies paid out. My costs per month dropped from $250 to $200 this spring because monies coming in exceeded monies going out. Iit is in fact a self supporting system, paid for by the persons being covered, and has nothing to do with the collection basket.
What is the difference between that and having the govt do the exact same thing across the board? At least you'd have another reasonably priced option from which to choose.
um, not exactly. first of all, my tax money will be used to pay for anything and everything that wants to be covered. And if I would be wanting to opt out that looks like it will be highly impossible. And the healthcare bill will phase out what I have now, BTW
Need to run now, later
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Mk,
Thanks for the thoughts!
I disagree with your postman's methodology; please understand that not all govt employees operate in that manner. I would also submit that whether private or public sector, there are "ethically challenged" individuals in every bunch.
I think that it's interesting that the Post Office manages to make over a billion dollars a year in profit and it happens to be a govt run agency... So much for it being a poorly managed business! I do think they should just remain revenue neutral like they are supposed to, but that's my opinion and another topic.
The point is, they do a good job for relatively low cost compared to the rest of the world. And gee, they're govt run... hmmm....
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/uspsabout.htm
Regards,
Steve
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Wow. I didn't know post office folks were commissioned. (yes I know, but kinda). He should be selling Priority Mail to Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico because they just kick ass on shipping to the "Other" parts of Amerika. Perhaps an ad on Ebay. My policy is if they don’t ship USPS I don’t shop.
um, not exactly. first of all, my tax money will be used to pay for anything and everything that wants to be covered. And if I would be wanting to opt out that looks like it will be highly impossible. And the healthcare bill will phase out what I have now, BTW
I can opt out of Medicare each November. Now I think any time I want would be better but I can opt out.
What part phases out your church organized health care insurance program? Do you know how many people your insurance company requires for this group policy ?
Casey
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One thing might bear consideration. The 22% increase in cost of health care in one year:
Every politician is involved in a lie when they state the inflation rate. Oh, it was only 4.5% last year........
Inflation has been a steady 13% per year since Nixon was pres, with variations of course. Now it's much worse with a 60% drop in the value of the dollar in the last year.
Medical costs can not be hidden from this event. They reflect true inflation, not the BS inflation that says substituting hot dogs for salmon is a revenue neutral event. Or unemployment stats that drop unemployed people after a year.
When you need cancer care, a cheap a**ed substitution just does not cover it. You can switch from premium gas to regular in your car, buy hot dogs for dinner, heck even feed grandma cat food, but you really can't go cheap on health care.
The 900 pound gorilla in the room is the economy. It's not health care. May I say it again? IT'S THE ECONOMY STUPID (remember that Clinton campaign slogan?)
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I know there are some real doctors on here. What do they have to say?
I've been wanting to respond to some of the comments on this thread but just haven't had the time. Yesterday, I was on call and worked until 10:30 pm, then paid bills, etc. until 2 am. Today back at work. Now getting ready for a family trip to visit friends and relatives in Switzerland (leaving tomorrow).
What I really want to say will take a while to write. Also, I've been quite afraid it will be taken the wrong way. Please, no one interpret this as bragging or any such thing, because the background is helpful to see where I, and other doctors, are coming from with our opinions.
I'm a radiologist, so this is coming from that perspective, and most of my examples follow. If you don't know what that means, let me give you some background.
I read all the plain x-rays, CT scans, MRI's, ultrasounds, nuclear medicine, barium swallowing studies, barium enema, etc., as well as do CT or ultrasound guided biopsies, abscess/infection drainages, perform angiograms, and other kinds of image guided procedures. Though you don't see me physically taking the pictures, the x-ray technologists running the equipment come to me for questions, because I'm supposed to know how to run the equipment, too, and tell them how I want the pictures taken. The scope of my practice brings me in contact with all the other specialties, from pediatrics to geriatrics. I have to know quite a bit about most specialties as a general radiologist. Radiologists are sometimes referred to as the "doctor's doctor" because they come to the radiologist to discuss patients, while the patients don't have a lot of interaction with me. When you get a scan and go to your doctor or he/she calls you with the results, they are reading a report I sent them. I average about 60 hours of work per week, on call about every 4th night on average. My education involved 4 years of college, then 4 years of medical school. Then 1 year of surgery internship (basically the first year of surgery residency), then 4 years of radiology residency. I also had 1 year of advanced training after that, a fellowship in interventional radiology (like another year of residency). That's 14 years of training after high school before I could go to work. Of course some specialties have a shorter residency, like ER -- 3 years, family practice -- 3 years, and some are longer like some of the surgical subspecialties, cardiothoracic comes to mind at 7-8 years. Some specialties are highly sought after because of either higher pay or perceived or real lifestyle benefits. The highly sought after specialties are therefore very competitive. To get into medical school, you have to be near the top of your college class. To get into certain specialties, you have to be at the top of your med school class. Medical school is very expensive (it was $25-30k/year just for tuition when I was there btwn 1996-2000). In residency, because you are a real doctor now, they pay you, but not a lot. About $35-40k/year. Of course that was 5 years ago, those figures have risen for sure. Residency is like slave labor, 60-80 hours/week depending on the specialty. Then going home to study after work. The gov't has now limited the total amount of time a resident can work contiguously and over the course of a week (to 80). Great news for residents, but sometimes bad for continuity of care for patients.
True, most physicians go into medicine for altruistic reasons, not just money. We want to help people. But you can also see that after spending all that study, with no social life, many broken marriages, etc., it's not unreasonable for MD's to expect to get reimbursed at a fair, decent rate. What a decent rate is is another question! :) My dad is a surgeon, and he makes less every year but works just as hard. Now he makes less than when he started working in the late 1970's !!!! That's really how is it across the board. The days of a doctor automatically having an exorbitant mansion are gone. Look at our doctors parking lot at the hospital: mostly average cars, Toyotas, Hondas, P/U trucks, only a few BMW's or Mercedes. One internal medicine doc drives a beat up 3 cyl microcar with duct taped windows! One surgeon rides a little scooter. I mostly walk. Maybe it's just our area. Honestly, I can't complain because I get paid quite well as a radiologist, at the top of the chain so-to-speak. Then again I worked hard both in getting top grades and putting in hours to get here, because it was very competitive. How do you really expect anyone to go through the training, both book studies and hands-on training, to be a physician if there is no reward? Altruism is fine but there has to be incentive. While medicine used to attract the brightest minds, now it is losing them to other fields, like business. And it's not just because of money. Do you have any idea the amount of paper work in a day? Gov't bills to make less paperwork just make more!! Patients used to be grateful and polite. Now we frequently see folks who abuse their body all their life by obesity, tobacco use, alcohol, etc., want it fixed for free because it is their "right", but have plenty of money for the boat, new car, etc. Patients come in self-diagnosed by the internet (arrogant and sure of their diagnosis), telling you what test they want and what specialist they want to see, even though they could be far off on the diagnosis. You tell me how to attract the best students into medicine with an environment like this??? Now you understand why your doctor has an Indian accent! The government provides incentives for foreign medical graduates to take residencies in the USA and then work in underserved areas, with the expectation that they will eventually get a Green Card. And many of these foreign docs are quite good.
Now, we pay a company to do our billing and I don't know for sure exact dollar amounts of what things cost, but I have a general idea from talking with the billing people (good friends). Medicare pays just barely over the break even point for a primary care doc (family practice, internal med, pediatrics, etc.) per office visit to pay the office staff, the electricity, etc. Physicians in all specialties take big hits when we see Medicaid, Medi-Cal, Oregon Health Plan type patients. We have to pay to see them! What about the "no-pays", you may ask? It's no wonder we or the hospital bill the good insurance co's so much. You may think that would make incentive for MD's to see more patients, cramming you into a tighter "time slot" and spending less time with you. It's true to a point. But for the most part, doctors are just overbooked because that's how many patients want to be seen. People want to be seen *now*.
Some of the biggest issues causing spiraling health costs as I see them:
1. Defensive medicine, which needs TORT REFORM !!!!!!! But remember who the politicians are: lawyers. Not going to happen. Casey, your statement about malpractice insurance being only a small cause of the problem is not really true. About 20% of my income goes to malpractice IIRC, and it's much higher for some other specialties, up to 40%. Of course is not just doctors who have malpractice insurance. Hospitals, nursing homes, PT offices, etc. etc. It's not just the malpractice insurance, though, which raise costs. It's the whole pervasive practice of "defensive medicine", so we don't "miss something". That's not good medicine. It's looking for zebras in the forests of the pacific NW. I haven't been out of residency for a long time, but just in the past 3 years I've seen the number of imaging studies skyrocket. While we/I try to hold them back, the ER will say, "it's a rollover MVA (motor vehicle accident), new protocol says we have to get a CT of the head, cervical spine, chest, abdomen, and pelvis, because they may have lost consciousness or may not be accurate in their level of abdominal pain". Etc. Etc. That's a multi-thousand dollar workup for the remote possibility of injury. When I first moved here, our 100+ bed hospital had only 1-2 cross sectional imaging studies per night after 10 pm (i.e. CT scans) on average. Now we have had to resort to sending our scans to US trained radiologists in Europe to get preliminary reports so we can sleep a little. Of course, we pay out of pocket for this luxury, and not everything can be sent. In every specialty, doctors will admit to doing something because they might get sued if they didn't, even though the science is not there to back it up.
2. Too many tests, lab tests or imaging. This dovetails with #1 above. Patients come into offices demanding to have, say, an MRI for their back pain. The family practice doctor knows problem is not something serious, but gives into the patient's request. If he says no, the patient goes "doctor shopping". This is especially noticable with imaging requests from PA's and FNP's (physician assistants and nurse practitioners). They have some training but not enough pathophysiology or anatomy to really understand what is happening. They are great for colds, flus, sore throats, sprains, etc., but you won't find me or may family going to one for anything serious. That's one place where the gov't has it totally backwards: by trying to save money, encouraging more lower level practicioners to do more and shifting patients to them from MD's, they are actually causing waste because these guys order a lot of tests that aren't necessary. Of course, overutilization is happens from PA's and nurses all the way up to high subspecialized MD's. Then, there's the problem of ordering tests without even seeing the patient first: it's now protocol in the ER to be seen by a triage nurse or secretary who asks why you are there. Hand pain = automatic hand X-ray. Leg swelling = ultrasound for possible DVT (clot). Then wait 4 hours until the doc or NP can see you. Boom. See where I'm going with this?
3. It has been estimated that 50% of health care $$ are spent in the last 6 months of a person's life. In other countries, if grandma is spiraling ("down-the-drain") in the ICU, non-recoverable, you pull the plug. Particularly in those with socialized medicine. Here that's termed "playing God." We must keep them alive at all costs, down to the last minute. That's the mentality. There no "Let's celebrate the life well lived, and let them die in peace." Especially in cancer patients, we do absolutely everything possible, whether it is futile chemotherapy or radiation or life support. It's basically our mentality in the USA. As a Christian, this seems unnatural and more "playing God"/interfering with nature than letting someone go. Death is part of life. Of course, we all have our own beliefs and this thread isn't a religious thread.
4. Overutilization of emergency departments. There is a very high percentage of the population who uses the ER as their primary care doc, especially as people lose their health insurance. An ER visit costs at minimum about $700. Compare that to maybe $100 for the same problem when seen in the regular clinic. Who foots the $700 bill?
5. No cost control for pharmaceuticals. Drug co's can charge whatever they want. How many of you try to buy cheaper drugs from Canada?
6. No cost controls for durable medical equipment (i.e. motorized wheelchairs, O2 tanks, etc.). There's a reason why you see so many ads on TV for the motorized wheelchairs. The people selling them buy them from the manufacturers, then sock a huge bill to Medicare, which then pays quite happily.
7. No cost controls for all sorts of other medical equipment. That package of gauze I just opened to help clean your wound cost a few pennies to make, but the manufacturer can charge hundreds of times that, which the hospital or MD's office has to recoup somehow. Now imagine an IV line with bag. Just 2 simple examples.
8. No mandates for insurance company efficiency. Don't get me going on this !!
There's been a lot of talk about how great socialized medicine systems work in other countries, but there's a reason why people with money come to the US for their care. And you have to remember that where it works well, like Switzerland, it is still a combination of private and public payors, the popluation is 7 million instead of 250 million, the the gov't is not bloated beyond reason.
Once, I saw some numbers that the actual overall cost of the health care bill which is attributable to the physicians fees was only a couple percent. Don't know if that's true or not. But I do know that doctors wages have decreased for years while overall health care costs are skyrocketing. Hmmm. Now the gov't wants to take away more from reimbursements and forcing people to get insurance (without insurance reform) thinking it will help. I see doctors leaving medicine in droves in the future, but, hey, one of my partners thinks a single payor system is the panacea. As you see from above, creating a single payor system or making sure everyone is enrolled in a plan won't fix the deficiencies I mentioned.
Lastly, I did take a Hippocratic Oath when graduating medical school. It basically says I have an obligation to treat everyone in need, and to first do no harm.
Marcus
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Marcus A. Bryner, M.D.
Grants Pass, OR
P.S. Why would I put my full name out here if I didn't believe this? Sorry if I rambled too much. It's midnight, I still have to pack, and my little ones will be awake in a few hours..... Arrgh.
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Marcus;
Thanks for the coherent post. As a recent healthcare consumer (belly button hernia repair) bits and pieces of your letter show thru as something I could relate to.
As a person with technical training and license, other parts of your letter ring true.
Combine that with political trends and economic trends, and it makes more sense how we got here. We can use that to figure where it's going if we 'stay the course' or try an NHS or a private care provider scheme with single payer.
Scott
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Hi Marcus,
FIRST: My Lister brother, never use your full name on this site. It is monitored by google. Go there and search on “mbryner” and then “Marcus A. Bryner”. You may not be bothered but not everyone at TRRA may share your opinions.
I agree with Scott. Great credentials and I want to revise my opinion on malpractice insurance costs but remember that I was talking about our side of the fence and not yours. Isn’t it interesting that the insurance companies complain that the cost of consumer insurance is a function of malpractice? And yet you pay for the coverage too. I love double billing scams. You may notice that I haven’t blamed the income of doctors as a major force in raising insurance premiums. Costs are nice to know but the market determines the cost of insurance. This market is simply too closely managed.
Is the doctor’s side of the insurance premium rated as a matter of how many suites or settlements have occurred? As a person that regards the quitting of tobacco addiction 40 years ago as one of the top five decisions of my life and haven’t tasted a piece of pie in 14 months – 12 days do wish our side premiums were health loaded. I watched my mother die for four years. I look at her photos of the last year and wonder why we worked so hard to keep this once extraordinary person alive to wallow in a warm death.
So my burning question is: What are these people with something like 30 years of education going to do when they leave medicine besides pharmaceutical sales? I guess my critique of the new doctor working as a lackey on CSI may also need revising.
Thanks for your side of the story.
LowGear
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The entire economic system is dead, broken beyond repair! And the people most responsible for breaking it got big bonuses for doing it! I think Shipchief is right but the problems are way larger than just his points. I can't help wondering if the powers that be know that many more large corporations are going to lay off many more people or just won't be able (or won't want to) pay for health coverage. It's just not a good thing to have a majority of the workforce not have access to health care and there is no reason to put up with such a thing when it would be simple to re-arrange the system to cover everybody. There are a lot of smart people in the USA who could design an efficient, fair and cost effictive single payer system that would cover everybody. The only reason not to have a system like this is because the people that would lose out have bought off the politicians that could make it happen. Just watch the TV coverage and it's obvious who owns whom! I'm still willing to give Obama the benifit of the doubt that he is trying to do the right thing for the USA even though I didn't vote for him. I try to look at any situation from as many different viewpoints as possible and then use plain common sense to form my personal opinions. Right at this point in history I'm afraid that the USA and the western world is right at the start of a very large train wreck and when it's over we might not recognize what's left! I really hope I'm wrong about this but I don't see any of the problems that I think need to be addressed even being talked about! The banks got enough of a bailout to stall off the big collapse for awhile and for the big campaign donors to pocket some taxpayer cash. But going forward from here the working class could really suffer; it might be a good time for us to all learn help each other and watch out for our neighbors. At least if the USA had a well run universal health care plan it would help the working class and allow US companies to be more competitive on world markets. It would also take a big burden off small businesses . The positive aspects of a well thought out single payer system look to far outweigh the drawbacks and something needs to be done; the present system is outdated and has failed too many people for too long. Leland
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I'm reading a book call Hitler's Nemesis.
It's a statistical and policy book about the German - Russian front during WWII
The point is, that the Russians feilded and equipt 700 divisions after a long period of decline, what with the October revolution, a civil war, famine, losing WWI, etc. They were at the bottom of a deep well when WWII hit them hard and they lost 40% of their population and the best real estate to the Germans.
They turned it around. But it took everything to do it. Conscription for the army took all 18 yr olds and men up to 55. Women and children worked in factories, women served in combat and communications as well a support service. Wounded returned to their units unless very seriously wounded, then they became trainers. There was a 'man shortage'. All national effort was expended on survival.
We have a spending problem. That's pretty small potatoes compared. The question is national will. Some believe that can't be done with a capitalist 'selfish' system. Others believe it can't be done without free market capitalism's discipline. Corruption is still corruption, no matter what economic system is used.
More effort needs to be spent on keeping the dollar in America. I think the Federal Reserve is the root of the problem, congress is supposed to mint money and control monetary policy, not some consortium of private bankers who skim off the cream. Deficit spending for imported oil, cars, TV's, shoes etc is part of the problem.
Retireing at 65 and living to 90 was not expected. That's a long time for a free ride, even tho- I'm aiming for it too.
Lots of things need to be adjusted. It's been a long period since WWII and everyone has been feathering their own nest without regard the the health of the whole system.
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Thats about the best post I think I have read in this thread yet.
I have issues myself I would like to retire at 65 and untill recently that was not an option but a fact . Now I see myself working into my 70s possibly....
But who is going to hire me?
Why would you hire a 70 year old man realisticly I do physical labour and I am apt to drop dead on you.......
Here is my alternative take:
We all work a 40 hour week because of Job sharing int he 1930s.
I would like to see it done again maybe 30 hour week. Its not like we are not productive enough to to make it cost effective. It might mean some reduction in take home pay but with more poeple working the ecconomy would over all be more productive.
An old man who is not broken down and worn out at 70 could probably continue to do some part time work with a little help from somne kind of pension.
The rate I am going however know I will not be in any kind of shape to compete with a kid 40 years younger than me pulling cable and when the dust settles after this strike I won't have a pension anymore....
Truth is I have already seen the old men staying on after 65 and it scares me because I don't want to be suing a long pair of plyers to pull on my boots because my back doesn't bend anymore. I would like to die in my sleep between some sheets at home instead of face down of a heart attack on a dusty concreat slab in some forsaken place ( and I have seen that too ).
There is going to be push back from Employers they already are trying to get out of pension buisness on most fronts....
But think about it in your final years your going to loose your marbles as well as control of your bladder. Its not realistic to think your going to be a productive worker after 70 and your going to have health issues our goverment and buisness leaders know this and they want no part in caring for us and that realy scares the crap out of me, Under the current system its better I work my balls off and wear out dying as soon as possible after my productive years
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Marcus , thankyou for taking the time to share that enlightening information with us , much appreciated.
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I was talking to a PA and things are pretty messed up right now with the insurance companies making crazy decisions about what they will and will not pay for. Things like: got pneumonia at the hospital - not covered, it must have been a hospital mistake.
Rationing at some level is fine (and occurs everywhere in life) - if you want some unusual, low success rate treatment, there will always be places to get it if you pay for it or have supplemental insurance.
Dr. Bryner's post was very good although it didn't include the problem of the AMA restricting the number of doctors and other wage inflating tactics.
I certainly hope we aren't at the point where people have hide their thoughts behind pseudonyms. If something is wrong, stand up for what is right and put your name behind it.
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Dear jzeeff,
You don't need to hope any more.
I certainly hope we aren't at the point where people have hide their thoughts behind pseudonyms.
http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm You might be very disappointed by how many people will try to ruin you because they don't like your opinion on one thing or another. I was "warned" (in the warmest of ways) by a client of my business to be aware that everything on this site was easily available on google by searching unique information about you or your business. That is why I mentioned to Marcus that discretion might be the better part of valor.
And, of course, I agree with compig.
Cheers, Casey LowGear
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Mk,
Thanks for the thoughts!
I disagree with your postman's methodology; please understand that not all govt employees operate in that manner. I would also submit that whether private or public sector, there are "ethically challenged" individuals in every bunch.
I think that it's interesting that the Post Office manages to make over a billion dollars a year in profit and it happens to be a govt run agency... So much for it being a poorly managed business! I do think they should just remain revenue neutral like they are supposed to, but that's my opinion and another topic.
The point is, they do a good job for relatively low cost compared to the rest of the world. And gee, they're govt run... hmmm....
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/consumerawareness/a/uspsabout.htm
Regards,
Steve
Quite true, not all govt employees operate in that manner. But the point I am making was that this postmaster is quite sharp, will do anything for us, and is a very nice guy. Obviously its not the man that's the problem, it's the system!! And yes, there are ethically challenged individuals in every organization, very true. But ultimately, accountability is very different at a lot of govt run organizations. Not all of them, but a lot of them.
You might want to recheck the claims on that page how the post office makes over a billion a year profit. Did you notice that number was averaged out? And it doesn't tell you over how many years it's averaged out? It also doesn't say that post office business has been dropping like mad (which it has) It also states that the post office is not subsidized, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this
In my opinion the fact (if it is a fact) that it needs public money to stay afloat trumps any "profit" it might make
http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston21.html
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/23182/FTC_Report_US_Postal_Service_Needs_More_Freedom_and_Less_Protection.html
this is by far the most damning report, by a govt agency itself
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09937sp.pdf
ran out of time, will address LG's post later
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Dear MLG,
Good food for thought.
Did you know the big ever expanding government post office is reducing staff this year? (Leno joked that they didn't know why but the layoff notices were being emailed by the end of the week.)
$200! WOW! Back when I was in the game - pre Medicare and paying for my health insurance by check I was paying $250 for an HMO. My wife was another $250. It was the largest single purchase per year we made. When she qualifies for Medicare her monthly premium will drop to about $120. She could stay with the private $250 program but I think she'll opt for the $120. Oh, same HMO.
Second, my $200 a month church sponsered medical plan
The whole family or per person? And then
The entire family. Any children get thrown in for free. Oh yes, it's run practically by volunteers, BTW. Kinda removes the "big greedy profit driven insurance company" from the equation.
First, I have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare. zip, zilch, nada.
How do you have $2400 a year “Second” and yet have none of the “First”?
I view the second as being more a "pooling of resources so we can survive" created by and run by its members.
No, the government does not constitute a pooling of resources
I'm sure you give thanks for your special wonderful life. You live in a disappearing world that is simply not available to most US citizens. In my neighborhood; fire, police, education (majority) and many other services are delivered by well paid government employed professionals. I too respect and appreciate their service and their choice of career. But in most of the US (by population) these services are PAID FOR by tax dollars. Ah, the tyranny of the majority. ;)
<snip>
Ever wonder why it’s wrong to depend on the government and smart to be dependent on “for profit” poly-national corporations? It’s a complicated world out here in the “real” Amerika. We need to band together if we’re going to succeed.
Casey
If the "special wonderful life" is disappearing, why is that? Why isn't that raising red flags and alarm bells? I referenced it before, Lowgear, but have you ever explored the mentality of a welfare community? Or explored the reasons why they got there?
For me the bottom line is,
why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,
and even more importantly,
why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?
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Dear mkdutchman,
If the "special wonderful life" is disappearing, why is that?
My guess is increasing density of population.
big greedy profit driven insurance company
You left out “corporate owner”? Corporation – The pooling of resources to do bigger and get higher returns on investment stuff without personal liability nor responsibility. Is there a direct inverse correlation between corporate influence and the reduction of “special wonderful life”?
why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,
and even more importantly,
why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?
This could be used as a definition for a democratic and or republic style of government. Interdependence for the benefit of its members.
I'd still like to live in Marcus Land. I like living in a world where I don’t owe much of anything to anyone but the sense of community has a definite magnetism about it.
DIGRESSION:
I’ve redone my Medicare math. This government conspiracy is only saving me about $130 a month. These commies have pushed personal responsibility on me by raising my co pays. If I want the same co pays and prescription coverage my savings would drop to about $60 a month. But I have faith in my good health and life style consequences. I simply prefer a system than profits more by my good health than by my illness. I guess I have too much respect for the power of profit.
Casey
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For me the bottom line is,
why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,
and even more importantly,
why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?
Amen to that.
Casey, the gov't knows so much about me already that it doesn't matter what I write anywhere. There are all kinds of ways besides Google to "observe" anyone. They have each and every one of my fingerprints multiple times over. I have to report to multiple state and fed agencies if I move (because of medical licenses). If I really feared what anyone was thinking I wouldn't write it. I became a Libertarian a while back. I'm not an anarchist, but I did leave the Republican party a long time ago. I run Linux/Unix/Mac because of viruses and greater OS stability, and I hide my e-mail because of spam.
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Hi mbryner,
I'm not too concerned about the big bad government either. They have enough nasty unhappy people to chase after. I'm concerned about blurbs left on professional boards and ears by “concerned” citizens. I’ve been smoked a couple of times for my big mouth, learned to be a little careful and was only passing my unfortunate education on to be sure you and our fellow Listeroids understood from where and to whom we speak even on this forum.
LowGear
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OK. Fair enough. Thank you. :)
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Hello all I couldn't resist... shedding some light here. There is a myth out there that docs are all making big bucks and I thought I should set you straight. "I know this guy" who is a doctor, a general surgeon in a semi-rural area. He Bills out about 1 million dollars of work each year and has done so for about 21 years now. He worked hard as a youth when many of his friends were out drinking and carousing, he believed the "work hard and study and you'll get ahead" story that was taught at that time and was generally true. He finished four years of college and four years of med school both of which were fairly difficult. He then went through five more years of a truly grueling experience known as surgical residency where one actually Learns how to do surgery. Surgical residents hang up their lives on a coathanger at the beginning and when they return to try it on after five years it doesn't fit anymore. The experience changes them, most of these changes are for the better but some are less welcome. Rebirth by fire and such as that. My point is that they sacrifice a lot . They dont really start earning until their early thirties and most are heavily in debt when the get out to practice, often to the tune of $120,000 - $150,000 for their education. Then comes mortgage, kids schools, office expenses, malpractice insurance and all the rest. Here's the interesting part.... nobody in medicine gets paid what they bill, (Except perhaps the plastic surgeons since much is not covered by insurance) All of their Fees are determined by someone else, usually the insurance company with medicare and medicaid as a basic guideline. Medicare will pay this doc i know about 30- 35 cents on the dollar billed and medicaid last time he was brave enough to look paid him 16 cents on the dollar billed. Now remember the fee is already set so he can inflate his bill all he wants but still only gets the paltry predetermined sum. No.... not the $50,000 that the Kenyan thinks is paid for an amputation, try about $450-$650 for said operation. And that includes all of the pre care and aftercare that can go on for weeks. It's a bundled payment all included. Last time I checked you could hardly get a brake job on your S.U.V. or a new set of tires for said vehicle for that amount. SOoo Old Obee was either seriously uninformed (scary) or intentionally disingenuous (also scary) you choose. So .... Doc bills out a Million bucks, He Collects maybe $350,000 then through various Taxes....Income federal... income State.... Sales Tax... Property tax, etc etc etc all in alll fully 50% of what this guy earns disappears before he ever sees it, perhaps more. ( I heard Tax Freedom Day was August 23 this year!!!) Oh and dont forget Malpractice insurance! yes it is tax deductible as are office expenses but the bottom line is This guy can hardly stay in business. And that 's NOW wait till the Fed's take full controll.... After all that's what it's all about ...Control.... isn't it? The Dirty secret about the demonization of the insurance industry is that without them there would be no healthcare. (By the way ... a Very high risk, high stress business it is) You see... because Medicare and Medicaid drastically underpay hospitals, the hospital has to Overbill the well insured patient to stay in business. This is called Cost Shifting and is standard practice. (this is why a cotton ball costs $6 on your hospital bill.) Now there will be no affordible private insurance after a while since none can compete with the cost (free) ... (except to the taxpayer) public option. Yes Oprah and Brad and the Obamas and the congress and the other beautiful people will still be able to purchase expensive policies but they will no longer be "Cadillac" plans but "Ferrari" plans and most of us won't be able to afford it. Further paycuts in Docs fees are planned so how long before all the good ones quit or retire and "Joe the meat guy" is the one taking out your appendix, which, by the way, burst because you had to wait so long. I could go on but I won't.
Your Grandma had it right... "You get what you pay for"
Soviet workers had it right also..."They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
Will American Doctors be next?.... Something like "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to give a crap"!?
Altruism only goes so far..... will we never learn?
All the Best
JP
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Thanks Johnny, I agree, & I see a time when there will only be "government doctors" imagine that. The one thing that would help is tort reform but because the current administration & the demacratic party are bank rolled by the lawyers (that most of them happen to be) it will never happen in the current administration.
Scott R.
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Johny my family doctor is named " Ed ", He's also a general surgeon....
I call with a sick boy and we are in to see him the next day....
He drives a Volvo....
I see him in his Volvo and wave he flips me the bird and passes me ( or sometime I do it first just for a laugh )
Is he paid enough?
I sometimes doubt it, but he is a Canadian Doctor in a Northern City and he wants to be here doing what he does. I suspect most doctors are like that American or Canadian. If you want to be rich become NY banker and steal peoples money its far easier. Do people become doctors in order to not heal people think about it?
If you ask Ed about socialized medicine I suspect he would tell you something like he's OK with it...
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I hear on the news Sarah Palin told a canadian "22 minutes" researcher that the Canadian government should scrap government sponsored health care and the the for-profit private corporations handle all health care. What a hypocrite!
I find it sadly amusing that the so-called christian right movement in the US ascribes to the tenents of christianity, except when it comes to caring for the sick and the poor and the meek who shall inherit the earth. Oh, wait a minute, isn't that straight out of the teachings of that guy, what's his name, Jesus?
Stan
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She was talking to Mary Walsh... not a researcher, and by the looks of Mary's patented gotch interview styles the Americans where not impressed, but Ms Palin was playing along.. Come on Stan quoting this hour as 22 minutes? Next you will be saying the East Angllan College has a great reputation in Climate change :D
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Johny my family doctor is named " Ed ", He's also a general surgeon....
I call with a sick boy and we are in to see him the next day....
He drives a Volvo....
I see him in his Volvo and wave he flips me the bird and passes me ( or sometime I do it first just for a laugh )
Is he paid enough?
I sometimes doubt it, but he is a Canadian Doctor in a Northern City and he wants to be here doing what he does. I suspect most doctors are like that American or Canadian. If you want to be rich become NY banker and steal peoples money its far easier. Do people become doctors in order to not heal people think about it?
If you ask Ed about socialized medicine I suspect he would tell you something like he's OK with it...
Doug, Thanks for taking the time to read my rant....Your response is that which I hear a lot....and I don't entirely disagree with it. No-one goes into medicine or surgery "to get rich", I would argue however that given the level of preparation involved and the stress/risk level (especially in today's cynical environment) that it is not asking too much to make enough to keep the doors open and have something left for Mama and the kids. What could be better than work that helps people, is socially acceptable, and in which every day is challenging and interesting? Add an adequate take-home salary and you have the Perfect "Job". This is how it used to be..... not any more. For the past 20 years re-imbursements have ratcheted down 2-3% per year.... there is no slack and not much left after uncle gets his cut. Your Buddy the Doc may be happy or unhappy but as a professional he certainly wouldn't let his patient see it. We are not talking "rich" or "not rich" here anymore... we are talking "in business" or "not in business". And one must ask oneself why has there been an ongoing attack on Private practitioners? Well I'd wager if you get to the bottom of it, our old friends "Money and Control" are once again smiling at us. The Feds dont want to destroy Doctors ... just break the back of private practitioners, and bring them all under their control. Guidelines and cookbook medicine all as orchestrated by the Health commitee. (Why... Cost control) Look at the furor over Mammograms lately. Obviously one more cost control nail in the coffin.
I find it amusing that For my friend the doc ... They pay him 1/3 of what he bills then on april 15 they take half of it back and turn around and use it to underpay him, or give it to someone else.
He told me about a Medicaid patient who drove into the E.R. lot in a Cadillac Escilade! He parked next to it in his beat up old Subaru when he came in !! Doug your Doc friend is a valuable asset hold onto him. I'd wager he entered medicine long before all of this started if not then he must be a real Priest. You will see fewer and fewer of these people as time goes on. Heck there are already shortages of Docs all over. Compassion is a fine thing but I'd take a smart thanks but less compassionate physician over a dumb one with a bleeding heart anyday. And I REALLY don't want to have a disgruntled guy with a knife standing over me as I am put to sleep!
Anyway thanks again for the input. Have a nice Day all.
" From each according to his abilities, to each according to his need" Ha.
JP
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Well last thing I saw before my synous surgery ( done by another doctor ) was Ed standing outside the opperating theater making sick faces and gestures. And my Nurse was the security and first aid girl from the mine where I worked ( she moonlights as a security gaurd ). Her last comments were hey this guy is here for a Boob job right, don't worry Dougy I'll make sure your good and stacked when you wake up
Humor is something there is a lot of here at least people in the medical field up here get frustrated by the budget limitaion and waiting and short staff.
Medicine is rationed in Canada I had to wait months to get my synouses drilled because other people needed their tickers worked on or cancer cut out. But its fair OHIP will not stop spending to try and save your life once the Machinery is rolling and the need is identified as critical, but your going to wait for plastic hip joints ect.
If I told you you had to give lobster and champane, you might be restricted in what gourmet foods you could buy and how much but everyone in america would get cheap nutrisious food and no one would be hungry again would you think thats fair? Probably not....
If all you ever knew was everyone in America was eating a healthy diet and there was no hunger and I sugested you change that so the well off could eat better at the expense of the poor would you except that? I guess it depends on your personal feelings about what is fair and what is not. Sugesting to a Canadian to give up socialized health care with all its flaws so some get better care and some will die or go broke is a lot like that.
The question you people need to ask yourself. Is it reasonable to give up fast effective expensive health care that some people can't afford to cover everyone with a level of rationed care that protects everyone from unreasonable debts and loss of life.
The other question is can you aford to continue to spend as much as you do for an imperfect system that costs on a national level significantly more than than we pay here?
And no I didn't wake up with boobs and my synouses are good now.
My uncle had his lung cancer cured.
My son has his adnoids out no issues ( but like me had to wait ).
Some fell through the cracks here too. My Chum Glem was sent home to die because they thought his cancer was too far gone.He had a PET scan instead of an MRI that missed the true nature of his cancer . He paid for an MRI in the USA and the US doctors said there was a still a chance. He had the surgery in Canada after showing the doctors the results of these tests and he is alive today although there is a very good chance he will have it return. Rationing has a dark side sometimes things are missed in an effort to save money. But over all its something I can afford
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The real problem with all this is that we have 300 million American citizens. By the Presidents accounting we have 47 million with out health care insurance in this country. I say health care insurance because if there is some thing really wrong with you & you go to the hospital they, by law, have to treat you. By most accounts we have 20 million illegal aliens living here that, no matter what Obama says, will be included in this legislation because the bills before congress have already stipulated that they can't check your immigration status. And by the presidents own admittion 18 million will still not be covered. SOOOO 273 million Americans who have health care, like their health care are perfectly happy with their health care have to have what they like & are happy with taken over & destroyed by the government for 9 million Americans??
Seems like the right & prudent thing to do would be to expand the medicare system to handle them. that would allow those that have what they like to keep it & those without could be covered for a lot less that a trillion dollars. yea right!! a trillion is a joke, every government program in existence costs at least 9 times what it was expected to.
I sure wish I could find the clip of Robert B. Reich saying what they really want to do. basically it was: if you are old or have something really wrong with you, forget it, were not going to waste time, effort & money on you.
But the jerk off from South Carolina says that the republicans want you to die if you are old
Wake up people, this IS about every body getting the same care: they want everyone to get the cheapest low budget half assed care possible.
Scott R.
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Basicly thats what we have in Canada the cheapest possible health care that you can get by on. Its costs us nationaly about 2/3 what you pay per person and everyone is covered. I think we could possibly get riod of all the delays and waste and aproach what an American considers good private sector health care and still cover everyone without spending more than Americans pay.
Trouble is who wants to pay more taxes?
In Ontario if you can't prove you a Canadian with an OHIP card you don't get health care ( unless you are dying ). I don't think its reasonable to get free healthcare if you don't live there and pay taxes. I also disagree with the American concept of born here and your American. It snot like that here if a Pregnant mexican mom sneaks into Canada and has a baby they both get deported ( and a bill for delivering the baby ) .
If your Canadian and have a child in the USA (I happens all the time ) your child is American and can aply for and keep Canadian citizen ship when you get home. That's nuts isn't there enough leagal Canadians in the USA already without that loop hole lol ( ducking cause my Dad and his green card are probably offended by that )?