Lister Engine Forum

Lister Engines => Listeroid Engines => Topic started by: Copybell on April 08, 2006, 01:33:41 AM

Title: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Copybell on April 08, 2006, 01:33:41 AM
Guys,
   I have a Satyajeet brand 20/1 engine running at 510 R.P.M. coupled to a 15KW ST type generator head.  I would like to have better speed control than I am able to get using the stock governor.  I am thinking about something along these lines:  A sensor to sense the flywheel speed coupled to a computer which would adjust a linear actuator or servo mechanism coupled to the fuel rack.  Does anyone know of a company that has 'plug and play' components that can accomplish this?  Or, has anyone built a system using readily available components that would be kind enough to share with the board?  The system I have outlined seems very complicated to me, if someone knows how to accomplish the same goal with less complexity, please advise.

Best regards,
Copybell
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Jim Mc on April 08, 2006, 04:32:00 AM
Oh, come on now.  Computer controlled linear actuators??? That ain't right on a Listeroid.

First, how is the regulation now?  Why do anything at all?  May be that you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist.  Say the speed droops from 62 Hz at no load to 58 at full load.  Who cares?  I can't think of a typical domestic load that would have trouble with that.

More droop than that?  I'm guessing you may need a longer, weaker governer spring.  Not sure what the rated speed on that engine is, but I suspect it was considerably higher than 510 rpm.  If you've not fiddled around with different springs, that's the first place to start.




Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: hotater on April 08, 2006, 04:45:57 PM
Copybell---

It sounds like you have the wick turned so far down the governor weights are the wrong weight to control it.  The governors are designed to be optimum at a given speed, usually a couple hundred higher than you're running.  As it is now the weights are trying to balance against the return spring at a place in their rotation that's unstable and hard to hold.

  You would need to add weight to the governor to stabalize at the lower rpm.  One way to do that is drill each weight and epoxy tight fitting plug(s) of tungsten carbide in the hole.  Carbide is about 17 times heavier than cast iron.

I thought about casting lead in the holes as a cure, too.   Pre-heat, flux and pour.  It should make a weight that won't loosen up or come apart, but I'd put the hole(s) where centrifical force doesn't have an effect.

I don't know how to calculate what's needed for what rpm and trial and error would be hard work.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Jim Mc on April 08, 2006, 07:00:47 PM
Carbide is about 17 times heavier than cast iron.


Huh?  Carbide may be dense, but no way is it 17 times that of cast iron. 

It'll be a heck of a lot less effort to work on the spring first.  Lower speed needs a weaker spring.  Worked on my Listeroid just fine...
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: hotater on April 08, 2006, 11:23:14 PM
You're right!  Slightly more than twice.  Iron = 7850 kg per cubic meter.  (water = 1000).  Tungsten is 7850 and lead is 11340.  :-\

The leverage and mechanical advantages change with the position of the weights.  The greatest force with least movement is at the 'sweet spot' where balance is achieved.  Changing to a lighter spring will govern the engine but at the expense of stability, especially the important transition between lots of load and suddenly no load.  Weak  or mismatched springs  can cause a run a way under those conditions.

I've found that one run a way triples the mechanic's caution level.   :o :o
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: kyradawg on April 10, 2006, 03:41:04 AM

Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Doug on April 11, 2006, 03:14:26 AM
Ouch thats going to be some mind bendingly expensive stuff.

I used to buy and sell surplus automation equipment as well as parts sensors and related geewizzery.
You could for a song buy a Modicon 984 compact, assorted parts down load the free software from Schiender electric and hobble together something crude to work with the factory govenor...
This also holds the promiss of monitoring other functions as overtemp, low fuel ect.
Programing is bear unless your a fast self learner or take a night course at a community college.

Ar this time I am not selling anything here. In the past too many people have bought stuff from me at sweet heart deals and not used it as promissed in their non Listeroid projects.


Here's a good example of a 1500 + controller when new going for less than dirt (I have some of these nice little units)

http://cgi.ebay.com/LIKE-NEW-MODICON-SCHNEIDER-AUTOMATION-I-O-UNITS_W0QQitemZ7608099821QQcategoryZ97184QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Modicon-984-145-with-I-O_W0QQitemZ7607675397QQcategoryZ97184QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem




Last time I saw one of thee for sale it was stolen property from my employer. The guy never got caught.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AEG-MODICON-BRIDGE-PLUS-NW-BP85-002-MODBUS-PLUS_W0QQitemZ7607000895QQcategoryZ97184QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Worth about 2000 CDN new




Doug
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 11, 2006, 03:40:12 AM
All these bring back old memories! I remember the old modicons, mako 4's and mako 5's from the late 70's and early 80's. My company sent me to school on these when I was working as an electronics tech about the time these were first used in plastic injection molding machines. Back then all machines ran on relays, and would have 4 to 6 panels full. Solid state logic cards reduced it to 2 panels. After the first "plc's" were installed they still had all of the panels, but all but one was empty! It was amazing that all of the logic instructions were contained in that one "brick"! They were huge compared to what we have today but back then these were a marvel of engineering! Today, a pico or nano plc contains more instruction sets than all of those old panels together and fits in the palm of your hand. With plc's, if you can imagine it, there is a way to do it!

Mike Montieth
Listeroids/USA
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: kyradawg on April 11, 2006, 06:43:53 PM


Peace&Love :D, Darren
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: snail on April 12, 2006, 01:19:54 AM
G'Day all,
          At 3am this morning I was lying awake thinking about lister governors.How sad is that? No wonder my wife just shakes her head and walks away... ;)
          Allow me to pontificate. This may not be correct and I'm certainly open to correction but there must be something in this.
         Imagine a lister with big holes around the governer weights.With the spring removed, reach into the (Stationary ;D) motor and move the governor weights outward to simulate increasing speed . What happens (Obviously ::) is that the injector rack moves "in" to reduce the fuel. As there appears to be a sweet spot in the movement of the weights, this must correspond to a given rack position.We are fortunate(?) on our engines that we have miles of external linkage to play with. Would it be possible to vary the length of the linkage so that the weights are in their optimum position for the usual load.The spring would then be modified/adjusted to give the correct RPM.
        My thoughts(guesses ;) on this were sparked by the fact that the Lister L(petrol) version was rated at anywhere between 450 and 650 RPM without changing the governor weights.I don't know if any of this is of any practical use but it's just my 2c worth(and of course we all know that 2c Australian is worth less than 2c US! ;)

Cheers,

Brian
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 12, 2006, 03:18:52 AM
YES!!! the linkage length is critical. There are two items that come into play, centrifugal force increases with the rpm, AND the effective travel of the governor changes with the rpm. Imagine a pendulum. The length of the pendulum has a lot to do with the travel, but we can't adjust this in a Lister. What happens is at low speeds the governor pendulum is at rest near the centerline of the pendulum. As speed increases it does not take much to effect a large movement of the linkage as the weights fly outward. As speed increases the pendulum weight flies outward in proportion to the speed, however, the movement is much less as the speed increases. (the weights rise a lesser amount in height than they do at slower speeds) All of this is compounded by the fact that increased speed results in more centrifugal force, along with the resulting change in height of the pendulum weights. These 2 factors, working together, is what determines the sweet spot, which will be different even on similar engines. Shortening the linkage rod too much will result in hunting, (the weights are biased toward the lower portion of the height-arc) while longer linkage will result in a lazy governor regulation. Turn your clevis in or out 1/2 turn at a time to find your "sweet spot". My GM-90 holds within 1/10 of one cycle within its load range with this method. Heavy starting loads do change the rpm slightly, about 2 hz., but it quickly recovers without overshoot or hunting.

Mike Montieth
Listeroids/USA
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Doug on April 12, 2006, 04:24:56 AM
This happens in the Onan CK and CCK engines too, and many others I suspect.

Doug
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Tom on April 12, 2006, 04:24:04 PM
Hello Mike,

I've read the same info that you've posed before and done some experimenting with the linkage on my engine and never found the spot where it hunted. What I did find is that if the clevis is set to far out I won't get full rack and with it too short I can't lift the shut off lever. However at either extreme no hunting. Since I am certain that you probably know what you are doing  ;) do you think there might be a problem in my governor system and if so where should I look. Mine currently is a bit lazy and I have a bigger fluctuation in voltage then I would like between full and no load.

Also thanks for sharing info here and good luck with the EPA stuff.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 12, 2006, 05:57:40 PM
I personally have not worked on an ashmawaugh (spelling?) but if you are not getting the results then I'd think the most likely scenario is the lack of governor weight or that models geometry. I've been studying up on steam engine governors lately. They were developed to a high state before their eventual demise. I'm considering building an external flyball governor based on the steam engine principles to see just how far I can take it. I'll drive it off of the end of the camshaft and rework the governor linkage to suit it. I won't have time to fool with it until school is out next month.

Mike Montieth
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: sid on April 13, 2006, 01:21:23 AM
mike// your idea sounds interesting with the fly ball governor//I meet a man in portland indiana that takes an b/s engine and modifies it and put a brass flyball governor on itand turns it in to a hit and miss engine/ he takes a $100.00 junker engine and when he finishes with it sells it for $1400/ he has a waiting list for them/ when he finishes with them you could not tell they are a briggs and stratton/ I will see if i can find a picture of one of them// by the way /// how are you able to ship so cheap thru the mail// I know that 40 lb pully that you sent me was less than 10.00// let me in on your secret//sid
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: t19 on April 13, 2006, 02:10:56 AM
I personally have not worked on an ashmawaugh (spelling?) but if you are not getting the results then I'd think the most likely scenario is the lack of governor weight or that models geometry. I've been studying up on steam engine governors lately. They were developed to a high state before their eventual demise. I'm considering building an external flyball governor based on the steam engine principles to see just how far I can take it. I'll drive it off of the end of the camshaft and rework the governor linkage to suit it. I won't have time to fool with it until school is out next month.

Mike Montieth
Lets see.... you are working on the EPA thing, you are or where working on a ring for using electric start and now you are working on this at the same time teaching at school

One Question

Have you cloned yourself??  Because to do all that I would have to perfect the 38 hour day!!!

Good on ya

Cheers

Andrew
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Doug on April 13, 2006, 02:41:21 AM
You would be suprised what you can do if you budget time....
When I'm on afternoon shift I'm an electrician, but I've rebuilt a lawn tractor, made blades for a wind mill and now I'm making a Pioneer class gassifier. My home is a shambles and yard is a mess, but then I have a little one to amuse on my own time lol.

Doug
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Copybell on April 13, 2006, 07:12:26 AM
Tom,
   I have an idea that my linkage and Mike's linkage are not the same.  I suspect my linkage and your linkage is the same, because I get the same results as you when I adjust the adjustable clevice rod.  In my mind, I am unable to see how adjusting this rod could change the sensitivity of the governor, however I can see how lengthening the arm of the lower belcrank and re-attaching the adjustable clevis rod would make the governor more sensitive.  Like you, I think Mike knows what he is talking about - probably words are failing us!

Copybell
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 13, 2006, 01:25:39 PM
In the past I also made kits for the governors that also lengthened the lower governor arm. It worked, but at that time I really didn't understand the mechanics and the physics involved with designing a governor system. After delving into the subject more deeply and researching the reasoning "why" these things work I now understand the underlying principles of their operation. It gets pretty deep into theory, as well as mechanics and math. In regards to governor regulation I canned the original linkage on the injection pump and redesigned it so that it no longer relies on the pinned yoke and clevis sliding in and out of a hole in the upper link. I eliminated all slop in the linkage and my design is rock solid. it gives total freedom of movement with no play. I will be retrofitting all of my engines with this design if I can get any more.

On the EPA front, I am making good progress with my testing. I now have a 10/1 that is easily compliant with Tier 1, and am close to meeting Tier 2 ratings. If I do get more engines the parts will be sealed with a stamp and any sign of tampering will void the settings, and MY liability. These engines will have considerable modifications, many of which are internal and not readily apparent to the naked eye. I have been in contact with one of my suppliers and he is coming to the US to review my findings and applications next month when my teaching job is over for this semester. In the past I have imported both IDI and DI engines from several manufacturers and will be dealing primarily with only those who have the capacity to implement the modifications. Some companies in India only assemble parts into engines, while others build theirs totally in house and have the capacity to change whatever is needed.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: oldnslow on April 13, 2006, 03:29:32 PM
Mike, have you (or anyone) tried using a generic governer, like a pierce, instead of building a whole new one?
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Copybell on April 13, 2006, 04:18:43 PM
Mike,
   Would you be kind enough to snap a picture of your fuel linkage setup?  I would like to try and copy it.

Copybell
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 13, 2006, 09:52:16 PM
That is precisely why I won't divulge details or photos. In the past when I did my designs were instantly copied, and it did me no good whatsoever. I've been doing the work and other people and dealers copy it. I never even so much as got the credit for coming up with the designs, much less any financial reward. My new innovations will either be patented and/or copyrighted. A few examples are my previous governor kits, serpentine pulleys, thermostat installations, ect. I've got a lot of changes and devices that I'm developing, and will not announce or sell them until they are secure.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: t19 on April 13, 2006, 09:57:12 PM
then i guess the correct question should be, when will it be for sale?
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Copybell on April 14, 2006, 12:33:50 AM
Mike,
   Sorry, I guess I didn't think about all of the work you would have put into your linkage setup.  I tend to look at these Listeroids as a fun hobby not as a business.  It never entered my mind that there would be enough demand for these things to make it economically viable to apply for patents, etc. and make a go of it as a business.

Best regards,
Copybell
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Tom on April 14, 2006, 02:19:42 AM
Well one way to think of it is that if you give all this nice stuff to people who already have engines is that you will be the first one they recommend when a friend is in the market. I say this as someone who has a patent. There also will be a number of people who like what they see and don't have the abilities to build one so they will buy one from you.

Any way thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on April 14, 2006, 04:14:47 AM
I didn't mean to sound like a smart alec, but what I'm doing is developing a new model of the Lister type engine that I can have certified so I can market it for a few years, at least. I can't be giving away all of my information before I get the project finished. It will be basically a "high tech" lister that still looks like an old one, except for the controls. In the past I would spend time and $$$$$ to get the models I was dealing with up to snuff, and then someone would jump in and try to take the model line over. Its happened twice already and I'm tired of doing the preliminary work while others jump on for a free ride after the hard work and expense is done. There are over 200 manufacturers in India building these engines so why jump in on the one or two lines I'm working with the manufacturers on? Why can't they just develop their own engine lines like George B. did? George did his own homework on his engines, and I am doing mine. In due time a superior engine will be produced by this process.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: solarguy on April 14, 2006, 03:38:12 PM
All the power to ya Mike.

Keep us posted on progress.

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Tom on April 14, 2006, 05:19:33 PM
Hello Mike,

I was in reference to the request for the governor linkage picture, not the new engine design.

As far as the Indian manufacturers, how can you keep them from ripping each other off? I've had business dealings with these folks in the past and that kind of behavior seems part of the culture. Good luck on the EPA design, I am curious to see if your changes will result in a more efficient engine.  Do you have an ETA for product for sale? And the really really big question, will you be able to sell them in CA?
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Mr X on April 15, 2006, 04:33:12 PM
Not quite on topic but sorta I installed my govenor up grade from John Ferguson. I fired up the roid warmed it up and put a load of 1500 watts. went from 61 cycles to 58 and held there. Installed up grade. Set cycles 61, placed 1500 watt load went to 58 cycles and climed to 59.5 and held. Dont forget I have a 3600 rpm head [ to start a new argument again, jump in here mad bomber.]
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroil on May 02, 2006, 01:26:23 AM
Have you considered a cruise control unit off an automobile it has a linear actuator a computer to operate it and picks up its signals from the speedo or rev counter electronic pulses a magnet or 2 could be glued onto the alternator pulley and a hall effect switch used to provide pulses for the triggerwire to the computer these units are very tough they are made to live in an engine compartment
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: kpgv on May 02, 2006, 01:52:20 AM
Referenceing governor speed from the "driven" element is a BAD IDEA.
Example:
1) Belt Breaks, (Driven element SLOWS down).
   a) Sensor sees low speed, (Trys to SPEED UP driven element).
       1) ENGINE OVERSPEED!!!!! :o :o :o
           (Outcome):
           a) Got there in time to do EMERGENCY SHUTDOWN (Need Hot water for "laundry"). :P
           b)............ :'(

BE SAFE

Kevin       
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroil on May 02, 2006, 02:21:09 AM
Good thinking i hadnt thought of that engine
cheers Mick
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: bitsnpieces1 on May 21, 2006, 01:37:48 AM
  Just put your magnets directly on the crankshaft.  If it breaks you have other things to worry about. 
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on May 21, 2006, 04:15:52 AM
If anyone is interested in a cruise control type setup check out the CA3228 Integrated Circuit chip. These are very inexpensive and were the basis for earlier cruise controls. New model cars have a dual feedback source which made these chips obsolete. They work well with our applications however. You'll need some electronics background to implement them in a governor system.

Mike
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: oldnslow on May 21, 2006, 11:15:22 PM
Mike, is there a source on the web for basic info on how to run chips like these? One time I fixed up an old 73 Dart with a slant 6. Just for fun I took the cruise control setup off an 80's Diplomat (6cyl) and put it on the Dart. There was a whole line of them at the Upull-it and I had many examples of how to hook it up right. It worked great. All I had to do was make sure the linkage was correct and hook up the sensors and the "control box" and get an original-looking switch for the steering column.  My wife thought I was a genious.

I agree like many of you guys that a solid state system would be a great idea and using older parts can be extremely economical and effective. Am I being too naive? Any links would be great, THANKS.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: mjn on May 22, 2006, 06:02:00 PM
Google turns up lots of hits, but most of them want you to pay to download the datasheet.  Here is a link to one that does not charge for the datasheet for the CA3228.  http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets2/11/115864_1.pdf

According to the datasheet,  this is an obsolete product.  I searched digikey, newark, and jameco, and none of them even know about the part.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Doug on May 22, 2006, 07:53:00 PM
This is being made more complicated than needed.

Doug
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: solarguy on May 22, 2006, 09:10:00 PM
Dear Doug,

If you know of a reliable, easy to implement, inexpensive way to get this done, we would be eternally greatful.

We'd get you a plaque.

We'd even send you birthday cards.

I'm all ears,

troy
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Doug on May 24, 2006, 02:52:47 AM
I sugested a current sensing relay to drive a to pull in a secondary spring a while back this isn't stepless but it will bring up the rpms. The real issue is the set up and fit and finish of the factory govener, and lots of people around here have made sugestions about how to improve there performance.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass but simple is usualy better. Sure I could program a PID loop and use a 948 compact to do all kinds of cool stuff with engine but who wants to get a lap top out at 3 AM when the power is out because the system has become unstable and is hunting?

Doug   
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: solarguy on May 24, 2006, 04:51:59 PM
Dear Doug,

We are agreed that the mechanical govenor will do a lot for you if you blueprint it to work as designed.  I suppose some would like an add on electronic gizmo that magically makes up for slop in the linkage and binding and whatnot.  Even if the device were properly designed from a electronics standpoint, slop and binding will still make it less than perfect or even unworkable.

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Joe on May 29, 2006, 02:33:36 AM
George B. has posted the details of his gov control kit ...can't get any more simple than that...

Thanks again George...another gem of wisdom...

http://utterpower.com/gov_mod.htm

Joe
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: Tom on May 29, 2006, 02:59:29 AM
Ah ha, the adjusting rod is part of the fulcrum in the Indian design. I've found my governor is lazy too. I'm going to do this fix.
Title: Re: SPEED CONTROL
Post by: listeroidsusa on May 29, 2006, 05:20:32 AM
I've got a governor fix that takes ALL the slop and binding out of the factory linkage, I remove it and throw it away! I'll post some photos of my setup on coppermine tomorrow if it will cooperate. There is an easy and very effective solution for the sloppy sliding yoke design of the original Lister and its varients. It'll cost you around $10 or less to implement. George's fix is also effective and a good idea. Put both of ours together and I think you'll find the governor works even better. Photos to come tomorrow.

Mike