Lister Engine Forum

Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Red Stone Engines => Topic started by: wrightkiller on March 26, 2009, 11:52:03 AM

Title: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: wrightkiller on March 26, 2009, 11:52:03 AM
http://www.woodnstuff.ca/redstone.html
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: SteveU. on March 26, 2009, 03:38:02 PM
Nice posting Mr Wrightkiller

John F. it is  your good well known personal integrity over and above the engine specs that insures you will be very successful with this engine offering. Good informative page.
My hats off to your honesty. You will have no problem finding ready willing users for these engines.

Best Regards
SteveU.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: wrightkiller on March 26, 2009, 07:00:31 PM
http://www.utterpower.com/Redstone.htm     
More pictures
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Tom on March 27, 2009, 12:15:08 AM
If my calcs are correct this engine is about 20% more efficient than a Listeroid! So tempting!!!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: listerboy on March 27, 2009, 05:20:44 PM
I would love to see a video of a Redstone starting and running. I've googled with no luck. Any videos out there anywhere?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on May 06, 2009, 01:53:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2Tx1IN0Dgw
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mike90045 on May 08, 2009, 02:10:45 AM
So, since I have no welding skills, and no workshop (yet) I would be getting a genset shipped to my "as yet to be built" shop and engine hut.  Is there going to be a built up genset?  Could I order one, on a well welded frame, set down to low speed (spring change) with about a 5KW 4 pole head ?  Or are we not at a prefab stage yet ? Delivery would be to Northern Calif.

Mike
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on May 30, 2009, 05:14:00 AM
John has posted some nice clear pics here:

http://www.woodnstuff.ca/redstone/index.html

Any updates John on how it's doing????

Just curious...

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on May 30, 2009, 10:50:01 AM
Again, life has intervened.  I'm not a lot further on with the project, I had hoped to have it in the gen shed by now but the sudden appearance of an old (63 or so) Ruston-Hornsby air cooled engine mated to a Tamper genhead kinda distracted my attention.  Sigh - I'll get back to it soon!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on May 30, 2009, 02:01:49 PM
Mike:

I have the plans for a no-weld frame for the engines.  I have made several and they are very strong, if you want a copy pm me at "john@woodnstuff.ca"
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 03, 2009, 06:42:49 AM
Thanks John,

I appreciate the update.

You ought to post some pics of the Ruston as I, for one, would be interested in seeing them!

Sounds like a cool project!

Please keep us posted on the Redstone when you get to it.  No hurry though as I also understand life getting in the way.

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 03, 2009, 03:52:37 PM
john1,has any of these engines gotten into the hands of buyers yet? if so,to what effect? do you think this engine would stand up runniing a line shaft unattended 16hr shifts? i have a 2 bay truck and equipt wash down with hi press water pumps{4},1soap inj pump,dryiny and ventilator fans and 1 air comp head{small}. i would be able to use every bit of heat.  i have been using a farmall model M with flatbelt that is a running oil leak and an atractive nuicance.  btw, the only cont. load would be from the squirrel cage fans. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 03, 2009, 06:01:36 PM
Blink;

I don't see why they could not be left unattended.  The sump is a huge 11 litres and the engine seems to me to be designed for long-term running, it's built like an oilfield engine.  Unfortunately we have found some casting sand in a couple of the engines that have been put into service so I cannot say they are ready to go out-of-the-box, they do need to be checked.  I have an email in to my agent over in China and he will be visiting the factory to talk to them about this.  From what I can see it looks like the engines we got in are from two entirely different builds - some are clean as whistles and the others, well, not so much.  I hate it when this stuff happens, just makes it more difficult for everyone. 
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 03, 2009, 07:22:58 PM
johnf, would a complete disassembly or open the mouse holes to clean out be needed? also, does engine have bare portion of stub available to mount pulleys ? one more ? if posiible, can i run this at rated speed when needed and idlle back during the lull? blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 04, 2009, 12:25:21 AM
Blink;

To be on the safe side, I think I would take off the sump and end covers along with the side cover to have a look at everything.  As I said, most of the engines are fine but we have found some significant problems with a couple.  I wouldn't feel comfortable telling someone to run it out-of-the-box.  I don't think there is a need to completely disassemble unless you find some problems.

The engines come with a flat pulley, but you can also run off the drive side flywheel.  In my case I run at 1200 rpm using a 13" pulley.

You can always idle back, but it is not a good idea.  With a single speed engine the governor dictates how much fuel the engine consumes - if there is no load it is just idling anyway, slowing it down would not save much and would result in a lower voltage output.  You don't really want to be running a diesel engine for long periods without load - they just get lazy and coke up on you.  They like to work, my 6/1's are usually running at 80% of capacity.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 06, 2009, 06:09:37 PM
"From what I can see it looks like the engines we got in are from two entirely different builds - some are clean as whistles and the others, well, not so much."

John,

Is there any way to tell by serno which may have come from the initial build and which from the second one?

Prof Blink's application sounds perfect as a long-term test bed for one of these.  Just need to find him a clean one...

Also, are either you or Joel planning on doing a tear down inspection (hopefully with pics) on one of the ones where you found sand?  I'm thinking that it might be wise, just to ensure that everything else is still up to snuff (heat treating on gears, bearings, clearances, etc) like the original that we saw on the Utterpower site?

I think this boils down to a training issue.  Both in India, and now China, it comes down to the assemblers not understanding that each and every part needs to be spotless and the reasons for it.  My guess is they're not being told by management or the turnover is so high that the training is not keeping up.  Fix the training and the rest will follow I think.

I feel for you guys as unintended curve balls like this are a pain to deal with!

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 18, 2009, 01:13:27 AM
I have already spoken to the factory and of course they have apologized - but that and a buck will get me a cup of coffee.  All depends on whether the next shipment is any better.

Yes, one of the engines has been stripped down to its component parts and I will be putting together a CD with lots of pics as time goes on.  It is pretty strange, I just can't see any upside to any company producing two different levels of product.  Seems to me the potential for mistakes (as may have happened here) is just far too high.  The Chinese are trying to recover from stuff such as the Melamine animal food, lead coated kids toys and now stuff like this.  You gotta wonder if their Q.C. guys are being paid by the Teamsters.

We'll get through this, it is just a bit annoying.  Up till now we have never had a problem with sand in Chinese engines - hopefully the resident Q.C. guy there has been introduced to Chinese justice........
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 18, 2009, 06:20:15 AM
"hopefully the resident Q.C. guy there has been introduced to Chinese justice........ "

Hopefully not that extreme.

Let's just hope that he now has been made extremely aware of the issue and maybe they've added a true final QC layer to their processes.

I bet it's mostly an issue of the block being too heavy to move around by oneself and perhaps the assembler(s) (perhaps one or more females or just lazy guys) didn't want to go to the effort of really cleaning the casting sand because it was too hard to lift and move the block around.

Just a guess...

I have faith that you guys will get it worked out soon enough...
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: oliver90owner on June 18, 2009, 07:18:26 AM
I just can't see any upside to any company producing two different levels of product.

Revenue.

Up-side for them - more sales of the cheap stuff, lower unit costs.  More of the failed 'high spec' castings, etc, used up without reprocessing back to molten metal.  A premium paid on the higher spec product.

Other examples are plastic buckets -  food grade must be virgin plasic, non-food could be recycled product, - foodstuffs - same factory better friut, or whatever, to Sainsbury's, other grades of fruit to the 'buy it cheap' chains, (breakfast cereals are another example), cement - the best will go to the big users in the concrete trade, any 'tailings' will go to the bagged product line.....

Goes on everywhere.  Just in your instance there is a definite downside when they short-change you

Of course, getting them mixed up is the real sin.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Doug on June 18, 2009, 06:08:56 PM
It happens all the time.

They will build some great product for you but they have to cut corners to make money and you get a few duds in there from all the corner cutting.

Then they says "OH NO we change nothing" and you get a few good ones again and then some more duds....
You find a new suplier and the cylce begins again.
Not as bad as India but the presure to produce at lowest cost is cripling and these people are facing an ecconomic down turn too so they MUST cut costs.

Some bad stuff will slip through the cracks, that just life....
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 18, 2009, 06:39:23 PM
good afternoon, last question,if i may, what should happens if an end user gets user gets stuck with a shoddy engine? should the dealer ship him or her  a carefully checked out replacement,or a couple of gaskets and a song and a dance? if i buy a $250 truck starter that does not work correctly, the re-builder hustles over, with hat in hand. with a replacement. how much is a new redstone? should anyone expect or deserve less? blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Doug on June 18, 2009, 07:26:07 PM
That all depends on who sold you an engine and what they feel they obligated to do.

Some are very good others are not. One or two run  hot and cold and one guy is so full of Shite he says his engines are good for 100,000 hours but if it breaks ship him back the full engine and he will repair it for free ( YOU pay the shipping both ways ).

These are a do it yourselfer kind of thing so you only pay a couple of grand for an engine. If you want realy diesel oil field engine you will pay a great deal more to get that quality and service.

I just bought a Chinese Quad and mini bike for my son and I recently . I payed peanuts for it and dealer said he this is chinese they may be problems and things loosen up so stay on top of it. He's one of the good ones ( I get his best prices for parts and free pick of his scraps and used parts/engines ). If you can find a guy like that who is honest about the limitations of the product and will have the parts you need at a reasonanble price then that is good deal in my opinion.

There are guys out there selling engines ( notice I do not specificaly name people because I have been accused of bias ) you simply ned to do your homework and ask the right questions.....
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 18, 2009, 07:45:20 PM
doug, do it it your self kinda thing, yea,,,,ok, but at the 2500.00 price point the line gets blured. i would like to see the bare castings made available for purchase to sharpen the line between diys and buying eng fit for service. i hope you airplane guys do not start buying Lycombingoids and flying them over my house. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on June 18, 2009, 07:48:53 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again,  ALL Chinese and Indian engines **of this type and price range** should be considered a "kit" engine that will need inspection, corrections, and an *understanding of* before putting into use.  Failure to do so could result in the failure of the engine or even a lack of basic safety.

An engine **advertised** as NOT needing that treatment and 'ready to run till it breaks' has either been carefully worked over by a 'correction mechanic (and usually a machinist, too) at considerable extra cost,  or is a fantastic bargain by a gambling importer that hopes nobody looks.....or a crook is trying to sell by lying about it.

There is no free lunch.   An engine that produces usable horse-power for ten thousand hours on a small amount of a wide variety of fuels is worth at least $.35 per kilowatt hour produced.  I proved it to myself and wrote of the experience http://www.utterpower.com/magic_springs.htm.  

  When that cost of the basic engine is added to the fuel it uses and the gen-head or pump you're driving, and the care, feeding and maintenance of the unit, its clear that home-made electricity is not cheap, but it is independent and there's a lot to be said for that.

If you're in the market for a cheap engine in an effort to save money?  Forget it.  Either plan on working on it, spending some money to get it right, or pay somebody else to do it.  The final price is the same.  The enjoyment is the difference.  Consider it a very useful hobby, work with the importer, and have a LOT of fun creating what the Indo/Chinese usually miss, but give you the basics of a very useful engine that you can't *build* in a home shop, but you can sure correct it and repair it there if needed.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 18, 2009, 07:57:20 PM
hotater, good point, what do you est. the value of inspection and correction on average $1500.00 6/1  blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on June 18, 2009, 09:14:21 PM
B-

Having re-built two Listeroid 6-1s and run them about 16 hours a day for a total of 10,000 hours and then having to offer the engine for sale, I can I think, fairly answer that question, but it's loaded with agonizing second guessing by others.

I used "$.35/KWh" using my Listeroids as an example.  They ran at 5500 feet elevation and carried a load of a near constant 2800 watt load with spikes to 5500 when a freezer started.  I had bigger gensets for the bigger loads and the Listeroids ran as 'everyday power'.

I think a properly 'corrected' 6-1 is worth *at least* $3500.  The guy doing the work might think otherwise, depending on what it takes to 'make it right'.

To *clean* an engine is different than making sure the piston runs square with the cylinder walls and the crankshaft is square with the head. http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2271461130028237237FHPrVk

 To  *do a valve job* is much different on some Listeroids than anything an auto machine shop is even capable of doing.  To find someone that *wanted* to do it would be harder than paying for a very bad, but expensive job from Dufus McGrew the Snuffdipper that's an expert because he recognizes three angles.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2542634680028237237qQfdnc

I priced my 'Magic Throb II' engine and 5Kw ST head, mounted on solid concrete and wired to the structure at $5000 and it was turned down.  (whew!)
I still own it and the concrete is already poured to hear it purr again, but I'm (barely) on grid and don't need it every day, now.

Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: xyzer on June 18, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
I look at it that you are buying a core to rebuild. My first 6/1 was $750.00 or about $1.00/lb. (plus shipping). Then I paid $1,200.00 for the second 6/1 or about $1.60/lb (plus shipping). Then I picked up a new Z482 Kubota (12hp) for about $1800.00 and paid about $12.00/lb. so it appears to get an out of the box runner you will need pay a bunch more money than we have been or just join the DIY gamblers club. A $10.00/lb "OID" with a 90day warrenty might cost $7,500. If they were to build an "OID" to a Kubota standard the whole production line would have to be scraped and re-tooled with modern equipment from the foundry to QC and that would be spendy. They do do a good job of packaging ;D. If and when I jump for the Redstone at $2.25/lb? I will assume it needs a look over.

There is no free lunch.

Or you get what you pay for!

Dave
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 18, 2009, 10:27:52 PM
hotater,aside from the agonizing 2nd guessing, $3500.00 investment or 6to7 for a 12/2 is still a bargain. if the oem still produced those engs, i believe they would still sell well to the commercial segment. i see a lot of equipt. such as rollers,paving boxes,hyd cranes that would be a pleasure to operate w/those slow turners. in those 3 aplications, the operator is right on top of or in front of the engine for the complete work day. i am surprised these engines are not available in turn key form for those who need it NOW. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on June 19, 2009, 12:36:24 AM
...and then there are the flocks of officials at customs, Ag Dept, Homeland Sec., shipping companies, dock workers, bonded warehouses, tarriff officials and inspectors of every grade just waiting like buzzards for the EPA to outlaw everything resembling 'obsolete technology'  (hobbies are for the Bourgeois  and demand they be made into artificial reefs for the endangered hairy snapper.

When you add in the risk of whirling Indian iron in notably porous flywheels capable of scattering various amounts of civil liability into multiple jurisdictions, the fact that you *certified* it of good quality will drain your total worth to millions below zero like a firecracker in a cow patty.

SO, the work to make one 'right' could be $2000 and the ability to insure against catastrophic failure a like amount.....IF you can convince an underwriter to take the coverage.  Smart ones charge more for more risk.  Some flywheels have broken.   I saw a little KID running around a running 6-1 on youtube.  It's just a matter of time before one is turned into a juicy version of a flap-wheel grinder.  Some Congressman or Peer will write a bill......

Grab one when you can, buy George's CD and STUDY what has been learned about the fascinating world of new old engines.  All you need is a level, a square, a set of feeler gages and a straight-edge to set one up to run longer than most lawn mower wantabes.

There was a Cricket roller with a 5-1 in it on ebay several years ago.   ;D

I'm going to jack-shaft one to a concrete mixer of a big pool project this summer.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 19, 2009, 12:46:28 AM
Blink;

The Brits stopped making these engines because they were priced out of the market.  When unions are demanding $30+ an hour for a guy in a casting shop and more for the "fit and finish" guys it is easy to see why no-one would buy the engines at a price that would give the manufacturer a decent return on investment.  That resulted in the machinery being sold to the Indians, who could care less about Q.C.  All they want to do, at minimal wages, is to produce something that will work for a couple of hundred hours before needing repairs.  Some of us have gone through the hoops with the Indians trying toget them to improve Q.C., but you just can't get past the fact that they assemble the engines on a dirt floor.  Things are much better now that they were with SOME manufacturers, but there is one point you MUST understand - the average person on this type of board believes that price is the ultimate decider of where to buy.  That means someone who has worked with a manufacturer and introduced (costly) improvements cannot see anything approaching a reasonable R.O.I.  Here's just one example - the engines I buy probably cost around $200 more at the factory gate than some of my competitors.  BUT, after getting them here I constantly hear from potential purchasers that "brand X" is cheaper so they are buying from them.

I CAN provide you with a properly finished Listeroid or Redstone - prices would be in the $5,000 and $7000 range respectively.  Just tell me how many you want and I'll get right on it.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on June 19, 2009, 01:07:14 AM
Quote
I CAN provide you with a properly finished Listeroid or Redstone -
[/b]

Yes he can!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Doug on June 19, 2009, 02:03:29 AM
See newbie he will build you an engine that is perfectly functional from the crate.
You will of course have to pay extra....

Its all about what you are willing to spend.

Treat an engine like this as a hobby, your going to be puttering and playing around with it anyway so enjoy the act of building it yourself. If you can do that it might be a cost effective way to make power and it will amuse you.

Or pay John 5000 and he will do a PDI and test run what ever. I don;t know if he would warretny it for any length beyond that. Good question for you John is there a warrenty on an engine you PDI and test and what about George and Joel are they covering parts for a set number of hours like the roids they used to sell?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: piperpilot3tk on June 19, 2009, 02:39:32 AM
Quote
  i hope you airplane guys do not start buying Lycombingoids and flying them over my house. blink

Actually two companys do make aftermarket "Lycomings", and they are opposite of the Lister clones, they are BETTER than the originals.   Now you are asking yourself....why are they better....the answer is they are made with "improvements" that do not meet original type design and therefore they are not FAA "certified" and can only be installed into experimental aircraft.  What you have to worry about is the ass clowns flying experimental aircraft with Mazda rotaries and other car engines.  Some guy a few hangars down from me has a new RV-10 he just finished with an LS-7 Corvette engine in it.....yeah it has to be better because it has exponentially more parts, it is water cooled with a radiator and lots of plumbing and has a computer to run the whole works right ??? ::) :-\ did I mention it weighs half again as much as 540 cubic inch Lycoming and is twice the size.... and that the airplane just flew for the first time a few weeks ago because he has been having trouble with the engine for over a year now.  Yeah he tried to sell the firewall forward engine kit that he bought from some company for far too much money (more than a purpose built aircraft engine).....but nobody wanted it, so now he is stuck.  I wish him well and I hold my breath every time I see him take off.  Opposed cylinder Lycomings were designed in the 40's and they were not state of the art even then, but they are dependable and they work really well, that is why they are still making them.  I wish real listers were still being built :'(
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on June 19, 2009, 04:21:56 AM
big difference between a car engine and one made for aircraft or boat use

not many cars ask their engine for over 20% of the available hp on a continous basis

certainly a lot of boats and airplanes ask well over 80% of the available hp on a continous basis
and it takes some good parts as well as design to hold up to that duty.

don't think we will ever see a new oem quality lister ever again, which leaves one of two things
1. take it as a kit and rebuild it to oem standards, or
2. pay someone else to do it for you

that is of course if you need oem quality and lifespan to start with?

there is a huge number of folks that only need their engine to run a week or so per year
even an old sand motor will probably last several years called to this level of intermittent duty.

probably less than 5% of all these engine's will ever be asked to produce max power on anything like continous
basis 24/7/365 for years on end.

because of this it is not likely there will be a large enough market in building these engines to a high standard.

most folks really don't need it, and are unwilling or unable to pay for it anyway.

realistically these engine's should be seen as a hobby that can with a bit of work do useful work if called on to do so.

as for the redstone, there is far less work to do than what i have seen with some of the listeroids.

all things considered, dollars per hp, dollars per work required to make right, etc the redstone beats the socks off
of any listeroid in its hp class.

maybe not an engine for everyone? not sure everyone has a use for the amount of power available? even at low
rpm it is still probably good for 12hp continous.

i hope it takes off and finds its niche, as i am sure it will.

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: oliver90owner on June 19, 2009, 08:13:35 AM
The Brits stopped making these engines because they were priced out of the market.

Not quite right , John.

The fall of Persia marked the end of production.  Many of these engines were exported to the Middle East as reliable prime movers, operable and serviceable by low-skilled labour.

When that market dried up - rather quickly after the revolution - the unit costs spiralled (yes, UK labour rates were high) but there was simply no market for the bonafide product.  I would suggest there was already a 'backyard' spares operation going on in India for the previously-imported engines and nowhere else in the world wanted a 1/2 ton of cast iron for 6HP, with lots of alternatives available for peanuts and weighing perhaps only a tenth of a Lister.  Basically nobody wanted an engine that was going to out-last the job - buy cheap, use, throw away, replace. Life-time cost was less than eventualy repairing a long-lived Lister.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 19, 2009, 02:55:41 PM
RAB;

You are likely right, I guess it all comes down to demand - as with everything, if there is enough demand then the cost can be amortized over a large number of units instead of a few.

Doug:  I've never had a request for a full PDI engine, people are just too cheap.....ummm, parsimonious....  My engines are warrantied for 12 months (parts replacement) - but I'm not going to get into the million hour engine debate!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Doug on June 19, 2009, 04:50:10 PM
Thank you for clearing the air John.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on June 19, 2009, 10:25:59 PM
piperpilot3tk;
I resent your comment on Mazda rotary powered aircraft owners, our sexual orientation, and our experimental aircraft.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on June 20, 2009, 12:15:30 AM
i was waiting for that one!

:)

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on June 20, 2009, 01:35:20 AM
Hi Bob!  :D
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on June 22, 2009, 01:56:13 AM

  ;D In 5 years they will change the name of this Forum to: ' Redstone Engine Forum ' ;D
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on June 22, 2009, 02:56:23 AM
Its not very likely the Redstones will outlast the Dursley Listers.
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: sid on June 22, 2009, 03:56:04 AM
I am waiting for the cd to be availabe showing how to repair it.sid
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 22, 2009, 12:02:21 PM
Sid;

Working on a CD now, but it might take a while.  Lots of 8 x 10 glossy colour pics of a totally stripped down engine with paragraphs and descriptions on the back....oops, flashback to Alice's Restaurant......yes, there will be a CD.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 24, 2009, 12:46:00 AM
hello all. yes, thanks for clearing the air. i think a deutz FL 2 911 will do the trick on the wash bay project. a 2 row bearing clutch cover w/stub shaft made for belt load. i got the wrong impression from utter web site saying the redstone was ready for prime time. they have one apart for photos and rave reviews, what else could one think? i agree with the hobby thing for the individual that is not immersed in the iron trades and is not under pressure from demanding customer expecting plug and play,low maintainance,and 20k hrs life expectancy. newbie
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on June 24, 2009, 01:50:31 AM

  I think that utterpower and woodnstuff want to make absolutely certain that these engines can be put to use as RELIABLE no-non-sense machines.

  From what I have seen so far,these engines look pretty good. And come with Starter,Alternator,Water pump and a tool kit. Try to get a 1.9 L Listeroid with all this stuff for that price.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 24, 2009, 02:04:27 PM
Blink;

The first one we looked at was a very nice machine and that is likely what George reported.  It wasn't until a bit later that we found some problems and we have been as honest as possible in discussing them in public.  Unfortunately, with 3rd World production you do get cheaper prices, but the quality can be somewhat questionable.  The factory has assured me that future orders will be clean, I will check that when the next ones come in.   
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 24, 2009, 05:37:55 PM
John,

Out of curiousity, how many engines have you and Joel sold at this point?

I'm wondering what the experiences have been thus far, but have no way to read the dedicated forum.

Just wondering.

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 24, 2009, 07:54:36 PM
Steve;

Both Joel and I run private businesses and neither of us will disclose how many of anything we sell, it is private information. 

Suffice it to say we brought in 20 engines between us and we have very few left.  Of course, I am keeping either one or two to put into my off-grid genshed, that should tell you what I think of the Redstones.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 24, 2009, 09:23:08 PM
John,

Excellent news!

Glad you guys have made a significant dent in the shipment.

So, it would stand to reason that at some point, we should start to have some idea of longer-term reliablity and user feedback on them.

I wasn't trying to pry, just wondered if we had a number of sites that were running them on a regular basis that would give us an idea of how they're doing in the field.

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 25, 2009, 12:42:34 AM
Steve;

There are several out there now that are beginning to rack up hours, but it will take people like me to get significant hours in a relatively short time frame.  As is usual here, Life kinda intervened and stopped my Redstone work in its tracks, I hope to get back onto it in the near future.  I will report on progress and on people's insights into the engines but as with all "new" things, it does take a bit of time.  I'd love to tell you I have 10,000 hours on a Redstone with no problems, just can't do that right now.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 25, 2009, 03:27:42 AM
john, please do not think that YOUR honesty was in question. a while back, before i became a newbie, there was a thread about someone buying one and running it and was going to do an expose, and he was flamed. do not know where it is or exactly when it was. i hope things settle out and all works out. newbie
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 25, 2009, 03:37:45 AM
Thanks John!

Understood that it takes time...

Just curious that's all.

Thanks for your directness and being willing to share your experiences.

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: carlb23 on June 25, 2009, 01:35:29 PM
john, please do not think that YOUR honesty was in question. a while back, before i became a newbie, there was a thread about someone buying one and running it and was going to do an expose, and he was flamed. do not know where it is or exactly when it was. i hope things settle out and all works out. newbie

I don't think the person was wanting to do an expose on the engine, but he was going to tare down and document what he found good or bad and relay that information back to person he purchased it from.

Carl
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on June 25, 2009, 10:20:12 PM
carl, understood, reread the thread if you can find it. he was told to  pound it or something like that. did not sound to me that any one wanted to hear anything about it. i thought this would be the place to kick it around, who else would care? would it get ink in the TIMES? the liseriods get a complete public cavity search but these redstones seem to get a pass. newbie
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on June 25, 2009, 10:47:04 PM

Prof.blink , if you are wondering why Listeroids get a 'complete public cavity search' go to youtube and type  'redstone diesel engine' then read the comment below about Listeroids in general. You will see why!  When you watch the video, notice how the Redstone/Genset assembly is not walking around in circles on the concrete. Looks pretty damn smooth for a 115cu.inch (1.9L) SINGLE!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on June 26, 2009, 12:56:25 AM
Blink;

The Redstones don't get a "pass"  The most critical people are those that own them and have done a tear down.  Yes, we found sand in a few engines - but we also found excellent machining, fit and finish.  Some work is required with these first engines to get them up to snuff, but that is why most have been sent to a few
'gearheads" who can tear down an engine and rebuild it without getting all knotted up. 

Yes, we had one user run with 16 quarts in the sump, instead of 12. That caused the engine to carbon up a valve, but he did not even have to pull the head.  He just tapped it, and it came out of it.

We have had several users fuss about excessive end play in the cam, but that is really easy to reduce using a flat washer.

On one engine, the owner reported one of the piston rings that was not spaced as evenly as he would have liked.

We have had one engine with a broken solenoid wire. It took twenty minutes to re-solder.

About one in three sold have varying amounts of grit/debris initially.

Most all run at 900 to 1300 RPM.

Sorry, it is not so exciting.

These are new engines to North America - so far so good, but there is ALWAYS room for improvement. 
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Wizard on June 26, 2009, 01:52:59 AM
Excellent report. :)

I don't mind doing the work even I don't have machine shop at the disaposal to prep the redstone and I lately don't know if there is original Lister CS or like existing in Ontario.

Cheers, Wizard
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: piperpilot3tk on June 26, 2009, 02:04:50 AM
I want one!!!  Maybe next year.... ;D
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on June 26, 2009, 03:43:09 AM
I second what Jens said.

The information vacuum is hurting you guys in my opinion.

Nevertheless, thanks for the report!!!!

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on June 26, 2009, 04:57:35 AM
i am not sure it hurts or helps, probably a wash

what i do know is if you bring to market a product before it is ready, that will certainly come back to hurt.

what the guys are doing with their redstone product is really no different than GM keeping the wraps on
their new camaro, the keep it in house and flog the crap out of it to perfect it before general release to the public

John and Joel, certainly are not a big as GM (probably thankfully so), so they have to outsource their R&D.

seems perfectly reasonable to me.

besides anyone that is genuinely interested, ready/willing/able to buy a redstone now is likely going to be just
as much so when the general release finally rolls out.

the only way i can see delays hurting them is if there was a competing product ready for market, which clearly there
is not.

so i say, take your time fella's and get it as right as you can, and where you can't document it well so there
are few if any surprises down the road.

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on June 26, 2009, 05:03:15 AM
   An information vacuum exists for the simple reason that only 20 engines have been imported (that we know about)  Lets suppose that they have sold half of them so far. One of those engines purchased might still be in the crate, some are being set up,a few are up and running,but the customer has not posted anything yet, here or on youtube etc. Very low numbers,when you think about it!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Tijean on June 26, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
People always clamor for the juicy details but easily remedied problems are better privately rooted out and put into place in production without them ever hitting the tabloids. I have had a bit of experience working with prototype forestry harvesting equipment. Competing brands sales and PR people just love to get hold of every tid bit problem and blow it up. That is as it is.

I agree with mobile bob. Get the silly kinks worked out before you put the product out to your general market. You will get people whining about the delay, but not nearly so damaging as they would be if they had something substantial to latch onto.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on June 26, 2009, 06:06:44 PM

   With almost everything,some kinks wont show up for a while. eg. The Saturn. The main wire that connects to the Alternator being routed to close to the Exhaust Manifold. This caused a few fires. The media made it into a 'BIG THING' Easy Fix,Just move the wire!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on July 01, 2009, 12:40:15 AM
Well, that was quick - all of my Redstones are gone except for the one I am keeping.  Think I'll order a few more, looks like there is a need for them.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on July 01, 2009, 12:55:15 AM
Congrats John!

Excellent....

Can't wait to hear more such as fuel usage and how they're doing once in the field.

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 02, 2009, 05:43:57 AM

   Still need more photos of the finer details!  Top of the water hopper cover would make a good location for the fuel filter for warm fuel.  Compared to a Listeroid, it appears that accessories can be added more easily on this engine.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 03, 2009, 05:13:39 AM
good evening all, a former member of this board and i have a mutual friend who has recentlly dismantled a redstone for inspection and corrective work. at first glance, it looked like a turn of the century hit and miss that was unearthed in a sub-way dig. after extensive mecanical scrubing,touch up grinding and trip to the after hours soak tank, things looked quite promising. problems so far was cam cover missing the outboard bushing and no provision for controling cam end thrust. after turning and pressing new bushing into cover,we discovered .030 thou runout at end of camshaft. as it turns out a spacer bushing between the cam gear and the injection cam was not sized and broached to fit over the shaft and 8mm key, but a piece of cored stock that measured 1 .183 was used to go right over the shaft and key and was over tightened . the new spacer was made 1 .023 id 1.500 od and .640 wide (.040) less than oem to allow the inj. pump cam follower to track c/l of cam. also the key that was fit was at least .080 to long and was bottoming out between end of key broaching on cam and washer under retaining nut. i thought it of some import to mic up all parts for width at 120 degrees that make up the cam stack before assy. the inj cam had a nasty burr that had to be corrected on the surface grinder. the washer under the retaining nut was disgarded because of the loss of .040 in stack height exposed the unthreaded portion of the shaft so a stepped washer was made up w/ .100 step to make sure of no false tightening.  will have to adjust some bolt holes in cover after final location and fit 2  3/16  dowel pins to keep it from creeping around. last thing check the gov fork on the shaft. we will re drill and oversize. will have to make new pin because the orig pin is ruined by poor pinning of the fork and lots and lots giggle. all else looks pretty good. too bad you could not get the bare castings so you could let them season then finish them stateside . if you get one of these engs cleaned up and detailed, it WILL go the distance, everything is big,thick and heavy. he should have it together soon . all in all, was much better than earlier anticapated. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on July 03, 2009, 04:52:51 PM
Thank you Blink!

Finally, some other real info from the field!

Blink, did you guys document with photos?  It would be nice to see what one of the "bad" ones looked like simply as a worst-case scenario. 

My assumption is Joel and John will resolve the production speed bumps moving forward, but it would be nice to see photos of the issues and the modifications that were made.

Doesn't sound like the things found were too bad.  Bit of hassle that's all...

I'm anxious to hear how it does once it's up and running.  Your buddy's impressions, fuel usage, noise factor, etc....

Thanks for the report.

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 03, 2009, 11:55:37 PM
ap man, pics were taken, but will not be posted because it would show less than the printed word. i think most of these units will end up being opened up and detailed by people who have close affiliations with the trades and are often in and out of shops and will have no trouble finding the help needed. most of the time, those shop visitors bring more to the table than the little bit of help needed on their lump of iron, in this situation, that was the case. as an after thought, the oil p/u screen is relitivly high the sump , and should be left that way at least until a few hundred hrs after break-in. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 04, 2009, 06:24:26 AM

   Just wondering here.  The Ford 'Model A' engine had a small compression spring to hold the camshaft against the back of the engine block. If this spring got 'weak' the camshaft would ride forward over the gear teeth.The teeth were cut at an angle for quietness. This would create a slight knock as it would cause the tappet to come down to quickly.  Just wondering if something like this would be a 'good fix' for this problem.   Or a spring washer!   NEED PHOTOS!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on July 04, 2009, 11:19:54 AM
I have a bunch of photos taken during a tear-down, I'm busy making them into a CD.  Apart from the sand issue (most important) the camshaft play is the biggest problem we have found.  It would seem that there "should" have been a shim in there to prevent excessive play but it wasn't installed.  It's a pretty easy fix but it should not have been omitted.  I'm talking to the Chinese now about a new order and I will be tightening up the specs as a result of people's findings.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 06, 2009, 06:42:27 AM
jf13, just wondering if any other camshaft assys were inspected between centres or at least indicated in the block for runout at the end bearing surface? were all the other end bushings omitted pointing to the factory knowing there is a problem and an unwillingness and or not  being unable to take viable corrective action? die dave, light srpring and a ball, but there is limited space, we made a stepped washer from bronze .300 thick .005 below morton plug od  with .050 protruding into end bushing .010 less than bushing id. that will be adjusted when end cover goes on w/gasket. there is not much surface on the shaft end but w/ 1000 rpm or less and drive gears being straight cut, i think it will sufifiice. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on July 06, 2009, 07:20:35 PM
blink;

No others that I know of have any run out on the camshaft.  As for the end bushing, I'm aware of one other engine that had it omitted.  Several engines are now up and running giving good, stable power, it does seem that there were some problem children in this lot but the majority seem to be OK.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 06, 2009, 09:26:30 PM

  Is that an end bushing on the Gear Cover? And if so, why? 
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 07, 2009, 12:28:04 AM
deisdave, that should be a bushing in the end cover. with out bushing,  the injector cam and plunger loading would be cantelevered. it is shown in the parts print. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on July 07, 2009, 01:09:36 AM
It's always suspicious when a part is left completely out of a machine.  That's more than forgetfulness, it's usually because it wont fit.   
  I'd check the run-out on the cam to be sure the cam isn't bent which would mean the engine would bind up in 'testing'.  Leave out the outboard bushing and the binding problem is solved.

My point is: Always try to figure out WHY a mistake is made so another one isn't made fixing it.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 07, 2009, 03:04:08 AM
hotater, go back a few posts. camshaft was bent, shaft is surprisingly flexable. looks to be made of steel, otherwise it would have surly snapped. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on July 07, 2009, 03:23:18 AM
Sorry I missed the history, Prof. 

All steel shafting is pretty flexible and the cross-hole tapered pins of the Listeroids (and I presume Redstone) dont stiffen them any, and it precludes using pre-heattreated shafting, too.
  O-1, oil hardening, high carbon, 'tool' steel is available in turn, ground and polished finishes in inch, metric, over and under-sized nominals in all sizes.  There are other alloys that would be even better for the job but the tapered pins would cause problems in 304 and 316 SS and some PH grades.

It would be fun to fit the lobes on a ten over 4130 shaft and oven braze them in place, then grind to finish dimensions on the bearing sufaces, and it wouldn't be too hard to do, but by the time you rebuild all the parts that need it you wont need the engine.  ;D
 
Ya gotta quit short of perfection before time runs out, but the amount of time taken in search of perfection determines the craftsman.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 12, 2009, 03:46:39 PM

  It looks as though the camshaft is at least 1 inch diameter. You would think that support for the IP plunger would not be necessary,but then again, it's best to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 14, 2009, 08:30:54 AM

   Picked up my Redstone today. First thing I did was remove the fly wheels. 5 minutes work!
   Removed the gear cover. Upon inspection, I found that the bushing for the cam was missing. The camshaft and camgear is MASSIVE, and in my opinion an outboard bushing is not necessary. I corrected the endplay with a brass washer, slightly domed. I domed the washer so that it would crush when I put the cover back on with a thinner washer on top of the domed washer. Then remove the cover and discard the thinner washer!

  I also noticed that the bearing for the counter balance shaft/oil pump was not turning. I t would turn back and forth about 3/16 inch. I slid out the inner race and found what appeared to be hard varnish like muck stuck on to the inner race. Cleaned and oiled it, and it turns freely now. I would like to know what kind of oil they use at the factory for Runup!!!! The bit of oil in the gearcase seemed thick, like gearoil and had a smell that reminds me of the coating one would use as a rust preventive.

  So far, no sand has been discovered . The machining seems to be very nice. Tomorrow I will tackle the sump and valve cover for a cleanup.

  The spare parts included: 2 sets of rings, a set of valves,a set of valve springs, head gasket plus a full set of gaskets, a spare injector pump and spare injector nozzle, big end shells and an opposite drive end main bearing.  The tool kit came with a handy box end hammer wrench for the flywheel nuts and even a suction cup thingy for lapping the valves! No operators manual with my Engine, but this unit is 'self explanitory'.

  A little more attention to detail at the factory, and this engine will be a World Class Low Speed Diesel.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on July 14, 2009, 09:10:58 PM
diesdave, good luck on new eng. glad to hear no sand. with cam cover removed, check to see the casting flashing removed below crank bearing.if not, the gear drive compartment will trap up oil and the gov would have to run submerged in lube oil. check gov real carefully. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 14, 2009, 09:53:04 PM

  The governor was initially stuck due to paint. Easily freed. I'll have to go back and look at the Gearcase,but there were holes going to the crankcase,just cant remember the exact location.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 18, 2009, 11:42:26 PM
  Did first smoke on July 16 after cleaning everything up. Found a few things that needed correcting.

  - As mentioned before, bushing missing for cam inside of gear cover. Have large BRASS Washer installed to eliminate end play. In my opinion, a bushing is not required here anyway. The camshaft and gear are BEEFY. I think that there was a problem originally with the Bushing lining up with the shaft. These gears are Straight Cut and there is very little sideways force on the brass washer.

  - Found some sand and swarf in the sump. I do like how the Oil Pickup Strainer is high up from the bottom of the sump.  My calculations on filling with oil show that you would have to use 4 Litres of oil before the strainer would start Sucking Air. The strainer has a fine mesh screen. Cleaning the sump was easy, as far as getting into the corners etc.

  -When I re-installed the Opposite Drive End Flywheel, I noticed it was rubbing on the gear case cover. I had to mill .060" off of the inside of the hub. Lucky I have a Mill Drill! The flywheel must have been dangerously close to gear cover originally. This is important as this rubbing would have eliminated required crankshaft endplay.

  -Upon examining the Gear Case Cover, I noticed that the outboard roller bearing inner race would not turn freely with finger force. It would move back and forth 3/16". I pulled out the inner race and found hardened rust inhibitor in little blobs between the rollers. Cleaned it and re-installed ,and it turned freely. Zinc content, if any, in this inhibitor, should be good for 'break-in'! The little bit of oil in the sump from the factory test run seemed to be thick, like gear oil, with a particular odour.

  -For 1st 'Smoke' I had engine sitting on 2 short lengths of spruce 2x4's, with #12x1" Robertson Screws and washers in the mounting holes. Engine rotated 30 degrees until a 2x4 found a high spot in the concrete, then unit remained stationary for 30 minutes, the duration of the test run! Excellent!!  If I tried this 'STUNT' with my Listeroid, it would have been out of the garage down the driveway and onto the street in the same amount of time!  Sorry! I can't help it, OK! ;D

  -A little more fine tuning at the factory for QA/QC is all that is needed to make these engines into a 'FIRST CLASS UNIT' 8)

  - Other small problems that can be eliminated very easily at the factory would be a little more attention to detail eg. paint work< stuck governor shaft, leaky drain cock on water pump, lack of any sort of fuel filter( $1.49,Princess Auto). The 6 feet of coolant hose gets soft and kinks when hot even with a gentle radius in the bend.  This is just small stuff. When you get everything up and running , you want to use Goodyear Hi- Miler hose or equivalent  anyway etc.

  - Now the BIG QUESTION!   Would I buy another Redstone if I needed another one? YES!!!

  -

 

 
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: hotater on July 18, 2009, 11:55:56 PM
Excellent report.  Well done.

My first 6-1 Listeroid was like a very top heavy whacky-packer.  (Jumping jack dirt tamper, for the rest of the world.)  With no way to hold it, catch it, or out run it.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 19, 2009, 02:16:41 AM
  Ha Ha Ha ! If China ever decides to invade India, the Chinese army don't know what there in for!

  Imagine trying to contend with a 'Pack of Listeroids' with reversed flywheels and all you got is an AK-47!   All you can do is aim for the Injector Pumps!

  I was running the Redstone today, bolted down to 2x4's on edge sitting on soft gravel. If that was a Listeroid it would be sunk down to the bottom of the Flywheels!

  I sure like the way the cylinder block,crankcase forms part of the sump. heat from the block dissipates into the HEAVY sump(76 lb's) . I have a closed loop (heater hose) for the cooling system and I ran the engine for 1 Hour. It was close to boiling point when I shut it down. The oil sump was painfull to the touch but you could keep your hand on it, so this temp was about 140F.
The oil in a Listeroid would get warm only in the same condition. Not good.  So one can assume that this heavy oil sump and 16 L of oil helps to cool the engine. It was 30C outside today!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: rcavictim on July 20, 2009, 01:00:45 AM
  Ha Ha Ha ! If China ever decides to invade India, the Chinese army don't know what there in for!

  Imagine trying to contend with a 'Pack of Listeroids' with reversed flywheels and all you got is an AK-47!   All you can do is aim for the Injector Pumps!

  I was running the Redstone today, bolted down to 2x4's on edge sitting on soft gravel. If that was a Listeroid it would be sunk down to the bottom of the Flywheels!

  I sure like the way the cylinder block,crankcase forms part of the sump. heat from the block dissipates into the HEAVY sump(76 lb's) . I have a closed loop (heater hose) for the cooling system and I ran the engine for 1 Hour. It was close to boiling point when I shut it down. The oil sump was painfull to the touch but you could keep your hand on it, so this temp was about 140F.
The oil in a Listeroid would get warm only in the same condition. Not good.  So one can assume that this heavy oil sump and 16 L of oil helps to cool the engine. It was 30C outside today!

Dave,

That's wunnerful.  BTW, you didn't forget that during the first minutes...hours on a new engine it is important to have a load on it and work it fairly hard in order to seat the rings against the bore?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 20, 2009, 03:09:52 AM


   I figure I did a good cleaning job, but in the event of the odd bit of dirt, its best to run the unit with no load for a while and let the oil wash out the internals more. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: rcavictim on July 22, 2009, 03:27:25 AM


   I figure I did a good cleaning job, but in the event of the odd bit of dirt, its best to run the unit with no load for a while and let the oil wash out the internals more. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other!

Well then, I think you insult the engine even more by not bringing it up to operating temperature during the hour tickover run.  Cold oil will not 'wash away' remaining debris as effectively as hot oil.  Also I disagree with your odds. I think fast application of heat and load is vitally important on fresh cylinders and rings, and doing this ring seating in a situation where the engine has reached operating temperature and is dimensionally stable at running temperature clearances.

Did you put a magnet in the sump yet?  This can catch a lot of 'fur' during the first break in hours, keeping it from circulating through the engine and bearings.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on July 22, 2009, 04:21:17 AM
the redstone like the changfa is a natural for full flow filtration as well as bypass filtration

all the passages are there, all one has to do is remove a plug and move it, tap and attach
some #4 JIC or equivalent fittings w/regulator and filter head of choice.

end of all issues relating to grit, grime, swarf and bird feathers.

gonna do it with my S195's, every one of them
and would do it to a redstone in a heartbeat if i had one.

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on July 22, 2009, 05:25:32 AM
Congrats Dave on the new engine!!!!

Thanks for the excellent report!

I'm excited to see one of these beasts in person...

Good luck with it!

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on July 22, 2009, 07:28:33 AM

  I built a subframe for the Redstone out of 4" Channel to attach to the Main Frame that the listeroid was mounted to. I got the listeroid out of the shed with the Crowbar and 2x4 method(MY BACK HURTS). Got it in the shop ok!  Amsoil rust preventive spray is an excellent lubricant for sliding heavy things over wood. The Egyptians used water grass from the Nile but I did not have any of this! Next,I skid the Redstone into the shed.

  RCAvictim;  The Redstone sump oil gets up to operating temperature quite fast. If you kook at the design of this engine you will see that the bottom part of the Cylinder Block and crankcase forms the upper part of the Sump. A lot of heat gets sucked into the oil even in a 'no load condition. eg. On this engine, an oil pan heater would also heat the cylinder block and the crankcase.

  I had to move the Redstone from the soft gravel onto the lawn to make room for getting the listeroid out. I started it up on the lawn temporarily and the whole unit was smoother still! I can't wait until I got mounted on the proper base.  I will report on that.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 06, 2009, 03:41:26 AM

  I finally got the Redstone and it's subframe on the proper mounting base. The steel mounting base sits on railroad ties.

  I decided to pour a concrete beam under the mounting base directly under the engine. Very steady at all speeds. I did the concrete thing because I noticed some shaking at various speeds. $30 worth of Ready-Mix,big deal!

   I have the 2' exhaust running slightly downhill through the wall into concrete blocks. From the pipe, the exhaust travels down and then up again through the blocks and then into a piece of 4" sch-40 pipe.  This makes a pleasant sound, which is slightly audible in the house.

   Tomorrow, I will take a break and paint the generator shed!  Next step is to run the glycol lines into the shed from my automatic coal stoker furnace. I will be setting this cooling system up so that the Redstone and shed can be heated up before starting, or the heat can be just left on all the time. Waste heat from the engine will be utilized for additional heat in winter. This arrangement will also allow me to filter and centrifuge heated waste vegetable oil. i have 2 -1000 Litre tote tanks in the shed also.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on August 06, 2009, 03:53:26 AM
Pics Dave!!!!!

Cool!

 :)
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project/ posting pictures
Post by: dieseldave on August 06, 2009, 05:03:03 AM

   I have no idea how to do this on this site.  I have no trouble e-mailing photos.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 13, 2009, 09:22:54 AM

  I just installed a Full Flow filtration system, with a pressure gauge. On startup I got 200psi oil pressure! This was at room temperature and running 5-30 oil for break in.

  After the engine and oil warmed up, it settled down to 40 psi. I need a bypass valve,around 80 psi or I might blow the can off the spin on filter. I wonder if these are available with NPT pipe threads. I would bypass the excess oil to my oil filler/drain arrangement by removing a 3/4" coupling and replacing it with a 3/4" 'T'
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 19, 2009, 05:33:05 AM

  I constructed a bypass valve using a 1/4 to 1/8 npt reducing coupling, a compression spring and a #6x3/8 robertson head sm screw.  Works good! pressure gauge goes up to 100psi cold and then settles down to 40psi when the oil warms up.

  Just started digging a ditch for the glycol lines from the shed to the coal stoker, and also a ditch to house for power cable.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 19, 2009, 10:43:30 AM
Dave:

can u detail a bit how you installed your full flow system?

how did you alter the  original system design?

thanks
bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on August 19, 2009, 07:09:46 PM
mobile bob, it sounds as though you have one of these engs on your work table, what say you? blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 19, 2009, 09:14:25 PM
nope, i am heavy into the s195 changfa both idi and di engine's

very similar lube system to the redstone,
i know how i plan to integrate full flow filteration, just curious how Dave did his
on the redstone.

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: prof.blink on August 19, 2009, 09:54:04 PM
m/b, by the by, i belted my 8 pole gen to the 195. nothing permenent, just clamped down on my t- slot lay-out table. running eng@1330 rpm to maintain 60 cyc. gov seems to be quick to respond w/o hunting or lag, i tryed dif combos of elect heaters and heavy pedestel grinders in an effort to make it misbehave to no avail. this is going home to heated garage for stand by. blink
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 19, 2009, 10:08:37 PM
tough little bastards aren't they?

oft overlooked and shunned because they are noisey, the little 195 is capable of doing some real work.

i have done everything i can think of to kill the one i have in testing, lost a few oem headgskts, but
got that resolved with a better gskt, and like the energizer bunny it just keeps right on doing what it does best.

i would expect no less from the redstone.

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 20, 2009, 06:56:10 AM

  Bypass system:   The filter housing has 1/2" npt inlet and outlet. On the inlet side is 2 - 1/8" npt taps for a pressure gauge. I used the other tap for the relief valve(homebuilt). I installed a 3/4 pipe T just below the fill plug for excess oil from the bypass. This setup allows me to change oil without making a mess.

  When the oil is hot, the bypass still bypasses a little oil. This pushes the oil in the bottom of the sump around a bit, instead of it just sitting there.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 20, 2009, 07:12:55 AM
Dave:

so its not a full flow system but rather the more common bypass system?

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 21, 2009, 03:25:49 AM

  it's full flow to the oil lines. The bypass ( pressure relief ) oil is returned via my fill/drain setup made from 3/4 pipe before the oil enters the filter.

  The spin on filter and housing is available at Princess Auto (Canada)
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 21, 2009, 03:59:32 AM
Dave:

what you are describing is a good bypass filteration system, and not a full flow system
unless i am missing something.

on the chinese single's changfa/redstone they use a gearotor oil pump driven off the countershaft
(lower shaft on those with twin counters), the pump sucks oil up through the sump as normal
and admits this pressurized oil via a passage in the block.. to the mainbrg.. crank.. big end. etc.

if one were to remove the pump, press in a plug into the passage, then drill the pump for an external pressure
line, to feed a filter and a bypass (the bypass exhaust could then be routed through a bypass filter and then dump back
into the crankcase) , the now filtered and pressurized/regulated oil is then routed to the end of the case where the crankcase cover opens to expose the crank, rod assy,,

along the edge of the crankcase under the gskt inline with the oil pump there is another plug, remove it
and insert the filtered/regulated oil into there, that is the rifle drilled passage to the  main brg that passes
right under the passage we plugged under the oil pump in the beginning

what you end up with now is a full flow filtration system that has all the oil that is pressurized and fed to brgs, bushings
etc fully filtered and regulated to whatever psi you want it to, and
you have all the bypass oil filtered as well in your bypass filter.

depending on the quality of filteration one could then be assured that all the oil being fed into the brgs is filtered to whatever micron
one thinks he wants.

with such a system there is no chance of an errant piece of swarf, sand, grit, bug, etc can foul a brg or scratch a crankjournal.

and before anyone goes ape about KISS and safety of external oil lines, i would not recommend steel lines because most folks
won't secure them properly, i would however suggest JIC hydaulic lines size #4 as being adequate and with a lifespan longer than
most of us want to wait for especially in standby/emergency use.  even when they do fail it is not catastrophic, they just start to
weep and drip for a long time before they start to dribble and then much longer before they squirt

a #4 hydraulic hose is good for ~4000psi iirc, certainly far more than the need.

i probaby would not go to the trouble of fitting all this up on a standby engine, but for an engine that will be running long hours
and if i were to do a complete tear down?? you betcha,,, thats the time to make the necessary changes.

i like the idea of getting the oil pressure down to something reasonable, it allows an off the shelf oil pressure switch to monitor
the pressure and shut down the engine if the pressure falls dangerously low.

fwiw

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 21, 2009, 04:01:15 AM
also for those that worry about broken hoses, use the screw on ends instead of the crimp swedged ends
that way you can reuse the hydraulic swivel ends and rebuild the hose later if need be.

also all jic fittings should be steel hydraulic fittings instead of the cheaper brass fittings, we don't need the added
pressure capability but the steel fittings take a lot of abuse without cracking.

i can't imagine all the necessary fittings and hoses to make up a full flow for a changfa or redstone would set a guy
back more than 20-30bucks

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 21, 2009, 05:43:51 AM

 No, it's full flow!  I come off the gear case cover,Through a 3/8 hose, into the filter housing, out of the filter into another 3/8 hose , then into the bango fitting that was originally attached to the gear case cover, then to the bearings and crank, rocker cover.

 The only oil that bypasses is the oil that goes through the pressure relief. This oil goes into the sump.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mobile_bob on August 21, 2009, 07:07:04 AM
you still do not have a full flow filtration system, you have to cut off the passage from the pump to the crankcase
and exit from the pump to the filter and then readmit back into the end of the crankcase. (or alternatively the gear cover)

what you have done will filter some of the oil, it will regulate the pressure, but the oil to the crankshaft and conrod big end will
still be supplied from the oem passage fed directly from the pump.

i may be wrong about the redstone oil passage routing, but i am pretty sure about this, i will recheck my pictures
and if you are right i will defer to you.

i know what you are describing will not work however on any of the changfa's, without plugging the block at the pump
discharge and rerouting the oil flow at that point.

so i guess until i can prove you wrong, we gotta accept your assertion as fact.

fair enough?

:)

bob g
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: SHIPCHIEF on August 21, 2009, 07:55:43 AM
I used JIC steel fittings in my ASHWAMEGH 25/2 to make a full fow system. I used bulkhead fittings to pass the oil out of the block to a heat exchanger in the hot water up-leg, then to a spin on filter. After that it went back into the block thru another bulkhead fitting and to the oil distribution manifold.
It takes some thought and some 'surgery', but I enjoyed it. Now the oil runs about 10 degrees cooler than the water. 180 F oil temp is good. Before, the oil never got warm enough to drive of the moisture.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 21, 2009, 03:24:37 PM

   The oil that goes to the bearings and rocker cover has to pass through a filter, a 10 micron Donaldson. What I have done,is no different in practice than what the Automotive Industry does. In a car, the pressure relief is just after the pump or inside the pump.  In my case, due to external oil lines(OEM), my pressure relief is on the outside.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: mike90045 on August 23, 2009, 06:16:38 AM
A question about the Redstones - what the drill for starting in cold weather ? keep the electric starter going... or a glow plug ?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on August 23, 2009, 06:35:09 AM

 I don't Know. My unit will be preheated from a Glycol Coal Stoker Furnace to around 150F., so I have not really thought about cold weather.

 Pre-Heated intake air might be the answer
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on September 28, 2009, 02:57:40 AM
For those without electricity in the engine shed a small plumbers propane torch flame into the intake manifold will do the trick.  Haven't done it on Penelope (yet) but have started others in up to -40 deg. that way. (tractors out in a field mostly)
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: oliver90owner on September 29, 2009, 07:23:57 AM
Apart from Stan's well tried and tested method, there are a range of cold-start devices.  Manifold heaters of different descriptions may be an alternative to a glow plug which may, or may not, be appropriate to the design.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: blhfla on October 01, 2009, 09:40:19 PM
I have 2 questions. One was already asked by Jens a while back, IIRC, which is how long does it take to remove/replace the head (and perhaps block) for cleaning and decoking purposes (as compared to a Listeroid)?

Another is perhaps more opinion/speculation based and I bet Jens is also interested in this, but what are the prospects for running WVO/UMO in these engines (with consistent and proper maintenance for running WVO/UMO, re: the first question), with the understanding that these are DI?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on October 12, 2009, 06:37:04 PM

   The cylinder head removal and replace would be about the same amount of time as a Listeroid.

   As far as being a DI engine and running on WVO or UMO, IDI engines seem to be better suited.

   Preheat Devices:   ;D I have my Redstone tied into the Hot Water Lines of my Coal Stoker. I can preheat my engine to about 140f along with my Veg oil tanks and fuel line. I ran the fuel line in between the Hot water lines ;D  Should be able to start and stop on WVO.

   Not to much progress lately as I am employed at the Shell Upgrader on construction and have fall cleanup in the yard.
   And YES!  This is the Upgrader that Greenpeace was occupying last weekend.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: blhfla on October 12, 2009, 07:44:40 PM

   The cylinder head removal and replace would be about the same amount of time as a Listeroid.


Thanks for the assessment, it's good to know from someone with one of these, as (IMO anyway) it is imperative to adhere to consistent maintenance (piston/ring/head/injector cleaning) when running WVO/UMO. For me, two hours or so of deposit/buildup removal and decoking every few weeks (based on contiguous service) is justifiable for free electrical power.

I plan to run Listeroid/Redstone engines on a WVO/UMO mix using a two tank fuel system, similar to the two tank WVO system I successfully run on my 97 VW Passat TDI. Switching fuel source should be very simple with a small D2/bioD (stock) fuel tank and elevated 55 gal drum WVO/UMO fuel tank feeding a manually operated valve. I would plumb a coolant fed FPHE similar to the one I use on my car to get the fuel up to operating temp (180-190F on my car), and/or possibly an exhaust cooler fed FPHE. 

My TDI is a modern DI design and runs fine on WVO (if done properly), but a WVO/UMO mix is potentially more complicated and IDI is generally more tolerant of such fuel sources, which is why (again, IMO) it will probably be even more important to observe diligent "WVO/UMO maintenance/cleaning" with the DI Redstones than the IDI Listeroids.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on October 12, 2009, 07:52:32 PM
Hopefully I'll get an invitation (hint hint  ;D) to see a Redstone running as I'll be in Ottawa the last 2 weeks of Dec and the first week of January.  ::)
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: JohnF13 on October 14, 2009, 02:10:41 PM
Stan;

I hear ya, but I have none left.  I was planning on keeping one for myself but someone "crying the blues" pried it out of my hands!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on October 14, 2009, 04:54:48 PM
Bummer!  :(  I was looking forward to seeing one.  Oh well, the grandkids are still in Ottawa so it's a certainty I'll be back before too long.  You've got a great set up John, it's worth anyone in the area seeing it for ideas.
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on November 25, 2009, 03:10:37 AM
Just wondering if there are any updates regarding the Redstone project.

With Joel hard to reach recently and John not having any stock, is the Redstone project history?

Would be too bad if it was...

Figured I'd ping this thread to see what folks know.

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on November 25, 2009, 04:11:45 AM
I was wondering too?  John, you've got 3 weeks to get one in so I can see it!  ::)
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Randybee1 on November 26, 2009, 05:41:34 PM
My Redstone won't be running till next spring. I built an I beam frame for it and mounted a 10 KW ST Head on it but I have not stripped it yet and spec'd it out. I have a CAT engine that I'm working on right now .. and a Lister 6/1

I wasn't really ready to buy a Redstone this past summer but figured I'd better get one before they were banned!  ;D
I'll probably be updating like crazy this cominig summer, as in I'll probably have lots of questions as I go!
Randy B
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on January 03, 2010, 08:18:23 AM
Update on my WVO powerhouse.

Got the 13 inch serpentine pulley from John at Woodnstuff. Got it mounted. This is a slick looking Pulley!

Got rid of the 'Junction Box ' on the 12kw ST Generator, and mounted a 8 x 8 x4 electrical box in it's place. Fitted the rectifier for the field into the box.  Mounted a breaker panel on the wall with a few 15 amp receptacles plus a 50 amp 120/240 range receptacle. The electrical wholesaler had the 'Kill A Watt's on sale for $35 , so I bought one.  This seems like a No Nonsense Gadget!

Clean up the Gen Shack tomorrow and fire the unit up!  As I mentioned earlier , the Gen Shack is heated from the hot Glycol from the coal stoker and the Engine is ready to fire up instantly on WVO ,as the Engine is already preheated at about 120F!


Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: wrightkiller on January 03, 2010, 02:07:36 PM
What no pictures ;D ;D?? ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on January 04, 2010, 06:09:55 AM
 PICTURES!  I don't quite understand how to post pictures on this site. BUT, I managed to post some pictures on another site.

You can look at them at www.ourlocal353.ca   In the Right hand column you will see  a heading 'Recent Posts' Click on to 'Environmental Doublespeak'.  I am Reply #1 and #4 for my Photos.  I will try to 'Bump' this topic so it stays near the top!

If someone wants to, they could download these photos and just title it ' DieselDaves Redstone & Generator' 
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Noisy Nova on January 07, 2010, 02:51:39 PM
Deisel Dave's      (I want one too)   ;D

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e251/noisynova/Seasonal/index4.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e251/noisynova/Seasonal/index2.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e251/noisynova/Seasonal/index.jpg)

(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e251/noisynova/Seasonal/index3.jpg)
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on January 08, 2010, 05:29:42 AM
Wow,

Nice installation...!   ;D

Regards,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on January 08, 2010, 05:37:17 AM

 Noisy Nova; Thanks for posting the Pictures. Still some finishing touches to do.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on January 08, 2010, 10:26:54 PM
Very nice!  How is the sound abatement in the shed?  Can you give a subjective assessment of how loud it sounds from outside with the door closed?
stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on January 09, 2010, 04:16:50 AM
Sound Abatement? The routing of the exhaust starts with a 2" thickwall from the engine thru the wall and into the concrete blocks, then down one side to the bottom block, then back up the other side and then thru the 4' thickwall to the outside. You can hear it thump inside the house. The webbing has been knocked out of the bottom block so that exhaust can pass to the other side.  The exhaust has a nice thump to it, and not noisy at all.

Most of the noise is from the air intake on the outside. It is an Air Cleaner assembly off a 305 GM. This sits under the 'Doghouse' that you see in the photo. This doghouse eliminates some of the noise. I want to be able to hear it run when I am inside the house.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: apogee_man on January 09, 2010, 11:33:12 AM
Dave,

Is it sitting on concrete or sand? 

What is the orange tapered block against or next to the flywheel for?

Is the thump you hear just intake or exhaust related, or do you also get the combustion event being transferred through the ground?  I'm thinking not since it's a horizontal, but figured that I'd ask.

Finally, what are you doing for a cooling system?

Thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: Stan on January 09, 2010, 02:59:42 PM
Sound Abatement? The routing of the exhaust starts with a 2" thickwall from the engine thru the wall and into the concrete blocks, then down one side to the bottom block, then back up the other side and then thru the 4' thickwall to the outside. You can hear it thump inside the house. The webbing has been knocked out of the bottom block so that exhaust can pass to the other side. The exhaust has a nice thump to it, and not noisy at all.

Most of the noise is from the air intake on the outside. It is an Air Cleaner assembly off a 305 GM. This sits under the 'Doghouse' that you see in the photo. This doghouse eliminates some of the noise. I want to be able to hear it run when I am inside the house.

OK, I gotcha.  It must make a nice sound from above.  ;D
Stan
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on January 09, 2010, 06:01:14 PM


 The Steel Frame sits on a combination of railroad ties and concrete, dry sand is just sitting over top of the dirt.

 That orange wedge is the factory 'Control panel'  It will eventually be GONE.

 The thump is mostly intake noise.  Ground does not vibrate at all.

 The cooling system is tied in with the return line on the coal stoker furnace. This way the engine is heated all the time for easy starting.
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: torquemada on February 06, 2010, 11:56:25 PM
thats a bit of a downer...as we would be looking for definitely one,but possibly two redstonesin the near future...if they are now unavailablewhat is on the market that will (reliably) drive a 10kw gen head.......cheers
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on February 19, 2010, 05:44:31 PM

  My setup can be viewed on Youtube.   type ' redstone 1 cyl diesel &12 kw'  It is running on WVO!

  I hope that the 'FEDERALIES' change their stance on these Engines!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: fabricator on February 20, 2010, 03:00:53 AM
That is one great setup Dave, absolutely awesome, do you know id there are going to be any redstones available any time soon?
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: dieseldave on February 20, 2010, 05:07:02 PM
You are in the US. Contact George at Utterpower.com. I hope more  Redstones are coming!
Title: Re: The Redstone Diesel project
Post by: fabricator on February 20, 2010, 05:17:56 PM
Thanks Dave.