Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: compig on June 01, 2009, 10:37:59 AM
-
Just heard the news here in the UK of GM filing for bankruptcy ! That is truly shocking ! Out of all the bad news during this global financial crisis that has had more impact with me than anything else. I'm aware that they were in BIG trouble and this was almost expected but to actually hear of the one time biggest auto manufacturer in the world collapsing into a worker / government coop is epic !!
Whats the mood over there guys ?
-
Just heard the news here in the UK of GM filing for bankrupcy ! That is truly shocking ! Out of all the bad news during this global financial crisis that has had more impact with me than anything else. I'm aware that they were in BIG trouble and this was almost expected but to actually hear of the one time biggest auto manufacturer in the world collapsing into a worker / government coop is epic !!
Whats the mood over there guys ?
Biggest auto maker in the world? At one time they were the biggest company on the planet.
Total assets last year were 91 trillion US$
Don't be fooled by the dead cat bounce, the economy has a long way to go yet.
-
This has been a long time coming. The brass at GM just didn't get it, they keep building monster trucks and "SUV's" that on a good day got 8 mpg in the city and 17 on the highway. The unions have been bleeding the US automakers dry for the last 40 years (average wage and benefits cost the manufacture over $70 dollars an hour) and now between the Union and the morons running GM it was inevitable the sh*t hit the fan.
Carl
-
Don't be fooled by the dead cat bounce, the economy has a long way to go yet.
I'm under no illusions about the economy. I predicted a massive crisis more than 18 months ago , mind you , that didn't need a genius !! Various friends were deterred from buying a house , cars etc by my warnings , they are quite grateful now !! Couple ignored me and are in deep trouble ! Thing that always amazes me are that the signs or impending doom are so obvious and people just don't see it !!
-
This has been a long time coming. The brass at GM just didn't get it, they keep building monster trucks and "SUV's" that on a good day got 8 mpg in the city and 17 on the highway. The unions have been bleeding the US automakers dry for the last 40 years (average wage and benefits cost the manufacture over $70 dollars an hour) and now between the Union and the morons running GM it was inevitable the sh*t hit the fan.
Carl
Weren't they just making what the market wanted though ? SUV's were the biggest selling vehicle in the world up until this crisis.
-
This has been a long time coming. The brass at GM just didn't get it, they keep building monster trucks and "SUV's" that on a good day got 8 mpg in the city and 17 on the highway. The unions have been bleeding the US automakers dry for the last 40 years (average wage and benefits cost the manufacture over $70 dollars an hour) and now between the Union and the morons running GM it was inevitable the sh*t hit the fan.
Carl
Weren't they just making what the market wanted though ? SUV's were the biggest selling vehicle in the world up until this crisis.
Yes that is where the profit was , in those large gas guzzlers. but when gas went sky high over here in the USA the car companies did not have enough small gas sippers to sell so sales went down. Now that GM stands for GOVERNMENT MOTORS my new 09 4 door gas guzzler 4X4 PICKUP will probably be the last GM vehicle I will buy. FORD here I come they did not take any government money to stay afloat.
Now that OBAMA the FACIST is in charge of Govenment motors and has some thing to say about what is built + raised the corperate fuel econmy average sky high we will watch Government Motors really flounder trying to sell small gas sippers to people that were use to buying what they wanted not what some liberal thought thy should be forced to drive.
Billswan
-
Government Motors !! I love it !! Will be interesting to watch developments , no government I've ever experienced can run a country so what chance will they have running an Auto manufacturer ??!! Logic would suggest this has to be a bonus for GM's competitors ?
-
In Canada we are investing over $1,000,000 for every job "saved". It's gotta take some really smart Government apparatchik to figure out that is a good investment Let 'em go under, offer the money to offshore producers that have the expertise to produce good, exciting small cars. G.M, apart from the big trucks (and even then, their diesel engines are pieces of crap) have been producing boring junk for many years now.
I'm a big vehicle driver, mostly pickups, but that's my lifestyle - I need them for the things I do. The ONLY thing that has kept me away from Toyota or other foreign trucks is the fact that they don't come in diesel and I insist of being able to make my own fuel.
-
I wasn't aware that there were no imported big diesel suv's ! That had to be a political thing , for a company like Toyota to miss an opportunity like that is strange ! Thing is ,recently, the UK has picked up the 'big' SUV and pickup thing with vehicles like Mitsubishi L200 , Toyota whatever and Ford something or other , not big by US standards but big for us !! We don't need stuff like that though , it's an ego thing for the majority of people that buy them. The govenrment has now slapped a big annual vehicle tax on gas guzzlers though , this won't really affect a new vehicle buyers choice as it's a very small percentage of the total price , until , that is , they realise it will kill residuals as the second buyer onwards market doesn't like high running cost's. Was a time when people that needed a utility vehicle bought a Landrover with an 80 BHP NA diesel , now they want (or think they want) all the creature comforts of a car in a 300 BHP plus SUV , 4x4 off road package to throw the odd lawn mower or bag of cement onto !!
-
Up until the big Gas price hike of 2008 it was almost impossible for me to drive through our little rural town and not encounter 25% of the the pickup trucks actually being used for the purpose they were built, 50% of the vehicles were BIG H2 hummers, Range rovers and ford Excursions with "Soccer Moms" driving with one child on board and having no clue just how big that vehicle is that they are driving is, and 25% regular passenger cars of all shapes and sizes.
carl
-
Yah even my wife commented a couple of years ago that the n. american motor companies were going to be in trouble unless they started making smaller more fuel efficient vehicles.
Bill, isn't the automakers union (or their pension plan) a big owner in the new GM? That's what was reported this morning on our local radio. I haven't looked into it in detail myself.
Stan
-
I think the union may own 20% of GM
-
Just heard the news here in the UK of GM filing for bankrupcy ! That is truly shocking ! Out of all the bad news during this global financial crisis that has had more impact with me than anything else. I'm aware that they were in BIG trouble and this was almost expected but to actually hear of the one time biggest auto manufacturer in the world collapsing into a worker / government coop is epic !!
Whats the mood over there guys ?
Biggest auto maker in the world? At one time they were the biggest company on the planet.
Total assets last year were 91 trillion US$
Don't be fooled by the dead cat bounce, the economy has a long way to go yet.
Hmmm, 91 billion maybe.
-
Its sad but its a sign of the times but don't blame the workers. Henry Ford something to the line " If I don't pay these men who will buy my cars ?" and cylce of productivity and wage gains began.
Now we live in a world where the productivity gains and real wages have become disconnected and automation and lean production creating a societly where we all have to extremely educated to get a ahead or are willing to make do with less and less.
Short time ago I was making some good money and thought I was getting ahead and now I am cleaning out my locker too because my employer although proffitable has decided to lay off cut back and demand big wage, bennits and pension concessions.
Old Henry was right who will buy these cars, but the trouble is you don't need a lot of people to make them anymore( how many guys standing around on a line does it take a robot to weld a car lol ). Productvity gains are starting to create a society where we can produce more than we can aford to consume unless we are prepared to work well in excess of 40 hours a week or go deap into debt.
Well we did both for while and now we have a real problem we can no longer consume more and more and find ways to pay for it.
We all knew this would happen at some point didn't we?
We just didn't think it would happen to us......
-
Bill, isn't the automakers union (or their pension plan) a big owner in the new GM? That's what was reported this morning on our local radio. I haven't looked into it in detail myself.
Stan
Stan
yes you are right same as chrysler at least I think that is right, the whole thing makes me so mad. The government pouring money they don't have into companys that are doomed because of poor management and prior government over reach with safety and CAFE standards.The free market would have worked this out but NO the government beholding to big labor had to stick it's over bearing NOSE it yet another business. FASCISM the OBAMA way.
I also am a big talk radio listener, 2 of my favorites last week have uncovered that when chrysler went into bankruptcy several weeks ago they sent out letters to there supposed weakest dealers telling them they will be closed soon as a way to down size the system. Well guess what many dealers that got the letter were not small or weak but they were run by owners that had direct political ties to the conservative party!! More OBAMA under handed politics at work.
Billswan
-
>:( GM was forced to go bankrupt! and it is complete BULL SHIT! The President decided that is what will happen!
It must be the right thing to do.... I mean, that is what the President of our "free" country wanted... Right?
I better stop now... before I say what I'm really thinking!
-
Go for it , I'm all ears !
-
ME to spit it out
-
When the goverment tossed away billions and billions to save fat rich bankers people accepted it.
Bail out a car compnay and save a bumnch of blue collar workers and people get upset?
Realy I don't care I gave up on GM in its present form years ago because I didn't like there cars.
I'm optomistic they make new products like the Volt to change my miind.
-
All I can say is:
(http://blog.internetnews.com/apatrizio/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg)
Sure, it's bad that a whole bunch of people are loosing their jobs and all, but the company should have been better managed.
-
Let me clarify... Its not that its GM that pisses me off.. Its the favoritism (Bank vs Manufactureing).
The car companies were going to pay back the Loans! For the banks it was a gift! and that is B.S.!
It should be a level playing field.
Sorry about the outburst and obsenities. :-[
Rob
-
YA thats a real problem I am concerned about.
Bankers get free money and manufacturers get loans ( they can probably never pay back ) with strings.
Worse still blue and small buisness people ( dealerships ) and trades and service people in the garages get pay cuts or loose their jobs completely.
BTW did any of GM's other non union employees have to take big pay cuts or loose pensions? Realy I don't know I am asking....
And there is still the spector that GM and Chrysler will not be able to bounce back as viable independent companies ( well too late for Chrylser any way ).
The Story of British Leyland and its sad end
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Leyland_Motor_Corporation
-
Gentlemen, I am skeptical about the fact that it is said that they grossly mismanaged the company. Let's not forget that new models/next generations/next model years, take 7 to 10 years to come to fruition. So even if they made changes in the model years when the long-range forecasters set the alarm on the oil problems and the economy problem, they couldn’t have made major changes to the company. Should they have not put all their eggs in one basket? Yes. Did they get caught out? Yes. But I think they were doing what anyone would do which is ride the profit wave as long as they could all the while stalling for time for engineering to catch up and funds for retooling. The normal indicators did not show the rise of oil and the fall of the economy to move so rapidly. I may be incorrect, but didn’t GM have multiple levels of hybrids on the road and in development as everybody else does? I think they were operating like a miss-tuned engine, they ran full throttle for so long and leaned out the mixture to get every last drop of power until they detonated and melted down. We all know that engines run their best just before they let go and The person at the throttle is usually the last to realize that there motor's gonna blow.
I welcome rebuttal but don't jump on the new guy too hard. These are just my opinions.
Bluecometk
-
Having no personal experience of GM's products it's difficult for me to comment on the viability of the company and it's products. However , they were the largest company in the world at one time and the biggest automaker for 77 consecutive years until Toyota took that title in 2007. Achieving those accolades does not happen without some merit. Even in the UK the Corvette is highly regarded , and trust me , we are traditionally hard on US cars !!
I know an auto maker cannot be rated on just one car but the vette shows what GM can do. Previously I mentioned that they successfully produced what the market wanted , big SUV's and pick-ups , the buyers that more than willingly parted with cash for those vehicles cannot now chastise GM for that ! What should they have done , decided that they should be the moral conscience for the buying public and only produced fuel sipping micro diesels ?? I think the consumer and shareholders may have objected !
Personally , I would not want the task of manging an auto maker in the prevailing global economic climate let alone one of the magnitude of GM.
Regardless of the remuneration it would be a bitch of a job !!
-
One thing I"ve noticed about GM (and other big name car manufacturers) is that they have spent BIG bucks, not only on bribes (I call lobbying bribing) but on lawyers as well trying to squash virtually every major innovation that has come along since waaaaaay back. They fought seat belts for years, government inspections, airbags, electric cars (once they discovered how good they are, and how bad for the oil industry they would be) etc. etc. etc.
As far as I'm concerned, they are masters of their own demise. Unfortunately, as many have pointed out the real villans have taken their golden handshakes and fled the scene.
Stan
-
There is a lot more going on than just GM.
Consider that for the last few years we have all been talking about the loss of good factory jobs.
So what will all these displaced GM workers do?
Shall we all retrain them to be computer analysts for the new information ecconomy?
Can you live on a coffee shop wage or more to the point can we build enough coffee shops to employ these people and then unionize them and raise the standard of living that way.
Can we drink that much Coffee????
Crazy talk right, well I thought Bob a was wrong when he said he felt we were heading for a "Grapes of Wrath" future a few years ago. I'm not with you on a lot of things Mobile Bob but I think your were right and I was wrong about where we were headed.
-
the way i see this, it was a disaster by design
you can't take huge numbers of people in one or two generations from living with maybe one used car, a tiny house
or rental, maybe a radio, and 5 kids ... all the way to 2 kids 3500 sq/ft, 2 plus new cars, jet ski's, motor cycles, campers
and all that without major extensions of credit.
free and easy credit is much like wellfare, really easy to abuse and get trapped for both the lender and the borrower.
folks don't want an electric car that seats 2, not even enough to make it very viable until gas gets over 4 bucks a gallon
as long as gas is under 3 bucks folks want 1 ton battle cruisers, detroit builds what will sell, lender lend on cars that sell
and the circle is completed.
add to that abuses to the system from both labor and managment, there was mismanagement for sure, as well there was serious
abuses by the unions.
there just isn't anyway for a mature company that is unionized to compete against a non union shop especially when the union shop
has a jillion retiree's making more on retirement than they ever did working.
there has to be a balance, better managment, and realistic union expectations
and when that is accomplished there has to be a return to sound banking practices, not very sexy or exciting
but it works. folks might have to work and save before they buy a new car or house, and have a down payment
but maybe along the way they figure out they really don't need a new car or a new house?
so yes things will have to slow down a lot, maybe take a 20 year step back, ok maybe a 10 year step back
quite frankly the last 10 years was not reality anyway, it was all paper/borrowed/smoke and mirrors anyway.
yes GM could have been responsible, they could have built small cars and forced them on us, they could have cut back
and laid off a few 10's of thousands and scuttled several plants 5 years ago,, they would have been in bankruptsy
much sooner.
they are not without sin, but frankly they just got caught in the whirlpool when the economic plug was pulled.
and there really wasn't a damn thing they could have done about it in my opinion.
you just cant reverse the course of a freight train or a supertanker very quickly, especially when you are making money
doing what you are doing. and when the bottom falls out why would you wanna start building cars no body but the government
wants?
bob g
-
Bob;
I agree with your overview, but I would like to add one point:
Most everyone already has a car or two. The big auto manufacturers are trying to sell to a saturated market.
For the last few years the ad campaigns were trying to get you into a new car every few years.
Heck, I buy a car that's 10 years old and drive it 5 or 10 more.
But the truth is that with a slowing economy, no-one needs to add the debt of another car payment.
That brings us to GUYFAWKS 'dead cat bounce'.
You need food. Many things you don't need. People will be holding on to their de-valuing dollars. They will slow way down on new cars, clothes, video games, the latest cell phone, new dirt bikes, jet skis what have you.
That's the dead cat hitting the ground again.
As we get more 'broke' we will be more careful.
If you get sick, you might sweat it out at home and get an appointment with your GP instead of going staright off to the emergency room. Like that.
Maybe start car-pooling to work like Dad did.
-
folks don't want an electric car that seats 2, not even enough to make it very viable until gas gets over 4 bucks a gallon
as long as gas is under 3 bucks folks want 1 ton battle cruisers, detroit builds what will sell, lender lend on cars that sell
and the circle is completed.
bob g
At the prevailing exchange rate gas in the UK is around $9.00 / gallon !! That and gas guzzler vehicle tax is definitely changing buying habits here !!
-
I bought a 2002 gmc full size truck from the dealer....i need a reliable truck for work....
I fought with the salesman for days over having to order just a bare truck.....no electric windows, no leather electric seats...i wanted a standard transmission....a basic truck...
After 20,000km the rearbrake rotors failed......no warranty...
after 25,000km new rotorcap and wires for the engine....warranty job...
after 62,000km universal joints went in driveshaft.....no warranty....
after 65,000km new rotorcap and wires again....no warranty...and this time they broke the rotor housing...i showed them how to fix it with silicon sealant.....
after 89,000km new rotorcap and wires AGAIN...this time it was a factory recall....apparently there was no vent hole drilled in the housing...never returned any money i payed out to fix this problem....
I traded the truck in immediately at 90,000km on a dodge dekota.....
I will never buy a gmc again....ever...i hope they go under...
Cheers
Tug
-
Can't argue with that , I'd do exactly the same.
-
I don't have much knowledge on this subject but I do have a question. How can a company pay 8 billion (yes, that's right) in bonuses in the year 2008 and be bankrupt halfway through the next year? Now my opinion is, it was poor management. Why were they paying bonuses like that? Poor management. Corporate greed and arrogance. They thought they were bullet proof when in fact they were as thick skinned as a tomatoe. Take all the risk you want and be rewarded for it as long as you make it appear to be beneficial or profitable. Key word is "appear". Follow advice from Lou Tice (cult like profeteer) "No matter how bad things are just say they are fine until they are in fact fine". That only works so long and fails to work when things get worse. Most corporations push his Image 21 program on all their employees. This is where it gets them. Confused?
-
I agree wholeheartedly with Tug.
I purchased a 4x4 extended cab K3500 chevy dually new in 1990. Paid A LOT of money for it and paid it off over time.
About 1993 the paint started peeling off. Had a 12 month, 12,000 mile warrantee. Was quoted $5K for a repaint because it had to go down to bare metal to properly fix it.
I took it into the dealer and was told that since it was out of warranty and there was nothing they could do about it. I pushed and pushed and the answer was always the same. Filed formal complaints, etc.
Circa 1995 or so a buddy of mine in CA who is a BMW master mechanic told me that Ford had just repainted his peeling truck under a special extended warranty program and he'd heard GM was also doing the same because a buddy of his had just had his fixed.
Right back to the dealer I went.... "Oh, we're very sorry, but we did have a program similar to that, but you missed it..." Why wasn't I notified? "We don't know, but there is nothing that we can do about it..." I showed them a different recall postcard that had been sent to me but that also made no difference.
Then circa 1997 or so, GM announces their "Road to Redemption" ad campaign essentially admitting their quality hadn't been up to snuff, and that they were willing to make it right. So I call the number and filled them in on the peeling paint issue (at this point about 25% of the truck had peeled off). They had my previous complaints in the computer system. The person was very nice on the phone and proceeded to tell me that they were not willing to do anything about it.
So, I called back and asked to speak to a manager. The manager that came on the line was very rude and told me that they were not going to do anything to help me and if I called again they would simply disconnect the call!!!!
At no time was I a jerk or even angry with them.
F*ck GM.
They should have been allowed to fail and written off as another example of why MBA college grads who have never done anything of substance in their lives should not be allowed to run anything.
I will NEVER EVER buy another gm product, regardless of how attractive it is or how good the price seems to be.
-
In China There is a saying " they broke my Iron Rice bowl "
Basicaly its meant to mean the fat inefficient company that payed me well enough and prommised an iron clad future I was not worried about things has layed me off privatized and thrown the worker to the wolves.
In a lot of ways a large unionized company is the same way. We grow comfortable and come to expect that we are somewhat insulated from the rest of the have nots and or CBAs are unbreakable documents that will allow us to work at a comfortable pace and retire with dignity.
GM made some crapy cars so did a lot of people but there are some disturbing undertones in this thread that make me wonder if any of you people realy car about the guy in the Auto buisness who woke up to find his iron rice bowl broken.
You grow into your standard of living and when its taken from you and you find sudently your goiung to be working for 20 dollars and hour with limited benifits its very hard to swallow.
Its infact depressing because you know those hard won battles will have to fought all over again when company turns around if you can ever fight the compnay long enough to get them back at all.
A lot of people complain about our union wages and say we earn/get too much but I wonder how much of that is sour grapes?
What we need to start looking at in the future maybe lower wages limited benifits and pension. Reduced hours should be mandated so at least whjat jobs there are left in manufacturing are spread around more evenly and overtime must be discouraged.
Goverment needs to step up top the plate and fidn ways to help people save for retirment and old age benifits need to be modernized to reflect the lower standard of living the working man will have in the near future and into retirement.
This all goes much deaper than Just GM guys its manufacturing in general
Sour grapes will not help and even if GM starts building the best cars in the world tommorrow too many jobs have been lost to ignore and the loss to the ecconomy from less spendign power from blue collar workers and the retiries that follow can't ignorerd.
Its a hard adjustment to make, its one I am being asked to make and everyone needs to question in the long run who will be left to pay the taxes when the midle class has been pushed bellow the thresh hold of where we can afford to pay to keep our repsective countries running.
GM managemnt corperations in general and all the big bosses, fund managers and bankers out there have little to worry. They don't hold the bag for most of the taxes and are not realy going to be affected much in there gated comunities.
GM will be fine Unlike us.........
-
EPA had car makers change paint to with no VOCs and it was learning curve for all, Ford, GM and Chrysler in that time (around 1988-1992ish.)..
Hence many cars paint peeled.
Cheers, Wizard
-
Correct Wizard.
And how is that my problem? Am I supposed to be okay with an extra $5K bill because GM was learning?
If GM was going through a learning curve, they shouldn't have been selling cars coated with that paint process should they? Instead, I would submit that they should have gotten off their collective duffs several YEARS beforehand and worked the issues out; rather than waiting until they were forced to change because they thought fighting the regulation change was a better tactic.
Doug,
In my view the list is long regarding what needs to be done to turn things around. Unfortunately, I don't think the politicians nor most of the citizens have the fortitude to do what it takes.
A number of things need to happen to turn things around:
1 - The concept of the top bosses making unlimited salaries needs to end. NOBODY is worth 25, 50, 100 million a year or more - period! It's a direct drain on company resources that could be better spent on any number of things in the company. I don't give a flying rip how much "value" they bring to shareholders. I don't care if they shit gold, they're not worth that kind of money. If they think they are, then they need to be shown the door because they've never worked for a living.
2 - The concept of companies growing 20% year over year at any cost also needs to end. This means the snot nosed wallstreet and banker types need to be shown the door and only invited back once they truly understand the inner workings of the companies that they're providing analysis on. This means they actually need to go WORK for the companies for awhile so they have accurate insight into the inner workings.
3 - Unlimited corporate profit needs to end. I have no problem with companies making handsome profits, but I do have MAJOR gripes with a couple of companies that control the entire marketplace holding the public for ransom (think oil companies and financial markets here).
4 - People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and their own well being. While it's nice to think that the company will exist forever, someone who has worked their whole life should have been planning for their own retirement.
5 - The concept of management being against the employees also needs to end. In that process, the human resources industry as a whole needs to be dumped as most are doing nothing but taking up space in the gene pool. In return, employees need to stop suing for stupid stuff and company execs need to stop being greedy and step up to the plate and take responsibility when necessary.
6 - Individuals and companies need to lose the "i was a retard and burned my crotch by putting a hot cup of coffee there so I'm going to sue" attitude. The courts need to start running the attorneys that bring this stuff forward out on a rail. Individuals who promote this type of attitude should be heavily fined to the point where they stop clogging up the system and wasting everyone's time.
7 - People in general need to lose the whole "I'm going to exist on everyone else's tit" mentality.
8 - Start taking 100% responsibility for yourself and respect others and the environment in which you live. I don't give a flying rip if it costs extra $$$ to do the right thing, DO IT ANYWAY!!!!
9 - All of the tax loopholes for corporations need to be gone. Also all tax loopholes for overseas companies need to be eliminated. US companies need to be penalized for moving manufacturing overseas. Finally, equalization tariffs need to be implimented that equalize the wage differences between countries. For example, if China decided to artificially hold their currency valuation lower than the dollar, fine because their labor costs are going to be the same across the board. Only once this happens, will it be economically feasible for companies to pay employees a true living wage that also covers healthcare and retirement. This gets back to eliminating the expectation of constant growth with is not sustainable (see #2)
10 - Implement a flat tax across the board. No excuses, no whining, every person and company pays the same.
11 - Eliminate all lobbying and gifts in Washington DC. Someone gets caught either lobbying or accepting said gift (including campaign $$$) they go to prision. No if's, and's or but's... lobby or accept and you go to jail.
Please understand, I'm not going off at you Doug. I just am SO tired of listening to both sides, whether dems or repubs spewing their BS without fully understanding the consequences.
I feel badly for the GM workers who are taking it in the shorts right now and I understand that there are many good folks there also. I really do feel for them as it's beyond their control.
However, I took it in the shorts on a $28K truck that was my pride and joy and represented YEARS of descretionary income. Where is my satisfaction? Am I supposed to be okay with the fact that I was ripped off? Especially because someone else feels entitled? I don't think so.
I have NO remorse that a poorly run company has failed. And it should have been buried instead of propped up. Short of the Vette, GM hasn't been making anything that said "wow" for a long, long time. It's not hard to do, look at the Vette, look at Tesla motors, look at what Dodge has been doing, look at the VW diesels, etc, etc. Bottom line, management was inept and completely out of touch with the marketplace. Goodby GM so space will be created for a well-run company to fill the void.
This country is SO far off course it's ridiculous.
The capitalism model has failed. Not, oh it can work if only... IT HAS FAILED! Both sides need to get that through their thick heads and understand what it really means.
Turn off that fat POS limbaugh and coulter, choose the media that you listen to, or watch, VERY carefully and work at ferriting out what is really going on. Not what is being spoon fed by the media.
The two party system is dead and gone. There is one group of people in shadows running a big puppet show and most of this country is following right along the lines BS that they're spewing. I'm a dem, I'm a repub; i vote ALONG PARTY LINES.... STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!! Bunch of freakin lemmings....
Wake up and smell the coffee because tomorrow we may not have any!
Again this is not directed at you Doug.
End of rant...
Steve
-
Just about every problem named in the recent economic meltdown can only lead any sane person to one inevitable conclusion. The free market economy (such as it is) does NOT work.
It doesn't work for one very simple reason. Greed!
If you take greed out of the equation, it would work perfectly. The only problem is.......
If you want to know what will work, I'll tell you......first though you will have to pay me $500,000.00 per year, with a $1 million dollar bonus for each year I work.
Stan
-
Stan Free markets do work but they need as reasonbale rule book to follow and we have tossed all the rules away and gave everyone a tax holiday in the name of deregulation......
Finaly this discussion is heading towards the root of the matter.
Flat tax apogee_man nope thats madness. We all need to aply a an even and reasonable Goods and serivices tax firts then reduce income taxes to reflect the new reality of taxing consumption. Flat tax may as well be a Pole tax, wana get silly, tax my TV reciever like the old days ( Stan spinning now? ).
Long over due is the productivity dividend cut the work week to 32 hours we all get a cut in take home wages but we all get jobs. Make overtime double time instead of time and a half and see how fast people start to get hired.
Tarrifs not but import taxes on nations that don't start to develop labour polices like our own ( as previoulsy mentioned ).
Health care int he USA needs to be socialized ( sorry but your politicans are on drugs ).
Old age pension needs to reflect the fact a poor pensioner needs to be given enough money to eat was well as a prisoner ( not the case at least hre in Canada )
Drugs dental and eye glass need to be socialized too ( here in Canada ).
Then the playing field will be level.....
IS THIS SOCIALISM ???????
I dunno I am very left in my views but I look at dollars and cents and rationing health care like we do in Canada reduces costs considerably and the level of service on a whole is better. Some will fair better in such a system some ( with a lot more money ) will wait longer. The question is do we want an society of poor people run by a a handfull or rich people who hide there money in tax shelters and over seas or do we want a furture for our kids?
-
IMO a lot of GM's problems are there own creation but how is bailing out all the banks more useful than GM? People wanted SUVs and GM made them. The recent meltdown that has hit everyone was more caused by the banks than everyone else who is being effected, but the banks get bailed out and end up smelling like a rose.
I really believe this all boils down to our money system and how the federal reserve controls the supply. Being that our money isn't worth anything beyond its reputation, how could this not happen sooner or later? The history books are full of examples of monetary systems, and often the whole governments controlling them, collapsing. At least some members of the US government are starting to wake up to this and even the bill(HR1207) has 207 cosponsors, a few more and a vote becomes mandatory. A year ago I would have never believed that people would actually start considering this.
The only reason our money(USD) has held up this long is that the USD is global standard thanks to the Bretton Woods system, which worked fine until our money broke ties with gold.
I agree about the unions to a point, and agree that having free trade with basically slave labor is ruining us. My problems with unions is this. When I was working as a machinist in KCK, plumbers made over twice what I did. I'm sorry but there is a difference in skill level and while I might be biased, I think it favors the machinist. Mentioning only making $20 per hour, a RN with a bachelors degree and several years of experience barely makes that here.
About free markets not working, I firmly believe they do. But we don't have a free market, we are playing a game of Monopoly where someone a printing press for money. They just kept loaning it and loaning it rapidly inflating bubble after bubble. And now the banks that loaned $400K on a $100K house are bailed out, GM is bankrupt, people are unemployed with ruined credit, soon people with money will be able to buy houses(with loans of printed money) in lots from the banks and rent them out to a new class of pheasants.
IMO, it will only continue to get worse. I see no way out. The real unemployment is getting close to great depression level already and we're only a year into this thing. At least I can still buy a gallon of gas for a pre-1963 quarter. Did I mention inflation?
-
First off...GM convinced people to buy suv's and big trucks. I'm not a cynical man (quit laughing Doug) but I truly believe that the average human in N. America has put their intelligence on the shelf and is coasting along on sheer momentum. Possibly "reality TV" has done that, but I'm not sure. It's clear though that most people can be convinced about anything if it's put on TV long enough and with lots of movement and colour.
Second, people have never been paid according to the service they provide to society. You are absolutely right about nurses, who very often save lives with their quick thinking and dedication. What's your life worth? We have a strike of sorts going on right now by first responders (ambulance drivers). They still pick up victims, but leave the paperwork to their bosses. Most of them in BC are working part time, staying at home unless they're needed, being paid a pittance ($10/hr) and making less than $16,000/yr. And what do they do? They save lives, daily! Go figure?
Our premier gave himself a 50% raise and won't pay ambulance attendants a poverty level wage. I hope some day he needs to be scraped up off the pavement and maybe, (probably not cause he's a right wing sob) he'll come to appreciate the job they do.
Stan
-
I disagree.
The whole thing goes right to pandering politicians.
They knew full well that their socializing ponzi scheme would run out one day.
One day is here, the people in power know it, but they like being in power, on TV, invited to all the best parties, and are afraid to suggest a solution or be forever banned from the good times.
The mainstream media shouts down any republican that mentions even a semi-solution, and few enough of them ever did. So the only party that can fix it without the media going berzerk is the party that made the lion's share of the promises that can't be kept.
The US debt service (interest) is greater than half of the government expenditure. 42 cents on every dollar spent is borrowed. That's well down the slippery slope. Those numbers are debated in congress every year as they set and apportion the budget. They knew all along what was happening. they Dole out earmarks and remove special interests from the tax rolls based on a lobbying spoils system funneled thru Indian reservations, the only group exempt from campaign finance reform.
As for national health care, Canada can't do it right, and they are an energy exporting nation. The US can't afford it, so it would just be rationing. The elderly will be denied care because their productive days are behind them.
We get a constant barrage about slavery and racism/sexism and class priveledge, what a crock. We live in a 2 class system. Politicians and worker bees. They went to the same schools. They know each other and look after each other.
Once the politicians have busted the budget, they fall back to self preservation mode, and help their closest buddies. Roosevelt did the same, and ruined agricultural america by declaring a bank holiday, as well as taking over the independant utilities in a goverment take over scheme that seems to be repeating it'self these days. The difference is that politicians didn't raise the national debt to crippling levels before the great depresion stock market crash. This one will be a world changer.
But ask how I really feel 8)
-
Not to get off topic but: Did you know that Chrysler, at the Fenton Missouri Plant builds Minivans with Common Rail Diesel Engines for export to Europe. Another plant, can't remember, builds the Chrysler 300 with a V-6 Common Rail Diesel Engine for export also. :o
We should HIGHJACK one of those Car Carriers leaving the PLANT! ;D
-
Very interesting stuff and almost identical to the situation we have in the UK. Currently , our Labour dictators are in a bit of a mess because a whistle blower has revealed they were actually doing what we always suspected they were but never had the evidence. They are all scamming their expenses to a degree barely credible. This had forced the resignation of many of the Prime Mentalists cabinet and he has had a reshuffle ( I like the gambling analogy there !) of the cabinet in an attempt to convince us that he's on it !! Problem is , there is lots more scandal to be revealed by a media almost beside itself with glee !! Labour is finished and this has been proved by the local council elections and Euro elections. The political situation is now so bad that a party known as the BNP , British National Party, has achieved 2 seats in European Parliament. Lets just say this party has some pretty extreme views on the non white , non indigenous members of the UK population and their participation in the little Euro Political club has really caused panic with prevailing gravy train members !!! GOOD !!
However , the specific rambling of the Euro political scene are probably boring to our US and Canadian cousins and not really on topic so I will curtail that subject. Just wanted you to know our politicians are just as corrupt as yours.
Couple of observations :-
The most deplorable burden on the Western tax payer ,IMHO ,is Military spending. How much better off would we all be if this tax parasite was reduced to a reasonable level ?
Health care. We have social health care in the UK and it is in crisis. Sometimes I think the NHS is actually killing more people than it cures !! And is that insidious policy to cull the weak and costly in our society ??!! Forgive my paranoia , but many of my worst fears of the 'system' have been proven over the years !! Management in our Hospitals now out number the medical staff and are paid more than them !! So what is the governments solution to the poor performance of our medical facilities ? More management !!! How is that even considered credible when the nursing staff are massively overworked and under equipped ?? Trust me , if there was social health care in the US it would be at least as bad as here and probably cost you more !!
Education. Thats where the magic bullet is. We need to be rid of this instant self gratification consumerism virus that has infected our society and the only way that can be achieved is for people to be better educated so that they can realise the latest cell phone , shades , jeans, trainers , SUV etc , etc , are not the way to a fulfilled and contented soul.
Oh , and eradicate the reality TV scourge , stop making celebs out of everyone from cooks to cleaners !!
Of course non of this will ever happen and the world is condemned to self annihilation within 20 years.
-
Compig
you wrote
However , the specific rambling of the Euro political scene are probably boring to our US and Canadian cousins and not really on topic so I will curtail that subject.
No No I find what you wrote very interesting, as a citizen of the USA I read your post about the conditions in europe with interest. You don't have to worry we are following in your foot steps at warp speed now with OBAMA at the helm. He has a plan in place to lower the wealthy down to the third world at, as I said warp speed. Trouble is no one except conservative talk radio listeners can see it. Seams the TV news are all in the liberals back pocket and most don't listen to talk radio..........
Billswan
-
Shipchief....I too find the current thread interesting. We have a powerful lobby group here in Canada that consists of tv and press moguls. They shout down anything that remotely smacks of "socialism".
Strictly from a canadian point of view, isn't the massive debt in the US directly a result of the war? That's what our press is reporting.
Stan
-
Strictly from a canadian point of view, isn't the massive debt in the US directly a result of the war? That's what our press is reporting.
Stan
Not nearly. We can only dream of being that little in debt.
-
As a Brit , one thing I find amazing about the US in particular but also Canada is that both countries have oil , minerals etc and yet their debt is still massive ??!! What am I missing ?
-
very interesting thread indeed
here is my opinion of why things came unraveled
aside from corporate mismanagment, union greed, sloppy banking, crooked stock brokers, all of which have always been here
to some degree we compounded their combined effect by going to a world economy in such a relatively short time.
what happened is no different than what happens to a small farming community when a large manufacturing plant moves in to
exploit cheaper labor and pays higher wages,,, the process generally damages and destroys the core fabric of the community
by tipping over the established companies that cannot pay that level of wages. they can't pay those wages not because they are
greedy and getting filthy rich but because they have tied their business structure to the economy of the area that is in place.
this rapid change cannot happen without unforeseen consequence.
really no different when we all got into bed in global markets, places like china with lower wages and no benefit workers have a hugely unfair advantage over an american company which is strapped with union contracts and the fight to keep corporate profits up so the corp stock continues to grow at a rate wall street expects... so they don't have folks dumping their stock and forceing them into bankruptsy.
on the one hand it is a very complex cause and effect problem, and on the other exceedingly easy to understand.
about the time someone gets handle on the problem he is met with a plethora of politicians that play the class envy card to get elected
and once elected they seem to feel the need to claim they have a mandate to make dramatic changes right friggin now.
just like a supertanker you cannot turn the worlds largest economy around a dime, you can't make dramatic and rapid change, it goes back to
instant gratification,, everybody wants to feel good now, nobody wants to feel any pain.
sometimes we are better served to feel the pain and take a more reasoned rational approach to change, watching for what effects our changes make.
but that is not the way of the world
certainly not the way of obama and his cronnies in congress
they want it all done yesterday and to hell with decenting opinion.
there is enough blame to go around everyone, including every one of us little folks
some of us have union contracts that we know are over the top, some of us have retirment funds that
we want double digit gains from, some of us vote to elect the very politicians that are at the root of our problems,
etc. etc.
time to get out "walden" and reread it and its companion "civil disobedience"
and learn to take responsibility for ourselves and our families, time to lead by example
time to be fiscally responsible, learn to live within our means and not within our credit ability, time
to think before we vote and if we don't know vote for a right in candidate or don't vote at all.
time to downsize before we are forced to, learn to garden and raise small animals before we get hungry.
time to band together and lobby congress to get an exclusion for small diesel engines from the epa
:)
bob g
-
Interresting how these things come up in times of economic turmoil
Michael Coren: Britain's Labour party is reaping what it sowed
Posted: June 10, 2009, 9:00 AM by NP Editor
Michael Coren, Full Comment
The definition of a Fascist? Someone who is winning an argument against a liberal. In other words, the term is so abused in North America that it has little or no meaning. Not so in Britain, Holland, Hungary and elsewhere where ultra-nationalists won seats in last week’s European Community elections.
This was, however, more of a rumble than a revolution. In Britain the perfect political storm emerged for the far right with an intensely unpopular government, a parliamentary corruption scandal, an economic recession, a dramatically low electoral turnout and a polarizing Islamic population. Even so, the British National Party received around 6% of the vote and returned two members to the European assembly. It is most unlikely that it could ever elect an MP in the House of Commons but the result has managed to introduce a new sound into the British governmental symphony. Panic. The establishment parties have been forced to realize that a growing number of people are angry with the way their sometimes valid anxieties are being treated.
In the early- and mid-1980s, while working for Britain’s New Statesman magazine, I reported on the then-National Front and its racist friends on the European continent. Teutonic supermen they were not. More a circus of outcasts, sexual deviants and soccer thugs. National socialism preached from a spare room in mum’s house. George Orwell encapsulated it rather nicely when he contrasted the Germans with the English of the 1930s. The former, he said, cry with emotion when they see their soldiers goose-stepping. The latter would fall about laughing.
The British National Party does not goose-step. It has worked diligently to expunge the Nazi image of previous rightist parties, claiming to be nationalist rather than Fascist. It’s both true and false. Almost every believing right-wing extremist supports the BNP, but most BNP supporters are not right-wing extremists. Indeed, while the party is not trusted by the vast majority of minority groups, it does has a Jewish municipal councillor and some support in elements of the black, Hindu and Sikh communities.
Most of all, it has support within a white working-class that has been taken for granted by the Labour Party for half a century.
These are the unheard, the anonymous, the ordinary. The sort of people who fight the wars, build the cities and hold the country together. When, however, they complain of the disappearance of their culture and values and speak of inner-city crime and decay, their collective cry is dismissed as racism by a political and social elite that can afford not to understand. The BNP, employing the tested tactic of fascism, merely takes advantage of the situation.
The new number in the equation is Islam, and the number is growing. While there is an expanding and quintessentially English Muslim middle class and a strong resistance to fundamentalism, Islamic isolationism is a major factor now in dozens of British cities. Entire self-imposed ghettoes resembling Mecca Road rather than Coronation Street make routinely tolerant, moderate British people feel excluded, afraid and irrelevant.
This is not mere fantasy. There are honour killings, Muslim gang crime aimed at the white community, young Muslim men dealing drugs and prostitution. There is also a political fanaticism that culminated in the 2005 terror attacks which killed 52 people and injured 700.
The response of the traditional parties, the churches and the BBC is to try to silence the already largely powerless with lectures about Islamophobia. It’s disingenuous, patronizing and counter-productive. A new conversation has to be formed, and sensitive yet difficult questions have to be asked of everybody concerned, including British Muslims and their new left-wing comrades. Otherwise the laughter might stop and the marching begin. Even in good old England.
National Post
Author and broadcaster Michael Coren’s Web site is www.michaelcoren.com
-
Bob you are absolutely right with your analogy of a large manufacturing plant ruining a small agricultural community.
The exact same thing has happened all over america and is now happening in canada. Large, big box stores come into a small community and locate on the outskirts of town on cheap land. They import cheap chinese junk from thousands of miles away, produced by poor people making pennies a day. Their low prices undercut the traditional mom and pop stores in the center of town and they went broke. The mom and pop owners of their businesses usually owned the buildings, sat on town councils, library boards etc. and generally kept the town alive. They have now retired sold the buildings to absentee landlords who don't take care of them, and are living in Florida and the center of the town is dead or dying.
Soon the big box stores will go broke, as it's now too expensive to import the goods from China, as well the chinese workers are getting higher and higher wages as the chinese government is getting increasingly nervous about the state of affairs in its country. You can't make a billion people mad at you without some consequences.
That has been the driving force behind the ruination of the small town in N. America.
Stan
-
I'm afraid you are all right where it doesn't matter, and all wrong where it does matter...
I've blogged about this, but the basic points are these.
The 4th estate (look up Louis XVI) is the Press, things went wrong when the mechanical governor of the government machine, namely the 4th estate, started to abandon their posts and take up roles within the 3rd estate, government.
(1st estate is clergy, 2nd is nobles)
Now the 4th estate in the UK has maybe 12 actual journalists, but that job is now called "investigative journalist" and those 12 or so stand zero chance against the barrage of flacks who simply wait in line for the PR handouts and print them verbatim.
differentiating "investigative journalism" from "journalism" is EXACTLY like saying this city has 2,488 detectives, and 12 "investigative detectives" and wondering why you have a crime pandemic, with 2,488 detectives just sitting in the precinct waiting the criminals to turn up with ready prepared pdf documents and power point presentations and signed confessions.
the 4th estate abandoned its post because we the people prefer fantasy to reality, and it doesn't matter how rich or powerful you are, you still prefer fantasy to reality, had a girl here last week being offered the career break/opportunity of her lifetime, and she starts wittering on about how so and so in reality tv programme the apprentice would handle it.
told her straight, what the fuck are you doing wasting your time on that shit and in doing so GIVING THEM A JOB when you have this opportunity in your fucking face right here and right now.
nobody held a gun to anyone's head and made them build, or buy, a hummer.
in a way it sucks, I was always an olds man myself, delta 88/98 was it for me (old man liked buicks) when it came to yank metal, but it's gone, dead, let it die.
don't kid yourself that the economic bomb has dropped and now all we have to do is survive the fallout, that isn't what happened, like the 4th estate abandoning its post what happened here was a sea change, as big as any of the big changes in the past.
You think the people living through the Industrial Revolution in England realised they were living through the industrial revolution? No way. That shit is only visible with 20/20 hindsight maybe 50 years later.
Only two words you need to know
"indentured servitude"
190 years ago an hours drive from here we had the tolpiddle/tolpuddle martyrs, in 1834, George Loveless, a FUCKING FARM LABOURER, long before anyone had heard of modern education, upon being sentenced, wrote;
"God is our guide! from field, from wave, From plough, from anvil, and from loom; We come, our country's rights to save, And speak a tyrant faction's doom: We raise the watch-word liberty; We will, we will, we will be free!"
I don't know many Managers in 2009 who could be so eloquent, which says a LOT about the lower working class stiffs, which explains why the 4th estate was allowed to abandon its post so easily... we have systematically and deliberately been driving down the level of education (reeding and riting ain't the same thing as being educated) of the common man.
There is NO DIFFERENCE, intellectually, between a nigerian 419 scam and a sub prime mortgage, and frankly there is no difference in the level of stupidity and lack of common sense that it takes to enter into either one... either way, you richly deserve to lose everything including your shirt.
the cheese eating surrender monkeys, without whom the USA as we know it would not exist, were the last people to effectively make these scams carry a suitably deterrent price, and put large parts of whole classes to madame guillotine.
existentialism is another good word, everything material is an illusion, a concept that those carry debt will become increasingly familiar with in the coming years, as they find that there is not a single thing that they own that will not be taken away as soon as they default on their tithes and taxes.
-
I don't agree with you on all points where you blame the 4 estate ( we have a 5 estate in Canada bur no ones watches the CBC anymore since all the cuts lol ). Our chool system was designed to take our young people and give them the skills to be a productive member of the working class free thinking not required.
I blame the lack of a spending power for the working man inspite of huge and accelrating productivity gains on the shop floor. When you automate and deskill and work force, out source and then deregulate everything else in the economy your going to end up with debt and ponzy skemes.
Any mention of redistribution of wealth is greated with pinger pointing and peole yelling Witch ( comie take your pick ).
So here we are.
Mother Courage said something to the effect " learn to eat shit and smile because at least your eating..... " to a young Swedish soldier full and revolutiuonary anger, piss and vineger( and strips him of his will to fight for his rights ).
I don't think there is enough anger and disgust with the state of things for people to get mad with or with a media doing its job
So lets all enjoy a plate of steaming goodness and move already.....
-
STAN;
US debt is a long complicated thing. It turns out that the US Gov't has run deficits for centuries. Economic growth usually expands fast enough to make the debt service a minor issue. Unfortunately, FDR accelerated the whole thing with a ponzi scheme called social security. Masses of people paid in, more than 30 per each one collecting a check in the beginning. But now we are down to about 4 people paying to support one person, and soon it will be 2:1. I can't imagine that those paying will like that much. Generations of politicians and economists knew this day would come. Each hoped it would not happen on their watch.
None of that early overage was saved, it was like free money, and dumped into the general fund to hide deficits.
Families keep getting smaller, instead of 5 children, now 2 is the average. Immigration would help, if they paid taxes. Illegal imigrants don't pay, yet collect social services and get residential tuition rates in post secondary education. More drain. Employers like to hire them 'under the table' because they don't have the government burden of employment taxes like unemployment insurance, Labor and Industries Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Payroll tax, no medical benefits and they just plain pay them less. Pretty tough on the unemployed guys who used to do that work.
Add wellfare, as well as growth in virtually every aspect of government, and you end up with a money shortage. As the US borrows 42 cents of every dollar they spend, they plan to make sure health care is a right, and pay for that as well.
Bill Clinton did ballance the budget against his will. But I don't think any deficit was paid off, just that the Republican congress closed the purse on him just enough to keep outgo = income. Once they had GW in, it was the same trough, just different pigs.
Once the Dems got congress back, they showed us what pikers the Repubs were! I'm just waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' I have no idea what is comming, but reading history is scarey.
With the US gov't so deep in debt that we can never pay it back, will they Gov't inflate it away to a managable level? When did that ever work? Will the economy pick up so fast that growth will reduce the debt to a managable level? I don't think it can with the entitlement bubble hitting us right now. We have no years of slack before the baby boomers start to retire.
Add a massive energy deficit, because the US won't exploit our own resources, the odd war, employment outsourcing laws and who knows what other counter productive policies? They all add up to where we are now.
The final problem? What do politicians and bankers do? A: They move money. What happens when there is no more money? A: They move money faster. They don't seem to know anything else.
-
Just imagine the pickle they are in in China. They have a billion + people that have suddenly discovered the "west" style of life and they all want it. The current gov't there knows very well they can't all have it! Don't kid yourself, China has had her share of revolutions and when they happen over there, you don't want to be in the ruling or upper class!
Stan
-
Stan;
I believe you are correct. I heard that communism didn't have such an iron fist control over the country; that about 50 local warlords maintained an uneasy truce with the central gov't.
We often think of China as a monolithic power block, who is marking time and getting ready to take on the whole world. Yet some say that they can't, because they are so broken up with internal factions. What gives?
-
I have been thinking about this as the latest round of layoff was anounced today....
The Company says we are all " stake holders ". So what does that mean?
A shareholder is also a stake holder but they never get layed off and they don't seem to have limits imposed on their dividends.
So I am a stake holder of sorts? I don't own any paper but I have invested my time and labour in my job in order to make it profitable and safe. My community is suported by the resource under foot so are they a stake holder. They do after all provided direct services to my employer and I indirectly suport local buisness with my spending power. Goverment is a stake holder they tax and you aren't going to cheat the tax man so they are a more important stake holder than me but still don't hold any paper. My son is a stake holder too what responsibility for his future does my employer have for tommorow with regard to how a resource is extract and refined
So a stake holder is realy only useful to a company as long as you contribute to the benifit of the company. After you retire you are a liability so its best not a have a traditional garranteed benifit pension ( less the company is on th hook to look atfter you ). And medial expenses after you retire may also not be in the companies bennifit since you may have wore out your joints and organs breating profit for them.
Why should a money man in a pension fund or other large investor so much more important than me?
Maybe I should be payed in special shares as well as cash.....
Maybe share holders should have limits on how much influance they have in a company ( a cast sytem for shares lol )
If we are going to move forward in this century I think we need to change the way we look at the value of work, money, debt and distribution of wealth and power.
-
The Company says we are all " stake holders ". So what does that mean?
I think technically, it means they can't just sack you with no consequences, which is what they really want to do. So instead they have to make you redundant with a payoff.
Also, whilst shareholders certainly mop up profits in the good times, if the company goes bump, they get squat back, and usually lose their investment to boot. The "coal face" worker usually only sees the fat profits going to the shareholders, rarely does he see the painful losses.
Payment in "special shares" is generally a waste of time - if you want shares, you'd be better off taking the money & buying voting stock. At least then, if you work there long enough & buy enough stock, you might actually end up with a decent stake in the company. Remember though - if a company goes bust, the special (non-voting) shares are worth exactly the same as the standard shares: The square root of f**k all.
Shareholders usually get a beating at the hands of the workers - but without shareholders, not a single one of you would have a job... If you want to know what life on the edge is like, start your own small business, or join a small business & invest some of your own money in it. If you get lucky - or are exceptionally crafty, hard-working and/or hard-nosed, you might - just might - end up being Mr Big in the next General Motors...
(Doug, this is not meant as a dig at you, just a bit of a rant in general...)
-
No Digs taken at all.
Thank you for your input.....
But I would rather not be anything but man with an Iron rice bowl .
-
Just remember the present small upward trend in the stock markets is referred to in some quarters as the "dead cat bounce".
Stan
-
Just remember the present small upward trend in the stock markets is referred to in some quarters as the "dead cat bounce".
Stan
That's what we call it here. http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/may-employment-report-not-believable/20102 is a little bit of info from a guy I like a lot about the recent turn around in the unemployment numbers. This guy's video "The Crash Course" is also worth watching.
-
The UK scene is reporting GROWTH in industrial output and house prices increasing !!! I'm skeptical enough to think that may be fabricated !!
-
clytle374 :
I read that. He's pretty good, I added him to my favorites.
The patroll company data seems believable, lacks the 'cognitive dissonance' of the gov't release. ;)
-
clytle374 :
I read that. He's pretty good, I added him to my favorites.
The patroll company data seems believable, lacks the 'cognitive dissonance' of the gov't release. ;)
Take some time and watch his "The Crash Course" you can watch it on his site in chapters as embedded youtube video, or pull the whole DVD image on bittorrent. It is free so no issues there.