Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: Stevels on October 31, 2005, 03:09:38 AM
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So, I plan on doing some WVO Lister action. I just finished my car conversion and now I want to convert everything to WVO. How about a WVO blender? or a WVO lawn mover?? Ahhh the possibilities!
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The Green Monster is here and my buddy and I uncrated it this afternoon. Man, is it big and green. Green as well as big. Have I mentioned Green?
I will take lots of pictures and document my"Grease Play" as it develops. First thing is to get this bad boy running on diesel, let alone an alternitive fuel.
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Does anyone know the best source for wvo? ie fast food, mom pop resteraunts?
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Did you get it going yet?
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I just got back from Amsterdam, where I broke no laws ;D
I have not done anything with my Lister yet. I hope to get going on it quickly before it gets too cold. It still has not been started. As for the best source of WVO, I have only received oil from an Asian restaurant I am friendly with, and it seems like pretty good oil. It is NOT hydrogentated.
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Any luck, yet?
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green you say ?
http://63.249.17.214/craig/listeroids/
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ostryjak,
Welcome to the forum...there is a lot of good info here...nice FuKing pictures..... :)
Joe
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This Christmas break is the *planned* tear down , clean out , rebuild and start 'er up week
I will be using WVO collected from a couple of local restaurants - I have about 200 gallons to use up.
I will let y'all know how it goes and post a load of photos to boot.
Good to be here.
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The holidays are finally gone and my Listeroid Waste Veg project is not forgotten, but a whole lot more time consuming than I had hoped.
I had to first clean and heat my garage so I could even work on the project. I had to buy a MIG welder and learn how to use the darn thimg (I am a computer nerd, machinist wannabe)
Now that most of the parts are here and the holidays are over, this project will gain some speed.
No, I do not have it going yet.... but man, do I have some ambitious ideas!
I know this is the WVO thread, but I will first design and test the system on Home HEating Oil (essentially diesel dyed red) and once the system seems sound, i will fabricate the conversion to WVO.
As I said, I have converted my MB 350SDL to veg, and it is my daily driving car and it ROCKS! -- so I love this WVO technology. I am, however, way over my head with just about every aspect of this project.
Just the way I like it!
I will try to take snap shots and document the project, as if it is as ambitiious as I am planning, it may earn me some "Cool Points" within our forum :)
Either way, i gotta do something usefull with the 'Roid soon, my wife is starting to think that the huge green thing in the garage is not her new central vacuum system after all!!
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My situation is a lot like yours -- computer programmer with a new interest in diesels and alternative fuels. I haven't bought a Lister yet because I'm not sure how to use the alt fuel power. Do you plan to grid-tie and sell power back to the utility?
If you haven't looked, you can do this with an inverter and a deep cycle battery bank. I would need two inverters as I have to drive two 240V AC pumps. A couple of drawbacks in this system is that you lose 5-15% of your generated power to heat in the AC->DC conversion. Also you have to work closely with the utility to convince them that you won't zap a linesman during an outage.
You get 30% up to $2,000 as a tax credit over two years for solar equipment installed during 2006 or 2007 from the federal government. Your state might have incentives as well. You could use this solar equipment to sell power to the utility. In fact, if I read the statute right, here in WA the utility pays me $0.54/kWh from solar equipment manufactured in WA (not sure this exists). Theoretically one take advantage of this: buy minimal solar equipment, then run straight veg oil or even diesel and sell power to the utility for more than what straight diesel costs. Normally my utility doesn't have to pay any refund, that is you can't run a surplus on a yearly basis. Maybe that's the governing factor.
I'll probably be posting more about this in the coming days.
Incidentally how much discount do you get for the red-dyed diesel over road-tax diesel? I should start buying that.
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Incidentally how much discount do you get for the red-dyed diesel over road-tax diesel? I should start buying that.
goid point... the truth is it is all a scam. While years ago, home heating oil was indeed cheaper than deisel fuel, which was as would make sesne, cheaper than gasolin. Now, since our oilman President invaded an oil rich country, it is actually cheaper for me to actually buy diesel fuel to heat my house.
I paid extra right after Katrina, to locked my home heating oil at a a cap of $2.75/gallon Currently, my fuel oil is being billed at $2.49/g, but if I take more than 15 days to pay, it goes up to $2.75/g. Diesel costs between $2.59-$2.66/gallon.
Ahh, progress! :)
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Prices of consumer goods rise and fall because of many factors and are especially affected by supply and demand.
The people of Iraq currently import most of their refinery products and will for sometime.
The foreign country we get the largest percent of our oil from is Canada.
If you really want to worry about anything look at the affect of a robust industrial complex preceding any major conflict…. Then look at the direction we are going and take a look at China…who do you think could ramp up faster?
If you really want to know what is going on in ME talk to the folks with boots on the ground…Maine Stream Media…prints mostly the doom and gloom…
Joe
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I currently (say that because I'm changing engines) run a 12/2 and a 25/2 on WVO. My buddy runs a 12/2 on WVO also, he has been off-grid for over 8 months now. Listers love WVO! Between the two of us, we have over 6,00 hours of WVO runnning on the two 12/2 engines, no problems. I pulled the heads on my 12 after 2,000 hours and de-coked, build up was not too bad. I'm looking into Propane injection to lessen the carbon build-up to virtually nothing. I'd be happy to share experiences if anyone wants to email me.
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JohnF13,
Could you share some of your experiences using WVO with a Lister style engine?
Preheat method, dual tank plumbing, etc.
Thanks,
Jim
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I just read this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-palm.html
A pair of Kubota engines testing refined palm oil to diesel. The Palm oil caused the biggest wear was to the piston rings. I wonder if the SVO experience is the same?
If the cylinder liner is wear resistant, then periodic piston ring changes is not too much problem if WVO is saving so much money over petrodiesel.?
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I just read this:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-palm.html
A pair of Kubota engines testing refined palm oil to diesel. The Palm oil caused the biggest wear was to the piston rings. I wonder if the SVO experience is the same?
If the cylinder liner is wear resistant, then periodic piston ring changes is not too much problem if WVO is saving so much money over petrodiesel.?
Ring changes are more involved than I'd realized: <http://www.circletrack.com/howto/4639/>
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Procrustes & list,
I followed your link to read the article on ring fitting.
Sure the guy is a pro, but he's working on high performance race engines - not a 6hp Listeroid , rated at 18hp per ton!
The rings in the Lister have an easier life than most!
Engine wear increases with the square of the rpm. That's why the Lister running at 650 rpm lasts for so long. The rate of wear on an engine running at 1000rpm would be more than twice that of a 650rpm engine.
Ken
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Sure the guy is a pro, but he's working on high performance race engines - not a 6hp Listeroid , rated at 18hp per ton!
The rings in the Lister have an easier life than most!
Engine wear increases with the square of the rpm. That's why the Lister running at 650 rpm lasts for so long. The rate of wear on an engine running at 1000rpm would be more than twice that of a 650rpm engine.
Agreed. The Lister is a top choice for an economical WVO system. If I overstated my concerns about more frequent ring jobs it is because I've long been skeptical that WVO is a perfect replacement for diesel. I still plan to use it myself though if I can find a convenient source.
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WVO is easy to use in a Lister. The only thing you need to remember is that the oil has to be reasonably hot when it gets to the injectors. That is pretty easy to do, you can either run a line from the water jacket in the engine through the oil tank, or have the engine and oil tank in an insulated building that keeps it pretty warm. I do the latter, when the engine is running it gets up to about 90 - 100F in there, easily enough to pre-heat the oil. As for the dual tanks, I actually have 3, one for diesel or bio and two for WVO. The fuel lines run down the side of my water jacket lines into a common three into one brass fitting (you can find them in the air tools section of your local hardware store). Make sure this fitting is close to the engine so when you do a change over to dino/bioD it doesn't take too long. I strip off the onboard filter and use filter in each line to make the change over quicker. I have two WVO tanks so that I can be running on one while I fill the other and give time for the oil to settle - that is probably overkill because I filter the stuff pretty well but I have the space.
if you need to know anything else I'd be happy to give you a more detailed explanation.
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Hello John,
If you would arrange the list of engines in your sig into one line we would not have to scroll as far. (Ok I'm really jealous you've got so many ;D)
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I have my 25/2 up and running on diesel.. I also went to the journey-to-forever site and got excited about making biodiesel out of WVO, but it adds time, cost, toxic chemicals (NaOH), etc. but the fuel is excellent. On one hand I want to take good care of my engine. On the other hand, these things are made to tolerate (within reason) alot of abuse. The middle ground (for me) is to get fryer oil from restaurants, filter and use it as-is. Nothing new, many are doing it. You guys might have missed this free site, kind of like Journey to Forever but not as sophisticated: http://www.jatropha.de/ it is about using the Jatropha oil in its natural state (without transesterification) in many types of diesels. check out the page where they fire up a Listeroid in India. an interesting window into a group of countries who are trying to use anything available at the lowest cost.
I can grow this plant where i live so it's tempting. another variety here grows like a weed, no pun intended. Anyway the fryer oil is just too easy. it's virtually free, has no hazardous classifications, and it is working for many. These are the good old days friends. sooner or later our EPA friends will get in the way of our free WVO. Until then.
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My FK 6-1 Lister sees only premium quality home brew biodiesel at an approximate cost of 0.60 per gallon. No muss, no fuss, easy to filter, yada yada.
Also, please note that a lot of the information concerning home brewing biodiesel from the Journey to Forever website is, ummmm, there's no nice way to put this...crapola. Do not under any circumstances use the so-called Fool Proof Method. Bad bad science.
Alternatively, some of the brightest minds in the biodiesel home brewing universe hang out here and pass out free advice:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums
Good luck and have fun!
troy
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We ran biodiesel at work for 4 months. It was a midwest product from a plant set up for soy bean farmers. We had alot of problems with glyserine drop out and it seemed to be an ion conductor. Iron compounds not produced in the fuel were found in the greasy dregs of fuel purifiers and filters. We sent samples to the University of Idaho for testing. The Biodiesel must have been taking iron ions out of the fuel system tanks, valves and pipes.
On the other hand, Seattle Biodiesel sells every gallon they make just as soon as they get it done. They have very happy customers. Must be a quality thing. I've heard that the home brewed biodiesel between SanFrancisco and Vancouver BC is the finest in the world. Pretty smart hippies.
I haven't followed it much this past year. I'd like to think the idea is spreading across the nation, it has a strong taste of self reliance and pioneering spirit. I like that.
Scott E
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Commercial biodiesel producers are in a cuthroat commercial market and have to compete, in the US at least, with what is essentially subsidized petro fuel. The bottom line is that many are forced to cut corners on washing, drying and quality control or they go out of business. There are national quality standards, but it's voluntary and self policing. Some are better than others.
The same thing is true of the petro diesel suppliers as far as quality goes.
Since my time is "free" I have the luxury of brewing premium, "nectar of the gods" biodiesel. No issues in two years.
Finest regards,
troy
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solarguy
Which method do you use, KOH or NAoH and which is better.
thanks
Tim
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I use lye, aka NaOH. For me, at this time, it's better. But there are tradeoffs.
KOH is more tolerant of having a little (emphasis on little) water contamination in your oilstock. I test every batch of wvo for water content and dry it if necessary, so that has no effect on me one way or the other.
Also, the glycerin byproduct produced with KOH is a liquid at room temperature. With NaOH, the byproduct can turn into a pretty solid gell at room temp. In a pipe or a pump, that's a clog. I avoid the clogging problem by using excess methanol, approx 24% by vol of wvo. That keeps the byproduct nice and liquid and I recover the excess anyway, so it doesn't really cost me anything.
NaOH is about a third to a half cheaper in most places, but methanol is by far the biggest expense, so no big deal either way.
Also, I make premium handmade facial soap as a little hobby/business, which also requires NaOH.
Alternatively, if you use KOH, the byproduct can be used in limited amounts as fertilizer for the potassium and organic content. NaOH is toxic to plants. So if you need biodiegradable herbicide, NaOH is the way to go!
Just a bit complicated.
Finest regards,
troy
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Thanks for the Biodiesel link. A whole 'nuther forum to research. What do you think about running your Listeroid up to temp on diesel, then switching to filtered straight WVO, then shutting down on diesel again? I want to try it but don't want to ruin my injector/pump. George B says there are people running on WVO up to 1000hrs, but then again Guy says 1000hrs isn't nearly enough data...so who knows.
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Thanks for the Biodiesel link. A whole 'nuther forum to research. What do you think about running your Listeroid up to temp on diesel, then switching to filtered straight WVO, then shutting down on diesel again? I want to try it but don't want to ruin my injector/pump. George B says there are people running on WVO up to 1000hrs, but then again Guy says 1000hrs isn't nearly enough data...so who knows.
Its done all the time with diesel auto and truck engines. Frybrid.com
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There are certainly folks out there that run a "two tank" system. Start/finish on diesel (or biodiesel!) and main run on preheated well-filtered waste veggie oil.
The infopop group has a site dedicated to the "greasers", those who burn the wvo straight:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/cfrm/f/898605551
There are lots of folks who know the process pretty well and are building up a considerable amount of experience. Mostly cars and trucks. They are very question friendly.
Good luck and have fun!
troy
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As I drove past ye old second hand store I noticed a verry nice cream seperator in the window. Should I buy it will a cream seperator do a good job of cleaning wvo ? Right now Im using a pant leg filter and then letting it sit Iv experimented with salt and baking powder to settel the yuk. Iv seen a three tank settiling method and am tempetd to build it . Right now Im in the early stages of collecting oi but soon Ill have enough to use .
Greg
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If I recall, somebody over on the infopop biodiesel discussion group tried an old cream separator, but wasn't to impressed with the results.
Your mileage may vary...
Good luck, have fun, report back if you find a nifty way to do it.
troy
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being a homesteader type we have a cream seperator and have used it... i see no way one can help
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I thought I share this tid bit.While looking for the cheap and easy way to filter wvo I thought land scape fabric. UhUh. It works really well. At 9 bucks for 25' I double it and hold wit a bungie cord around the top of a 45 gal barrel. You can dump 5 gal pail of wvo in and leave. It will filter 10- 15 gal befor cloging and cheap enough to throw away.
Greg