Lister Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: compig on July 01, 2009, 04:38:58 PM

Title: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 01, 2009, 04:38:58 PM
We're having a heatwave here in the UK , it's around 30 deg C. What constitutes a heatwave in the US ?
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: rl71459 on July 01, 2009, 06:05:27 PM
Thats 86 F,  My opinion... thats plenty warm! I dont know what constitutes a "heatwave" It got near that here last week!
It's not uncommon for it to get to 90+F here (Michigan) in the summer... It sometimes (very rarely) get's into the triple digits and when it does I feel that is definetly a heatwave.... Hell I dont like it when its above 80 F.

Being slightly ROTUND doesnt help matters any :-[

Rob
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 01, 2009, 06:38:06 PM
I should have said it's been 28-30 Deg C for 4 or 5 days now and is set to continue that way until Friday.  Although it is warm I personally don't think it's actually that bad. I've been in Italy and the south of France when it's been 43-44 Deg C and that IS HOT !!  Remember one time being in France riding through Orange in grid lock. I was on my Ducati 900SS with a friend on the same bike with his girlfriend on pillion. The temp was 42 Deg C according to the customary public thermometer notable in French towns. It was a struggle in one piece leathers and full face helmet but I was keeping my cool so to speak !  The traffic moved , so I went with it but noticed my friend wasn't alongside after a few hundred mtrs. Looked back and he was therestationary in the middle of all the traffic causing a commotion !!  I pulled over , parked and ran back to see what was wrong , fully expecting it to be a bike problem. Apparantly he had passed out , his girlfriend had been quick to realise the bike was going over and put her feet down , just catching it intime !!

We got him off the bike , not easy , he was 5'11" and 175 Lbs , and laid him at the side of the road , removed his helmet , unzipped his leathers etc.
Fortunately there was a store nearby so we got water and a cloth and wiped him down then put a wet cloth on his head. He came around after a few minutes wondering what had happened !  Had me and his GF worried ! Someone had called an ambulance and they insisted he was taken to hospital for a checkover. Obvious really , but they decided he had dehydrated too much and suffered heat stroke. He was told to rest for that day , not drink anything except water and make sure to drink enough water in future for the rest of our holiday. Quite an adventure that trip , I fell off on the way back but thats another story. Oh , and the bikes never missed a beat !
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: dieseldave on July 01, 2009, 06:39:18 PM
  Hi! From Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.  It has gone up to 96F here on occasion. We have never hit the 100F mark.

  In winter, I have witnessed -44F!   This is a 140F Spread! :o
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 01, 2009, 06:48:56 PM
- 44 is COLD !!! Is that a coldwave ??!!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Doug on July 01, 2009, 09:56:45 PM
That -44 is what stiffens the Canadian spine, just don;t ask us to bend at those temps things get brittle lol.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 01, 2009, 10:08:26 PM
Same goes for most things at that temp !
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Wizard on July 01, 2009, 10:55:22 PM
30C around here is considered heatwave in ontario due to humidity index.

I know Britain is cooler damp country area but at 30C with humidity, I'm sure people are melting for sure.  Heatwave for sure.

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 01, 2009, 11:08:45 PM
Yeah , humidity has been relatively high. The most noticable thing for me is how hot the laptop gets !!  I work from home 60-70% of the time and it's quite uncomfortable when I have to work an hour or two at a stretch on it !!  So much so that I installed a program today to find out the temperature of the processor , between 50-60 deg on each core !! The fans cut in at 60 C.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Grael on July 02, 2009, 12:24:23 AM
We have a bit of a drought going on right now in Alberta.  :-[
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mbryner on July 02, 2009, 03:11:18 AM
It's 95 F / 35 C here in Southern Oregon today.   Low humidity though (20%).    Normal for this time of year.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 02, 2009, 06:04:46 AM
Very large areas of the Canadian prairies are having a 100 year drought/heat wave this year.  Came at the worst time for seed germination too.  Maybe much higher grain prices this fall.  ???
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 06, 2009, 03:48:06 PM
30c in the UK is always horribly uncomfortable due to the humidity. And the preaching of the "community leaders" (who are these mysterious community leaders anyway? I don't recall electing them?) who bang on about how we should drink lots of water, stay in the shade st all costs, never venture out into the sun unless you're wearing full arab costume plus a large sombrero preferably.  ::)

Here in Sunny España, we've had 30-ish degrees since I got here, and it's been fine (of course, having a swimming pool helps). Low 40s is typical for August here, it takes mid- to high-40s to be a heatwave. The worldwide weather on the TV has been showing between 39 and 41 for Austin, TX all week; and Kuwait was forecast to be 48 degrees today...

Sorry, I've no idea what any of those are in Farenheit...
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 06, 2009, 03:53:52 PM
A friend of mine just got back from Afghanistan where he suffered through 52 C temps.  He was reverse engineering IEDs.  Fortunately the bomb boys pull their teeth first :o
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 06, 2009, 04:16:03 PM
Goodwood was hot on Saturday , I know because I was there for the Festival of Speed. Biggest presence of F1 turbo cars were there since they were actually racing in the '80's , I was in heaven !
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 06, 2009, 04:31:15 PM
Quote from: compig on July 06, 2009, 04:16:03 PM
Goodwood was hot on Saturday , I know because I was there for the Festival of Speed. Biggest presence of F1 turbo cars were there since they were actually racing in the '80's , I was in heaven !

Nice! On Saturday, I was driving a Shelby Mustang around the Ascari race circuit :D Cracking stuff, but boy those brakes are lousy. Trying to persuade the owner to spend about $3000 on upgraded discs/calipers so it stops as well as it goes.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 06, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
Tell him to look on epay , there are often some trick 6 pots for pennies compared to new price.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 07, 2009, 11:52:37 AM
Quote from: compig on July 06, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
Tell him to look on epay , there are often some trick 6 pots for pennies compared to new price.

Hmmm... there's probably a reason for that.

IMHO, AP brakes are the way to go; but trying to find a set that'll fit in the standard wheels is proving......interesting.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 07, 2009, 12:10:17 PM
Don't worry about the quality , we're talking ex-Merc , Porsche , BMW , 6 pots etc etc !!  They are coming off cars from breakers etc. Friend of mine picked up a pair of Aston Martin 6 pots for 2 or £300 !!  They are now on his 600 BHP RX7 and have transformed the braking power ! 
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 07, 2009, 02:09:33 PM
what constitutes a heat wave?

for me it was living in wichita kansas in the summer of 1980

for 6 weeks in never dipped below 110F and never got lower than 99F for the overnight low

many days it was 112-114F

the shop i worked in, my bays were faceing the west, in the afternoon, with the sun coming in
it would go over 130F as measured by a thermometer on the shady side of my tool box

needless to say there were many most welcome water fights

you could go from soaking wet to dry as a tater chip in less than 10 minutes

i decided then and there i had no desire to go to hell!

btw, that was only about 5 years or so into the big scare of an iceage freezing the planet solid

ya right!

i don't think the impending doom of an iceage caught much traction after that summer

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Combustor on July 07, 2009, 04:22:09 PM
         Heatwave??  Right now it's mid winter (dry season) here in the North of West Australia. Glorious weather, 28c to 32c days and 10c to16c nights. WE don't look forward to  summer (wet season) November to March, when it's 42c to 47c all day with about 99% humidity and still 30c+ after midnight with the chance of a tropical
thunderstorm when not even the rain is cool! It is around then that you bless the inventor of air conditioning, and give thanks for the 8/1 Start-o-Matic in the shed ,
                                                                                                                                                                                               Regards,  Combustor.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 07, 2009, 04:56:23 PM
Now thats what I call a heatwave !!  Makes you wonder hows vehicles can survive in that temperature !!  What do oil grade do you use in cars there , SAE 50-70 ?!!!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 07, 2009, 05:38:28 PM
i had bought my first motorcycle that spring, a '76 harley wideglide
every noon we would all break for lunch, and there was one stop light that if you got caught
in it you had to sit there for about 5 minutes

you couldn't shut down the bikes, because they would vaporlock, so you let them sit and idle

every friggin time when the light turned green and i would crack the throttle, the relatively cold air/fuel mix
would hit the rear cylinder and pop the sparkplug internally

so i would go to lunch with a 2 cylinder, and return with a single cylinder harley

my god it was hot!

i remember sleeping at night, what little you could, and getting up ever hour to take a cold shower
and not even bother to towel off,, just hit the sheet wet
and lay there slowly steaming

we had one box fan, and it had to try to keep some air movement for us and our two young girls

and wouldn't you know it, one night a Tstorm blew in, and a bolt of lightening took that away from us too!

btw,, there were no box fans to be had in all of the midwest after the first day or so of that 6 week run of heat.

so we suffered another week, gave up our deposit on the rental, and moved to a much smaller place
that had airconditioning.

i don't ever wanna be that hot again, luckily i haven't had the displeasure.

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: ZackaryMac on July 08, 2009, 02:38:39 AM
It's supposed to go down to 7C tonight. In July. During the summer.

They claim 25C for the next few days. Our summers are short enough here, sure like to get SOMETHING before it turns cool again.

7C !   Pffftt!!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 08, 2009, 04:36:06 AM
Everyone.  I know that really hot days, and really cold days affect us all because they we remember them for a long time.  But please remember that what we are talking about when we do that is weather, NOT climate.

Weather is impossible to predict in any accurate way in the future.  I can't predict what the weather will be like on the afternoon of October 17th 2010 in Wichita Kansas, period.  What I can predict with nearly 100% accuracy is that the climate in December 2010 in Wichita will be much colder than the climate in July 2011 in Wichita.  That's because we have many many years of data that all show that to have been true in the past and will be true in the future.

The more historic data about the climate we have, the more accurate we can be about predicting it.  We have very accurate data about the relationship between C02 and heat going back hundreds of thousands of years in the form of ice cores from Greenland glaciers.  These ice cores contain pollen which tell us what plants were growing in the northern hemisphere, and bubbles of trapped air.  By analyzing the pollen to tell what plants they come from we can predict what the climatic temperatures were like. That same pollen can be carbon dated to tell us how long ago they were trapped there.   From the air bubbles sucked out of the ice we can find out the amount of C02 that was in the air at that time.

By analyzing thousands of such samples we have come up with some very accurate relationships.  During the ice ages, the c02 concentration in the air was around 200ppm.  This can only be attained by huge amounts of plant material pumping down the carbon from the air.  During the ice ages this probably was a combination of huge tropical forests in the tropics, and immense amounts of algae in the oceans.  Even today most of the life in the oceans is in the colder waters of the North and South.

By the 1800's the amount of C02 was increasing and due to our industrial revolution then, and the amount of ancient C02 we spew out from oil burning, now it's up to around 390 ppm

At the beginning of the 200,000 year hot period in the Eocene, the C02 ppm stood at 500.  We don't want that again.  Our civilization wouldn't be able to continue at those temperatures.  Oh, sure, some isolated groups of humans might be able to exist in the far north and maybe in Antarctica, but civilization as we know it, I think not.

The problem is that pesky 3 - 5 ppm C02 rise per year (and it's increasing).  The difficult thing to swallow is the notion of feedback.  As the Northern Ice melts, the darker water soaks up more sunshine in the summer resulting in long term climate change.  The tundra is melting spewing immense amounts of C02 into the air, creating more warmth and on and on.  The Boreal forest in Russia and Canada are increasing in size making more dark mass to soak up heat.  Large deposits of methane called clathrates are already starting to melt and release the gas which is 20x more potent that C02 etc. etc. etc.

The "tipping point" is just like a light switch.  When you turn it on, you can't stop at the exact point the light turns on, it has a spring in it that keeps it going with a snap.  The same thing is happening with our atmosphere.  Many believe we have gone past the tipping point and the whole thing is already turning itself on, and all we can do is hang on for dear life.

So, have a nice day everyone!  ;D
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 08, 2009, 05:00:13 AM
Stan:

thanks for the lesson in science history, or whatever you call it

my question comes down to this

prefaced on the fact that most of the global warming supporters are also earth first types

what we really have is an arguement about how hospitable a specific area is to mankind living there.

certainly this planet was doing just famously before mankind walked on it? and will be doing just fine once we
are all gone.

so what it comes down to with the bleeding heart earth first global warming supporters is really something less noble
all they really care about is whether or not they are going to be comfortable living where they choose to live.
they really could care the less about the planet one way or another as long as it doesn't effect their immediate sphere
or livelihood.

that is the part that makes me sick to my stomach, apart from those that choose to make millions or stand to make even more
by buying in and supporting claims that have faulty science behind them.

i will grant you we "may" be in a warming cycle, although there is strong evidence we are well into a cooling cycle, but
it is a cycle, and it cannot be supported that man has anything to do with it, however
there is much stronger evidence that the sun's cycles have much more dramatic effect on this rock

it only stands to reason

before man and oil there were times of much higher temps, more co2, and guess what
plants thrived

who was to blame for the higher temps and co2 levels?
dinosaurs belching or farting???
algae giving off CO2?
if so what stopped that cycle? 

must have been a sweet smelling place!

there is mounting evidence that this global warming thing has ran its course and we are definetly in a cooling cycle
all the while man is burning more coal and oil than ever,, if man is responsible for global warming we should certainly
be warming and not cooling.

after all it is reported that china is bringing on one new coal fired powerplant each week, and you can bet there are
no scrubbers, or cat converters either,, just mountains of smoke and CO/CO2

Stan, please step away from the koolaid!!

:)

bob g

Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 08, 2009, 07:05:01 AM
This argument is such a non-argument in my opinion.

The two minute analysis boils down to this:

If the globe is in fact warming due to human impact, and we choose to do nothing, we are toast as a species (might be anyway).

If the globe is warming due to human impact, and we choose to minimize said impact, then perhaps we stand a chance at reversing the process and the human species likely survives.

If the global warming concept is wrong and the globe is not warming, and we take measures to minimize human impact, nothing lost from a species preservation standpoint and human species continues to survive.

If the globe is in fact cooling and we incorrectly choose to minimize our impact because we still think it's warming, nothing lost from a species preservation standpoint and the human species continues to survive.

I would submit that only a fool would choose to do nothing while endlessly debating and pointing fingers.

Is that a risk you are willing to take?

In my humble opinion, it's simply not worth the risk to sit back and do nothing.

If the whole global warming concept is a bunch of bunk and we minimize our impact anyway, I don't see it as a big deal.

Now, on the other hand, if global warming is real, and we choose to do nothing, the result will likely be catastrophic.

Doesn't seem like much of a choice from where I sit.

Steve
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 08, 2009, 08:10:41 AM
Steve:

well to boil it down a bit further

"it depends on what we as a population are willing to do about it, or rather what are we
willing to live without, just in case this is man made?"

if it means particulate control on smoke stacks, fine !!
i don't think you will find many that will argue against that

if it means making and effort to use AE where it is reasonable to do so, fine!
not many against that either...

however

if it means i have to submit to some beurocrat telling me that i cannot build a house the way i see fit
without the states blessing, and build it to california codes, and submit to energy audits, and get energy star
ratings and all that bullshit, then i say screw you and the horse you road in on.

because that is what you will be using for transportation

i don't believe we should go around crapping in our nest, and we should make every effort to keep things
as clean as we can, but
we don't take draconian measures based on incomplete or faulty science, most especially when the rest of the
developing world has said screw that and will do as they please, and when we are in an economic crisis

to do so will only hasten our demise into being a 2nd world country, if not a 3rd.

i dunno, maybe i am getting too friggin old, but i still remember the 70's where we were all going to freeze to death
in an impending iceage. listen to them and you would be out sprinkling carbon all over everything white and every reflective surface.

all i am saying is, we don't have anywhere near enough data to form any real conclusions
and to think we as part of this system have any control over it is the epitome of arrogance in my opinion

the only way we are going to screw up this planet on a global scale is if we light off every nuke in the arsenals

even then it is likely that 50 years later the planet will be green again, plants and animals will flourish, and maybe
there will be a few of our species to start all over again.

those that survive will not be the tree huggers, bug lovers,or burkenstock wearers

all this stress and freaking out the public about global warming is nothing more than chicken little and the sky is
falling, playing to an unthinking public that is easily convinced of an impending doom and that which can be parted
with their dollars.

for godsakes this is algore's baby, doesn't anyone see a credibility problem here?

oh ya, i forgot he invented the internet!

i guess that makes him a global climate expert?  afterall he got the nobel prize? so it has to be fact right?

good lord, have we as a people become so gullible?

i sure am glad i am on the downhill side of this journey, and not just starting out in my early 20's
i feel sorry for the younger folks that are never going to know what we have lost.

if this cap and trade/tax thing passes and they inflict this national california standards on all new construction
you guys will probably hear about some crazy old bastard that went down in a hail of gunfire as they burn me out
of my non conforming structure.

because i will build it and it will be built to my standards, and they can kiss my sagging old ass.

btw, as a parting shot
check out scientific american, they have ran a few articles on the global warming thing, and how it isn't happening
based on several hundreds of ocean temp sensors placed all over the planet

they site work form hundreds of research centers, that have tried in vain to get the word out, but
can't be heard because there is no money in it.

all the money has been placed "all in" with the global warming scam.

its late, i am tired, it is july and i am freezing my ass off here in tacoma,, guess i will go
throw another tire on the fire and go to bed.

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 08, 2009, 11:21:13 AM
One of the problems with this whole issue is public perception. Climate fluctuation's are not on a human lifetime scale , so comparing weather now with that from any earlier era within living memory is not relevant. These events take hundreds if not thousands of years to propagate. So , the general population on which political will and action depend and who are predominately ignorant of even the basic science , cannot rationalise massive changes in socio economic policy when they just simply look at the year on year evidence.

Even the science community itself struggles to develop a meaningful model on which to base any political policy.

One interesting thing I saw was one of the consequences of all air traffic being grounded after 911. Daylight recorded at ground level in the USA increased noticeably. This led to the theory of 'Global Dimming'  caused by emissions from commercial aviation in the high atmosphere. This is an alternative postulation for the trapping of heat in the Earths atmosphere.

Really , does the human species have any chance of ascertaining what is actually happening , if in fact anything is , and if it is resolving itself into a global solution if in fact there is anything we can do about it ??!!

I suppose on a personal level we can all decide our action. We Lister users are making a valid effort to reduce our individual pollution but that is of minuscule consequence in the big picture.
Even if the major developed nations transformed their energy policies within a few years the developing nations which just happen to be the area's of largest human population just don't give a dump !  They just want their piece of the dream pie !
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 08, 2009, 02:43:02 PM
Now bob g,

It's 6:30 AM in Renton and it's about 55 degrees.  Is that really so revealing?  I wonder how much the climate changed during the life of Methuselah - 969 years?

Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 08, 2009, 02:59:55 PM
Or the big droughts in the Mid West dust bowl of the '30's was it ?
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Combustor on July 08, 2009, 03:32:44 PM
Hello Compiq,
                 Re your query regarding oil grades etc. in the hot tropics, most engines cope fine as long as their cooling systems have adequate capacity.
Engines are thus maintained at thermostat controlled temperatures so regular oils such as 15W/40 are fine. Many aircooled diesels are OK as long as they are kept
clean and not overloaded. Auto aircon systems are a whole different story as many were never made to cope with this climate. Just buy a Toyota Landcruiser
and it will handle any climate OK. Regards,  Combustor.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 08, 2009, 03:49:25 PM
My knowledge tells me that's how it is but somehow it just seems impossible !  Even my humble , decade old , Citroen HDI daily driver shrugged off the recent 32 Deg C temps we've had in the UK recently , the only thing different was that the fans cycled more frequently in traffic !!  Aircooled motorcycles are a different deal though. I know Penrite marketed an SAE 50w70 lube for Harley's used in the Oz climate !!  But of course aircooled bikes rely on the oil to do far more cooling than a liquid cooled motor.
Land Cruisers will indeed cope with anything !!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 08, 2009, 07:54:01 PM
GOOD NEWS!  GOOD NEWS!  GOOD NEWS!

The climate is coming but won't make any big impact until after we're all dead.

Just call me Good News Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 08, 2009, 10:50:23 PM
Actually Bob, the bleeding hearts and the tree huggers are (perhaps unintentionally but non the less) are hurting the situation by their rabid, mouth frothing insistence that nuclear power is bad.  Quite the contrary, some of the newer, smaller designs of the rapid breeder reactors are essentially the only things that might preserve a semblance of our civilization as we know it.

They are much more efficient at converting fissionable material into power, on the order of 90+%.  They produce very little radioactive waste, however that waste is very very radioactive, enough so that terrorists couldn't ever use any of it to harm us because it would kill them first.  The radioactive waste is also relatively short lived so it could be encased in glass and dumped in the ocean and it would be non radioactive before the glass deteriorated.

They are cheap to produce, and very very safe.  The only thing that is keeping the world from developing them is the political will of the leaders.  Most uninformed citizens have grown up hearing about unsafe Chernoble type reactors poisoning the earth for millions of years, and maybe if we let the Russians build them they will.  However they can be built and operated safely.
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Grael on July 10, 2009, 04:12:11 AM
Quote from: LowGear on July 08, 2009, 07:54:01 PM
GOOD NEWS!  GOOD NEWS!  GOOD NEWS!

The climate is coming but won't make any big impact until after we're all dead.

Just call me Good News Casey


Works great for you older folk. I, on the other hand... :-\
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 10, 2009, 04:31:41 AM
Don't worry, you won't be alone in facing the music.  I guess I should have made it more clear.  It isn't the freaky weather caused by global warning that we have to worry about, however that will be a concern.  It's you and me!

I mean people worldwide, of course. Politics!  If anyone thinks the Pakistan government (a nuclear power of course) is going to sit there and let many of it's people die of starvation while India takes most of it's water away from it after 4 or 5 years of permanent drought, think again.

If anyone thinks the USA is going to get off scott free when 6 or 7 million Mexican people who are starving to death because they haven't had any rain for 5 years decide they have to crash the fence and cross the Rio Grande, and women and children get machine gunned by (servo controlled weapons) to death on world wide viewed webcams, think again.  There are, what(?) several million people of Mexican descent already bona fide American citizens who aren't going to put up with that crap!  The US civil war was fought over less.

If anyone thinks that China is going to let millions starve to death while Russia continues to hold on to it's territory (Siberia) that China has always maintained belongs to it, they're crazy and will probably get a really good dose of radioactive fallout to boot.

It just goes on and on and on.

Read "Climate Wars" by Gwynn Dyer.  It's an eye opener.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Grael on July 10, 2009, 05:18:11 AM
I got to check out that book next time I'm near a book store.

*mental note* Start stock piling fuel, food and ammunition.  ;)
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on July 10, 2009, 05:54:25 AM
I don't really like Gwynn Dyer.  :P
I guess as a brain washed American, I think he's biased, in an unhealthy way. Although I do read up on his site periodically.
However, I do believe that wasting money on excess homeland security directed at the citizens; and phoney enviromental laws that add up to people control of mobility and choice, well, nothing good can come from it. So NO, I don't agree that persuing an envoronmental adjenda is no harm if it is not valid. And it's not valid.
The CO2 cycle follows global warming by about 800 years. It's not a trend indicator, it's an artifact. It's also not a pollutant, try living without it!
This is just a tax ruse, brought to you by your UN and gov't treaties.
I just heard the biggest one yet: Nitrogenated fuel! The new green fuel. What crock! How can an innert gas that makes up 70% of our atmosphere be a power constituent of a fuel?
I swear our culture is being turned upside down. Slutty girls are good. Morals are bad. Spending is good. Savings are bad. Screaching hate into a microphone is good entertainment. Music and songs of familiy values are sooo yesterday. We're so bad we don't deserve to live.
Wait! maybe we are being inundated by a media blitz to accept the absurd. To reduce the US (heck, all of us) to the point where a One World Dictatorship sounds like a good idea? Why else would the US & Britian debauche our currencies to nothingness?
I live as clean as I can. I believe in Good Stewardship. I don't believe in anthropogenic global warming. I have property close to Mt St. Hellens. I flew over it many times between and after it's major eruptions. Humans are pikers. Pseudo scientists that tell you people pollute more than volcanoes are trading on your ignorance. Mt. St. Hellens was a piker compare to Mt Pinotoba (sp?). Yet it was beyond AWSOME! It still emits 2/3 of Washington States sulfer dioxide emissions and it's been pretty quite for years now.
Pollution control is worthy on it's own merit. It's a good goal and good economics too, but it does not need multiple super gov't organizations plus the UN and a carbon trading scheme that could only be thought up by a criminal mind. buying, selling and trading pollution based on arbitrary quotas and estimated values that can't be apealed is the kind of thing you'd expect from the mafia.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 10, 2009, 08:02:57 AM
Wait....

What if I LIKE slutty girls?

  ;)

I want to be very clear, that I also don't want the govt footprint in my life. 

You want to REALLY get me riled, let's talk low VOC auto paint and what a freakin misguided fiasco that is!!!!!!

My point was simply that I do think it's important to raise awareness and make changes that force humans to clean up our act.  As the world's top consumer of energy, it would make sense that the US start paying attention to the nest, and the damage being done.

I think there are HUGE opportunities in cleanly manufactured and ultra energy efficient products.  I also think the third world is going to be forced to get on the bandwagon because energy is only going to continue to get more expensive, and the costs will force the changes.

Not everything is about money, but unfortunately, it seems that way here in America.  There is little to no value placed on living a good life, running a clean business, or minimizing one's environmental footprint.  I also believe it will be America's ultimate undoing because I believe people are getting mighty tired of feeling like hamsters on a wheel.  (I know I am)  I think we are going to see a revolt and a transition back to a simpler way of doing things.

The thing that make me most angry about the climate talk is disparity between us individuals having the screws put to us, because they can, vs big business being allowed to continue screwing around without making serious changes.  We as individuals aren't organized and don't have lobbyists looking out for our interests, so we are the easy targets.

No long ago I visited Chicago and drove around the bottom of the Lake Michigan to where the steel industry is...  Flat out PATHETIC that they haven't been forced to clean up their act.  Yeah, it costs money, but the bottom line is it should have been being done all along.  That area is horribly polluted and the air is unfit to breathe...  Made me sick that they are still allowed to pollute like they are...  It is simply ridiculous!

I do think Bob and I are on the same page to a point.  However, the difference is I don't believe people will do the right thing without having some rules to follow.  I'm not talking having big brother breathing down our necks, just rules that make sense and are UNIFORMLY enforced.

I do disagree with the notion that because the third world isn't cleaning up their act that we shouldn't bother.  I completely disagree with that philosophy.  I would submit that we could lead by example and develop super energy efficient products then export that technology worldwide.

I've also witnessed enough businesses that fought the "green" concept tooth and nail, heels dragging the whole way, who then figured out they were more profitable once they cleaned up their act.  Yeah, some of them were forced.  But even then, it was very eye opening to hear owners that fought it admit that that they were more profitable and it wasn't so bad after all.  I didn't just witness it once, but many times over.  It pretty much completely pulled the teeth of the "it's going to ruin us" crowd and turned some of the biggest skeptics into the biggest supporters.

That having been said, I'll be right next to Bob when the try to impose an airtight house on me, tell me my Lister is too dirty, tell me that I can't paint my projects without a licensed spray booth, or demand that I start wearing a mask while sleeping to cut my personal CO2 emissions...

I've gone back and forth on this issue within myself for years.  I grew up in Los Angeles and remember driving a truck in downtown LA, sitting in traffic and not being able to read the freeway sign 30 yards in front of me due to smog.  I remember spending weeks in summer not able to take a deep breath because I'd be coughing it all out for the next minute due to the smog...  It's not like that anymore.  Even with more cars and more people, it's not even remotely close to what it used to be like...  So, as much as I HATE the Calif Air Resources Board, I begrudgingly do have to admit what they've been doing all these years is working.

That having been said, I think forcing manufacturers to put catalytic converters on all new lawnmowers is a bit overkill....  On the other hand, based on the air quality, what they've done thus far is working...

Hence, the internal argument...

Bottom line is there just needs to be balance.

I see no argument that justifies continuing to be the world's top energy consumer without regard to the environmental costs or resulting degradation, especially when the technology already exists to improve the situation.

I fail to understand how conserving natural resources and cleaning up the environment could not possibly be beneficial to the country in the long run.

How to best accomplish it or raise awareness?  I don't know...  I just know that we need to start moving in that direction one way or another... 

Whether cap and trade works or it doesn't, it's raising awareness and that is good.  The problem is, it allows industry, who are the biggest polluters, to just continue business as usual because they've "traded" and that pisses me off...

Bottom line is, if we don't get our collective act together soon, climate change, pollution, overpopulation, sickness, etc are going to become the limiting factors, and we won't have any choice as a species once that starts to happen.

Hence why I think it might be better to be proactive rather than reactive.

And no, I won't be burning tires in my yard anytime soon.

Steve

Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on July 12, 2009, 12:41:37 AM
Well I see your point and generally agree.
 Iceland uses Geothermal energy, and the nation would have gone bankrupt during last year's oil price gouge, except that they had their own energy for stationary use. Vehicle fuel was a problem, but keeping the house warm and the lights on is pretty important in Iceland, and they had that covered.
What gets me peeved is that Washington State is sitting on a very generous Geothermal 'reservation', and as of yesterday, there are NO PLANS to build a geothermal power plant, and No State Laws or guidelines to even start the process!
There are some notable geothermal plants in the US. We rate on the list of major geothermal wattage in the world, it's just that our needs are so high that the % generated by geothermal is pitifully small. That Tarp 'bailout' money didn't seem to go in the right direction. Capitalizing this kind of infrastructure in today's pre-hyperinflation dollars would be less damaging than starting it later.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 12, 2009, 03:01:50 AM
Our local utility manager, Hawaiian Electrical Company (HELCO) - a privately held corporation, buys a few percent of their electrical energy from a local geothermal company.  The company could supply twice as much but the infrastructure isn’t sufficient to deliver it to the island grid.  HELCO pays the same for geothermal as for diesel generated electricity – a state law that should encourage the development of locally produced electricity.  But HELCO won’t spend the money on infrastructure as they don’t see any advantage to them.  This book should be titled When Capitalistic Driven Marketism Fails the People.

Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: panaceabeachbum on July 13, 2009, 02:15:04 AM
its been 95-102f at 80% humidity for a couple of weeks here , a little cooler than the last few years .

Reading back thru some of the post in this thread , wouldnt it make you kind of a weenie to post how bad global warming is on a furum that revolves around oilburners??  In my opinion its the sun that has the greatest impact on or global temp , not humans . Mars has the same highs and lows as earth and no humans there
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 13, 2009, 03:14:20 PM
You are right in thinking that the sun is indeed heating up.  As a matter of fact, it has been for a couple of billion years.  It will surely enter a phase in which it will become uninhabitable on the earth, in about 2 - 3 billion years. 

I'm personally not too worried about that, I'm just worried about how the Chinese and the Russians are going to take it when most of Southern China becomes too difficult to live in due to the immense changes already evident in the monsoon circulation, and Northern China which now produces most of their food, becomes too dry for agriculture.  This is happening now!  One of these days the Chinese are going to politely ask the Russians for Siberia back, and the Russians are most certainly going to say no. It's what happens next that I'm worried about.

We aren't talking about this scenario playing out in a billion years either, more likely within the next 20 years.
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 13, 2009, 05:14:19 PM
Quote from: LowGear on July 12, 2009, 03:01:50 AM

But HELCO won’t spend the money on infrastructure as they don’t see any advantage to them.  This book should be titled When Capitalistic Driven Marketism Fails the People.


Of course... the beauty of capitalism is that there's nothing stopping you (and perhaps a few buddies) from setting your own Competitor Electric Co up...

If you can generate enough electricity cheaply enough, and grab/distribute to enough customers, you'll force HELCO to either close up, buy you out, or reform to stay in business...

I'm not sure what the situation is with your transmission network; if it's like it is in the UK, then it's either owned by HELCO or some kind of holding company - either way, you'd probably need to make your own network...
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 13, 2009, 05:42:18 PM
In practice it's never gonna happen though.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 14, 2009, 06:30:35 AM
Hi Adev,

I think Sarah Palin is looking for a campaign manager.  This is the kind of brain storming that she can sink her teeth in.  Capitalism isn't the only cure-all answer.  Why don't you set up a new petrol company and get the cost of petrol down to $1 USD per liter like it is here.  Of course, we rely on an oligarchy based petroleum industry but it's still under a buck a liter.  Or how about returning the health care program to the capitalistic insurance providers (insurance is really just socialized capitalism)?

Cheers,

Low Gear
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 14, 2009, 03:31:49 PM
Quote from: LowGear on July 14, 2009, 06:30:35 AM

I think Sarah Palin is looking for a campaign manager.  This is the kind of brain storming that she can sink her teeth in.  Capitalism isn't the only cure-all answer. 


I would agree that capitalism isn't the whole answer, but of all the systems that have been tried in the world so far, it's the "least worst", that I am aware of.

Quote

Why don't you set up a new petrol company and get the cost of petrol down to $1 USD per liter like it is here.  Of course, we rely on an oligarchy based petroleum industry but it's still under a buck a liter.  Or how about returning the health care program to the capitalistic insurance providers (insurance is really just socialized capitalism)?


It's actually genuinely impossible to sell petrol or diesel in the UK for less than $1 (about 60p)/litre. Not because of the capitalist system... but because of the taxes imposed by a socialist government. If tax were abolished on fuel, prices would drop to less than $1 litre.

Health care is a thorny issue in the UK - we have a socialist-inspired taxpayer-funded "we'll look after you (badly) no matter what you've got, unless it's TOO expensive to buy medicine for it" - although moves are afoot to add ", or you've ever smoked, drunk alcohol or been fat" to that caveat.

The US system isn't the answer either.

Of course, one option is to simply totally deregulate medical care, rather like it was prior to the 20th century (only with better medicine).

Another option is an (optional) private healthcare scheme, which you pay into much like your pension. The Swiss have one of those, I believe.

This blogger post (http://devilskitchen.me.uk/2008/06/break-out-more-party-poppers-for-wonder.html), whilst not strictly on the same subject as this post, nevertheless makes some good points in a better way than I could manage. Don't click on it if you're offended by swearing, however.... it's a very sweary webpage...
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 15, 2009, 01:33:12 AM
Actually here in Canada, as you all know we have a lot of oil reserves, both traditional and trapped in tar sands, and natural gas.  We also have a lot of taxes on the refined products.  HOWEVER, the oil companies receive billions in tax relief, outright cash grants for exploration, pipeline tax grants, maintenance tax relief, super low export taxes, nonexistent import duties on equipment and supplies etc. etc. etc.

All of the money we pay in taxes at the pumps go straight to the oil companies.  What do you call that?
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: ZackaryMac on July 15, 2009, 02:24:33 AM
Doesn't make much sense does it.

Here in Nova Scotia we were promised cheap natural gas if they were to pipe it from off Sable Island, and sell it to the US.
Turns out it was going to cost too much to provide it to most of us (as promised), so they didn't do it.
I use wood for heat, and even that is getting hard to find around here, as most of it is being chipped and sent overseas. I will burn old tires in my furnace before I take the wood furnace out and put in an oil furnace (or propane or electric, etc), I will not be forced to heat my home with a method I cannot afford.

See? Things are just as screwed at this end of the country, Stan.  :D
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 15, 2009, 04:11:00 AM
Ah well, time to buy land in the N.W.Territories I guess.  ;)
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on July 15, 2009, 04:37:26 AM
Gee Stan, Isn't that the site of one of the planned North American Biospheres, where no human is supposed to live?  ;)
  My neice married a guy from Tiawan (Steve). They went to Tiawan for the honeymoon. Lots of pictures, and all very good. You could get a grasp of how people live as well as the sights.
I asked him how the apartment blocks were heated, as I didn't see any sign of it. He said they aren't. My sister in law couldn't believe it. So I naturally pressed the point, "what do you do in the winter?". Well, it's near the equator, but sometimes it does get real cold. We just put on more clothes and that's it.
I wouldn't want to do that in Western Washington. But I suppose we will all be setting our thermostats down to about 40 F (That's about 5 C ?) when hyperinflation and Cap & Trade's full efects are felt. Don't think it wouldn't be that way; I went to our family reunion in LaGrande Oregon last year. After visiting with my great aunts & uncles (whio are dying off) We settled in with my contemporaries. They were discussing the 1950s there, with wood heat, cars with 6v batteries and cold winters. When you split wood by hand, you don't put so much in the stove. Every house had a big shelf full of quilts. When friends or relatives dropped by, they got handed a quilt so they could stay warm during the visit.
Even a well tuned Lister(oid) won't be much use if all heat sources are controlled or scarce. We can't burn our fireplaces on assigned days, and we can only use approved fuel in our cars with the proper dies. In fact, we can only use approved wood in our fireplaces, no plywood, nothing painted etc.
Economists are saying that the 'stimulus' didn't work, and things will get worse before they get better. Whether by privation or government control, your options are about to be limited.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 15, 2009, 05:10:35 AM
boy that Zach fellow is my kinda guy!

"i will burn old tires..."

:)

i remember a time when i was about 5, we lived in a house that was heated by a single potbelly stove
only had cold running water, and an outhouse down the lane a fair piece for a little tyke in the snow.

you know, i don't remember ever being cold, although i am sure it was cold as boobs in a brass bra
(after all that was in the years leading up to global cooling)

we wore more sweaters, flannel, hats,  and stayed busy
and piled on the blankets at night.

funny i don't remember anyone freezing to death,

the way things are going, i better follow in the footsteps of my dad
and go to making quilts!

he makes quilts all winter while it is too cold to go build stuff in his shop.

i suspect the average diy'er is going to fair just fine, if not grumpily

there is going to be one hell of a bunch of folks that are going to burn obama at the stake
though when they find they cannot stay warm in their McMansions without going broke.

btw, i  remember dad being stingey with the split wood as well, probably because a 5 yo was no
help when it came to splitting anything

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 15, 2009, 01:21:39 PM
Quote from: Stan on July 15, 2009, 01:33:12 AM
Actually here in Canada, as you all know we have a lot of oil reserves, both traditional and trapped in tar sands, and natural gas.  We also have a lot of taxes on the refined products.  HOWEVER, the oil companies receive billions in tax relief, outright cash grants for exploration, pipeline tax grants, maintenance tax relief, super low export taxes, nonexistent import duties on equipment and supplies etc. etc. etc.

All of the money we pay in taxes at the pumps go straight to the oil companies.  What do you call that?
Stan

Interesting.... so it turns out that sub-$1 gas is not a result of "pure" capitalism, but taxation-supported "capitalism".


Governments, honestly, who f***ing needs them?
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 15, 2009, 02:31:43 PM
Well , you can't expect any self respecting government to miss an opportunity to tax an essential commodity to a level that keeps them in the style to which they wish to permanently enjoy despite the impoverishment that the population has to suffer as a consequence !  Funny how capitalism and communism seem to have converged over the last 25 years !
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 15, 2009, 03:24:10 PM
I remember a conversation with a gal friend of ours who is a rabid left wing socialist (which I'm not by the way) and I told her I thought it might be a good idea to abolish all government and all laws.  She froze for a moment and then said but thats anarchy.  I told her I was a pretty big guy, a very good shot and that after a few days of chaos that things would settle out pretty well for me and my family and the rest of the world around me could either accept me and my way of doing things or I would help them go to hell.  She hasn't spoken to me since.  (thank god  ;D)
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 15, 2009, 03:26:33 PM
Seems we share philosophies there Stan !!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 15, 2009, 07:16:29 PM
you go Stan!

i will take back half the ugly things i was thinking about you!!!  :)


lmao

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 16, 2009, 01:50:22 AM
Tnx guys... ::)   The real problem with governments is that they say they want to do good for the people, but then when you can do good yourself, its usually forbidden by the government.  Case in point.  A guy in BC was running around scamming elderly folks by promising to put siding on their houses.  He'd start, then demand more money and then clear out.  He kept changing his company name so no one could catch up with him to charge him.  Someone's son caught up with him and broke his arm and a couple of his legs.  He (the son) went to jail and the guy is sueing him for lost income?????

I wouldn't mind big government saying they would protect me and my family, but when they won't, and then when you try to do it yourself and they throw you in jail, I wish they would just go away.

I don't like anybody scamming me or my family, whether it s the government, GM, or any other organization or person.  I'm perfectly willing and able to protect myself, if other people (or governments) would just keep out of it and mind their own business.
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 16, 2009, 03:33:05 AM
damn Stan,, you are making real progress here!!!

now all we gotta do is get you to believe "global warming" is a government conspiracy!

:)

or at least get you to thinking that it is at least plausible?

ok, i take back 75% of the ugly things i thought about you

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: oliver90owner on July 16, 2009, 07:49:42 AM
and a couple of his legs

Stan,

How many legs did he have?

I thought snakes didn't have any!!

Laws are getting like that in the UK.  If a burglar cut himself while breaking a window to gain entry he would probably consult a lawyer.  Probably use the police DNA register to prove the case!

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 16, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
seems we saw in the news over here about a fella in england who upon having his life threatened by
a burglar shot the crook and was sent to prison for doing so because he had an illegal gun.

insanity !!!

what i figure has happened to us collectively:

back in the 60's there was this hippy movement most of which were liberally educated by the best and most brilliant
communist/socialist/anarchist minds of the day, and were fully indoctrinated.

they were a stinking,dirty bunch of misfits, social rejects

somewhere along the way, they figured "hey if i take a bath, get a haircut, shave my face i will look mainstream"

so they did, and the moved into society, but they never let go of their twisted belief system

they moved into positions of power, education, the courts and of course politics (al franken is the most current example), media,
hollywood (which has always attracted the leftist) etc.

while the rest of us have been working on raising families, they worked on damaging our children and honing their belief system
to a very fine edge.

now 45-50 years later they run everything, and whats worse they convinced huge numbers of us the populace to vote them into power.

it is said that if you don't appreciate history you are doomed to repeat it, problem is these folks are students of history and know from experience how to manipulate the masses.

obama is not a singular problem but more of a "work" product of the socialist underground that made him and now control him.
he is the figure head, the front man or pitchman so to speak.  The powers that made obama, have made other obama's of every ethnic
background known to man, they simply pulled the one that could be elected out of the lineup. if it had not been him i am convinced
they likely would have had another spit polished and programmed unit to do the job.

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 16, 2009, 03:48:20 PM
So how did you guys end up with George W for 8 years???
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 16, 2009, 04:16:52 PM
Hi Stan,

We were damn lucky to have "W".  He was none of the disgusting crew that mobile_bob described.  His daddy carried him all the way.  No social eletisit edjumacation, no welfare, no stinking liberalism like 40 hour weeks, health insurance, no social security pumping lefies but rather just simple new money acquired through government empowerment. 

But wait, didn’t Obama mostly attend private schools?  Doesn’t Obama take pretty good care of his family?  Wasn’t Obama born after the hippy movement and raised by his homeland Kansas grandparents that would be older than mobile_bob? 

Sarah will return!  We can stop progress at the federal level!  “I have resigned so that Alaska can again progress.”  How did she get through colleges?  And the grace and dignity of Franken’s opponent is beyond words.  (I’m a little concerned about Franken’s IQ as well but know nothing about him except in a monolog situation he can be pretty funny.  Reciting the facts can have that power.)

Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 16, 2009, 04:38:49 PM
Quote from: mobile_bob on July 16, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
seems we saw in the news over here about a fella in england who upon having his life threatened by
a burglar shot the crook and was sent to prison for doing so because he had an illegal gun.



It was even more ridiculous than that !!!  He had been repeatedly burgled by the same hoodlum family over a period of some years. He was a reclusive type guy and lived on his own. He had never managed to catch them in the act but on this occasion he did. He shot the culprit in self defense. There was massive public support for his actions and outcry when he was convicted. The most outrageous thing was when the criminals family sued him for damages !!!

Since then the law has changed slightly but you are still on precarious ground using force to defend yourself , family or property. How our judicial system arrived at this situation defies any logic.
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mactoollover2005 on July 16, 2009, 05:33:49 PM
Howdy Folks
    All i can say is that when there is forest fire out of control people are warned of said fire,some people prepare and pack and get out of its way,some stay and do nothing and then there are the ones who look at the sky and say your full of it because i cant see any flames. Every one views life in there own way and have there own levels of edumacation, some with 20 yrs of university and more degrees than drops of water in a barrell but still dumber than whale snot. Others never made it to grade 12 but dont need to be hit on the head to see what a forest fire can do to them and their families. most people are in between these levels,some smart and some not so smart but still can see the writing on the wall. Some need to be personnally see the changes torealize that we may be in deep shiate  and some will never see the danger no matter how you present the truth to them because they cant or wont grasp the truth.Sooner or later most people will realize that hey!!!!! Ice in the arctic and AntArctic is melting and the water levels are slowly rising and the world temp is going up and the weather patterns are changeing,,,

just wonder how long it will take and will it be too late to do anything for our one and only life supporting planet?????

just my 3 cents worth.
Derek
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 16, 2009, 06:53:55 PM
all this same rhetoric was used back in the 70's with global cooling
and it was said anyone that didn't believe in global cooling was basically an idiot
all sort of scientist jumped on the GC bandwagon and i too as a younger fella fell in with
all the hype... the sky was falling!

once bitten twice shy!

this whole GW crap has become a multi billion dollar game soon to become a multi trillion dollar game
and there are those sitting in control skimming off the cream as it passes by them.

as grandma used to say

"maybe so but i kinda F#$@ing doubt it"

(ok it wasn't my grandma)

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 16, 2009, 07:02:54 PM
Remember mactoollover2005,

If the average temperature goes up by say 15 degrees the planet will support life.  Human life?  Maybe not.  Perhaps the planet is just starting to rid itself of a self destructive parasite?  Remember the good news - We'll all be dead before the answer is even remotely near.  Do you suppose it's as dangerous as Y2K! 

Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 16, 2009, 11:21:15 PM
Has anybody heard of a Canfield Ocean?  Now that would really suck!  ???

How long can you hold your breath?
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on July 17, 2009, 12:33:58 AM
"The Canfield ocean, a sulfidic partially oxic ocean existing between the Archean and Ediacaran periods"
I doubt that was man made. Also, that brings about a point, of evolution. As the Earth evolves, things by definition do not remain the same. Global Warming hysteria makes us afraid and feeling guilty about things that are beyond our control.
I seem to recall an ex-wife that used similar tactics. In fact, having been married to her sorry a** taught me a lot and led to several promotions at work. Knowing how to deal with a phsycopathic liar with an anger management problem can be a real career benefit.
Makes some of our more self serving politicians a bit transparent.  ::)
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mobile_bob on July 17, 2009, 12:58:19 AM
amen to that Scott:

my ex had me so convinced that everything was my fault, so much so that if i were still married to her
i would feel as though i was soley responsible for GW!

pycho/anger managment/addictive personality, borderline personality, OCD, you name it she had it

and i believed it was all me for 20 plus years

funny thing, i have been remarried now for 5 years, and to date i have yet to have my first fight with this woman!
(knock on wood)

so yes, i am a bit tired of being the blame for all that is wrong in this world just because some lunatic/politician tells me i am.

lol

all i can say is Tipper Gore must be one hell of a woman to put up with Al's pompous ass.

anyway, i can certainly relate, and i think you have it narrowed right down
after 20 odd years with a nutcase, you get to where you just know when you are being shoveled bullcrap.

if it looks like bullcrap, smells like bullcrap,,, i don't have to taste it to just accept that it is truely bullcrap.

btw GW=bullcrap
just in case anyone wondered what side i stand on!

 :D

bob g
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 17, 2009, 01:34:39 AM
Nope, no one is saying we are going to cause a canfield ocean, nor did we cause one 100 million years ago  ;)  however there is a link between 1000ppm C02 and canfield oceans.  I figure severe prolonged (thousands of years) of intense volcanic eruptions (see Siberian Traps and Deccan Traps) produced those levels, however we are producing much higher (3ppm/year) levels than the end-Permian or end-Cretaceious extinction eras.

I've ordered Ward's book "Under a Green Sky".  It should be good reading.
Stan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 17, 2009, 10:52:40 AM
The real problem with "global warming" - or "man-made climate change" as it is now, to reflect the fact that sometimes the earth cools  ::) - is that it is promoted as a religion. "Unbelievers" are considered heretics. They're even talking about making "climate change denial" illegal, like holocaust denial already is in much of Europe (& the US I believe).

The trouble is, unlike the holocaust, there's no direct evidence of man-made climate change... instead, we have to rely on esoteric "indicators" like tree-ring widths (as we know, trees grow in direct proportion to temperature ??? nothing to do with rainfall, then ::)), ice-cores (great for long-term precasts, but no use for recent data, i.e. industrial revolution onwards), etc.

Oh, and don't quote the surface station temps either; the number of actual surface stations have been dropping precipitously since the late C20th, and somehow this is supposed to give more accurate temperatures? There's also many anomolies in the dataset which tend to reduce confidence in the results.

Of course, there IS something happening.... the increasing Arctic Circle ice melts, the forest infestations which Stan has pointed out in the past, and so on. The question is: Is this caused by mankind's CO2 emissions, or something else? I have to say, the odds are seriously stacked on "something else", but we're all paying the CO2 price - and the price will do nothing but rise.

After all, as any fule knos, more taxes are always the solution to the problem.  ::)
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mkdutchman on July 17, 2009, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: LowGear on July 16, 2009, 04:16:52 PM
Hi Stan,

We were damn lucky to have "W".  He was none of the disgusting crew that mobile_bob described.  His daddy carried him all the way.  No social eletisit edjumacation, no welfare, no stinking liberalism like 40 hour weeks, health insurance, no social security pumping lefies but rather just simple new money acquired through government empowerment. 

Ah, but just think where we would be if the great pompus global warming prophet would have won.

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But wait, didn’t Obama mostly attend private schools?  Doesn’t Obama take pretty good care of his family?  Wasn’t Obama born after the hippy movement and raised by his homeland Kansas grandparents that would be older than mobile_bob? 

oh yes he attended the Ivy League, that great intellectual black hole of thought, too bad they don't teach reality there. And was raised in.......Kenya?

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Sarah will return!
The liberals realize this very well and fear her.....witness the vitriol still thrown at her on a weekly basis.....

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We can stop progress at the federal level!“I have resigned so that Alaska can again progress.”  How did she get through colleges?  And the grace and dignity of Franken’s opponent is beyond words.  (I’m a little concerned about Franken’s IQ as well but know nothing about him except in a monolog situation he can be pretty funny.  Reciting the facts can have that power.)

Casey

no more frivolous ethics complaints (15 at last count, thirteen of which were dismissed, 2 still pending) after all, can't really file frivolous charges and harass someone not in office

franken? someone who votes for a cretin like franken deserves to be cursed with being represented by a cretin like franken.....
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 17, 2009, 06:15:46 PM
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Ah, but just think where we would be if the great pompus global warming prophet would have won.
Don't bombing raids and innocent country overthrows cause high amounts of CO2?  Perhaps this would have kept us out of the criminal tragedy of Iraq.

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oh yes he attended the Ivy League, that great intellectual black hole of thought, too bad they don't teach reality there. And was raised in.......Kenya?
Huh?  I thought his childhood was spent in Indonesia and Hawaii?  How do you know sooo much about the curriculum of Ivy League level institutions?

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The liberals realize this very well and fear her.....witness the vitriol still thrown at her on a weekly basis.....
;D :o ::) :P  The truth shall set us free.

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no more frivolous ethics complaints (15 at last count, thirteen of which were dismissed, 2 still pending) after all, can't really file frivolous charges and harass someone not in office
All that smoke and no fire?
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mkdutchman on July 17, 2009, 06:44:08 PM
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Ah, but just think where we would be if the great pompus global warming prophet would have won.
Don't bombing raids and innocent country overthrows cause high amounts of CO2?  Perhaps this would have kept us out of the criminal tragedy of Iraq.

wow, only a genuine obamabot could rationalize like that. buyer's remorse maybe? it never ceases to amaze me how some people can call the liberation of 30 million people a "mistake"

"innocent country overthrow" lmao

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oh yes he attended the Ivy League, that great intellectual black hole of thought, too bad they don't teach reality there. And was raised in.......Kenya?
Huh?  I thought his childhood was spent in Indonesia and Hawaii?

not sure, details surrounding his birth seem quite murky. all depends who you ask

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How do you know sooo much about the curriculum of Ivy League level institutions?

Well pardon me, but isn't it logical to figure that what comes out of a place like that must be a product of what's in it? And no better example than our fearless teleprompter-reader-in-chief.

And oh ya, the msm reminded us of his "intellectual qualifications" at every opportunity last fall

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The liberals realize this very well and fear her.....witness the vitriol still thrown at her on a weekly basis.....
;D :o ::) :P  The truth shall set us free.

yup. an age old truth that still works today, and the reason liberals/statists fear anyone who believes it. (What, all-powerful government ain't needed? Can't have that.)

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no more frivolous ethics complaints (15 at last count, thirteen of which were dismissed, 2 still pending) after all, can't really file frivolous charges and harass someone not in office
All that smoke and no fire?

unlike the ivy league experts some actually have to work for a living, $500k (palin's legal bills from the "ethics complaints") is a lot of money. Not to mention the difficulty in carrying out normal duties. after all, if you can't defeat them, break them, smash them, bankrupt them.......welcome to our new hope and change
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 17, 2009, 10:02:15 PM
I genuinely think you guys don't get it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

THERE IS ONLY ONE PARTY RUNNING THINGS!

Lose the repub vs liberal mentality because you're being played. 

If you want to pick sides, then watch sports.

Research what the scumbag David Rockefeller has been up to for the last 25 years, and realize that between the Rockefeller's and the Rothechild's, they are the puppet masters running the show.

Everything else is simply theater.

Do what you can to find accurate news sources, turn off the biased talkshows and start DIGGING to find out what is really going on....

If you're being spoon-fed information, you are being manipulated.

Research brainwashing and the techniques used.  Specifically, the areas that deliberately tap into base-level emotions; then tie that to the whole repub vs liberal sports team mentality and presentation that we are being spoon-fed from all sides daily.

Just my $.02

Steve
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 17, 2009, 10:44:18 PM
Oh , you've done it now !! The conspiracy theories shall now flow forth !!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 18, 2009, 12:04:50 AM
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wow, only a genuine obamabot could rationalize like that. buyer's remorse maybe? it never ceases to amaze me how some people can call the liberation of 30 million people a "mistake"

"innocent country overthrow" lmao

Having foreign troops kick your doors in is not liberation.  It's one of the more important reason we're citizens and not subjects.  "Mistate" isn't my word.  That would suggest a big oopsie by Cheney and his lackey.  From what universities did they graduate?  hmmmmm

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How do you know sooo much about the curriculum of Ivy League level institutions?

Still unanswered.  Why do the poorest educated know so much more than I do about large university curriculum?

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not sure, details surrounding his birth seem quite murky. all depends who you ask

Only to Sarah fans.

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unlike the ivy league experts some actually have to work for a living, $500k (palin's legal bills from the "ethics complaints") is a lot of money. Not to mention the difficulty in carrying out normal duties. after all, if you can't defeat them, break them, smash them, bankrupt them.......welcome to our new hope and change

Bill and Hillary where are you when someone is reading from the right wing whacko play book?  Did someone say there isn't jerks on the liberal team?  I hope not.

LowGear


Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: LowGear on July 18, 2009, 12:10:29 AM
Hi Steve,

Please don't interupt with the truth.  How anyone that is empolyed by others, you know the labor people, think they are capitalists is hard for me to believe.  I urge everyone to:

Start acquiring capital assests that provide a return.
Start paying yourself.

But lookout, I learned this in the school of business at the University of Washington.  Balmer Hall, now there was a hot bed of liberals. ::)

Casey
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: AdeV73 on July 18, 2009, 01:04:32 AM
Quote from: mkdutchman on July 17, 2009, 06:44:08 PM

And no better example than our fearless teleprompter-reader-in-chief.

And oh ya, the msm reminded us of his "intellectual qualifications" at every opportunity last fall


It's been interesting watching Obama on the goggle-box this last couple of weeks (I had only news channels to watch in my apartment...) - he doesn't strike me as being that bright, really. Or that good a speaker. In fact, if he were fat, grey, dour and had a Scottish accent and did guppy fish impressions, he'd be a spitting image of our Prime Mentalist, Gorgon "is a moron" Brown...
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: ZackaryMac on July 18, 2009, 02:39:39 AM
 :D

 I can honestly say, of all the forums I'm in, and read in as a guest, nothing can get people stirred up more than a discussion about politics.

Except discussions about oils. No, wait, politics definitely does more stirring.

How about oily politicians?   :o

The heat caused by such discussions can add to the heatwave, and over-all global warming (to keep somewhat near the topic lol).
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: compig on July 18, 2009, 10:04:54 AM
As a kid I was always given the advice for social occasions , never discuss religion , politics or oil !!
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 18, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
Here's a little sample of what I consider real news.

There is a brief segment on Rockefeller near the end but the whole newscast is well worth watching imho.

Ask yourself why we aren't seeing or hearing any of this stuff in the mainstream media.... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r-uYqKS4Gs

Am I a conspiracy nut?  I hardly think so....

Steve
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: Stan on July 18, 2009, 03:54:25 PM
I haven't time to watch this right now or do some research on informed citizen news but here's how the mainstream news is shown to us.  First, very wealthy and usually very neo-con people buy television and radio stations and gather them together into networks.  Then they hire news managers that conform to their idea of how the world should be run.  Then these news managers sort through the hundreds of news stories that are posted on the news wires each day and decide what you and I should be watching.  Then they assign the copywriters that they have hired to write the copy to present along with the news.  These news writers insert wording that is sensational, leading and influencing such as "amazing" to emote wonderful for stories they think you and I should like, and "regrettable" to emote stories that they think you and I should not like.

This goes on day after day for many many years.  Does anyone actually think this is not propaganda?
sTan
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 18, 2009, 04:37:45 PM
Here is more info worth considerating:

Watch and learn, then critique!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7K8iQAReXQ

Note the date of this interview in light of what is happening right now.  Have you applied for a new driver's license lately????

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3254488777215293198

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA

Then consider that the Federal Reserve's two primary shareholders (yes, it's privately owned) are the Rothchild and Rockefeller families.

Which bank does the Rockefeller family use and own a significant portion of?

That would be Goldman Sachs of course.

The same Goldman Sachs that just got the lion's share of the bailout money thanks to Hank Paulson (ex Goldman CEO who was Bush's bailout czar (ever wonder why Paulson was chosen?).  Goldman has also received huge payments on the back side (not covered in the mainstream media) from other bailed out banks covering margin calls on derivative investments.  

It's beautiful because they're getting paid on both the front and back side with taxpayer money.

Take a look at their most recent earnings.  Consider that the AVERAGE salary at Goldman is $650,000/yr.

The only piece that I haven't been able to substantiate is whether or not they are manipulating the markets directly thereby triggering the margin calls.  I would guess that they are, but I haven't found that piece yet.

Oh, and the current bailout czar, Timothy Geitner?  Ex Federal Reserve Bank of New York, again controlled by Rockefeller.

Bottom line:  You want to understand the what is really going on and the shadow government in the US?  Research David Rockefeller.  

Ever wonder where Obama came from and how he basically came out of nowhere with full media support? How did that happen?  

Be very clear.  There is only ONE group running things and the supposed two party system is nothing more than theater.

Steve
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 18, 2009, 04:45:15 PM
Stan,

You are 100% correct.

Now take that and realize that here in the West (both US and Canada) the majority of the stations in every major market are controlled by FOUR companies. 

Yes, four.

I wish people would think very long and hard about that fact.

I know we're all busy, but I hope some of you will take the time to check out the links I posted.  I would submit that the hour of your time will be well spent...

I, in return, would welcome the opportunity to check out stuff that you feel is important, even if I disagree with it.

Regards,

Steve

Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: apogee_man on July 18, 2009, 05:02:19 PM
Here's Aaron's movie:

(Bob will like this...)

It's about taxes.....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&hl=en

It's worth watching....

Steve
Title: Re: Heatwave ???
Post by: mkdutchman on July 20, 2009, 05:42:03 PM
I haven't had time to check out all the links, (short dinner break) but I want to sometime

Quote from: LowGear on July 18, 2009, 12:04:50 AM
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wow, only a genuine obamabot could rationalize like that. buyer's remorse maybe? it never ceases to amaze me how some people can call the liberation of 30 million people a "mistake"

"innocent country overthrow" lmao

Quote
Having foreign troops kick your doors in is not liberation.  It's one of the more important reason we're citizens and not subjects.

Its liberation if doors being kicked down are the doors of thugs, tyrants and murderers

It's liberation if the "foreign troops" set up a new, democratically controlled goverment, by the people, for the people

It's liberation if the "foreign troops" recruit, train, and equip the natives to run and control their own government, and then leave once that process is done


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"Mistate" isn't my word.  That would suggest a big oopsie by Cheney and his lackey.

remove "mistake" and insert "criminal tragedy" in the above posts. Doesn't change the intent of the message.

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From what universities did they graduate?  hmmmmm

bush, yale and mba. cheney, yale? mba. Your point is? or are you just blowing a smoke screen?

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How do you know sooo much about the curriculum of Ivy League level institutions?

Still unanswered.  Why do the poorest educated know so much more than I do about large university curriculum?

not sure what you're trying to say. is judging something by what's in it unreasonable? I notice that the "elite" in this country are very proud of their college credentials. If they learned what they know and do in the colleges............

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not sure, details surrounding his birth seem quite murky. all depends who you ask

Only to Sarah fans.

I notice sarah fans seem to be increasing almost every month

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unlike the ivy league experts some actually have to work for a living, $500k (palin's legal bills from the "ethics complaints") is a lot of money. Not to mention the difficulty in carrying out normal duties. after all, if you can't defeat them, break them, smash them, bankrupt them.......welcome to our new hope and change

Quote
Bill and Hillary where are you when someone is reading from the right wing whacko play book?

Ah, bill and hillary have their own set of problems just now, time for them to pull out their own playbook. maybe they'll self-destruct this time

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Did someone say there isn't jerks on the liberal team?  I hope not.

LowGear

Well now you tell me. Dang, now I'll have to take back all the mean, neocon, agw-denying, rightwing-playbook-inspired things I've said about you  ;D ;D ;D