Lister Engine Forum

How to / DIY => Engines => Topic started by: Number21 on November 14, 2008, 06:15:49 AM

Title: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 14, 2008, 06:15:49 AM
I've been interested in buying a Changfa engine to play with for a long time, now that I'm finally getting around to it, it seems the EPA has banned them in the US. Am I correct? Is there any legal way for me to buy a new Changfa diesel in the US?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 14, 2008, 06:26:43 AM
where you located?

and what changfa are you looking for?

how many hp?

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: LowGear on November 14, 2008, 06:34:15 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110291751188&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 14, 2008, 07:09:11 AM
where you located?

and what changfa are you looking for?

how many hp?

bob g

I'm near Portland, OR. Ideally I'd like one of the really small ones...3hp? I plan on experimenting with WMO to generate heat and electricity for my house.

That one on ebay isn't actually a Changfa brand engine, is it?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 14, 2008, 03:28:11 PM
3 hp won't make much power, and even less heat
i assume you are wanting water cooled as well?

personally i think you need to step up to at least an r175 watercooled
that is about the smallest useful size and it won't cost that much more than a 3hp version

when you are dealing with the small engine's, i don't think any of the chinese engine's are better or worse
than the others.

at present i know of no american dealers selling genuine changfa, however
i have some of the other brands that power solutions sells and they look good to me.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 15, 2008, 03:25:08 AM
Well, I was just planning on this as an experiment, and I was hoping for a smaller, cheaper engine. I remember seeing 3.3hp water cooled Changfas on ebay not very long ago for $200. If the experiment works out I'd probably move up to a twin cylinder lister...but I don't want to invest in that kind of iron until I know what I'm doing.  ;D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 15, 2008, 04:13:06 AM
if you cut your teeth on a changfa, i can't imagine ever going to a listeroid twin! ever!

yes the changfa make some noise, but much of that is due to muffler and intake noise

if you are serious about doing some experimentation just step up to at least the S195 electric start changfa
or another of the changfoids such as the ones sold be powersolutions in portland,, can't get any closer to you
and save yourself enough in freight to offset most of the additional cost.

there is a wealth of info available on the 195 and its big brother the 1115,
if you want to play with alternate fuels stick with the 195 idi engine, they will burn nearly anything flammable.

also i can provide you with a ton of info on how to set one up to do cogen/trigen operation if you like.

and you don't need a ton of concrete either, i have one working as a test mule in the garage
and it will pull 7.5 kwatt pf near unity with some smoke and 6.7 kwatt with a clean exhaust
now that is some useful work.

that amount of power will compete very well with a 12/2 listeroid without a bunch of headaches.

anyway email
sawyer@pacifier.com
and i am sure he can set you up.

bob g

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: ronmar on November 15, 2008, 07:52:04 AM
3HP won't run much more than a small microwave, and as Bob mentioned it isn't going to make much heat, maybe 5-7KBTU/HR from the cooling system.  I would not go any less than 6HP.  6HP will net you 3KW of electric power, and probably a little more than 15KBTU of useable heat per hour at full load from the cooling system.  It is also large enough to be usefull at a reasonable cost even if you never decide to invest any more time or money on a larger unit.  It is good to have a usefull tool to experiment with if you have to convince a significant other of the worth of this project.  I didn't truly get the nod from the wife till the first time that our lights were on, and everyone elses were off...  I run a 6/1 listeroid and am very happy with the output in electric and heat to meet my backup needs.  A 6HP china diesel should be able to get you a similar output.

The engine that Lowgear linked to on E-bay is from the same gentleman in Portland that Bob mentioned.  I bought my 6/1 and my ST-5 generator thru him, and have absolutely no complaints.  He stands behind what he sells, and your shipping would consist of driving there to pick it up... 

As for a twin roid, I would buy 2 singles before I bought a twin, but that is just my opinion:)

Good luck on your project.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 16, 2008, 12:53:51 AM
I'm with Bob and would recommend getting a Changfa 195.  That engine will last a lifetime, is big enough to run stuff and actually provide heat and light for your home while being able to burn almost anything flammable.

I purchased a R175A engine from JiangDong, one of the other Chinese companies.  It is not as good an engine as Changfa and had serious sand issues as delivered but after some TLC (total cleaning and rebuild with some new parts) it is quite acceptable to me.  I am happy with the miserly fuel consumption but disappointed in the amount of shaft power. For the machine I built I'd be better served by a R185 engine. My setup is experimental and contains a DC  generator as well as the AC unit.  Best I can make is about 2000 watts total after belt and pulley losses which are higher than normal in my setup with two generator heads, an extra outboard flywheel and two sets of dual V-belts.  Basically I have one standard 115 volt wall outlet available from this machine in AC mode.  Not enough to run your house off unless you have a battery bank and inverters and run the generator 24/7, running all night to get the batteries caught up.  That was my plan.  Picking the smallest diesel that will do the job will work it hard where it gets max efficiency and minimum buildup of carbon deposits.

The other plus in getting an R195 engine is it can be had with electric start and built in battery charging alternator.  Get that!
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 16, 2008, 06:07:55 AM
I'm with Bob and would recommend getting a Changfa 195.  That engine will last a lifetime, is big enough to run stuff and actually provide heat and light for your home while being able to burn almost anything flammable.

I think I'd love one, but where do I buy it? That 6.6hp posted above is the only one on ebay. How many HP is the 195?


As a side note, if I can find a genuine Changfa, would it be unreasonable for me to think I can run it on 100% WMO for serious lengths of time? (with regular diesel for warmup and shutdown)
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 16, 2008, 06:20:55 AM
contact
sawyer@pacifier.com
he has 195's as well as other fun stuff

the 195 typically is 12hp at 2000rpm
20:1 compression, IDI
it has a 1 hour rating of 13.2hp, but i would look at that as surge.

as for burning veggie, it will burn nearly anything flammable
i have ran mine on ATF, hydraulic oil, 10, 20 and 30 weight motor oils
hard to start on 30 weight by hand cranking, and takes a bit to burn cleanly
but does when it is hot.

how long it will run without cleanout/decoke, i have no idea.
probably quite a long time on 50/50 mix pump diesel and motor oil.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 16, 2008, 07:26:01 AM
I was thinking something along the lines of 100% WMO (not WVO) for 12 hours a day. Is this duty cycle unreasonable? I would plan on decarbing the engine as regular maintainence.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 16, 2008, 09:33:14 AM
as for 12 hours per day, i don't know if that is reasonable or not
 
to me running 12 hour per day in anything other than as a backup generator make no sense
at all. at least not to me.

my philosophy is

schedule your loads and then fire up the genset to cover them
and while it is running charge batteries to power an inverter to cover those loads you can't schedule.

this of course is for ongoing offgrid use.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 17, 2008, 02:06:49 AM
I don't plan on going off grid completely with this setup. My local utility has a plan where I only pay 3.5 cents per KWH during "off peak" hours from 10PM to 6AM. During this time the generator would be off, but the "on peak" price is 10.5 cents, and that's when the gen would be running.

I think the guy on ebay has talked me into an "S195M", especially since I'm close enough to go pick it up. Where can I find a rebuild kit for this engine?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Number21 on November 17, 2008, 02:08:38 AM
Another question - would a 195 work well directly connected to a 5kw gen head @ 1800 RPM?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 18, 2008, 04:53:23 AM
Another question - would a 195 work well directly connected to a 5kw gen head @ 1800 RPM?

It would be a perfect hardware match and would run well.  Don't sue me if you only get 4.8 kW out.  It will be close to gen head rated capacity but dependant on fuel and elevation above sea level. 
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 18, 2008, 05:28:00 AM
there are those that have the 195 coupled to an st10 with good results

i have extensive testing with a heavy st 7.5 and in my opinion it is a better match to a s195 than an st5

the s195 will allow the st7.5 to make 6 kwatts no problem and with no smoke
6kwatt is right in the sweet spot of efficiency of a st7.5

this is for a direct drive 1800rpm setup

if you want to belt drive and slow the engine down to around 1500 then an st5 would be a good match
as far as power production.

the thing is you need to get to about 6kwatt load to get into the best efficiency of the engine
the baseline consumption of the engine is such that the first few kwatts are the most expensive kwatt
to produce as far as fuel consumed per kwatt/hr.

that holds true of about any engine driven genset btw

for instance a typical listeroid 6/1 might consume .333-.350 gal/kwatt/hr producing 1 kwatt
and drop to around .125 gal/kwatt/hr at 3 kwatt load. (so you get much more power for the same fuel consumed
if you can keep it loaded near its peak)

set up right the changfa 195 can get as low as ~.100 gal/kwatt/hr at ~6kwatt load

i don't know what you have in mind for a st head, there are cheap st heads out there
that are lighter than the better ones,, the difference is not all cast iron, but more copper.

the man you are dealing with on the s195 has the heavier and in my opinion better st heads as well.
just in case you haven't bought one yet.

then there is this.

depending on what you wanna do, if you want to also drive a hd alternator for battery charging
and plan on doing regular charging then you might be better served with an st5 and run it at 3 or 4kwatt
and have 2-3 kwatt capacity left to drive the hd battery charging alternator as well?

there is a lot that can be done with that engine.

pm me if you need any other info, and i will help in anyway i can.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: oliver90owner on November 18, 2008, 07:35:18 AM
Hi Bob,

6kwatt is right in the sweet spot of efficiency of a st7.5

Do you have the efficiency curves for any of these head?  That information would be useful to assess whether a particular sized head is better than another at a particular load.

for instance a typical listeroid 6/1 might consume .333-.350 gal/kwatt/hr producing 1 kwatt
and drop to around .125 gal/kwatt/hr at 3 kwatt load
  Typical fuel consumption figures I have seen from George's site are:

0.17 gph at 1kW and  0.13gph/kWh at 3kW.  Presmably US gallons (ad metric kW :)).  That makes about a 25% improvement at fuller power?  Of course comparing 1kW with 6kw for a bigger engine is going to make a bigger diference.  All figures approximate.  Ymmv.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 18, 2008, 08:31:43 AM
for instance a typical listeroid 6/1 might consume .333-.350 gal/kwatt/hr producing 1 kwatt

i had a brain fart on that one,
the best documented i had was around .2 gal/kwatt/hr for the first kwatt, reducing to about .125 gal/kwatt/hr at 3 kwatt loading

anyway the idea still holds, just not a dramatic

good catch RAB :)

as for the efficiency curve of the st head, i only have info on the st7.5 heavy series
and it will take me another 2 weeks to fully document that curve, i am awaiting a part so that i can finish testing.

this much i am pretty sure of, that is the st7.5 is between 85-87% efficient peaking at 87% at 6.5kwatt loading.
that is from about 3 to 6.5 kwatt loading,, i haven't got all the numbers to calculate the lower load efficiencies yet.

for the sake of an arguement i am certain that it is good for a solid 85% at a bit over half load
fwiw
i am going to rerun all the testing again when i get some more accurate instrumentation, so the numbers might be off a touch.
that i hope to have in place in the next few days.

bob g

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 18, 2008, 01:55:27 PM
there are those that have the 195 coupled to an st10 with good results

i have extensive testing with a heavy st 7.5 and in my opinion it is a better match to a s195 than an st5

the s195 will allow the st7.5 to make 6 kwatts no problem and with no smoke
6kwatt is right in the sweet spot of efficiency of a st7.5

this is for a direct drive 1800rpm setup
<snip>
set up right the changfa 195 can get as low as ~.100 gal/kwatt/hr at ~6kwatt load

bob g

Bob,

Wow, guess I was being a bit too conservative in my guestimate. I really have no firm idea of the power curve at 1800 RPM on that engine so I stood on the rated output point, 12 HP at 2200 RPM and threw a dart. ;)  That is very good power output for a 195 engine I'd say.  That 0.1 gallon/kW/hr at a 6 kW rate is fantastic!  Just to be clear, this is with a indirect (precup) injection engine?  Direct injection is supposed to have a slight edge on the fuel efficiency.

My Changfa 1115 is a D.I. engine and I do not have it set up yet to make serious testing possible.  With luck I'll be able to assemble the power plant that I bought this engine for this winter.  Luck means in large part finding a 12-15 kW, 3-phase generating head.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 18, 2008, 04:25:57 PM
the changfa S195 is an idi engine, it is rated 12 hp at 2000rpm, not 2200 and has a one hour
rating of 13.2 hp at 2000rpm

so conservatively if you direct drive

1800/2000 = 90% power

90% of 12 hp is 10.8hp

so in keeping with 2hp per kwatt,, figure 5.4 kwatt
i know it will burn very cleanly at that leve and do that all day long no problem at all.

with removal of the coolant tank, install of the block off plate, t stat, radiator and fan
the engine can be maintained at around 210 degree F, it will carry 6 kwatt direct drive
with no smoke and consume approx .100 gal/kwatt/hr

i have heard from a realiable source that an 1115 with DI, will make 10 kwatt at 1800rpm (w/st12 head)
no problem, burn clean and consume .085 gal/kwatt/hr.

not many lister/oids can match those numbers.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 19, 2008, 02:27:42 AM
Bob,

I figured the 195 was rated 12 HP at 2200 RPM, not 2000.  Therefore 1800/2200= 82% power.  At 2 HP per kW, that's only 4.9 kW.  My 1115 is rated at 2200 RPM IIRC.  That consumption spec at 10 kW you posted sounds like something for me to look forward to for sure!
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 19, 2008, 03:41:02 AM
personally i think the changfa is an under appreciated often overlooked alternative to the listeriod.

its biggest complaint is its noisy.

noise i can work with, flicker, gib keys, constant tinkering, ton of concrete?

seems like a good tradeoff to me :)

especially since it is more frugal with fuel to start with.

fellow changfa owners unite!
stand up and be counted!
we don't need to be in the dark anymore!

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 19, 2008, 04:41:48 AM
anybody know of a changfa forum?

if not we need to start one!

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 19, 2008, 05:09:16 AM
anybody know of a changfa forum?

if not we need to start one!

:)

bob g

You and me and who else?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 19, 2008, 05:23:04 AM
i dunno, there has gotta be more than the two of us?


hello??
bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Tom on November 19, 2008, 05:31:00 AM
All right you changfa guys, just remember only the Listeroid is a chick magnet. And us allowing you to hang here allows a bit of that cachet to rub off.  :-*
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 19, 2008, 05:33:29 AM
hey us changfa guys have rights to you know!!!

glad to see you guys are so tolerant, so politically correct

:)

comeon out of the closet you changfa lovers!

stand proud!

lol

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mkdutchman on November 19, 2008, 12:29:42 PM
I have an air cooled changfa 165F  ;D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: roverjohn on November 19, 2008, 03:08:26 PM
I have a Yanmar TS50C that I'll call a Changfaoid. Does that count?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 19, 2008, 03:24:11 PM
I have a Yanmar TS50C that I'll call a Changfaoid. Does that count?

You're saying you have a Sear's poncho?[/color]

edit:  That was a Frank Zappa quote regarding clones and wannabees.  His entire sentence was ," Is that a Mexican poncho or a Sear's poncho?

Roverjohn, is your Yanmar TS50C a real poncho ( actual clone of liquid cooled Changfa engine type) or not even?  I know Kubota markets a couple of small horizontal liquid cooled diesel engines. one is a twin cylinder that copy the horizontal design of the Changfa which seems to be considered in many forums a German engine design.  I wonder if this is in fact true as well or just folklore.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mkdutchman on November 19, 2008, 03:25:19 PM
anybody know of a changfa forum?

if not we need to start one!

:)

bob g

I second that. Maybe something like this on the main board

Changfa engines
Changfa clones
changfa market place

just a suggestion, is some one going to run this past Andrew to see what he thinks?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 19, 2008, 04:28:35 PM
wow,,  its a groundswell,,,

a movement....


we got 4 out of the closet and into the daylight

what do we need? a 12 step program?

"hello my name is bob, and i am a changfa addict"

(all together now)

"Hello Bob"

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 19, 2008, 09:44:28 PM
anybody know of a changfa forum?

if not we need to start one!

:)

bob g

I second that. Maybe something like this on the main board

Changfa engines
Changfa clones
changfa market place

just a suggestion, is some one going to run this past Andrew to see what he thinks?

Might I expand upon this and present these categories:

Changfa engines (the real McCoy. Loud and Proud!  8) )
Changfa clones (JiangDong, ?)
Chinese variants incl. air cooled verticals (Yanmar, ?)
Changfa theme market place
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 19, 2008, 09:46:11 PM
wow,,  its a groundswell,,,

a movement....


we got 4 out of the closet and into the daylight

what do we need? a 12 step program?

"hello my name is bob, and i am a changfa addict"

(all together now)

"Hello Bob"

:)

bob g

"Hello Bob"   :D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: ZackaryMac on November 20, 2008, 01:39:16 AM
I have a Yanmar TS50C that I'll call a Changfaoid. Does that count?
I know Kuboda markets a couple of small horizontal liquid cooled diesel engines. one is a twin cylinder that copy the horizontal design of the Changfa which seems to be considered in many forums a German engine design.  I wonder if this is in fact true as well or just folklore.

I wonder if my Kubota EL300A-R falls into this category....?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: roverjohn on November 20, 2008, 02:01:33 AM
anybody know of a changfa forum?

if not we need to start one!

:)

bob g

I second that. Maybe something like this on the main board

Changfa engines
Changfa clones
changfa market place

just a suggestion, is some one going to run this past Andrew to see what he thinks?

Might I expand upon this and present these categories:

Changfa engines (the real McCoy. Loud and Proud!  8) )
Changfa clones (JiangDong, ?)
Chinese variants incl. air cooled verticals (Yanmar, ?)
Changfa theme market place


Mine is not an air cooled vertical and by the way how dare you? It's a real McCoy horizontal water cooled. Just like a Changfa but probably designed before the Changfa and likely better built as Yanmar claims they did this sort of thing first. If you look at the various YouTube videos of Yanmar marine diesels it looks just like them except horizontal. I'm pretty sure I'm in as your Changfas are really Yanmaroids.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 20, 2008, 03:11:32 AM
i refuse to believe that!!!

mine is a kubotoid!!

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: roverjohn on November 20, 2008, 03:12:40 AM
Here's a link to the new model TF series:
http://www.yanmar.com/store/index.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=54
Mines a TS so it's a little more old timey.
I'll get a picture up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Fred on November 20, 2008, 03:15:37 AM
Count this genuine changfa fan in - I think I have eight changfas. Does this qualify me as a changfa fan??  I also own a couple of changfoids.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 20, 2008, 03:39:53 AM
Fred:

you have been a member of this board for 2.5 years and this is your 4th post?

wow, talk about being under represented here??

btw, yes you qualify!

after you reported owning so many, i thought i would take stock of the changfa's i have

(3) -3.5 aircooled
(1)  4.5 aircooled
(2)  r175 water cooled
(1)  r185 water cooled
(2) s195 water cooled
(3)  s195 water cooled changfoid

that i can think of off the top of my head.

looking back at my list,, hmmm thats just sick!

yes we need a support group, and a 12 step program!

lol
bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Fred on November 20, 2008, 03:54:54 AM
Oooops I lied!  I have 10 genuine changfas and two changfoids.
(1) 165f air cooled
(1) r165
(2) 195
(1) 1100
(1) 1110
(6) 1115
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 20, 2008, 04:04:54 AM
how does that 1100 look?

is it direct injected?

and is it physically the same size outside as the 195?
or is it somewhere between the 195 and the 1115 in outer dimensions?

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Fred on November 20, 2008, 04:16:57 AM
Bob g - Its in between the 195 and 1110 but it is physically a lot bigger than the 195's. The 1100, 1110 and 1115 are much bigger. The 1100 is idi, 1110 and 1115 are di. You have seen my 1110 already - remember the pix I sent you a couple weeks ago - its dressed as a john deere coupled to a 10kw st head complete with decals.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 20, 2008, 04:22:00 AM
are you that "FRED"??

:)

cool!

hard to keep up with who is who sometimes

btw, the john deere green unit is cool!

also, can you check the spare head gskt in your 195 kit, and tell me how big the bore hole is?
there seems to be two differing ones, on sits on a flat topped liner and the larger fits over the step on the liner

3.75" and 4.25" inch approx

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Fred on November 20, 2008, 04:39:02 AM
Bob g - The bore size is 41/4, actually about 1/16" shy of 4.25. It is a fiber gasket with a steel fire ring. I'm wondering if the newer 195's are di and perhaps they take a different gasket than the older idi engines with the swirll combustion chamber.  I will check on the Changfa website and have looksee.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 20, 2008, 05:33:09 AM
my changfa 195 uses the 4.25 approx after crush gskt graphite with steel firering
my changfoid 195 uses a 3.75 approx before crush gskt copper laminated fiber core.

maybe i better go guage the top step of the liner to get an exact dimension on the gskt
i ended up sending the blown one to thailand to have more made up, they won't get it for a week
so i have time to get it right.

i am ordering 5 of them so that i have some spares to continue the dyno testing  8)

it sure is a pain to have to wait, i have another gkst in a kit, but i don't want to open the engine crate to pull it
out.

i guess if i get impatient enough that is what i will end up doing.

meanwhile i have been working on improving the test protocols, test report sheets, instrumentation, and spreadsheets to crunch all the numbers.

maybe i will have time to set up a jacobs ladder?  and a really big knife switch!

mwahahahaha

bob g

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: horsefly76 on November 20, 2008, 06:07:32 AM
How bout a Kubota EL 300D

And I think a swan made air cooled 170cc?


"Hi my name is Aaron and I'm a japfoid junkie"

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 20, 2008, 06:24:31 AM
Quote

Mine is not an air cooled vertical and by the way how dare you? It's a real McCoy horizontal water cooled. Just like a Changfa but probably designed before the Changfa and likely better built as Yanmar claims they did this sort of thing first. If you look at the various YouTube videos of Yanmar marine diesels it looks just like them except horizontal. I'm pretty sure I'm in as your Changfas are really Yanmaroids.

Well I was not meaning any disrespect.  I have never seen anything from Yanmar except the air cooled verticals like the ones now being sold as industrial diesel engines by Princess Auto and also one of the members here from Ontario is a stocking dealer of these air cooled small high speed vertical diesels. 

Incidentally I proposed adding a cubbyhole where these air cooled 3600 RPM industrials could find a home here as well.  I'd be interested in knowing if they get more reliable/long lived for example if you buy the large 10 HP engine and spin it at say 1800-2000 RPM instead of 3600 to run your 2500 watt generator, a ~50% engine power derating. 
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: buickanddeere on November 20, 2008, 02:19:45 PM
  For longer life expectancy and less maintenenance per year. You will be happier running a 12HP engine 6hrs a day rather than a 3HP engine 24hrs a day.
  Plus as previously stated. The 12HP will have enough power to carry the house as a standby power source.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 21, 2008, 01:16:32 AM
  For longer life expectancy and less maintenenance per year. You will be happier running a 12HP engine 6hrs a day rather than a 3HP engine 24hrs a day.
  Plus as previously stated. The 12HP will have enough power to carry the house as a standby power source.

Buick, I agree with you however my question was specifically about derating a 10 HP, 3600 RPM air cooled engine down to 4 or 5 HP to make it last longer.  This would potentially be for a user who was unable to fabricate a genset with the complexity of adding a radiator, fan, tank, thermostat and necessary modification of a stock hopper cooled, slower Changfa horizontal (which would be MY CHOICE).

Not everyone who lives off-grid has the technical skills and necessary tools  to fabricate a genset and not everyone who knows how has time to make gensets for others who need them.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Stan on November 21, 2008, 01:36:04 AM
I can see the offgrider not having the time, but if you are going to be living off grid, there are a whole bunch of skills that you will eventually need that relate to building a genset.  ATTENTION NEWBIES  Anyone who is considering living off grid had better know that your most valuable tool is your brain, and you'd better load it up with a whole host of skills before you even think about moving off grid. 

Just casting my mind back to my off grid experience in Dawson Creek and a few of the skills I needed.

Stan

welding
electrical
carpentry
hydraulics
mechanical
psychology
agriculture
legal
animal husbandry
plumbing
roofing
general farming skills (fencing, falling, etc.)

step in any time anyone?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 21, 2008, 05:57:48 AM
i guess it all comes down to ones definition of "offgrid"


there are those that move a mile outside of town with a bunch of money and setup offgrid,
maybe they can hire done what they can't do?

an then there are those that move out to a place like dawsons creek, and setup offgrid
then i agree, you better be a really good jack of all trades and master of most?

i can see a use for an aircooled diesel, but my preference would be the water cooled version
for doing most of the work, unless it was very intermittent use?

what gets me is the price some of these little aircooled diesel gensets are bringing!
4 grand? 5 grand?

not me!

but then again anyone looked into a residential cogenerator? they start at 12 grand and aren't all that large of capacity.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: roverjohn on November 21, 2008, 05:39:58 PM
Quote

Mine is not an air cooled vertical and by the way how dare you? It's a real McCoy horizontal water cooled. Just like a Changfa but probably designed before the Changfa and likely better built as Yanmar claims they did this sort of thing first. If you look at the various YouTube videos of Yanmar marine diesels it looks just like them except horizontal. I'm pretty sure I'm in as your Changfas are really Yanmaroids.

Well I was not meaning any disrespect.  I have never seen anything from Yanmar except the air cooled verticals like the ones now being sold as industrial diesel engines by Princess Auto and also one of the members here from Ontario is a stocking dealer of these air cooled small high speed vertical diesels. 

Incidentally I proposed adding a cubbyhole where these air cooled 3600 RPM industrials could find a home here as well.  I'd be interested in knowing if they get more reliable/long lived for example if you buy the large 10 HP engine and spin it at say 1800-2000 RPM instead of 3600 to run your 2500 watt generator, a ~50% engine power derating. 

Non taken, I was having fun and I guess I should have included a smiley. Here's a time line of Yanmars diesel history:
http://www.yanmar.com/about/
It looks like they built the first "Changfaoid" in 1933 which is likely before Changfa existed.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 21, 2008, 06:50:10 PM
that 1933 engine could just as easily be seen as similar to a blackstone, or a lister rolled onto its side
i really don't think that engine is the genisis of the changfa

now the yanmars of the early 80's? maybe they are

besides there is only so many ways to build a single cylinder diesel
upright horizonal, laid down horizontal, vertical shaft lawnmower type?

i don't know who first came up with the design, but would be interesting from a historical view

the changfa is a fairly well refined engine in my opinion, not perfect, but close enough to work with at least.

maybe one day down the road another option will come up that will be even more reliable and still be a simple design?

till then

"long live the mighty changfa"

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: sodbust on November 23, 2008, 04:00:44 PM
The number of parts and labor,, for a 3 hp are the same for a 8hp,, 12 hp.. So the money saved is not that much in the end..  I agree,, get one big enough to do some real work,, and make some real heat.  Your just spinning your wheels and money with a toy otherwise.

sodbust
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 23, 2008, 05:19:08 PM
The number of parts and labor,, for a 3 hp are the same for a 8hp,, 12 hp.. So the money saved is not that much in the end..  I agree,, get one big enough to do some real work,, and make some real heat.  Your just spinning your wheels and money with a toy otherwise.

sodbust

The labour is less for an air cooled engine as one does not have to modify the hopper cooling system of a Changfa as supplied and install a thermostat housing hoses and radiator system.  The major problem with an air cooled engine is the 3600 RPM.  Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaa BANG.  Silence.  Go buy a new engine.  These are the reasons I was asking about the idea of half speed operation of a larger air cooled single.  I can slap an engine, lovejoy coupler and ST head on a frame for the guy but I don't have time to fabricate a fancy liquid cooled plant for him.  I am up to my limit on projects I am doing just for my own needs right now.  One of these awaiting a round-tuit are a fancy liquid cooled plant employing my new Changfa 1115 that is awaiting my attention in the middle of the shop floor.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 23, 2008, 06:03:27 PM
" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaa BANG.  Silence.  Go buy a new engine"

that was the funniest way of putting an otherwise unpleasant subject i have read for a while, put a smile on my face.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: ZackaryMac on November 25, 2008, 03:07:19 AM
3600 rpm doesn't make an engine short lived, poor design and quality do. I've seen local farmers with Honda-powered equipment with thousands of hours on them and they still work great.
  I know I'm not comparing apples to apples, but the rpm doesn't necessarily make an engine short lived. Look at modern sport bikes that rev to 16,000rpm. They can put 10's of thousands of miles on them and still be strong. Yes, they don't rev to 16G all the time, but at highway speed many of them are at 6g or so.

Just my opinion of course *puts on super-duty flame suit*   :D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 25, 2008, 03:32:31 AM
Look at modern sport bikes that rev to 16,000rpm.

Just my opinion of course *puts on super-duty flame suit*   :D


What are you serious?  16,000rpm ?!  :o   Please permit me to share my prediction.

" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....aaaaaaaa BANG!"   :D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 25, 2008, 06:39:28 AM
RCA:

man you got it all wrong,, at 16krpm it goes like this

winnnnng,,,, dinnnng,, dinnng,,,,, winnnnnnggggggggggggg.... BLAM!!

:)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 25, 2008, 01:05:53 PM
RCA:

man you got it all wrong,, at 16krpm it goes like this

winnnnng,,,, dinnnng,, dinnng,,,,, winnnnnnggggggggggggg.... BLAM!!

:)

bob g

Well of course you got it right.  I was just using a formula I developed recently that I know works.   :D

In a 4 stroke, keeping the valves from leaving the cam profile and floating at 16,000 RPM is going to be a slight challenge no?  Actually everything about it is gonna be a challenge, and for what purpose, so a few loose screws can participate in the Darwin Awards?  Some excess speed motorcycle collisions involving the backs of semi truck trailers on the road have resembled a bug splattered on a windshield in recent times.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Canuck on November 25, 2008, 06:02:48 PM
Hi All,

With all due respect to all things big and slow moving... ZackaryMac has a valid point. The latest Honda 600RR has a redline of 15K RPM and makes max torque at about 11.5K.  (sounds more like ripping canvas than ringggg dinnnng) They will run for a very long time with minimal attention and don't require a person to take them apart/rebuild them before using.  Wonderful things can be done if the engineering is sound and manufacturing can work with the materials and tolerances dictated by that engineering.

One must choose the correct tool (or engine) for the job at hand but it's hard to beat engineering and production quality control when they work together. How the end user works with the tool is up to him/her... 150 MPH motorcycles and open flywheel engines have a lot in common as far as danger to the operator is concerned.

That doesn't mean that I'd like to be living next to a genset whose prime mover is running at 11 or 12 grand tho! and I wouldn't want to tackle a rebuild using a rock and a set of whitworth wrenches    :)


Kind of makes me wonder what Honda could do if they decided to make a Listeroid?

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: oliver90owner on November 25, 2008, 09:26:59 PM
Kind of makes me wonder what Honda could do if they decided to make a Listeroid?

Canuck,

Probably not a great improvement on the original Lister.  Making a proper copy of the Lister would be much better than most, by most accounts.  They could include improvements with modern systems but that would deviate from the original principles of the design.

Honda have always gone for the high revving route for extra power from a given size package.  Those engines are ideal applications for roller bearings in the mains and big ends.  A 650 rpm diesel engine would not be a good application for roller big ends, I would think.  I have litle experience of anything later than the early seventies' Honda motorcycles, but covered about 50,000 miles on Hondas in the few years before I graduated to 4 wheels, in the mid/late-sixties.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: ZackaryMac on November 26, 2008, 02:52:39 AM
That doesn't mean that I'd like to be living next to a genset whose prime mover is running at 11 or 12 grand tho!


It's funny you say that. When I worked in a motorcycle/snowmobile shop, I used to look at the 3 cyl 800cc liquid two stroke in the Mach Z, and tell the guys I thought that would make a nice wood-splitter engine.


They never got the joke in that I guess. A loud 150hp screaming-at-8000rpm big two-stroke gulping down gas, just to do what a 5hp engine does nicely. I always meant it in a red-neck kinda way.  ::)
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on November 26, 2008, 05:51:07 AM
hey what the hell is the deal here???

its one thing to pollute the thread with lister/oid posts,, (afterall this is a lister/oid forum), but

honda's??
snowmobile engine's??

get your own damn thread going!!!

lmao :)

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: oliver90owner on November 26, 2008, 07:24:54 AM
Fair game?  It is in the wrong section?  Perhaps 'other slow speed diesels' section.  Noooo....doesn't fit that one either :)

Now, talking about pollution......what do you guys think of that?

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: ZackaryMac on November 27, 2008, 01:56:58 AM
So, whatdya think about a Changfa-powered snowmobile?   ;D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on November 27, 2008, 03:59:46 AM
So, whatdya think about a Changfa-powered snowmobile?   ;D

Works for me!   :)
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 05, 2008, 08:24:31 PM
i have seen several of the 1115 changfa's doing very well with an st12 and a lovejoy

the 195 should be a lot less stress on the lovejoy.

there are a couple of guys having really good luck with the st10 on the 195, so you should be ok
i would think with the st12, although it might not be optimal or as high efficiency as it might be, but

we don't know that yet do we?
you will be the first with a 195 connected to  an st12 that i am aware of, and i look forward to how it works out.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 07, 2008, 01:15:22 AM
my changfa has a glowplug sort of thing
you remove it and supposedly insert some wick, soaked in oil, light it
and get it glowing,, insert it quickly and crankit up... i have no idea how well that works

the diameter is the same as a vw glowplug but has courser threads,, i have been thinking of
rethreading the vw glowplug and giving it a try.

failing that, the changfa glowfitting can be drilled out, tapped with the proper threads and a pencil
type glowplug installed i would think, might have to use a lock nut to keep it locked in?
i dunno,, i just started looking into that myself this week.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 07, 2008, 02:44:35 AM
the changfa has the tapered seat as well, and the body is the same size as the VW glowplug
but it has courser threads. the reach of the changfa unit is longer so even if one were to rethread the VW
plug i think you would have to turn down the hex down to the body size so it would reach in about a 1/4 inch deeper
to get to the taper seat.

i have considered getting a metric thread die and just chasing the threads on the VW unit,, likely the threads would not
be perfect but i don't think it would take much to hold it in. lots of pressure on it, but very little surface area so even
rather mangled threads would likly hold just fine. i know this will be my first option i am going to try.

it would appear the difference is about 1 less thread per inch, maybe 1.5 threads less than the VW per inch.

i am thinking it might work, for the following reason

several years ago i ordered a box of 5/8 grade 8 course threaded nuts,
i opened the box and found them to be double threaded, they had been run twice
with both course and fine threads!

for kicks i torque tested a couple of them and found them to hold 170ft/lbs on the fine thread and 180lbs on the course thread
and that is spec and they held just fine, cool

the bowman guy wanted to get them back and i told him no way,, they are mine now
he wanted to know why i wanted them, i told him i now have one nut to fit both threads for that emergency job
along the road where i am constantly digging for one or the other and always have the one i don't need :)

the plug was installed at about 25 ft/lbs torque, no more
even at 25ft/lbs the force is far greater than the less than 1000psi at combustion put against the ~3/8" seat area.
what does that work out to be, about 110lbs of force exerted on it if the combustion pressure reached 1000 psi
i am relatively certain that 25 ft/lbs of screw force is far greater than 110 lbs.

so i am thinking it will probably work , i will let you know

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: oliver90owner on December 07, 2008, 07:56:45 AM
has a glowplug sort of thing you remove it and supposedly insert some wick, soaked in oil, light it and get it glowing

Been around for many a year.

My modern Hatz engines have that possibility, although they have never been cold enough to need more than the excess-fuel contraption.

Field Marshall had that type of wickburner to start the 10.5(?)l single cylinder engine.  Ok, except for the odd time it just wedged itself under the valve. 

Actually not sure if it was ever the wick that did that or whether it was just the cartridge wads that were sometimes a nuisance.  Yes, started by firing a specially loaded 12 guage cartridge (engines of the era of end of WWII).

The wicks were soaked in a 'nitre' mixture and dried, so they would burn (smoulder) consistently once lit.  A bit ike the modern fag that burns away even if not dragged.

Regards, RAB
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 07, 2008, 07:57:18 AM
my changfa has a glowplug sort of thing
you remove it and supposedly insert some wick, soaked in oil, light it
and get it glowing,, insert it quickly and crankit up... i have no idea how well that works

the diameter is the same as a vw glowplug but has courser threads,, i have been thinking of
rethreading the vw glowplug and giving it a try.

failing that, the changfa glowfitting can be drilled out, tapped with the proper threads and a pencil
type glowplug installed i would think, might have to use a lock nut to keep it locked in?
i dunno,, i just started looking into that myself this week.

bob g

Bob,

Your 195 is a precup IDI engine whereas my 1115 is a DI. I have nothing like that that I am aware of on my engine.  Additionally I had actually not heard of this 'glow plug' existing on any of the Chinese diesels.  Can you please provide further description/information?  Does the plug you describe merely end up in the intake manifold near the intake valve event horizon or is it somehow ported into the precup volume within the head near the injector nozzle?

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 07, 2008, 04:52:14 PM
it screws down into the precup of the 195 changfa
and as far as i know the 1100, 1115 and 1125's being DI engines don't use them

maybe they have other provisions in the intake?
i don't know,, never paid the DI engines much attention.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 10, 2008, 04:27:14 PM
the engine really should have a diesel rated straight weight non detergent oil in it
however, i have delo 15/40 detergent oil in mine, but
i plan on a complete teardown after i finish testing so that i can modify the lube system
and get a full flow oil filter between the oil pump and the crankcase oil port.

afterwhich the use of modern 15/40 detergent oils will be what i will continue to use.

as far as idle speed, well the changfa 195 will run down to about 1000rm after it has warmed up, but not much lower
they seem to like 1500-2000rpm range quite well.

bob g
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Petersbpus on December 11, 2008, 07:51:27 AM
Maybe Bob G could post some pics of his oil filter setup, would like to see, for sure.
When I set mine up I welded two 3\8 couplers to the bottom of the oil pan, for  pickup and return
and used a 120v micro gear pump,(ebay cheap) coupled to an thermol snap disc so it comes on after the oil has heated. plus manual  (on) override.
Oil out of the pan ,thru oil coooler mounted in exhaust air of the ST12, thru the pump and on to a PH8A type spin on housing and back to bottom of oil pan,
When I want to change the oil I take off the filter, plug into grid 120v and flip the switch, I do still pull the magnetic drain plug to check and clean it,
BTW mine is Changfaoid, a  Xing Dong
That way I can tell the wife I have to go outside  to check  my Dong. ;D
The whole thing is mounted on an reclaimed 3 wheel welding cart, for quick deployment after a Hurricane,
also have 5000 - 10000 watt inverter for power during the  storm before safe deployment of genset is possible.
That inverter will carry my one heavy surge load for my 6\1 screw the power company project, now nearing compleation for summer A\C needs.
6\1 is splash lube only, so installed simular pump setup on it. without the  cooler
Bob P
Henery,
be sure to take off the pan and clean it nice before any runs.and don't run much with out a load.
I had my R180 7.7 coupled to a large turbo axial fan for loading, diesel powered shop fan ;D
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 11, 2008, 08:51:58 AM

When I set mine up I welded two 3\8 couplers to the bottom of the oil pan, for  pickup and return
and used a 120v micro gear pump,(ebay cheap) coupled to an thermol snap disc so it comes on after the oil has heated. plus manual  (on) override.
Oil out of the pan ,thru oil coooler mounted in exhaust air of the ST12, thru the pump and on to a PH8A type spin on housing and back to bottom of oil pan,
When I want to change the oil I take off the filter, plug into grid 120v and flip the switch, I do still pull the magnetic drain plug to check and clean it,Bob P

I like that external oil pump and filter loop idea.  It doesn't mess with the stock very high pressure oil system in the engine.  You could take it a step farther and series a large flat oil reservoir tank at oil pan level that would greatly increase the oil pan capacity of the engine for long unattended runs like you need at remote telecom repeater sites.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Petersbpus on December 11, 2008, 11:21:58 AM
The changfoid project gear pump was a Iwaki brand from some type of lab application,
For the Listeroid the pump is a micropump magnetic drive gear pump made by IDEX,
Warning Will Robinson!!
All these pumps have very job specific gear and seal combinations, only a few of which can handle  hot oils.
It's likely any used pumps you find for sale out there(ebay) will have the "old" part and model numbers which you cannot find on line info to determine the configuration of that specific pump,
BUT,
If you contact IDEX directly, they were very responsive to my multiple inquires as to suitability of a specific pump model.
even supplied parts blowups and a wire diagram for the 120\240VAC pump I ended up with.
When I disassembled the micro gear housing and bypass I cleaned out what sure looked like dried ink, so must have been on a printing press?
I am using the pressure side of the pump also connected to a Murphy pressure gauge\shutdown switch in case something
breaks and I pump the oil out of the listeroid.
  To stick with the subject of the thread,
I did use the Utterpower banjo bolt modification for oil pressure switch gauge  tap on my 1115.
I had read the thread of some one here blowing up oil filters when trying to use the banjo bolt to supply a filter, so I went with a separate system for cooling and filter
The 0 -100 psi gauge is pegged until it gets hot
Bob P
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 21, 2008, 05:44:42 AM
Hey Mobilebob!

Haven't seen this much Changfa activity for months !

Changfa owners UNITE ! Our day in the sun is near at hand.

Count me in for a Changfa section on the forum.

3 - S195 Engines (one with an ST-5 head)

1 - Launtop 7.5kw Diesel with a 4kw head



Cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: mobile_bob on December 21, 2008, 06:22:35 AM
see fella's it isn't something to be ashamed of,, come out of the closet changfa lovers!

i finally got head gskts,, thank god!
came in the mail today, so if i lose electricity due to the storm coming in tonight
i can get back up online in short order,, albeit a damn cold prospect!

snow still a comin down here in south tacoma,, got about 8-10inches on the ground
which is sorta unusual around here.

guess it is all that global warming bullshit old algore has been trying to make a buck off of.

:)

bob g

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 21, 2008, 01:30:00 PM
We've just had two major snow strorms in a row in as many days and a third is due later today here in Ontario.  For the past two days I have been test running my experimental JD175 plant which I recently got back to playing with.  This time for a first on straight filtered WVO with nearly 100 watts of injector heat.  Works like a charm.  No black in the exhaust, diesel knock sounds nice and easy. Exhaust temp about 500 F. The power into resitive heaters and the radiated heat from the engine, warmed up bearings, many shieves and four B-belts was used to help heat my shop building during the day long run times.  This plant only makes 2 kW flat out (has to turn too much stuff)the way it is set up if diesel and propane fumigation is used.  Otherwise, without propane the practical max is more like 1800 watts.  I was running a constant 1700 watts.

I fired up the new Changfa 1115 for the fun of it too.  It has been sitting for a year and the fuel system had to be purged of air for some reason.  Man that is a powerful engine.  I am gearing up to build a plant out of it hopefully this winter.  It will be used to spin a 3-phase 12-15 kW head to power the shop as a standby/backup to my present 9 kW 3-phase VW diesel plant.  In addition I may place a huge 400 amp, 50 VDC 20 kW DC generator on the frame which I have so this plant can double as a DC welder directly instead of using the AC power to run my big Miller set.  This old school, designed to last a century generator head weighs easy 800+ lbs and has really massive triple row brush gear.

All in a continuing effort to be ready for the longest planned utility outage ever, being off-grid.

BTW, I still need to acquire a 1800 RPM, 3-phase AC head for my big Changfa in case someone here within driving distance (southern Ontario) has one for sale for a good deal.

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 22, 2008, 03:27:49 AM
rcavictim,

Here's where I bought my ST5 head. I think John also has 7.5kw and 10kw heads in stock.
I believe he's in Ontario. I had mine trucked to western Canada.

http://www.woodnstuff.ca/

Cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Stan on December 22, 2008, 05:15:17 AM
What did the trucking cost you?
Stan
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 22, 2008, 04:31:12 PM

I used Riemer Trucking. I think shipping cost around $125.

Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Stan on December 22, 2008, 04:49:51 PM
And you are where?
Stan
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 22, 2008, 04:58:43 PM
Quote

Mine is not an air cooled vertical and by the way how dare you? It's a real McCoy horizontal water cooled. Just like a Changfa but probably designed before the Changfa and likely better built as Yanmar claims they did this sort of thing first. If you look at the various YouTube videos of Yanmar marine diesels it looks just like them except horizontal. I'm pretty sure I'm in as your Changfas are really Yanmaroids.

Well I was not meaning any disrespect.  I have never seen anything from Yanmar except the air cooled verticals like the ones now being sold as industrial diesel engines by Princess Auto and also one of the members here from Ontario is a stocking dealer of these air cooled small high speed vertical diesels. 

Incidentally I proposed adding a cubbyhole where these air cooled 3600 RPM industrials could find a home here as well.  I'd be interested in knowing if they get more reliable/long lived for example if you buy the large 10 HP engine and spin it at say 1800-2000 RPM instead of 3600 to run your 2500 watt generator, a ~50% engine power derating. 


rcavictim,

I bought one of these air cooled diesels and mounted it on a channel base along with a 4kw head and a belt drive.

Due to BHP requirements, 2400 rpm is about the slowest you can go with a 4kw head.

If you drive a smaller head (eg: 2 or 3 kw) you might be able to run it at 1800 rpm.

I adjusted the speed control to 2400rpm and it holds that speed at various loads without any problem.

For additional flywheel effect at the reduced speed, I put a 15 lb. 3 groove sheave on the engine (even though I only use two of the grooves).

The engine seems very happy running 1200 rpm below it's rated speed of 3600. May last longer too!
These engines seem to be very durable. It's very easy to start with the pull-starter, although I do intend to wire up the electric starter when I get around to it.
I ordered mine directly from Launtop in China. This is the same make as Princess Auto uses, so I would be comfortable recommending one if you were thinking of buy a 10HP unit for a generator.

I only have about 2 loaded hours on my unit so far (running on biodiesel).
I wonder if these would run on WVO ??.
They do have a steel line from the pump to the injector which could be heat traced if necessary. !!

Cheers,
Veggie











Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 22, 2008, 04:59:39 PM
Stan,

Location is Calgary

veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 23, 2008, 12:22:22 AM
Quote

Mine is not an air cooled vertical and by the way how dare you? It's a real McCoy horizontal water cooled. Just like a Changfa but probably designed before the Changfa and likely better built as Yanmar claims they did this sort of thing first. If you look at the various YouTube videos of Yanmar marine diesels it looks just like them except horizontal. I'm pretty sure I'm in as your Changfas are really Yanmaroids.

Well I was not meaning any disrespect.  I have never seen anything from Yanmar except the air cooled verticals like the ones now being sold as industrial diesel engines by Princess Auto and also one of the members here from Ontario is a stocking dealer of these air cooled small high speed vertical diesels. 

Incidentally I proposed adding a cubbyhole where these air cooled 3600 RPM industrials could find a home here as well.  I'd be interested in knowing if they get more reliable/long lived for example if you buy the large 10 HP engine and spin it at say 1800-2000 RPM instead of 3600 to run your 2500 watt generator, a ~50% engine power derating. 


rcavictim,

I bought one of these air cooled diesels and mounted it on a channel base along with a 4kw head and a belt drive.

Due to BHP requirements, 2400 rpm is about the slowest you can go with a 4kw head.

If you drive a smaller head (eg: 2 or 3 kw) you might be able to run it at 1800 rpm.

I adjusted the speed control to 2400rpm and it holds that speed at various loads without any problem.

For additional flywheel effect at the reduced speed, I put a 15 lb. 3 groove sheave on the engine (even though I only use two of the grooves).

The engine seems very happy running 1200 rpm below it's rated speed of 3600. May last longer too!
These engines seem to be very durable. It's very easy to start with the pull-starter, although I do intend to wire up the electric starter when I get around to it.
I ordered mine directly from Launtop in China. This is the same make as Princess Auto uses, so I would be comfortable recommending one if you were thinking of buy a 10HP unit for a generator.

I only have about 2 loaded hours on my unit so far (running on biodiesel).
I wonder if these would run on WVO ??.
They do have a steel line from the pump to the injector which could be heat traced if necessary. !!

Cheers,
Veggie



Interesting.  So you are belt driving a 3600 RPM head with the engine at 2500 RPM and making 4 kW of E?

I'm curious why you would not have bought the engine from Princess.  When they had these on a sale I'm sure that would have been cheaper than what you must have paid with shipping across the ocean. You would have had the unbeatable Princess warranty as well!

As far as WVO goes, IME if you fully warm up the engine on diesel the injector high pressure line gets hot from the fuel that gets heated by the hot injection pump.  Merely insulating this line ought to be good enough.  That said you absolutely have to add heat to the injector itself.  I'm putting about 100 watts into a nichrome wire wrapped around the injector on my JD 175A running almost fully loaded at 1800 RPM. It gets the injector up to about 350-400F and the engine runs very well on WVO.  If I reduce heat to 50 watts the injector is still hotter than the head but it starts to sound distressed and is clearly fouling itself. Clearly much heat on the injector is the trick.  After the run I turn off the injector heat and switch over to the diesel fuel tank to flush out the heavy oil and cool the injector.  After about 5 minutes back on diesel I take the load off, reduce throttle and cool the engine before shutting down.

To power the injector heater I use a variac into a high current secondary step down xfmer.  It was a filament xfmer for a broadcast transmitter tube.  It can source 50 amps at 12 volts.  I run about 25 amps at 3.5 volts out of it into a four turn heating coil (about 12" of #12 gauge nichrome wire) wrapped tightly around the lower half of the injector body and insulated/held in place with stove cement.  I salvaged the nichrome wire from a ceramic high wattage industrial motor starting resistor.  An old veteran motor shop may be able to help you here.  You might be able to use the core from a kitchen oven element (bake or broil) if you can get it out of the stainless steel black outer tubing.

You could make your own step-down xfmer by modifying a microwave oven power xfmer.

Due to all the variables you fully realize that you are on your own if you damage your engine.







Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Stan on December 23, 2008, 02:26:45 AM
Veggie, you're just over the rocks from here.  If you ever get over here skiing, let me know we can have a coffee.
Stan
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 23, 2008, 04:00:02 AM
rcavictim,

I bought the engine(s) from China because my company was bringing a container load of goods to Canada. Freight was almost nothing, and the engine prices were much less than the Princess Auto sale price (really !). I virtually live at Princess Auto so I am aware of the deal they offered.
The main objective was to bring over my Changfa's. I just added the Launtop engines for fun and curiosity. Both turned out to be wonderful little jewels and the whole thing has turned into a great hobby. I just love diesels.

Stan,
Sounds great. Are you off-grid with your setup?, or operating a standby system ?

Cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Stan on December 23, 2008, 04:29:29 AM
Nope, not offgrid, I live in town.  Just a hobby, with potential real life benefits.  Since I started rebuilding Penelope we haven't had a single power outage.  Best insurance I ever bought  ;D
Stan
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 23, 2008, 05:23:34 AM
rcavictim,

Further to our discussion on air cooled Chinese diesels (and for anyone else who's interested), here is a bit more information on my generator project.

Go to the website below and scroll down the home page until you see the link to the "Launtop 4kw Generator project".

www.logicworks.ca (http://www.logicworks.ca)

Cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 23, 2008, 05:31:59 AM
PS: So far this thread has had 1737 views and 102 replies.

That's a lot of interest in Changfa engines. This is great !

Does this not qualify for a CHANGFA section on the forum ??

How about some of you hero members putting some pressure on the forum moderator ??  :)

Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 23, 2008, 10:58:42 AM

I run about 25 amps at 3.5 volts out of it into a four turn heating coil (about 12" of #12 gauge nichrome wire) wrapped tightly around the lower half of the injector body and insulated/held in place with stove cement.  I salvaged the nichrome wire from a ceramic high wattage industrial motor starting resistor. 


I like the idea of heating the injector body itself rather than the fuel line. Nichrome wire is easy to salvage from an old hot water tank heating element.
How did you insulate between the injector body and the nichrome wire ?
Where does one get 'stove cement' ? Is it just refractory like you get for wood stove that you mix with water to a heavy paste ?
How did you do the transition between nichrome and your copper power cable ?

Jens

The beauty of working with 3 or 4 volts is you don't get a shock hazard or much of a spark and little insulation is required.  The stove cement comes in a prepared paste from the hardware store.  It is the Sodium Borosilicate stuff used to install firebrick, etc.  You could also use muffler cement. To insulate the nichrome I had a bunch of tiny ceramic beads strung the length of the wire but most got broken navigating the tight clearance between the injector body and the two mounting studs.  Form/prepare the wire on the injector removed from the engine.  You could just use the cement without the beads.  I formed eyelet loops at the ends of the nichrome and bolted the copper #10 flex wires with small brass machine screws, nuts and flatwashers.  You can forget solder here.  The upper end of the heating wire does a single loop around the input stem which sticks out the side of the injector body at 90 degrees before it terminates.  This helps secure the element from rotating or moving and adds a little heat where you also need it. The heater is wound onto the injector between the input port and where it meets the head, NOT up away from the engine near the back of the injector at the overflow exit port.

I initially used about 8 parallel strands of finer nichrome wire from a radiant heater snaked through the ceramic beads.  It was much more flexible and I did not break the beads but some fuel drops got into the heater and quickly eroded the wire leading to open circuits and a heater failure in rather short order (first day).  The #12 single strand has been going strong for many hours with no signs of fatigue.

As a bonus, you will find that this heater helps prep the engine for cold weather starts on regular diesel, even though some experts will tell you that this is nearly impossible.  Of course you'd need to arrange a storage battery just for this purpose if you are setting it up to start without mains available.  Once running the 120 volt generator AC powers the heater transformer.  If you already have a 12 volt storage battery for cranking you could wire a DIY series resistor made from the same nichrome to limit the wattage to this injector heater, but the battery better be a big one since you want to run the heater for about 5 minutes before it will do much good as a cold start aid.  That series R might as well be installed inside the metal intake manifold so it gets hot and gives the engine a shot of hot air rather than wasting this energy entirely.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 23, 2008, 11:01:57 AM
rcavictim,

Further to our discussion on air cooled Chinese diesels (and for anyone else who's interested), here is a bit more information on my generator project.

Go to the website below and scroll down the home page until you see the link to the "Launtop 4kw Generator project".

www.logicworks.ca (http://www.logicworks.ca)

Cheers,
Veggie

Veggie,

Really clean, attractive job there!  I like the oil drain valve and belt guard.

Did you import your Changfa 195 also as part of this 'free shipping' opportunity?
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rcavictim on December 23, 2008, 03:43:04 PM

I run about 25 amps at 3.5 volts out of it into a four turn heating coil (about 12" of #12 gauge nichrome wire) wrapped tightly around the lower half of the injector body and insulated/held in place with stove cement.  I salvaged the nichrome wire from a ceramic high wattage industrial motor starting resistor. 


I like the idea of heating the injector body itself rather than the fuel line. Nichrome wire is easy to salvage from an old hot water tank heating element.
How did you insulate between the injector body and the nichrome wire ?
Where does one get 'stove cement' ? Is it just refractory like you get for wood stove that you mix with water to a heavy paste ?
How did you do the transition between nichrome and your copper power cable ?

Jens

The beauty of working with 3 or 4 volts is you don't get a shock hazard or much of a spark and little insulation is required.  The stove cement comes in a prepared paste from the hardware store.  It is the Sodium Borosilicate stuff used to install firebrick, etc. 

I was more concerned with the wire turns shorting out against the injector metal body (and themselves). I would have assumed you need some heat resistant yet heat conductive core to wind the wire onto.
Interesting .... some experimentation will be in order .....
Thanks !

Jens

Jens, 

The nichrome wire is very stiff and springy.  Even despite best efforts to wind it tight around the injector body it will relax creating an air gap.  This is your electrical insulation.  A 1/32, 1/16 to 3/32 inch gap around the wire is fine.  It runs a dull red/orange operating so not to worry about the heat getting to the injector.  Don't do all the cement work at one time.  You should spoon in small amounts of cement to hold it in this floating position and then let it cure to tack it into position. You can energize the element to low power to help cure the cement but don't go crazy or you will weld the internals of the injector and it will stick.  I wouldn't even take it to the temperature of boiling water at this stage if off the engine.  My JD engine manual warns to cool down the engine by idling and not just kill it after running hard because the hot injector can sieze.  Actually I'd advise after winding and creating eyelets to re-install the injector so that your cement job does not cause any fit problems.  It is pretty tight in there.

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Veggiefuel on December 23, 2008, 04:23:20 PM
Hi guys,

I bought two injection line heaters from Fattywagons.
They come as a kit with connector terminals, silicone tape, and insulted wires.
I asked them the custom make 2 wires at 14" each (for my two Changfa's).
They were most helpful.
I think the whole thing cost me $50

Look here... http://www.fattywagons.com/fwproducts.htm

Cheers,
Veggie
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: rdbates1 on December 15, 2019, 04:26:05 AM
I realize that this is ancient thread but Bob G you mentioned that you have a ton of info about using an S195 for cogen.  I have one that I will be running 24/7 on wmo driving a 3.8 kw dc generator powering grid tie inverters and an ac generator which will act as backup power and will run the 2hp pool pump to keep load on the engine.  I'd be very interested in what you have for exhaust heat exchangers and if there is a way to sync the ac generator with the ac mains that would meet code rather than the grid tie inverter.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Ian M on December 29, 2019, 04:36:34 PM
Just out of interest how much fuel would it take to generate  kwh of electric, my electric supplier is installing meters that allows you to input into the system (for solar panels) they pay the same as you buy the electric for, I do not think  I would be able to use grid tie system direct from generator but would need to turn to battery then back to 240v, I bet that if I check the contract I can only input from solar power, I will have a look and see
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: glort on December 30, 2019, 05:18:51 AM

Solar power IS your best Bet.  I VERY much doubt it would be worth your while running an engine even if the fuel is free unless you have unusual Circumstances.  Used panels are so Cheap I found over 5 KW worth of good Panels, 3KW of which were brands new last week.  Drove by the dumpsters earlier today adn there are still some there so I'll be going back to get them when it cools down to 35o C or so.

If you are talking Diesel, a Litre of fuel has about 10 Kwh Of energy in it. You then have to calculate your efficiency losses for the Engine, the generator and the conversion.

I ran a small Diesel engine ( on used veg oil and drove a 3 Phase Induction motor in C2C configuration through a 3 Phase bridge Rectifier and Into a standard solar inverter. The inverter makes the engine hunt as the Mean power point tracking loads and unloads the engine trying to find the sweet spot but it's more of an annoyance with the sound than anything detrimental.
Was a very simple setup and works perfectly.

Whether it is viable long term or not as in if you actual would make a profit on your investment in the setup, I doubt it unless as I said you have very unusual circumstances.  I have well and truly the capability of doing it myself. I have A number of decent size Diesels. I have a 12 KW induction Motor and I have the inverters and fuel.  Haven't bothered because even on a 1:1 Basis it's not worth it where the solar makes me more power than I can use 8 months of the year and my large setup paid for itself in about 10 months.

I think this is an idea that has struck all us DIYER's but profitability and viability is a different thing.
Power may seem like it costs a  lot to but but trying to make it cheaper yourself isn't so easy ONLY way I know is with solar.

Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Ian M on December 30, 2019, 10:28:46 PM
You are right same output as heating oil I had not thought about it like that, with losses I would not make anything on it, I would use solar but surrounded by trees I know I would still get some power out but would be a lot down, all depends what I can get the panels for might have another look at it, it would be good to cut energy costs
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: glort on December 31, 2019, 12:25:03 AM

I put panels on my fathers Garage.
Also surrounded by trees, wrong orientation, wrong tilt.  Still cut his power bills 3 out of 4 quarters by half.
I only have a 2KW inverter on it but with about 4Kw of panels, all used.  In winter I doubt the direct sun ever touches the panels and they are probably making a few hundred watts at any time.  Checked it late in the afternoon the other day and it was making 1.6 KW. Thought that was a bit low and had a look at the panels. Covered in dust and leaves so I'll have to get up next week and give them a clean.

I have about 1.2 KW worth of panels on the south ( wrong) side of My shed atm under a tree laying near flat. These were a bunch of " Orphan' panels I put up there in the last space on the shed just to see what they would do. In winter, Nothing. in summer, more than I expected.  Shut down the other arrays the other day and didn't worry about this one because I thought it wasn't givng anything .  Very surprised to find it had been generating well over 4 KWh despite the intense smoke haze we have been having which has knocked my other arrays around a lot as well.

I think you are correct, it's all about the ROI. putting panels in bad locations isn't really about the lower outputs, it's about the cost to set up for the outputs you can get in return.  Even if the outputs are low, if you can pay off the investment in a decent time frame, then may still be worth it. In my couple of experiments, they have well exceded what I was lead to believe they would. In summer at least but if you can get worthwhile gains then.....

I have set up ground mount frames the last 3 winters that I can easily optomise for winter outputs.  They generate a lot of much needed power. When summer comes and the other roof arrays are making more than I can use, I Pack the ground mount panels up till I need them again. I have a couple of posts in the ground for each run of 5 panels and just screw a rail to them and lean the panels against them. They are set to give the best winter angle which I set them with an angle meter on my phone which is handy.

This winter I am going to heat the house with either a gas water heater or spa heater with the gas burner replaced with an oil burner. That should take a lot of the load off the solar which struggles in the winter not so much due to lower radiation as I have every inverter well over clocked so their outputs are still 80%+, but rather they are down because of the 8 hours winter daylight compared to the 14 Hours in summer.

Switched all the solar off yesterday as I checked my meters and am too far ahead.  AC is already going for the anticipated 45oC here today so that will burn a few KW back.  Waiting for the smoke from the fires to clear to go for a record solar run. so far my best day is 84 KW a few months back., Just had summer solstice so on a CLEAR day, should be able to crack that pretty easy.
Have PLENTY more panels and a couple of inverters I could add in except I'm actualy getting to the point that the wires from the Pole are the weak point. 

If Only I could store a MWh for winter I'd be laughing.
Title: Re: Changfa engine?
Post by: Ian M on December 31, 2019, 09:16:59 AM
The French system is good because you can input into the grid when the sun shines and take out when not, you also get a off peak night rate which means you can sell a Kw to them for .14 and buy a night one back for about .09 I have electric and wood heating so I can use wood to keep power down, if I could cut yearly bills in half that would be great, I am a electrician, and am happy to work on a roof so a DIY installation should be no problem, I just need to find good low cost panels