Lister Engine Forum
Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: DRDEATH on July 16, 2009, 08:30:21 AM
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I am new here so if I have chimed in where I should have not please excuse me. I am about to recieve my first engine. It is A 24/2 which I bought with a 15 K ST head. I am looking for advice on what to expect and also what to look for. I think this engine has only been run a few short hours. It was purchased to replace a generator this person lost during Katrina. He then became unable to crank start it and had to sell it. I hope I have not made a mistake in getting such a large engine the first time. I would love to someday tell the electricty co good by. I would appericate any and all advice from anyone. Please if I have made a mistake getting a bigger engine than I should have atleast be kind telling me. PS I love this forum. I read it while I am at work just to pass the time. I read it at home because I hate TV. Thanks
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First, how many minutes were there in those 'short' hours?
Any diesel engine is better operated at a good load. You may not want the fuel bills for operating at around 10kW. We have no idea of the load you might want to operate at.
Most down-size usage and balance hours-run with less storage capacity (batteries) if off-grid. They might often only use a generator when other renewables are a bit on short supply. Some might have a SOM (start-o-matic).
So, without any info it is difficult to know either way whether you have made a suitable purchase.
You will have seen the comments on forum about the cam shaft problems associated with the twins, I presume?
First thing to do will be to check inside the engine for casting sand.
Regards, RAB
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Welcome DrDeath,
Your chiming is perfect! Oh, BTW, pleasant name, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy! ;D
I see from your profile that you've been a member for about a month, so I'd imagine you've got some idea of what your getting into. A good recent topic for you to review is "Breaking in a new Engine"; link below.
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=919.0
I'm curious, did the previous owner give you any background info on what he had done to prep the engine and gen head before putting them into service? If you have no idea, As RAB suggests, check inside for casting sand.
I'd also suggest that you pop your connecting rod caps and inspect your shell bearings. Look for wear that is not uniform, big obvious scratches, not good. If your not sure, show them to a mechanic friend for advice.
Check to see if there is evidence of someone cleaned the paint off of the working connections on your governor linkage, the tappets, push rods and rocker arms.
Good Luck and keep reading, tons of info here to be had.
Regards,
Murph'
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Welcome Dr.
12KW of electrical power is a lot. Unless you have large cooling demands, the engine will probably be under-used. Diesels don't like this. It is usually best to calculate the demand, then size the genset to the demand so that the engine is loaded to at least 75% of it's capacity, or in this case 9KW. An engine not loaded to this extent is not very efficient and can even run into wear and maintenance issues. Give us some more info. What is your ultimate goal?
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So here is what I have. We have a 100 amp service into our home and I was told that was the bare minium. They suggested 200. I have AC, ele water heater, and ele dryer. I also have children that dont know the light switch works both ways. I am also building a shop with an ele welder and then all of the other electrical that everyone has. Now all of this is not always on I hope. As for the engine all I know at this time is that it is a Power Line unit down in the gulf coast and I have been told it has only 1 or 2 hours on it. The gentleman is no longer able to crank it so he decided to sell it. I have been reading quite a bit on these engines and I hope that I have not bit off more than I can chew getting such a large one at first. I am not stupid but I am no ways intelegent when it come to engines and especially alternators. I depnd on others for thier expertise. I am picking up this unit Aug 13 since this was the soonest I was able to get some time off work. My education back ground is a bachelors in nursing so I can save a life and I hope I can save an engine. I have always been pretty self sufficent and I have access to all of the used cooking oil I need free from fast food stores. I am also going to be putting up a small to medium size green house this fall and I have used motor oil if I want to help heat. Someday my goal is to tell the utility company SEE YA. Not before I know I can do without. In a hundren mile radius of Dodge City where I live we have for the last 2 years have had towns without electricity for up to 6 weeks. I reminded my wife about this when I told her I was investing in this. A friend of mine told me I should up grade the alternator to a 20 K because the 15 would not keep up. I did purchase one and a PTO conversion kit and plan to put the 15 on my garden tractor for portable electricty when I might need it and for the neigbors if needed. I do have plans to sometime soon to get a smaller engine which I can take apart and play with it and see if I can make it run again. I would like to put it on a pump jack when I build one since there seem to be none of those around this part of the country to water my garden. So that is just about it for now. I have ranted on enough for now. All advice will be much appericated. Mike :)
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We told the power co "See Ya" and get by just fine with a 6/1 and 3.125 kw of output.
In order to run that generator hard enough you will need turn on most the big appliances in the house at the same time. Or get a very large battery bank and charge into that while carrying the house loads. Or back feed into the grid. If you really to want to go off grid you will need to replace most of those appliances with gas ones, so in that case the 24/2 will be too big. Or invest in the very large battery bank.
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I don't see going offgrid, being very practical, without more than one power source. First off, there is the "all the eggs in one basket" situation. Look how well your house functions when the grid goes down now... Second there is the efficiency perspective. A 12KW generator is not very efficient at 2KW of average load. IMO, there are a few ways to do this effectively. YOu could have an assortment of varying sized generators. A small one for average loading, a larger one for mid size loads, such as when you need A/C, and a large one for laundry day. This would allow you some flexibility and redundancy if something should fail. But of course, someone needs to maintain and control these. Another, perhaps better way IMO, is a hybrid power plant. You use a battery bank and inverter to meet your average loads. You have a small to midsized generator that runs occasionally at peak efficiency to recharge these batteries. This generator also acts as a backup to the inverter or battery system for when it goes down. You have a second larger genset to meet peak demands such as laundry day, and as yet another backup. With some planning, and proper sizing, it might be possible to peak the battery bank on laundry day with one generator.
This type system has a few distinct advantages, not the least of which being you don't have to run a generator at night very often, but the lights will still come on when you flick the switch. This system could also keep the reefer/freezer powered 24/7, even when you are away. It would also allow you to fairly easilly incorporate solar to maintain the charge and save on fuel costs. Hot water will always be a problem if purely electric, so perhaps that and the cooking stove will need to go to gas/propane. Any offgrid system that encorporates a generator should have some provision for waste heat recovery. You are burning the fuel, better that the heat from the engine go into the hot water tank, or to heat the house, than out to the atmosphere thru a radiator.
Any excursion offgrid is surely going to incorporate some lifestyle changes, some carefull planning for meeting the needs of that new lifestyle, and some outlay of infrastructure to keep your family in a lifestyle near to that which they have become accostomed.
I wish you luck .
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OK so after reading so far I had to get off a think about what I have done so far. I havent decided which would be worse. Having vomiting and diarrhea for a week of stepping out in front of a semi and living just to find out that both arms and both legs were gone. I believe I would rather have either one of thise situations then tell my wife I might have gone a little over board. The very first words out of her mouth will be " I TOLD YOU SO". So I guess I am going to have to beg for help to somehow figure out how what I already have is going to work and work as well as can be expected. I thought of something and I am curious if this might change things. My engine is rated at 1000 rps I believe. If diesels are suppose to run under a load then what would be wrong in slowing down my RPM's then changing my generator pulley to keep the 1800 RPS. This would make the diesel work under a load situation. It might even increase my engine life expectancy running a slower speed. I would guess it would also decrease fuel consumption. Battery packs are not a solution I could do. Tyrning the grid into a storage supply sort of say is probably not a solution either. It would have to take some pretty expensive equipement to pump trons into the system and still be on the system. Someone out there can shirly figure out how I can make this work. I reall hate to admitt just how stupid I feel and will feel if my wife finds out it aint going to work like I promiced. HELP Thanks for those who have shared and especially for thos who will come to my rescue. I want to be excited again about my brand new oversized toy.
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what would be wrong in slowing down my RPM's
Nothing at all wrong with that. The engine would, as you say, be longer lived, better on fuel (up to a point), and it would be much less obtrusive. Sounds like you may have to live with the generator being grossly oversized (you don't say whether the head is kVA or kW) - it would be plenty big enough for the engine at 15kW.
If you expect it to be used for standby power, it will be OK.
Regards, RAB
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DR,
You will be very happy with that engine once you work all th bugs out of your plan.
While perhaps you may not ultimately save as much fuel as a smaller engine, you will have the advantage of owning a unit that will power your house as if you were on the grid...
That will make the wife happier.
Also, you will find less flicker with the twin than with a smaller engine.
Lastly, should you need to run any heavy loads, you will have the ability to do so.
I would suggest you figure out a way to get the engine to 200 degrees and hold it there. I believe you will find far fewer issues with crud buildup and slobber...
Be excited, I know I would be!!!!!
Please don't let the naysayers burst your bubble. Not everyone is interested in making the lifestyle adjustments required to live on 3 kw.
Work through each issue and show them that it will work just fine running lighter loads...
And most of all, have fun because that's what this is ultimately supposed to be about.
And NEVER EVER allow anyone to say "I told you so..."
If/when they try to say that to you, simply reply that you bought it because you liked it.
Just my $.02,
Steve
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Lowering the RPM does sound like a good way to go, I guess I didn't think of that since I have a 650 RPM machine. I'd agree keep the temp up and find a way to get good response out of the governor and you should be in good shape.
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I didn't think of that since I have a 650 RPM machine.
There are those that run less than 450 RPM, with a 650 rated engine, with no apparent problems. That is over 30% reduction. The 650 RPM Listers were rated down to 500 RPM by the manufacturer.
Governor weights could be changed, I am sure, for better slow speed regulation if necessary.
DD,
As an extra: Lower speeds may cause annoying 'flicker' on the output (higher speed engines tend to have smaller flywheels) so an avr may be required.
Still lots you can change to fit your requirements. We just need to know what they are in order to give the appropriate responses.
Regards, RAB
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Well I have had time to calm down and buy my wife flowers and told her it was just because I LOVE HER. GOOD IDEA. My requirements for my house now are AC (central), ele water heater and electric dryer. Now with that said I also purchased a small farm tractor which has very little acessories. My paln is to build several items for it. I probably wont be working on these in time of power failure but it would take some of the load if I needed it. I am also going to put up a mid size green house. 12 x 40. I was concerned about what to do on cloudy days and short days from the limited sunlight. It sounds like I would be able to light it up like summer. The rest of the power usage is from normal lights left on when they could be shut off. I have plenty access to all of the used veg oil I would like at this time. My plan is to start getting it and next summer during the day when the ele comp wants to double its rates is turn off my service and go on generator and see how it works every day. Probably 10 to 12 hours. I know I will still be building attachtements for my tractor so I will be using welder during that time. Mike PS I did order a CD and book from utterpower, Bob I believe. Someone spoke of running the engine a certian temperature. What is the best way to monitor this? i hope the book will explain all of the questions I might have in language I will understand. Like I said earlier I can save a life most of the time without a problem. Engines are a little harder. I have never played with a governor in all of my past growing up on a farm. I have OH numerous tractore with my dad.
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Hi
I picked up a couple of pipe thermometers online from RS Components one clamps on the metal inlet on the cooling drum and
thether gauge goes on the metal outlet pipe - that way I can make sure thermosyphon is working and also the peak temperatures
coming out of the engine - obviously if it is over 200F you have a problem with the thermostat. The industrial pipe thermoteters are powered by a bimetal strip so do not involve any electrical power connection. The gauges simply attach to the pipe by way of a spring to hold the pick up in contact with a metal pipe or similar.
It is always easy to panic now you are receiving so much advice from others after the event. - but I think you have to filter messages that cause the level of anxiety to rise. Understand we problably do not really know what your longer term requirments are.
Remain positive take onboard constructive advice and learn from experiences of others - you have bought the unit - but hang in there maybe it can power a really good machine shop - turn a threat into an opportunity - especialy in the colder months.
Look for solutions instead of problems - above all have fun - Happy Listeroiding!!!
Stephen Hutson
Gizmos T/As OzListeroids
AUSTRALIA
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I have recieved some very good information. I suppose it would have been better to ask before jumping. The problem is I would have not known what to ask. I still have a generator shed to make and it will also double as a tornado shelter. You probably dont have those down under. LOL I calmed down after most of the problems that were thrown at me and figured out how I could keep some of it from my wife if I have to. I work in a hospital in the ER and one night I took care of a young female quite good looking and she said I was a good bloke. She tried to get me to come home with her and be her private nurse. TEMPTING She gave me a coin and I have had it for almost 10 years. Must be good luck. Again thanks for the words of encouragment. Mike :)
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obviously if it is over 200F you have a problem with the thermostat
Let's be careful here. We have an inexperienced operator. I would not worry if the coolant exiting was less than 30C above the t-stat rating.
I might investigate why, if it was a new phenomenon, but with temperature tolerances of components, it may be close enough - and if a couple of degrees over, so what?
Well, the engine could be overloaded, the radiator (or other cooling arrangements) may not be adequate or have a fault, temperature measurement might be inaccurate, etc, etc. May be nothing wrong at all. No need to jump to premature conclusions.
But I daresay DD is used to at least diagnosing rather than jumping to the wrong conclusion.
Regards, RAB
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Dr D.
I was glad to see that you grew up on a farm, that tells me that you've had some experience around equipment. Your overall plans sound good, going off grid is a long term goal of mine, I don't have the funds to set it all up at once. I've been tracking alternative power for years now and it is more feasible today than ever. I do want to say, remember, this will be a major part time job and once you go off grid, you will be on call 24/7 for emergency repairs and maintenance.
I would advise that you slow down just a little and research a bit more of what has worked well for others. There are many willing to share and tons of sites and books out there with info on being self sustaining. Mother Earth News is a great place to start http://www.motherearthnews.com/ The Corvallis Farm is an excellent example of a self sufficient farm http://www.corvallisfarm.com/
The one trait that I've witnessed in all successful off grid ventures has been they keep it fairly small and effective, keep it efficient! Especially if you want to compete with the power company. 8)
Another good point, EVERYONE in the household has to be on the same page and well aware of the system and know it limits. No matter how big you build it, this will be a BIG lifestyle change for all involved.
Last chunk of advise, get a book that is a basic introduction to how diesel engines work and how to maintain them. I have a copy of Audel's Diesel Engine Manual, had it for years, it's hard to find but it's great. If that goes down well, then get a Diesel mechanics handbook, that will be helpful with your tractor too. We can only tell you so much, but if you do your own research and have your own resources, you'll be prepared to deal with the issues on the fly.
George's CD is packed with advise, but it doesn't cover everything. I uploaded it onto my computer and re-organized it so I could find things easier. He includes a manual for AC & DC Generator systems from the Navy that is great. No doubt a wealth of info on his CD, but there is so much more to learn.
Finally, have fun! If you get satisfaction from DIY projects, then you're going to have a blast!
Regards,
Murph'
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obviously if it is over 200F you have a problem with the thermostat
Let's be careful here. We have an inexperienced operator. I would not worry if the coolant exiting was less than 30C above the t-stat rating.
I should have clarified the fact that the pipe thermometer gauges go on the metal pipe going into the drum and out of the drum - they are soem distance away usually say 900mm - 1m or 36" - 40" if you are using imperial measure away from the engine - so thats why I look closely and monitor if it goes over 200F at the inlet to the drum. Our winter ambient is probably slightly above your at 65F - 70F during the day so you have even - it is probably more important to understand how load and speed affects temperature and work out what is normal Dr D.
Yes we get cyclones up north - winds over 120mph are rare thisd far south but it is not unusual to get 6 - 12" rain in a night in the monsoonal fed summer storms at least on the sub tropical coast where I live.
As Murph - says - it is about the journey not the destination - if you wanted it easy you would have purchsed a turn key Cummins or a Cat "no touching" type power system.
Regards and best wishes to all of you - some good advice has been shared and that pool of knowledge will grow.
I've just ordered the Utterpower "Bill Rogers" book - I'll see if it is as useful as I am led to believe.
Stephen Hutson
Gizmos T/As OzListeroids
AUSTRALIA
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Hey Dr.D, (and anyone else who might be interested.)
I found there are a few Audels diesel engine manuals for sale on Ebay. I'd go for the ones from the 30s, 40s or 50s as they have great coverage on diesel engines from the same era that the Listeroid is from. Gives you a good basic understanding of the engine, how it functions and how to maintain and operate it.
Just search for: Audels diesel engine manual
Murph'
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Thanks for the info, I have my eye on a couple of them. A friend of mine who is also my mechanic here in town is almost as excited as I am about getting my engine even if it is over sized for my first lister. I get it the 14 of Aug. and will be home by the 16th. I have made several plans since I found out that it would be large enough to use the electricty for some projects I hadnt planned on before. I bet I will make the engine work when I have it running. I still plan on a cement structure for the storage area of the motor because it will double as a storm shelter. We have a company that makes above ground shelters and these buildings will take a direct hit from a toranado. My plans are built around thier enginering just a little stronger. I have started securing used motor oil and used veg oil. I havent decided on which I will use in engine. I am leaning towards vegtable oil and using motro oil for suplement heat for green house. I will start my shed with pouring the base for the motor then build everything else around it. I might need to rebuild the base on the generator sincs I have no idea about how heave it is. I do know Power Line sold the system and I was told they were reputable. Any insight on them? This is probably enough for now. Thanks again.
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Well I got my engine home Aug 16th. When I arived to the destination to pick it up it had no exghaust no cooling system hooked up so I had to take the word of the seller it ran as advertised. I dont think they lied because I have become good friends with the seller and nephew. We loaded the engine on Aug 15 th and started the 1000 mi trip home. We spent 6 days on this trip so the whole trip was a great vacation. My wife was a little over whelmed by the size of it. The funny part was when we stopped in the local Walmart one onlooker came up to us with praise for the engine and the whole history behing the engine. It seems he was involved in helping the seller put the system together and drove all the way to Huston to pick up the engine. I was concerned before I saw the engine that it might not have a large enough base under it. It has 2 12inch I beams for support. I still have my work cut out in building an exghaust system, change the air filter system and desgin a cooling system before I even crank it. I figure it will take me a week to dig the footings and frame up a slab since I now know the size of the base. After it is set then I will begin work on the building. Since this building will also double as a above ground toranado shelter this will take a little time. I had an idea of using tractor tires for the forms of the base with plenty of steele then the ribs of the tires will help with vibrations from the base. Has anyone tried something like this??? Then I will pour the floor about 4 inches below the top of the tire to make it lower than the base. I plan to use 6 inches of concrete in the floor and about 2 or 3 tractor tires thick for the base. I am asking for ideas this time before I make plans. My next step is to pull the panel from the front of the engine after I drain the oil and look inside to see if there is any sand. i also plan to put a couple of magnets in the sump. I saw the oil filter that came on the engine and it will have to go. I havent looked into what options I will have to rebuild this. This is all for now. I appericate this forum for all of the good advice I have been given. Knowing that I did go a little over board with the engine and generator only lets me plan to build other projects I have been limited to because of the price our electricty bill has run. I am confident when I am finished the engine and generator will have a work out. THANKS AGAIN. Mike PS I recieved my Audels book in the mail while we were gone. So I should be fixed for diesel information. Thanks Murph
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So, The towns surrounding you have power outages for up to six weeks?
Huh, Never realised I had it so good here in BC. I'm busy grumbling at the utility if I have to go without for 6 hours....
Faced with those possibilities, I don't think you made a mistake at all. Either in the purchase or the sizing mainly because the big engine is capable of running 24/7 for months on end without a break (with proper maintaince) I can't say for sure but I don't think you would get the same service out of a honda year over year....
If you think you really went overboard on the sizing you could always hook your neighbour up and sell him power. That would increase the load to a more appropriate size for the gen set and help you out with the costs.... (step up and step down transformers for long distances?)
Either way, the gen set will work just fine as backup to the utility no matter the size. Get those bugs worked out then look at helping the utility out by generating power for them (you sell them power) or going off grid...
remember: You didn't buy a generator, you bought a hobby. Keep it fun.
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Make sure you mount the generator high enough to be comfortable while cranking it over. eventually you will rig up a starter, but you will still crank it over for maintenance.
Too big an engine will use more fuel, but otherwise no problem.
You can run it at reduced RPM. Mine is rated at 1000, but it shook too much. I got a smaller gen pulley, and it runs about 735 RPM now. It's an ASHWAMEGH 25/2, with a 12 Kw head. It still puts out 10 KW (maxed out).
I thought about two different sizes of generator pulleys. That would be for low Kw and fuel economy at low engine RPM, and high Kw at a higher RPM. I even considered a 2 speed gearbox.
Start simple. Play with it and have fun. When our power went out for 5 days, it ran great. I have an all electric house like you.
I never regretted having a large engine and you won't either.
Just be careful and think safety. Both for the engine and especially yourself and keep others away from it.
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I also think you will be happy with a larger engine . I have read a number of post wih theories on damage etc that will supposedly occur if you dont load the engine up to 75% or greater and for the most part its just not true. Unless something major has changed in diesel engine theory of operation the only issue you should have with an engine thats not fully loaded is a build up of carbon , partialy burned fuel and gunk from not reaching optimum operating temp, which for the most part can be negated with a thermostat to keep head temp in the proper range.
If this under loading issue was the big deal some folks make it to be then I wonder how all these ligtly loaded diesel engines , in semis hauling an empty load, farm tractors, etc hold up so well and run so long?
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correct, low loading will lead to more carbon build up and more frequent maint , lack of maint will lead to engine damage. The increased engine loading is neccesary to keep the engine up to temp for proper combustion and to insure all the calculated clearances exist as diff materials expand at diff rates, but with a water cooled engine the addition of a thermostat can help mantain proper temp at lighter loads and eliminate alot of the issues
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So I have some questions about thermostats. First I know that thermostats can and will fail. It has happened more than once in my vehicles. When this happens it seems the engines always over heat. Regular engines gas or diesel have bypasses but still they seem to over heat. What is the best solution and thermostat to use on these engines because I might not be there if this happens and the engine could be ruined. Next I was curious if anyone has any experience with my idea of using tractor tires for the forms for the base with the tire treads being used for vibration reduction? Lastly are there any brands of mufflers that work the best for noise reduction? That should keep me busy for a while. Thanks for everything, Mike
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Another suggestion is go to dealer's and buy a thermostat for example for chrysler 2.2/2.5 this is 195F thermostat and not very big either. Still working flawlessly after 2 years of daily driving.
The aftermarket thermostat are questionable. If you are forced to buy from there, try to get premium line and none of fail open crap.
Cheers, Wizard
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My thoughts on the tractor tire vibration damper are that it may fail. If your slab is allowed too much movement it could crack and break apart.
Best follow the suggested slab engineering that Lister origionally came up with. Vibration dampers between the concrete and steel bases would be the best bet.
Besides. If you form the dampers (tractor tires) in with the concrete, what will happen when one wears out or needs to be changed? Up comes the slab?
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Hi I am a new bee also I have a 16/1 with a 10kwt head . The engin is set to run at 1000 from the factory. I have my engin set at 650 and the governor still seem to work pretty well. I would think about a battery setup thou. My plan is to use a forlift battery and charger and charge 6 hrs 1 day a week. With a industrial battery charger you will have a decent load on the engin, and the load won't be changing that much so a slower govenor responce won't be an issue. Also you engin is water cooled but the gen head needs a good supply of cooling air something to think about when making you gen shed /storm shelter.
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I guess I didnt realize there was an actual Lister recomendation for bases. It seem all I have seen is different ideas. There are about as many ideas about them as belly buttons out there. I will try to find it on the forum. I will also use the advise on a chrysler theromast. i never thought about what would if the concrete would crack inside a tractor tire, or if the rubber wore out. That would have not been a fun fix. Thanks
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I guess I didnt realize there was an actual Lister recomendation for bases. It seem all I have seen is different ideas. There are about as many ideas about them as belly buttons out there. I will try to find it on the forum. I will also use the advise on a chrysler theromast. i never thought about what would if the concrete would crack inside a tractor tire, or if the rubber wore out. That would have not been a fun fix. Thanks
I'm about as new as you are when it comes to listers so.... (Ok, ok, ok.... I don't actually HAVE one... (yet) It's just hanging around out in the bush waiting for me to go pick it up....)
I recall reading somewhere on here where there is a recommended size slab for the engine. I believe it did require quite a bit of concrete....
At any rate, finding out listers recommendations would probably be a very good start to customising your own slab/base
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Hey Dr. D.
Sounds like your making progress and you seem to be aware of what you have to get done before firing that fine engine up.
On the foundation, I believe westcoaster was referring to the original Lister foundation recommendations which you will find in the manuals. You got a copy of the Utterpower CD right? well, if you go to: utterpower otherstuff / Lister Types / Lister manuals and Docs. Within there are a number of Lister Manuals each one has a section on Foundations. They all seem a bit vague, I'd go with a minimum of 1 ton of concrete, it will depend on the sub soil conditions, the softer the soil, the more concrete is required.
Within the forum is a doc for download, forgot where I found it now, that's called "Engine Foundations.pdf" At least, I think I found it here. At any rate, it's a great source of info on how they created engine foundations back in the twenties and thirties. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll upload it to my server for you and other to access.
Personally, I'd tame that beast with a bunch of concrete, if you're not planning on going anywhere anytime soon then as I like to say, make it "Skookum"!
Murph'
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Hey Dr. D.
Within the forum is a doc for download, forgot where I found it now, that's called "Engine Foundations.pdf"
Murph'
I think this thread engine mounting 4.0 (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1431.0) might be the one to which Mr. Murph is referring.
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That's the one Bagpiper! Thanks for digging that up.
BTW, Welcome to the forum!
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Thanks for the welcome, Murph. Mostly I just lurk and learn, but maybe once in awhile can make a contribution.
As my father-in-law (who, oddly enough happens also to be named Murph) always tells me "All contributions are gratefully accepted!" ;) ;)
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Don't let a lack of thermostat hold you up.
I have a Pontiac cross flow radiator, even tho- it is considered no good for a thermosyphon set up.
It works. I have a 120 volt attic fan to draw air thru it.
I cover part of the radiator with a piece of paper or sheet of plastic to regulate the temp.
You do need a thermometer to tell what your water temp is leaving the engine.
That will get you started. Don't worry about having too large an engine. You say it's for back up power, so a some-what greater fuel consumption won't matter. This engine is just like a great big air compressor. It won't hurt it to run at low power. If it gets carboned up, (which in your case will take years) drain the coolant and pull the head. Scrape the carbon off the heads and piston crowns and put it back together.
When you first start running this engine - generator combination, you must stay with it and keep an eye on it until you get confidence in it. You will work out ways to perfect it.
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So as I was working on my portable generator trailer today a project which I need to finish before I start on my stationary engine I noticed what I think is the oil filter. It is tubing coming from what looks like the bottom of the engine and goes through a tube part way up the engine and then looks like it has a site glass or maybe I just need more sleep. If in fact this is the oil filter system then is it ok to cut into the system and put a real filtering system on it and just leave the contacption at the top end because it looks like it is rather large to try to manfacture something to replace it???? Also when I get ready to work on my stationary engine my goal is to slow down my engine to around 700 RPMs. When I do this I surley hope there will be a kind soul out there that will let me know what size of pulley I will need to make the generator run at 1800. When I am ready I will post the size of my flywheels. If someone post a formuls for me to figure out then I am SOL. I gave up on math when they decided to include number, letters and silly figures. This is not to say I cant figure out a drip rate on numerous cardiac drugs without those formulas. I can even get close without a caculator. It is just my form of math. My teachers always shook thier heads but had to pass me because I always came up with the right answers without cheating. LOL I think I have decided on how I am going to build my base but I will post it before I do it to see what type of response I get. I think it will be about 3 1/3 to 4 yards of concrete. It might be over kill but I only want to do it once. Waiting for answers for my oil solution. Mike :)
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what size of pulley
That is an easy one to figure. Just remember the belt runs at the same speed on both pulleys ie. the same distance in a given time.
Diameter x Pi x revs per minute (of one pulley) = diameter x Pi x revs per minute (for the other pulley)
This is because in Pi x diameter is a distance, so distance per unit time (distance x number of rotations) is speed (distance/time). Simple as that.
Pi is a common term to both sides so can be ignored in the calculation. You know three of the four variables so you can solve for the fourth by inserting your known values in the formula and then probably use a calculator to find the pulley size needed.
Regards, RAB
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Dr D.
You really should take some time to go through the Utterpower CD, you will find a many an answer within.
On pulley sizes, if you go to: Utterpower otherstuff / sheaves and pulleys. You will find and Excel page that allows you to input RPM and flywheel sizes in any configuration and it will calculate your needs.
However, it would be a good idea to verify those results with the formula that RAB has provided. As George says, do your own math!
On your portable, don't recall you mentioning that you were building one, cool! What kind of engine are you using on the portable? That can make a big difference as to what that "tube" is coming from the bottom of the engine. Sounds to me like you might be talking about an air-cooled gas pot, if so, I'd just run it and change the oil as needed.
Murph'
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If you are talking about the oil tube on the Lister twin? The oil tube starts at the bottom where it picks up oil from the bottom of the sump. There should be a strainer inside.
The tube is the suction to the oil pump. Do Not cut into this. The oil pump is a plunger pump that is pushed by an accentric on the cam shaft. There is a strong spring on the head of the plunger that pushes it back toward the camshaft.
The oil pump has 3 check valves to keep the oil headed in the right direction. They are simple ball check valves. One is at the bottom fitting at the block, the next is at the bottom of the oil pump, and the third is at the top of the pump under that nut. You take off this nut and pour some oil in to prime the oil pump before you start the engine.
Before you start the engine, you take off the crank case door, and look in at the coneceting rods and crankshaft. Take the time to squirt some oil into the oil holes on top of the main bearings and the two connecting rods.
You absolutely need to read the lister manual and get George's CD. These are wonderful basic engines, but you don't appear to have a mechanical upbringing. That's no problem, you just need to spend a bit more time collecting and reading the literature we reccomend.
Welcome to our group of 'dirty under the fingernails miscreants' 8)
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The portable generator is powered by my 20 hp diesel garden tractor. The generator trailer will include a 180 amp wire feed welder and a 220 amp stick welder with a tourch. This will just be used for projects for myself and a few friends who will not laugh that I didnt buy a regular portable welder. I do have a CD and book from George and I have spent a little time with it I just figured I would use it more when I finally get to start with my stationary engine. So the question I had about the oil line seemed to be a good one before I ruined something. Just where do you put a regular oil filter? I know people do this. This might be in Georges book? Sometimes I just get the cart before I have the horse. To back up a little the portable generator will also be used if the power goes out for an extended time for the neighbors. I also plant a community garden to share with others. When I have my greenhouse I will have goodies to share year round. I have to say I have worked on numerous engines in my lifetime on the farm but I always had my grandpa or dad there to master mind the project. Since that is no longer possible I seem lost. Maybe when I get started some of the knowledge will shake loose from the cob webs in the back of my brain. My welding skill returned qruite quickly after 20 years in health care. Thank you Oliver for the formula. I should be smart enough to figure that out. As for the tube Irish it is on my Lister engine and sits on the oppsite side of the engine of the big plate that removes. I dont actually have my engine at home yet because I have not got its resting place done yet. That project will have to wait until the trailer is finished and a storage shed is done. I have just seen it twice since I got it home so I am just going of memory. Enough for now I need to get back to work. I had to work last night and worked around the house till about noon then got a little sleep. I had to log on here to get my FORUM fix before I goy back to work. This forum is to me is like a drug addiction to others, I cant go long without opening it up. Mike PS I did get a Audels Diesel book because i figured it couldnt hurt.
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So as I was working on my portable generator trailer today a project which I need to finish before I start on my stationary engine I noticed what I think is the oil filter. It is tubing coming from what looks like the bottom of the engine and goes through a tube part way up the engine and then looks like it has a site glass or maybe I just need more sleep.
I'm sorry Dr. D. from your post it sounded to me like you were talking about another engine on your portable generator. My bad. ;)
Hey, I understand, I grew up the youngest of 6, I was following everyone's lead for most of my life. Over the years I've boned up on my studies in regards to the subjects I intend to master. Of course, I never will but, I'm getting 'er done!
Regards,
Murph'
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DD
Here's my $0.02 in hopes that this puts you at ease :)
I too have a 25/2 w/15KW head - Best think I could have ever bought
My wife too was totally irrate for me spending so much $$ on such a project as well as being jelous of me spending more time with Big Green - Too Bad, So Sad. One day she will thank me
I too have concerns with underloading - I have 2kw of lights and 3kw of space heaters for extra load when needed
I live in hurricane country and needed a dependable backup system that would power the whole house 24/7 without the family crying about not being able to do this or why can't I do that now - 10kw will fill the bill
Hurricane Ike comes along and wife was THRILLED that I did all this for HER. Kids were just glab they had tv and didn't have to live in the dark - Big Green ran like a clock
In summary: Enjoy your hobby, wife will thank you for doing this for her when the power goes out
Things to do:
Buy the CD
Adjust the spill timing - mine was a bear to start until I adjusted the timing. The injectors fired too soon
Change the spring - my governor and linkage was sloppy and didn't respond well to small load changes. A new spring and removing the linkage slop helped. I can go from 62 hz no-load to 58 hz full-load now. I have mine adjusted to 60 hz with both a/c's, water pump and a few lights on. It will swing between 61 and 59 hz with items cycling, being tuned on and off, etc...
Devise resistive loads and operate it at slower speeds to find its "sweet spot", where it sounds happy and has minumal vibration. Make sure you are at least 50% load here. Measure that rpm and have George (or whomever) make a pulley for that speed. You will find it to be happy ~750 to 800 rpm.
Oh, and Have Fun
Dave