Lister Engine Forum
Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Changfa Engines => Topic started by: pigseye on March 29, 2006, 08:00:52 PM
-
Hi Guys,
Brand new member but have been lurking for a few weeks.
I want to build a diesel generator but wanted to do it a little cheaper than I could with a Lister. I've read about the issues with non-Changfa engines and was wondering if anyone had experience with this brand and model.
Changzhou Diesel Engine Model 1125GM
There on ebay being sold by a seller called Motors, generators, and stuff. So far, the seller, Mohamed has been great and very patient and answering a lot of questions. I do understand that most vendors can provide tremendous support before the sale and that can taper off quickly after the engine is delivered but he does come across as a stand up guy.
After reading the issues that people ahve had with non-Changfa engines, I'm more concerned with the Changzou brand.
Any insight to this engine and company would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Pigseye
-
Pigseye & list,
All reports on the Changfas and the various Chinese Yanmar clones have not been good.
1. Too noisy
2. Poor supply of parts
3. Shake themselves to bits
4. Wreck marriages
Well I just added point 4 because all diesel engines do that ;-)
Look at the total life of the engine. A 650rpm Listeroid will far out last a Changfa.
Spend your money up front on a quality product and not have to replace it after 2 years.
Just my thoughts,
Ken
-
Pigseye & list,
Further to what I said in the last post...
If you buy a Listeroid and it does break down, there are at least another 240 of Us Listeroid enthusiasts out here to help you fix it ;-)
Birds of a Feather......
Ken
-
Ken,
Would really like to hear all the reports on the "not good" Changfa engines.
Would also like to know if your statements are based on actual reports, or "just your thoughts", as you state.
"shake themselves to bits" sounds like the comment of a VERY UN-knowledgeable person.
Changfa only makes a million or so small diesel engines each year.
-
All reports on the Changfas and the various Chinese Yanmar clones have not been good.
The engine mentioned isn't a yanmar clone, it's one of those 2200RPM units......
I have non-Changfa Yanmar clones with 1000-1500+ hours on them, so I wouldn't say that they are all unreliable.
There is a tradeoff between century long reliability and the fact that you dont need a forklift to move your genset.
Steve
-
Hi Guys,
I do agree that Lister will last longer and is a better engine, but I'm wondering how much better than the Changzou 1125?
Is there anyone in this forum that has used this engine or at least an engine from this manufacturer?
Thanks
Pigseye
-
Fuddyduddy, Trigzy & List;
Firstly I do not like being refererred a very Unknowledgeable person, directly or indirectly, nor do I need a fork lift truck every time I choose to move my engines.
We all have our specialist subjects, and in the same day that I might grind valves on a 330kg Lister or change a cylinder on a 55 year old Lister, I may have spent the morning designing a 6 layer pcb, populated with components to the density of 36 per square inch, for a major American telecom company.
I have a first class honours degree in electronic engineering obtained from a British University in 1986, and nearly 20 years as an engineer in industry. I have been working with engines, and electric vehicles for 20 years, and been starting diesels and compression ignition engines since the age of 8 or 9.
In the last 5 years I have worked in mainland China, Singapore, Hong Kong, Manilla, Malaysia, Los Angeles, Northern California, Minnesota, Texas and New Mexico.
Regarding engine life - 1500 hours is only 5 months at 10 hours a day for a generator engine, it really is not an indication of long term reliability.
There is a fundamental difference between a Changfa and a Lister, and that's about 30 years and 150 kilos in weight.
The Lister started life in the 30's as a stationary engine, intended to be bolted down in a barn. The Changfa evolved as a portable engine, designed to be used on mobile agricultulral equipment such walking tractors (rotovators) and also stationary machines such as rice hullers, threshing mills, seed presses etc, when China agriculture mechanised in the 1960s.
The Lister became predominant in territories wher there had been a British influence, India, Burma, Iran, Africa, Australia, New Zealand whilst the higher speed and lighter weight Changfa became the de-facto small engine in the whole of south east Asia.
To compare a Lister with a Changfa is not a particularly valuable exercise, sure they both will spin a generator, but you are approaching the application from different ends of the spectrum.
With any extensively copied engine, there are bound to be good ones and bad ones, Listers and Changfas alike.
Some of the Chinese diesels have a very poor reliability record.
Having travelled and worked extensively in China and Singapore, I have come across a fair few 165,175,185 and 195 engines in my time. I have stripped down 1 and 2 cylinder diesels in a Chinese workshop in morning temperatures of 90F. I know all about getting my hands dirty and getting and engine running again, in primitive conditions with few tools and few spare parts. Not easy when there is no electricity and some days no running water. There were times that I just longed for the simplicity of the Lister CS.
I accept that Changfa are one of the better makes coming out of China, now that their quality control is finally improving.
Clearly with an engine revving at 3 times the rpm of the Lister 6hp, you are going to get increased engine wear. You only have to look at the engine weight and the hp to see which is the less stressed engine.
Here are a couple of reports I read recently
Noise and Vibration http://utterpower.com/jeffm.htm
Reliability http://www.libertymls.com/gulch/cenergy.html
Perhaps I may be biased in favour of the traditional slow speed Lister type engines. I have 5 or 6 right now; the earliest is dated 1944 and is in full working condition. My regular generator engine is much newer, that one dates from 1950.
I accept that you are clearly a Changfa enthusiast, but my money, for long term reliability, and low noise, and ease of repair, and fuel economy, and longevity has got to be on the Lister CS.
Perhaps I should have said on closing,
Just my experience,
MRL.
-
lol, glad I'm not the only crusty opionionated git with a short fuse on here.... ;D
-
OK Ken,
Sorry, you post crap, and then don't even bother to reply to a direct query.
One of the two sources you refer to says " injectors, bearings, bushings,and such were way below the usual specifications"; AND, they are referring to a "China Diesel", NOT a Changfa. George at utterpower says about a Changfa, "Changfa is a Multi-National Company making use of superior parts from countries outside China. This is an important difference." Sorry you don't even know that NOT SO SMALL difference. Yes, Changfa outsources bearings, piston rings, etc, etc.
The OTHER source you mention (utterpower) quotes Jeff, who says "I found a 3KW genset powered by a China diesel 175 engine, rated at 6HP and 2600 RPM. It worked well, but it was VERY noisy and vibrated a lot. I built a somewhat soundproof enclosure for it, which kept the noise down to 54dB as measured outside my garage. The vibration was still a problem, though. Bolts came loose, pipe fittings broke, and I could see it was going to be a high maintenance machine. An added note from George; this 175 does not have counter balances like the 185s and up." AND AGAIN, Ken, you note please it does not mention Changfa.
For your extensive experience you wrote: " I have come across a fair few 165,175,185 and 195 engines in my time. I have stripped down 1 and 2 cylinder diesels in a Chinese workshop in morning temperatures of 90F. I know all about getting my hands dirty and getting and engine running again, in primitive conditions with few tools and few spare parts. Not easy when there is no electricity and some days no running water." And again, Ken, no mention of a Changfa.
Please allow me the favor of relating a short story which was ONE of MY experiences with Changfas. Purchased a Changfa 22 HP diesel to replace a tired four cylinder IHC-UC60 running an American brand 4X54 edger on the side of Elk Mountain, New Mexico, where I had one of my sawmills set up to saw fire-burned timber from the White Sands fire. 10,400 feet elevation, damned cold at night, damned hot in the daytime.
The edger was Ernie 's responsibility. He was a knowledgable older gentleman from McCall Idaho with a lot of sawmill experience. First problem was, the new engine "smoked " the 2BX Goodyear drive-belt. We ended up having to use a 3BX, and really stretch it tight in order to hold the torque that engine had.
The second problem was, it worked our tails off!!! It went so fast, and did so much, the three of us almost doubled our normal daily output!
The third problem was discovered at the end of the first day. We always did the next day's PM (preventive maintenance, for Ken and those of you in Loma Linda), and at the end of that day, Ernie said,"something's wrong with that new engine". I said "oh no, now what?!" He said, "it only used 5 quarts of fuel!"
We ran the SH** out of that engine all summer, and just could not get it to use more than two to three gallons of diesel, even on the longest, hardest days.
Ken, I put about 5,000 hours on that engine without a hiccup. Then, when I sold that sawmill, edger, etc, sold the Changfa to a man north of Spokane Washington who used it for many years in the summer to run an irrigation pump. Finally, he froze it hard one winter, and busted the snot out of it. He thought he had put around 15,000 hours on it. No way to tell for sure.
Oh, Ken, we never did have electricity OR running water up there on Elk Mountain. Does that count??
Yes, the Listers and Listeroids are superior for some applications. So are Cummins and Nordbergs. But I never did lump a Yugo in with a BMW or a Cadillac.
Ken, you did, and by doing so, proved that you are a "very Unknowledgeable person".
-
Well............I guess we know better than to push that button anymore.......
It usually takes a dozen or two posts back and forth to piss people off …that whole group dynamics/keyboard bravado kind of thing…5 posts…that has to be a record…
Joe
-
It's REALLY, REALLY easy to make Joel mad. :o He's not a bad person though, just a little cranky sometimes.
-
Guys,
This is not where I wanted this thread to go.
Please let me restate, I think the lister is probably a better and longer lasting engine. But let's face it, the investment costs are very high and if you're not ready to build a mission critical generator, maybe a lister is a bit of over kill.
There are many things I get interested in and then later lose interest. I would not want to purchase a Lister and then lose interest. You buy a lister and you've made a commitment. So for my purposes if I can purchase an engine for 1/3 or less of the cost of a Lister, it might be a worthwhile investment to see if I get the "bug." If I don't get the bug, I have a smaller, lighter engine to store or sell.
I wish I could find a Changfa 1125 engine, because I would probably just buy it and let the experimenting begin. But I can't find one so I'm asking does anyone have experience with a Changzhou Engine?
If you do, your comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Pigseye
-
Changzhou is the name of city that Changfa is located in, and there are also several other manufacturers / distributors there. If you have the full name of the company, and maybe the source you are buying it from, I can do some looking around for you and see if I can find anyone with experience with them.
Steve
-
Hello Steve,
The seller is on Ebay and his store is called motors_generators_and_stuff. The person I've been working with via email is Mohamed. Like I said earlier, he has been a real pleasure and has been very patient and answered all my questions.
Here's the link: Item number 7752896278
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7752896278&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D7752896278%2509%26fvi%3D1
If you could find out if this is a CHangfa engine, I would probably buy it for my first diesel experiment
I want to hook this up to a 12 to 15kW gen head direct couple.
Thanks,
Steve
-
from the ad
Continuous Output 23.00 HP @ 2200 rpm
Maximum Output 30.00 HP @ 2200 rpm
that's a neat trick without a blower or nitrous
run away
-
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I've been looking at ChangFa's as I have a 185 on the way (apropos to the earlier posts on the thread, the weight/size and logistics of transporting and using a Listeroid don't fit my situation for the next 2-5 years, so the Changfa is a better fit).
A couple thoughts
- www.changfa.cc is the ChangFa site for the engines referenced by George, Joel etc.
- The only 1125 model on the ChangFa site does NOT match the specs in the posted ad
- no electric start
- different displacement
- power numbers don't match (although there are inconsistencies within the Changfa numbers)
- Given the type of pricing I've seen for 'true' Changfa's, $700 for a 23 HP with electric start strikes me as very low.
So, all things considered, I don't think that the 'safe money' would be on this being a 'true' changfa. It may still be a decent engine, though.
-
Hi dwkdnvr,
Thanks for doing the research. I didn't think this was a changfa engine but now it's confirmed.
The real question now is it a good engine? Hard to tell without purchasing one and taking a $700 plus shipping chance.
Hi Guy,
yup not sure what they even mean with 23hp continuos and 30hp max. How does that work (he asked sarcastically)?
Thanks,
Pigseye
-
Dude.... you can get a good listeroid for 250 more. GET THE LISTEROID!! I really like mine and I'm pretty hard to please. You will come out ahead.
-
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I've been looking at ChangFa's as I have a 185 on the way (apropos to the earlier posts on the thread, the weight/size and logistics of transporting and using a Listeroid don't fit my situation for the next 2-5 years, so the Changfa is a better fit).
How do you like your 185 so far? I've just completed a setup with mine I orderd from John Alvin. I was going to get a 6/1, but "missed the boat" and Joel and George ran out of stock, along with everyone else that I considered. Probably a good thing, as the 185 fits my needs (backup power) a lot better and is portable.
So far, the quality seems quite high, it runs very well, and the vibration level is modest. Mostly it has a gentle rocking from the power strokes, but no harsh hammering. I had just the bare engine running only on the wood shipping crate bottom, and it would really jump when I went to full throttle from idle, but at constant speed, it would only gradually walk across the concrete after several minutes. Quite smooth indeed. It is *not* quiet by any stretch, and is definitely a more obnoxious noise than a 6/1 setup. But, again, for backup power, it works.
Here's some pics of it that John has up on his site: http://power-co.net/ilchris.htm.
The generator head is a Markon 2 pole 3200 watt unit I've had for several years, hooked to an anemic Honda gasser engine. It was time to go diesel....
Enjoy!
Chris
-
Hi pigseye
I just got the ZS1115 from Muhammed and it looks like well build engine , but it is not a Changfa it is made by http://www.amecco.com/index.htm.I too would have like a Lister but the shipping to Puerto Rico was to much ,I want a 12k generator that means that the 6/1 was out and the bigger lister i could not handle.
-
DBP,
I'd love to get a lister but to get close to 20 hp, a 24/2 lister is $2400 plus shipping ($400 to 700) and a Changzou 1125 is $700 plus shipping ($200). Huge difference in price. But I still might get a lister.
Europachris,
I appreciate your response and insight on the 185. Could I ask what do you think of the noise level? Have you done anything special to limit the noise?
Luismc,
Excellent! you must be excited. An in depth review would be greatly appreciated.
Could you post some pics of your 1115? Do you have it running yet?
How is the noise level? What are your thoughts on controlling noise? Noise is my biggest concern with a China diesel. I know I can control the Lister to a tolerable level, but am concerned the China diesel will be to loud for my needs.
Thanks!
Pigseye
-
Europachris,
I appreciate your response and insight on the 185. Could I ask what do you think of the noise level? Have you done anything special to limit the noise?
Well, it's hard to say, but the noise level is LOUD. Not so loud you're going to go deaf instantly or annoy neighbors for miles, but loud enough you're going to want to wear hearing protection when working around it while running. No worse than a regular gas generator, tho.
The vast majority of the noise is from the intake and the exhaust. The exhaust really barks under full load. The engine contributes with the rhythmic diesel knock and the whirring of all the balancer and timing gears.
I'm going to experiment with a much larger muffler, either a tractor style muffler with 1.5" OD connections, or an auto muffler of similar size.
Also, I'd like to try a different intake setup, using a Solberg air compressor silencer/filter. That might help some, and to really quiet the intake, you would need to install a true intake muffler between the filter and the intake port of the engine. Something with a good size volume to dampen out the "pop" when the intake valve opens.
Since this setup is for backup power and misc. projects outside around the yard where I need power, the noise level isn't a big deal, but it would be fun to see how quiet I can get it.
I've not heard a Listeroid in person, but I'd bet that if you setup a big muffler and something better on the intake, it would be far far quieter due to the lower rpm, absence of much of the gear noise, and greater mass do dampen the diesel knock. That would be a fun setup. Just a nice clickety clack.
Chris
-
The thing to remember with the listers is this.
At low rpm, say 300, and idling no load, they chuff like a steam engine (on mine the higher rpm of the alternator spinning makes more noise than the 6/1
However.
run it at rated 650 rpm and put the sucker on load*** and you get something between a WHUMP and a THUMP, you can still talk over it very easily, but that low end whump travels.
*** the "gentleman collectors" start-o-matic that I bought recently went on load today for the first time, ran it up on bar fire elements*****, expletive deleted gentleman collectors are a pain in the ass, the bitch pumped out bits of carbon for 5 minutes before clearing up, sad bastards run them at rallies and draw at most a few hundred watts to light a few coloured bulbs. Bastards should be shot and banned from owing stationary engines.
***** bar fires are a resistive load, they don't care about ac or dc so don't care about frequency, so they are ideal for load testing and governor setting, unlike an ac motor, which can overhead badly if the frequency is wrong.
timed the "run down" from shutting her off to stationary very approximately today, quite a lump over 60 seconds.
hopefully next week I'll get around to repairing the frost damaged cylinder thanks to our gentleman collector neglecting to drain the sucker over winter, and then fit a rad, the tank he used is only good for tickover and has the hoses at the wrong levels, lose 3 inches of water and you lose the syphon
did I mention that gentleman collectors piss me off?
cheers
-
A Changfa 1115 direct to a 10KW head at 1800rpm gives me and estimated 7-7.5KW easily. In my experience, the quality of my Changfa is great. Exactly what you would expect buying an engine over here, very nice. Other brands, couldn't tell you. My engine and head came from Joel, coupler from George. Plenty of support from them. I built it because I needed more KW than a typical 650rpm Listeroid could provide. I think they are noiser by design, not in a detrimental way but just the way they are. It's a tradeoff.
I thought these were also covered under the EPA restrictions too? Don't know, be careful.
-
gentlemen collectors provide a very good source of very good engines/usually rebuilt and most of the time for sale at a price cheaper than you could do it yourself//a little carbon is a small price to pay for a running engine/ from a gentleman collector with 18 restored engines//it is impossible to run that many engines full time/but some day some will get some very good engines.. just run then a few minutes and get the carbon out// small price compared to what I have put in them//sid
-
gentlemen collectors provide a very good source of very good engines/usually rebuilt and most of the time for sale at a price cheaper than you could do it yourself//a little carbon is a small price to pay for a running engine/ from a gentleman collector with 18 restored engines//it is impossible to run that many engines full time/but some day some will get some very good engines.. just run then a few minutes and get the carbon out// small price compared to what I have put in them//sid
my experience is the opposite, gentlemen collectors are fascinated with the correct colour paint, correct year and breed of starting handle wood, but are bloody awful mechanics who don't understand their engines and run them on tickover... their only saving grace in my experience is even if one of their engine hours is worth between a hundred and a thousand proper hours in terms of wear and tear, they don't usually run em enough hours to do serious damage.
YMMV, but my prejudices against gentlemen collectors comes from long experience, old cars, classic bikes and engines, only time there's ever been a bargain going is when you get one sold by their wives without their knowledge....
-
my experience is the opposite, gentlemen collectors are fascinated with the correct colour paint, correct year and breed of starting handle wood, but are bloody awful mechanics who don't understand their engines and run them on tickover... their only saving grace in my experience is even if one of their engine hours is worth between a hundred and a thousand proper hours in terms of wear and tear, they don't usually run em enough hours to do serious damage.
YMMV, but my prejudices against gentlemen collectors comes from long experience, old cars, classic bikes and engines, only time there's ever been a bargain going is when you get one sold by their wives without their knowledge....
I have a theory, based on nothing really, that a really obsessed gentleman collector's wife might have other things available for the taking too. ;)
Russell
-
I have a theory, based on nothing really, that a really obsessed gentleman collector's wife might have other things available for the taking too. ;)
I have a related theory, the said wives things available are prolly about as attractive as a bent micrometer... :-X
-
Gentlemen..... play nice We have great ideas, and great experiances. Please remember this is the internet, you miss something with typewritten words.
Lets not get all personnal and attack dogish. Be respectful.... Or we will use our Ubberpowers to delete your posts.
Now back to talking about chinese engines
-
I have a yard full of what I consider to be collectable lawn mowers some from as far back as the eraly 50s.
The wife would rather call the scrap dealer.
My brother tends to like to borrow one when he brakes his. ( he picks the ones that are hardest to repair, and brakes them lol )
They all cut grass a few times a year....
Doug
-
pigseye,
Did you mention to the dealer that you were trying to find about his engine on a forum? The only apparenty owner of one has only one post, and only joined minutes before he posted. Some dealers have been known to pose as customers in order to generate sales. Not saying this is the case here, but it's a good candiate.
I sent a couple of emails to previous winners of his auctions, they were able to verify that they had recieved, but none had run thier engine yet. The companies website that is mentioned only appears to be a trading company, so I wasn't able to assertain the true source of the engines.
Steve
-
No one would stoop to such things here would they?
Old Time Listers were snearing in your direction.......
Doug
-
Hi
I am still here , I read this forum at least once a day but English is not my language it is very hard for me to post, I have not run the engine yet as I am constructing the frame as this engine do not look stable unless bolted to a good frame, it will be about two more days.
luismc
-
Hey all,
The responses are great particularly the descriptive ones on noise level of chinese diesels versus listers.
I'm going to see a lister in my area on Thursday and listen to it run. It's a 6/1 but it will at least give me an idea.
I am a little concerned that the chinese diesel might be to loud for my application since I want to run it for long periods of time during the day. Although I don't have a lot of neighbors, i do have a few that are close and wouldn't want to disturb them.
Luisc, please post photos and an assessment of your engine.
Trigzy, Yes it is possible that someone is posing as a customer when they are the dealer, I'll just ahve to take everything with a grain of salt. Luisc, this does not mean I don't believe you own a Changzhou but I'm sure you understand the intentions of a less than honorable dealer.
europachris, please keep us posted on your Changfa silencing options. Do you think if you built an insulated generator shed that you could significantly reduce the intake noise? You'd still need a reall y good muffler for the exhaust, but maybe the intake could be dampened with a brick generator building.
Thanks
Pigseye
-
Hi
You can hear one running at http://lerch.no-ip.com/ChangFa_Gen/TOC.htm so far this is the only one i have heard , compered to the listers i have heard on line it seems like the lister is much much quietter and more pleasant .
-
Thanks Luisc, I'll check it out.
-
Luisc,
Thanks again for the link. I checked it out and have to say that the engine is very loud and I don't think I could get it quiet enough for my neighborhood. Maybe the noise level is exaggerated in the shop where they ran it but it is still loud.
I'm very interested in learning more about how your engine turns out and your experience with noise level.
On a side note, where I live we had a beautiful, sunny, calm day on Tuesday and the power went out for over an hour. I don't know what's happening in my area but we have been having significantly more brownouts and power outages for no apparent reason. This is more rationale to get a generator going.
Thanks,
Pigseye
-
Luisc,
Thanks again for the link. I checked it out and have to say that the engine is very loud and I don't think I could get it quiet enough for my neighborhood. Maybe the noise level is exaggerated in the shop where they ran it but it is still loud.
Yeah, they are loud, compared to a Lister. With 3 times the rpm and a lot more 'stuff' inside the crankcase whirring around, they are going to be noisy. No worse than an average 3600 rpm gasser generator, and quieter than some I've heard (the Tecumseh powered Colemans are particularly loud and obnoxious).
But, I'm only in the game for backup power and the occasional outdoor project, so noise isn't a big issue for me. If I tick off the neighbors with noise, at least I have power and they dont! :D
I'd wager that if you put a noise meter next to a Lister at full load, the noise level wouldn't be a lot different. It's the *character* of the sound that makes the difference. The Changfa has a very 'sharp' sound and quite a bit of gear racket. The Lister has a great WHUMP of a power stroke, but it's low frequency and the rest of the noise is a little gear noise from the cam and the clickety clack of the tappets. It's that rhythmic tone of the Lister that makes it a pleasant noise rather than a racket.
Chris
-
Hi Europachris,
You're probably correct about the noise characteristics. The Chinese diesels are fairly obnoxious, versus the lowerr frequency Listers.
I'm going to look and listen to a 6/1 lister tonight.
Thanks,
Pigseye
-
Got to listen to a 6hp Lister today and I don't think I"ll be getting a Changzhou.
The sound of a Lister is just to addicting. Just need to spend alot more money.
Thanks to tnorvold for taking the time to show me his Listers!!!
Thanks for all the input.
Pigseye