Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Bio-diesel Fuel => Topic started by: Sukhoi_fan on April 19, 2006, 05:47:14 AM
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This source is eclipsed only by the promise of oil from algae (which will require a huge capital investment) and possibly rivaled by palm oil, relative to yield per acre.
And it is "virtually impossible to eliminate" once it's introduced into an area. It is a proven substitute for PD.
Unfortunately, it is only found growing in certain parts of the country (where it just takes over once introduced), and where it isn't found, nobody will want to see it introduced.
The good news is that is thrives on land that has little use for any other ag purposes.
It's the Chinese Tallow tree.
We're trying to get a handle on how to harvest it economically. Any ideas???
www.hear.org/pier/pdf/nrcs_plant_guide__triadica_sebifera.pdf (http://www.hear.org/pier/pdf/nrcs_plant_guide__triadica_sebifera.pdf)
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BTW, seeing that there is a WVO forum but no SVO forum, may I suggest starting an SVO forum since there is an interest here in extracting SVO?
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I didn't know anyone else ever heard of it. I heard where there is one of these and the owner is struggling to keep it under control. The state doesn't know about it yet and I have permission to get samples. I think he wants to destroy it eventually.
After reading the attached file, I don't know why it hasn't spread further. The USDA stated that the precise mechanism for spread is not really known. The paper further states that it was considered in the 80's for biomass and oil production on the Gulf coast.
Perhaps since oil is sky high, it might be time for another look.
Wonder what the biodiesel potential is for the oil. So little time.
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I couldn't get the site to come up
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Never heard of it what is it? Thomas
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The site wouldn't come up for me either...What is this stuff? Interested....
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Sorry guys, I don't know what to tell ya about that link not opening for ya. I just cliicked on the link in original post and it opened just fine for me. Of course it is a pdf document and you know how squirrelly those can be in Windows.
Go to your favorite search engine(s) and do a search on 'Chinese Tallow tree'.
I searched and found sources stating a yield of up to 1,000 gallons or more of oil per acre from the berries of the Chinese Tallow tree. :o
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Here is a link the the entire directory.
http://www.hear.org/pier/pdf/
And the parent page.
http://www.hear.org/pier/
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Andre' B.
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I believe I recall hearing it already is a big problem in the Everglades. I think I heard it dries out the swamp, burns like gasoline and spreads like wildfire. For what it's worth, I'd be very, very careful. Quotes of fantastic yields ("1000 gallons of oil per acre") nearly always are either gross exaggerations or are dependant on other factors unnamed. (Like, it took 30 years to begin yielding, etc.) More Kudzu anyone? How about some beautiful Water Hyacinth? Everyplace has their nasty introduced weeds, but some of the worst are ones purposely planted because they seemed so useful once. My $0.02. :)
Ray
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From all the research I've done thus far and the RKIs I have chatted with, 500 to 1,000 gallon/acre yields seem realistic, IF they could be harvested on a large scale. The challenge is harvesting the berries economicially, that's why no one has already done this. And it is a huge, seemingly insurmountable challenge. At this point I have serious doubts it could be feasible due to all the little problems. In China where manual labor is dirt cheap, they harvest by hand, but because of other factors their culitivation of Tallow tree berries is on the decline.
The current line of thinking is to get one of those tree shakers like they use to harvest pecans with. We're likely going to give it a shot, but this year's berries wouldn't be ripe enough until fall.
And because it is considered a noxious weed by many (and it really is), it would be a really bad idea to introduce them somewhere where they haven't already invaded.
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I think the most two plants talked about in the everglades in the past were Melaleuka and Brazilian pepper. They cover many thousands more acres (in Florida). The Chinese Tallow tree goes anywhere south of a hard freeze and prefers the swamp/wetland. It is more an interest to the USDA but the paper mentiones a couple of times that it has an ornamental use...even in California of all places. Since it is already in my county, I am not worried about "introducing" it.
I was thinking of producing them "orchard" style and forcing seed production with gibberellic acids. The younger the tree can be forced, the more possibility of controlling the spread. Oil could be extracted with a simple screw machine.
Sukhoi-fan, do they run diesels on straight tallow oil or is it converted into biodiesel?
still reading........
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I think the most two plants talked about in the everglades in the past were Melaleuka and Brazilian pepper. They cover many thousands more acres (in Florida). The Chinese Tallow tree goes anywhere south of a hard freeze and prefers the swamp/wetland. It is more an interest to the USDA but the paper mentiones a couple of times that it has an ornamental use...even in California of all places. Since it is already in my county, I am not worried about "introducing" it.
I was thinking of producing them "orchard" style and forcing seed production with gibberellic acids. The younger the tree can be forced, the more possibility of controlling the spread. Oil could be extracted with a simple screw machine.
Sukhoi-fan, do they run diesels on straight tallow oil or is it converted into biodiesel?
still reading........
I'm thinking that if it is economical enough to harvest to use it for a source for biodiesel ag fuel production. I don't know enough about it to address its use as SVO in a diesel, although you can certainly expect that if and when I extract some Tallow tree berry SVO a Lister will get a diet of some to check it out. ;D
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I could be a REAL hero/villian in Idaho and introduce a weed tree that would kill off Russian Olives....another weed tree.
Kudzoo, Clotalaria (sp?), Russian Olive, Mimosa, Pepper Tree, water hysinth, English waterweed, Canada thistles...the list of plants (and animals) that have found new homes by using human transportation (and scientific influences) are expanding....as could be expected, as humans and their transportation gets more plentiful. ;)
I *need* a landscape plant with these specifications-- Cold tolorent to -30 F, drought tolorant, fast growing, pretty, and fire proof.
Ideas??
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I *need* a landscape plant with these specifications-- Cold tolorent to -30 F, drought tolorant, fast growing, pretty, and fire proof.
Ideas??
crystals
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Good idea, but I think soil augmentation with organics will allow Quaking Aspens which are native in areas of top soil and moisture. Crystal growth takes too much water. ;D
I'm allowed a half acre of "lawn" irrigation and the property has another half acre of irrigation water use exemption for fire protection. By reducing grass with rock gardens I can create an artificial Aspen grove on the hillside by changing the irrigation patterns and amounts. Now, the problem is cooling the water before use since it's 108F coming out of the well.
I'm leaning towards insulating one of the 20,000 gallon tanks so the water is cooled by spraying in the summer and the same tank can be used for heating water in the winter.
An hour with the Lister pumpset just bought will irrigate for a day, 13,000 gal/day allowed. In the wintertime the water would come from one of the hot springs instead of the well and use (for heat) is unlimited. Fortunately the place was plumbed with seperate 4 inch lines to the two tanks and they're valved to be able to split on tank off for domestic (pure, well water) and the other for a combo of well water for irrigation and spring water for heat.
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You've mentioned aspen which is native, but there's also poplar like the Lombardy (Populus nigra) which grows fast and tall, providing good shade. It's good in zones 3-9. You're in zone 5b http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-sw1.html so it should be fine there. Cedars/junipers/cypress should also should do well there. You're too cold for Italian cypress which makes a dandy hedge/windbreak (as opposed to a breakwind) and grows tall and fast. There might be another variety that can handle your climate. Run a drip line around the roots and feed it slowly and the water should be cool by the time it gets there. Alkalai in the water and soil might be a problem, though. Some soil amendment, eg. till in some compost, is a good idear until they get established. Last time I was through there with the kids and motorhome I didn't see anything other than grass between you and about Cody.
Halfnuts
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halfnuts--- The grass was planted. Sage brush and sprouts of wire is normal. . ;)
Lombardi's do well in deeper soils but tip over here. I can't dig a deep enough hole. Cedar and junipers are native to more acid soils near here but definite fire hazards to have around the buildings.
I had great luck with "Austrees" north of here in better soil. I've got some cuttings and will try more here. They grow more than a foot a year in dry country.
The lack of legal water and the total lack of soil is the real problem. Dirt here is silica-rich ryholite clays and gravels for about a foot and then bedrock....OR just bedrock sticking out of the ground. The beavers get anything planted in the wet ground around the creek and drought, locust, and range cattle get the rest. :)
But I'm about to bring in a trailer load of peat moss and cow manure and try to fool Ma Nature into thinking 'cool Aspen glade'. There's a natural stand of eight Aspens about a mile from here at State Line Springs. I may have to take a day and go over and study them by taking a nap under them in the heat of the day. 8) 8)
.....and fish the creek on the way back.
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But I'm about to bring in a trailer load of peat moss and cow manure and try to fool Ma Nature into thinking 'cool Aspen glade'. There's a natural stand of eight Aspens about a mile from here at State Line Springs. I may have to take a day and go over and study them by taking a nap under them in the heat of the day. 8) 8)
.....and fish the creek on the way back.
Doing the right thing, being observant, taking care of the planet for future generations...
I see the tremendous hard work you are doing in this area and hope you are able to withstand all the stress and strain.
Finest regards,
troy
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Back to Chinese Tallow...
I live in a County of Florida that shows to already be 'infected' by this plant.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/county?state_name=Florida&statefips=12&symbol=TRSE6
How might I go about locating these little buggers? I've never hunted a tree before...
No harm in fooling with something that's already here. May as well see if I can put it to use.
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The two places I would start asking are:
1. Your county almost certainly has a county agricultural extension agent. If they don't know, they know who knows.
2. Call the nearest college/university and ask at the biology department who the local invasive species expert is. If they don't have an expert, they'll have somebody who knows something and can point you in the right direction.
Good luck and keep us posted.
troy
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Is there anything useful in Japanese Knotweed? Out here in the Seattle area the Knotweed fights the Himalayan Blackberry, another unwelcome pest. I'd love it if they would fight each other to a standstill...oh, and kill the morning glories in the fracas. Mabe wipe out the Starlings too? (one can hope)
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Hay Shipchief is the devils club still alive and well ther ? It ysed to be a big problem in the valley around Kent. Tom T
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Well, I think it is being crowded out by another invasive species; the high density single family home development. 50' x 70' lots, almost like Baltimore row houses!
Scott E
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And you cant understand any of them at least I cant :( Tom T
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I just wandered around my property for a bit, and noticed I have this dirty little Triadica Sebifera growing right in my own backyard, literally.
Hmmm..........
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Whatever you do, be responsible ie don't just throw the seeds around anywhere. As a former Department of Agriculture inspector In Florida I can tell you that any plant declared invasive is illegal to knowingly move via seeds or cuttings for the purpose of propagating or establishing elsewhere in the state.
This may sound silly because birds move Brazilian Pepper all over the place. It is a fact though and you can get nailed by a nosey neighbor, etc so tell no one. Getting nailed probably just means a warning at first but then you are marked and will be checked once and a while. Not good. If you intend to move a tallow plant to your yard to study, it would be best to keep it to yourself. (IE, don't call in an "airstrike")
If you concientiously develop a system where the plant can be contained and it's byproducts used sucessfully, keep it to yourself until it works perfectly. Start small. Special permits can then be applied for and a working model makes a very convincing argument. I thought of trying this myself and with a little ingenuity it might work. But know the risks before you start.
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That's good advice since I'm not on the SS's good side anyway... I shouldn't mail them some custom-made lightning-bolt armbands with a note saying I have 'evil' trees, eh? :-P
But I'm way out in the middle of nowhere, and I just found 2 more of them along the edge of my property. Total of 3 then. 2 of them look like they're at least 4 years old, the other is smaller maybe 2 years old. It isn't flowering at all but the larger two are. I'll just work with them where they are.
They aren't growing too well. They're survivng, but that's about it. The biggest one might be 6 years old, and is barely 8 feet tall. Really long thin branches with sparse foliage. I live on top of a rather high sandy ridge, Triadica Sebifera prefers lower mashy soil, and this is just a big sand trap... I can't even grow weeds here. I doubt I could propogate them even if I tried.
But the small size will make them nice study samples. When the fruits/seeds produce in the fall, I'll have a nice small plant to experiment with harvesting. And I can shoot the birds with my Son's BB gun so they don't spread it... yeah... that's a good excuse... ;-)
I was thinking of a large tarp/canvass that was sloped to one side and had a hole in the middle for the trunk to fit. High side about 5 feet up, low side on the ground/in a trough to collect the falling seeds. Maybe shake them out to expedite. They're small and flimsy enough that I can do it by hand without a machine. Yield won't be useful, but it's a plan for experimentation.
It seems little is supposedly know about how it propogates. Or rather, they don't want to talk about it cuz someone might start doing it.
I have a 12 ton hydraulic shop press. I figure I'll make up some steel tubing, capped, and a piston for a small scale pressing deal, and see how it goes come fall. Come to think of it.... A galvanized pipe nipple with an end cap, and a piece of loose-fitting steel bar as a piston.
Now all I need is a Lister......... I wish I had the money to snatch up the 24/2 that's for sale less than 65 miles from my house....
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What is he asking for the 24/2
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I asked, but didn't get a reply. Most anything rational is out of my price range for the next few weeks....
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Ixtow.... Have you checked into how they harvest Olives in Italy...with a net below the tree to catch what drops... It may be what you are looking for in respect to harvesting the berries. Just a thought. Will be watching for your post on results. binnie
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From what I've read, the leaves fall off easier than the seeds when it's in season. It's a big part of why they aren't used much. I was hoping for something really slanted to take advantage of the round rolling of the seed, and allow the flat leaves to just sit on it. Er, it's an idea anyway..... I'll be letting you know how it goes in about 6 months.
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People I've talked to who have these trees around their property tell me they are very prolific. If they cut a branch and let it lay it will sprout. Perhaps its your elevation ie lack of water. Use this to your advantage as a mitigation against spread! Get some seeds or cuttings from your trees any way you can. Treat them well. Once you create an environment like what is described in the USDA document they will grow fast and vigorous. May I suggest:
Try to build a little greenhouse to a standard size to keep cost down. Pick the site thoughtfully for ventilation, privacy and drainage because you don't want to swelter in heat, be walking in mud all the time or have passers-by see it. I would grow in troughs (Plastic window box or dranpipes?) set side to side on wire benches. Put a drain hole 3" up to create a reservoir in the bottom. Use a constant feed of water + soluble fertilizer like "Peters" at about 100ppm 3X/week. Water until the drains flow. (variations of this are commonly used in semi-hydroponic vegetables or for growing wetland restoration plants). Anyone asks just tell them your wife loves orchids. None are for sale.
There must also be some links out there.
If you get these things growing plan "A" would be to force seed production in the greenhouse using gibberellic acid. Then you could scale up and harvest in the houses just like greenhouse vegetables. The secret is to find which GIB, what rate and when to apply. It can be done though because flowers are forced all the time. Since flowers are the reproductive parts I would duplicate some of those regimes first.
If it doesn't work plan "B" is to use the seedlings from the greenhouse as resets in the field operation. Control the height using Paclobutrazol. They will stay short and still produce! Since technically they are an "ornamental not used for consumption" you can legally apply this to your advantage. Let me know when you are ready and I will be glad to help you find sources for the chemicals. (Disclaimer: I am a salesman for wholesale chemicals in commercial agriculture and horticulture.) You don't need me though, just look up that chemical names I gave you. Just passing on the information to my fellow Listeroids.
MORE IMPORTANTLY: I used the last of my spendable cash to to buy one last "pre ban" PS 10/1 and head from Joel Koch that is just now screaming for my attention. Dying to open the crates and I hear them now calling... CALLING and telling me to shut-up and get the sawzall! OK, I'm back. May I indulge in a paragraph of drama from a listeroid freak?
Now all Listeroid brothers think back to when you opened your first crate. Mine is sitting in front of me; the last barrier to my prize. It looks like something from an Indiana Jones movie. I hold the sawzall pointing skyward and sqeeze off several brief whines to make sure that sucker's plugged in good. Then I wail a loud whoooohhooo! My wife seriously considers dialing 911 and clutches the boys some distance behind me, one in each arm. The boys stand silent and wide eyed, recording every second in their young minds. I open my pocket knife and boldly slash open the shrinkwrap! ( I heard a distant female voice behind me say "careful with that, honey, dont get cut..") Carefully closing the kife and putting it away, the odor of moldy wood and rusty nails quickly fills the surrounding air. For a second I am standing at the docks in India....The excitement is just too much. (again I hear a distant female voice behind me saying "don't forget your gloves, honey") I start shouting: Gloves? I don't need no stinkin gloves! Stay back! Where are the boys!? Stay back! I cut through the top nails on the brittle old wooden crate. There are loud squeals and shreaks. At last the top nails are severed, my heart pounds and it feels great! ... Lord this is truly an addiction! Pulling the top off makes it creak and groan like an old casket...cool. The boys are dying to see....Stay back! I throw the top to the side and dust puffs into the air when it lands in the grass. Peering inside I expect to see my listeroid. But oh man its just a stinkin' bag! I am fustrated (the distant female voice is louder now and says "you almost hit us with the top of that crate, will-you-calm-down?") Ignoring her I jab my fingers through the plastic and rip open the bag with my bare hands. Behold! Its shiney green and smells like old oil. To me, it is gold. I am instantly 7yrs old raking hay on the old popper, at an engine show and back on the farm shop all at once in the same second. Holy hannah, I just reclaimed a feeling of my youth! I pat the top of the valve cover...mmmmmmmm its finally here.... more to follow in another thread.....
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Get out the butterfly net we got another one to catch. Tom T :)
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sounds like it is too late///another one hooked on the smell of oill and diesel//sid
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People I've talked to who have these trees around their property tell me they are very prolific. If they cut a branch and let it lay it will sprout. Perhaps its your elevation ie lack of water. Use this to your advantage as a mitigation against spread! Get some seeds or cuttings from your trees any way you can. Treat them well. Once you create an environment like what is described in the USDA document they will grow fast and vigorous. May I suggest:
Try to build a little greenhouse to a standard size to keep cost down. Pick the site thoughtfully for ventilation, privacy and drainage because you don't want to swelter in heat, be walking in mud all the time or have passers-by see it. I would grow in troughs (Plastic window box or dranpipes?) set side to side on wire benches. Put a drain hole 3" up to create a reservoir in the bottom. Use a constant feed of water + soluble fertilizer like "Peters" at about 100ppm 3X/week. Water until the drains flow. (variations of this are commonly used in semi-hydroponic vegetables or for growing wetland restoration plants). Anyone asks just tell them your wife loves orchids. None are for sale.
There must also be some links out there.
If you get these things growing plan "A" would be to force seed production in the greenhouse using gibberellic acid. Then you could scale up and harvest in the houses just like greenhouse vegetables. The secret is to find which GIB, what rate and when to apply. It can be done though because flowers are forced all the time. Since flowers are the reproductive parts I would duplicate some of those regimes first.
If it doesn't work plan "B" is to use the seedlings from the greenhouse as resets in the field operation. Control the height using Paclobutrazol. They will stay short and still produce! Since technically they are an "ornamental not used for consumption" you can legally apply this to your advantage. Let me know when you are ready and I will be glad to help you find sources for the chemicals. (Disclaimer: I am a salesman for wholesale chemicals in commercial agriculture and horticulture.) You don't need me though, just look up that chemical names I gave you. Just passing on the information to my fellow Listeroids.
Thanks for the info. I'm not much of a chemist when it comes to the organic, so this helps a lot.
I have a hydroponics store near my house. I'll give you one gues what the majority of their customers grow... Having already made the Gestapo's 'List of people we like to harass,' being seen entering that establishment would probably be a Bad IdeaTM.
For now, tying to scrape enopgh money together to buy a Lister is my goal. I've seen "plant trough" things with their own plastic dome. Kind of like stand-alone greenhouses. I might be able to try that out. I kill grass by watering it, so I hope these things a as resilient as is said. I can kill any plant by explicitly trying not to...
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ixtow, I appreciate trying to do something with nothing. By having virtually zero disposable income myself I feel your pain. It took a year to get the Listeroid cash. But it is important to live debt free. Its emotion and lack of self control that gets in my way, as you can see in my earlier dramatization a few posts up. May I make a few suggestions for scrounging?:
You can grow very well in 5 gallon pails with lava rock 3" in the bottom and a moderately draining top soil thereafter up to about 4" from the top. Drill 3 drain holes 120 deg apart about 4" up from the bottom. Do not drill a bottom center hole, unless you are growing shrubbery, which we are not doing here. Each pail now becomes a semi-hydroponic cell. You can get pails free from fast-food places, grocery stores or on the side of the road. Go around and ask, you will be suprised. (I have done this, I know it works) Get "food" pails, not "paint" pails if possible.
One very important thing. I have been thinking about this alot. You are very lucky to have a nearby tree. If you propagate cuttings, they will have the same attributes as the parent. What I mean is, they will behave like they are the same AGE as the parent. This means that as soon as they have enough biomass within them they will produce seeds in season. You will be way ahead.
Go on the web and search for "propagation of woody ornamentals from cuttings"
Keep the date on your notes too (daylength and temp matter alot). Nothing new here just that you can scrounge this stuff very cheaply.
Sources: Pails...Free from McDonalds (pickle pails) etc.
Lava Rock: Cheap (but not totally free) from wholesale landscape suppliers (where you load with a shovel yourself) little more in bags. you don't need that much
Soil: Try using your existing top soil. If not buy peat based soil and blend it with yours, etc.
Irrigation: This can be tough but shop around garage sales or thrift stores for irrigation clocks, drip heads and watering wands (intermatic timers work good, simple repairable) battery powered drip kits from Toro are pretty cheap at Ace hardware. (but not free)
Greenhouse: Too expensive. You can get by without one if you use the pails.
Nothing is perfect. stay small but take your time and you should at least be able to get a row of 5 pails growing within 3 months. Good luck.
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ixtow, I appreciate trying to do something with nothing. By having virtually zero disposable income myself I feel your pain. It took a year to get the Listeroid cash. But it is important to live debt free. Its emotion and lack of self control that gets in my way, as you can see in my earlier dramatization a few posts up. May I make a few suggestions for scrounging?:
You can grow very well in 5 gallon pails with lava rock 3" in the bottom and a moderately draining top soil thereafter up to about 4" from the top. Drill 3 drain holes 120 deg apart about 4" up from the bottom. Do not drill a bottom center hole, unless you are growing shrubbery, which we are not doing here. Each pail now becomes a semi-hydroponic cell. You can get pails free from fast-food places, grocery stores or on the side of the road. Go around and ask, you will be suprised. (I have done this, I know it works) Get "food" pails, not "paint" pails if possible.
One very important thing. I have been thinking about this alot. You are very lucky to have a nearby tree. If you propagate cuttings, they will have the same attributes as the parent. What I mean is, they will behave like they are the same AGE as the parent. This means that as soon as they have enough biomass within them they will produce seeds in season. You will be way ahead.
Go on the web and search for "propagation of woody ornamentals from cuttings"
Keep the date on your notes too (daylength and temp matter alot). Nothing new here just that you can scrounge this stuff very cheaply.
Sources: Pails...Free from McDonalds (pickle pails) etc.
Lava Rock: Cheap (but not totally free) from wholesale landscape suppliers (where you load with a shovel yourself) little more in bags. you don't need that much
Soil: Try using your existing top soil. If not buy peat based soil and blend it with yours, etc.
Irrigation: This can be tough but shop around garage sales or thrift stores for irrigation clocks, drip heads and watering wands (intermatic timers work good, simple repairable) battery powered drip kits from Toro are pretty cheap at Ace hardware. (but not free)
Greenhouse: Too expensive. You can get by without one if you use the pails.
Nothing is perfect. stay small but take your time and you should at least be able to get a row of 5 pails growing within 3 months. Good luck.
Sadly, it would be illegal to grow Chinese Tallow, so I'll just have to propagate my Orange Trees instead... Golly, I wouldn't want to break any laws.
That's excellent help Old'. All these 5gal drywall compound buckets, from remodeling, are about to get used. As soon as the brass casings I keep picking up at the range are sorted and/or melted and thusly no longer occupying the 20 or so buckets.................. ;-) It's a habit I just can't break.
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Maybe its an urban legend, but I've heard Hemp can also produce a lot of oil.
Its a little hard to grow of feild of it though......
Doug
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Maybe its an urban legend, but I've heard Hemp can also produce a lot of oil.
Its a little hard to grow of feild of it though......
Doug
Er, wouldn't know about that. But it makes great rope...