Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: GuyFawkes on March 17, 2006, 01:03:59 PM
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US spends its way to 28 Eiffel towers: made out of pure gold
From Tim Reid in Washington
IF YOU are worried about how much you owe on your credit cards, this might put things in perspective: America’s national debt limit was increased yesterday to $9 trillion. That’s $9,000,000,000,000 — enough to buy Buckingham Palace 9,000 times.
The increase, passed by Congress, allows the Government to borrow another $781 billion (£447 billion), increasing the national debt limit — the maximum America can borrow — from $8 trillion and $184 billion to $8 trillion and $961 billion.
If the debt ceiling, which is set by Congress, had not been raised by March 24, the Administration would not have been able to borrow more money and the US would have begun to default on its domestic and foreign obligations, an untenable consequence.
The vote to increase the debt limit, requested by the White House, is the fourth since Mr Bush took office. In 2001 the national debt was $5.7 trillion. Today it has ballooned to $8.2 trillion, figures rarely talked about in Washington.
The national debt is the total amount owed by the Government. It is not to be confused with the federal budget deficit, which is the yearly amount by which spending exceeds revenue. When budget deficits are big, the national debt inevitably increases.
When Mr Bush took office he inherited a $236 billion budget surplus. Bill Clinton, his predecessor, had used budget surpluses to pay down some of the national debt in his last two years in office. Mr Bush also inherited some extraordinarily overoptimistic projections. Experts pronounced that budget surpluses would increase to $5.6 trillion over ten years, and there was even heady talk of paying off the entire national debt with the proceeds.
Since then a combination of factors — the September 11, 2001, attacks, unexpectedly low tax revenues, Mr Bush’s tax cuts and runaway government spending — have plunged the yearly budget back into deficit. This year it will reach nearly $400 billion.
What worries many analysts is the amount of US debt financed by foreign governments and banks, particularly in Asia. The national debt is split between publicly held debt — money owed to US and foreign investors — and money owed to branches of the Government. Nearly half the publicly owed debt is held by foreigners. Japan is the biggest creditor, at $668 billion. China, the second-biggest, recently increased its stake by $40 billion to $263 billion.
“We used to have much less held by foreigners,” Alice Rivlin, a former budget director for Mr Clinton, said. “It makes you much more vulnerable to people’s agendas.”
Historically, today’s national debt is the highest in dollar terms, but not as a percentage of GDP. In 1946 it was $270 billion — 122 per cent of GDP.
Today it is 65 per cent of GDP, very close to the postwar high of 67 per cent in 1996.
America has had a national debt since 1791, when it was $75 million. Today it rises by that amount every hour.
$9 TRILLION
# Is roughly four times Britain’s GDP
# Equates to $1,500 for every man, woman and child in the world
# Would buy all the tea in China. In fact it would buy all the tea in the world for the next 2,000 years.
# Is enough to solve the Palestinian crisis by rehousing every Israeli and Palestinian family in a £1.5m detached house in Henley-on-Thames
# Would build 28 Eiffel Towers — constructed out of gold.
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We have all been born not into a birthright of land and freedom, but the economic bondage of debt. If we have not borrowed it ourselves it has been borrowed in our name by the government of this country and our attempts to further ourselves and our families is a struggle against the chains they have bound to us. If we work and produce they are there taking our substance, if we purchase land or a home they are there to tax our purchase. we do not own land anymore we purchase the right to rent it from the government. if you do not believe this stop paying your taxes and see who owns it.
They have tricked our people with a phoney money system. It works like this. All money today is created through debt. Banks are able to make something out of nothing. The formula works like this 0 = A - A. In other words the Banks create a deposit out of thin air when they create a loan. Imagine you borrow $50,000. The bank creates a loan for $50,000 and also deposits it into your checking account $50,000. The accounting is 0 = 50.000 - 50,000. in essence banks were given the power to monetize our assets and then charge us interest for them.
This is where the true destructive power of usery lies. since all money is created through debt and all debt has interest on it. then all the money in the world is borrowed and debt is being paid on it to these fake money scheme crooks, but where does the money come from to pay the interest on the debt? Lets look at our $50,000 example. Imagine we live in a small village and the 50,000 represents all the money that exists and we borrowed it at 10% interest. at the end of the year we owe the 50,000 plus the 10% interest or 5,000. When we pay the 5,000 back to the banker there is only 45,000 left yet we still owe 50,000. At the end of 5 years we have paid 25,000 in interest yet still owe 50,000. How can we pay back the whole 50,000 when only 25,000 is left? The answer is we can't. after 10 years all 50,000 has been paid back to the banker as interest and no more money exists. the next year the banker takes your property for non payment on your loan. It is simply a matter of time before all wealth is in the hands of the bankers. The fact is that almost every home in america now has a mortgage on it. They are the land owners and we have become the renters. What have they done to earn approximately 30% of your income while the government taxes you another 40% to pay interest on its debts borrowed in your name leaving almost every family struggling to survive?
They have created an environment in which our people send their wives to work to try to get ahead and instead of our people having children our production is given to foreigners who are slowly taking over our country by sheer numbers. Do not be fooled this is no accident.
Pro 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower [is] servant to the lender.
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I feel your pain, but really, what's the alternative? Go back to the land and live hand to mouth? We'd be back to feudalism within a decade or so after 80% of the population fell victim to starvation, disease and violence. I'm sure that would please the anti-capitalists to no end, those who survive, anyway.
Halfnuts
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"Go back to the land and live hand to mouth? We'd be back to feudalism within a decade or so after 80% of the population fell victim to starvation, disease and violence."
Is this really the only alternative to assuming more national debt? Wouldn't repealing the tax cuts, bringing our troops home, and conserving our resources a bit offer another choice? If we spent as much on providing clean water and health care to the poverty stricken of the world, we might not need the military we currently have. Just one opinion, your mileage may vary. ;D
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'Halfnuts' is a self-depreciating nickname. .... :P
I agree with him.
You ever notice who has the BIG houses and the most toys??? Those deep in debt, but able to pay it. As long as the Commie/Socialist/Liberal/Democrat/Unions and other anti-(Capitalist)Americans don't mess it up we'll continue to out *think* and out produce the rest of the world and pay the bills as they become due.....and live well doing it.
....but I'm in favor of throwing and politician OUT of office that won't support and VOTE for tax relief, line item veto, and spending limits tied to GDP, among other things....
I would WISH for a Constitutional Amendment saying-- 'Only Those That Produce Will Vote', but I have a better sense of reality than that. ;)
The military will always be nessesary because human nature remains the same no matter how 'civilized' we (arrogantly) think we've become. Ying and Yang, Hot and Cold, High and Low. The earth works by evening out the opposites and strenght and weakness in humans is no different. There's also something to be said for 'Energetic/ambitious/creative and interested' verus 'Lazy/dumb/slothfull/ and ignorant', too. :o :o
Commerce and Freedom are both better when the ones doing the work get the money....and KEEP it!
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I could use that $30'000 thay say is my part off it. That would be a lot of toys.
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Ah, will just sell some of that BLM land over by Hottaters and pay down the debt. Dirk is already getting the signs painted up. When those Calif. hear there is geothermal water there they will be rushing to buy and fence.
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And everyone wondered why chicken little never made bread again
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re: my earlier comments, RPG, I thought I saw Rocket's horse galloping down the rutted "back to the gold standard" trail, so I was trying to head that gelding off. Gold is just as much a proxy for goods as is paper money based on credit. If you read the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy," a 5-book trilogy written by the genius Douglas Adams (now sadly deceased), you'll discover that we are descended from the useless one-third of the ancient Golgafrincham civilization, the economy of which was based on dried leaves as their legal tender. It worked for them, and we're here, so should we be surprised that our economy is based on thin dry flakes of cellulose?
Certainly we should reduce the debt, declare victory and get out of Iraq, nuke Iran on the way (oops, sorry about that!) and return to taking care of our own people. I don't think we have any duty to assume the role you seem to advocate of benefactor to all the world's poor. Too many times foreign aid has been used as a vehicle for monkeying with others' self-determination and soverignty. And it is because the US tends to intrude into other nations' business that we are so hated abroad. But doing anything to reduce the debt also reduces politicians' power, so that is going to be vigorously resisted.
Halfnuts
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Yeah Halfnuts, I don't really think we necessarily owe our collective assets to all the worlds poor, however, part of the reason they seem to hate us more with every passing day is because of how we continue to take what they consider to be theirs.
There are a couple good books I've read recently that have opened my eyes wider than I previously thought possible: "All the Shah's Men" and, even more current, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man", by John Perkins. Like any books, they reflect the opinions of the authors, but they have the ring of truth to me.
IMHO, we could give away the next trillion dollars of debt and achieve a lot more than we got from the last few trillion. :)
You are absolutely right about the politicians however.
Ray
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RPG, I dunno. A friend's wife unceremoniously dumped him, took the house, all his assets and kids. So after hitting rock bottom, he picked himself up, went shopping and ordered himself a mail-order bride from Belarus. If "7 of 9" from Star Trek had a sister, this one could be her. Think professional underwear model with a degree in Biology and you've about got the picture. Poetic justice, I'd say. Anyway, after the big Fed Ex box with the air-holes in it arrived and he had time to inspect the contents for damage, he invited me over to meet her and one of the first things she remarked on was that she saw American flags flying everywhere. She asked if it was a holiday or some special occasion. She said that was unheard of in Europe outside of official buildings. That lead to a long discussion of politics. Her take on it was that most countries hate the US because we are so propserous. We have a higher standard of living and more opportunities available to our citizens than do the socialist-leaning countries. Because of that we are despised by people who, in fact, hate the way they live but feel essentially trapped and powerless to change things.* Though they hate us, at the same time all the world wants to emigrate to the US.
As far as "taking what they consider to be theirs" goes, that's just a fig-leaf. It's not the REAL reason. Give a man a fish and he won't be hungry today. Teach him how to fish and he will never be hungry. Unfortunately, our government seems to think that everybody wants to learn to fish. Just like you can't push on a rope, you can't export freedom/democracy/western ideals. Those things have to be wanted first, and that thought seems to have eluded our leaders who embark on "nation-building" and other adventures to everyone's detriment.
Halfnuts
* However, it seems that sitting around and complaining about things one can't control is a Russian national past-time. Still, she's easy on the eyes.
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As long as the Commie/Socialist/Liberal/Democrat/Unions and other anti-(Capitalist)Americans don't mess it up
That's a small perspective for a large person.
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Not to presume to speak for the 'tater, but that sort of sounds like a typical put-down coming from a liberal. And I thought you people were always telling the world how tolerant you are! ;)
I rather think he's hit the nail on the head. All the groups he cites are alike in that they advocate (in fact they demand) that the individual must rely on the collective to achieve some goal, whereas the conservative approach stresses more individual responsibility and self-determinism. Hotater's identifying a particular class of villains is consistent with his world-view, so how 'bout lightening up?
Halfnuts
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Ahhhh....now I see! The only problem in the conservative viewpoint is that public perception is that they have been hijacked by the conrad black's of the world. Individualism to the point that I can screw as many people as I want to get to the top. Much like the fanatics that have hijacked the Muslim religeon.
Stan
btw...I consider myself to be apolitical.
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How much individual responsibility and self determination are involved in giving a tax cut to someone who is generating a million dollar annual income from dividends generated from investments made by his/her grandparents? Are they really "earning" that income if the only work they do is sign checks?
Speaking only for myself, I'm all for cutting taxes on anyone who actually does work and earn wages. I think that cuts out most of those actually benefiting from the tax "relief" of recent years that has helped create the past ~$3 trillion of national debt generated by George W. I agree with you Halfnuts, how 'bout lightening up. :)
Just like that Guy Fawkes to throw this flaming bomb and then disappear into the mists of the internet.
Ray
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Yes, dubya's been a disappointment. He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. That's the problem many folks have with government. It has grown too powerful and intrusive. There probably needs to be a housecleaning every so often to redefine what the people's priorities are and what they expect from their government. Merely throwing the current horsethief out just opens the door for another one to saunter in.
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Just like that Guy Fawkes to throw this flaming bomb and then disappear into the mists of the internet.
sorry, it was just the vision of 28 solid gold eiffel towers....
(if an alien) put them on mars and we'd be there by summer.
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Awful towers, or Offal towers?
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How do you give an income tax cut to the 40% of Americans that don't pay any?
Why are there any people who don't pay any income tax?
Everyone should pay something. No one should pay nothing.
Everyone wants to ride, but very few want to push the cart.
What turns one person's need into an entitlement to someone else's life energy? Maybe someone else has enough problems already, but still has enough self respect to not make demands. Who decides the turning point?
What makes it your buisness to decide how much someone else should pay?
What happens if that rich slob living on inherited wealth removes it from the investment pool? How many people lose jobs? How many start up ventures don't start? Does that mean it's not really un-earned income?
Why don't conservatives act conservative? Why do liberals tell you what you can't say or do?
why do politicians crave power so much they will destroy thier own country to get back into power? Why do we put up with it?
Why do fighters for the religeon of peace kill thier own kind?
What will the world be like in another generation?
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Thats a lot of questions with no good answeres....
I pay my taxes, I pay a lot and I don't like it but I pay....
I vote for the party that offends me least, and torture the guy who shows up at my begging for my vote with tough questions.
I pay my taxes, I vote, I work and then I play with my son and love my wife.
Thats all I can do and its all that realy matters.
Doug
Oh ya and when I die I want my ashes loaded in 12G shot gun shells so all my friends and family can send me off with a bang....
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[Democrats, unionists, liberals, etc] are alike in that they advocate (in fact they demand) that the individual must rely on the collective to achieve some goal, whereas the conservative approach stresses more individual responsibility and self-determinism.
Yes, dubya's been a disappointment. He talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
This takes the blue ribbon for hypocrisy. Bush was a drunk, playboy, drug abuser for half his life, he never learned a trade, never took responsibility for his actions, poor student, poor serviceman, failed oil executive. You lecture about responsibility and self-determination, then say you're disappointed with Bush. It's precisely because I do know something about responsibility and self-determination that I and many like me knew from square one that he is no leader.
You all didn't elect him for his resume, you elected him because of his 'moral compass' or 'faith' or some shite like that. What you want is called a king.
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Got a Queen, nice lady and wish she would vissit more but....
I prefer my politicians to be poorly enough gaurded that I can hit them with a pot Kraft dinner.
My MP better be ready to show up on my door step and suck up to me in person for a vote.
A politician personal life and past are generaly his/her own buisness provided no laws were broken.
If your queer and can stand on my door step and tell me what I don't want to hear, thats still better than strait liar.
Religion is a fine thing in moderation.
My memory is long, a term in the house is short.
Doug
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sometimes you vote for a person just because he is the lesser of two evil// i usually do not vote for someone as much as I vote against someone//anyway, it not a permanent position/they can be voted out just as easy//sid
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I voted for the comie who knocked at my door and looked me in the eye and said he didn't have an answere to all my questions. What's sadder still Sid is what answere he did have I liked....
Doug
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doug/ one good thing is that we can vote.. so many people in this world can not.sid
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Procrustes,
You really need to get your facts straight before you spout off like that…it makes you sound like some idiot goofball..which I'm sure you are not. Start with a few details… check the facts then get back with us on what you find.
Joe
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Procrustes,
You really need to get your facts straight before you spout off like that…it makes you sound like some idiot goofball..which I'm sure you are not. Start with a few details… check the facts then get back with us on what you find.
Joe
if procrustes is wrong, then most of the rest of the world is wrong too, all those things are common knowledge here, anyone who can read a newspaper knows it.
anyone of shall we say higher intelligence who goes out and looks to information finds a lot more, for example in any other democratic country I can think of diebold would cost lots of civil servants and elected politicians their jobs.
Lets start with some respected newspapers, who would have had their asses sued off for libel..
Bush and alcoholism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
Bush and military service
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/opinion/lechliter.pdf
Bush (family) and oil and haliburton
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html
Bush and the Saudi royal family
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1645527.stm
Bush and floridagate
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/24/wus24.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2000/12/14/wbush14.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm
Bush and diebold
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/egovernment/comment/0,,1403546,00.html
Bush and enron
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2006/07/06/db0602.xml
If there is a more corrupt president anywhere it must be in some banana republic.
300 million people in the USA, what are the odds, in a D E M O C R A C Y of having both a father and a son elected as a president, especially when both father and son already defy the odds by being in effect a family dynasty in the senate for texas?
Longer odds than six stright lottery jackpot wins, that's for sure.
American citizens and the constitution and all that good stuff, no, I don't have a problem with any of that, but your government is more corrupt than vichy france in the forties, if you take that as a person insult on you as an individual voter, that's too bad, not the way it is intended, nor can I hold up _my_ government as any sort of shining example, but my government can't hold a candle to yours when it comes to dynastic internecine corruption.
USA abroad trying to drop leaflets on people telling them they need democracy has a real hard time of it, because these people know this stuff same as we do.... every language has a word for hypocricy.
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Guy,
I said to research the facts…step back and look at the links you point to…NYT…BBC etc. …please...these are opinions with a decided agenda...
Joe
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Guy,
I said to research the facts…step back and look at the links you point to…NYT…BBC etc. …please...these are opinions with a decided agenda...
Joe
Dude, I sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, they are facts, they are chock full of facts if you care to read them, they name names and places and specify what deals were done etcetera.
When everyone else, eg rest of the planet and not CBS or Fox news, says different than what you have been told is true, that isn't "just a different opinion"
The 2000 election was the first time in USA history since 1888 that the man with the least number of votes got into office.
As Gore Vidal said, "Democracy in the United States ended in Florida"
It is not "opinion" that bush got less votes than his rival, it is not "opinion" that his election was confirmed by five corrupt senior court judges, who'se two abstaining colleages openly spoken criticisms of the five were quite frankly astonishingly forthright, and yet basically totally unreported on in the US, it is not "opinion" that the Bush clan and Haliburton go back 50 years as far as business deals go, I could go on and on and on.
They are major articles in major newspapers, chock full of references and facts, you made ZERO attempt to provide any alternative explanations for those facts, just dismissed them as "having an agenda" and "opinion"
You say these are not facts, then by defintion you must know what you claim to be the true facts.
I have an open mind, if I have been misled by practically every non US media outlet on the planet then I want to know about it, so please tell me where I can find and discussion about these true facts of yours to counter this agenda and opinion of mine?
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from the pasadena weekly, of all places
National amnesia
Novelist and political essayist Gore Vidal on Bush as a corporate puppet, the failure of the media and our loss of a collective memory
By Dean Kuipers
Illustration by Scott Gandell
Gore Vidal has been watching American political life for a long time and is liking less and less of what he sees. Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans, Vidal’s early series of eight novels, including his debut, “Williwaw” (1946), and “The City and the Pillar” (1948), established him as a major young post-World War II novelist alongside Norman Mailer and Truman Capote. He ran for both the House and the Senate, but it was his National Book Award-winning 1993 tome, “United States: Essays, 1952-1992,” that established him as one of this country’s most authoritative political commentators on subjects from American dynasties, homosexuality, artists and intelligentsia.
More recently, he has savaged George W. Bush as a transparent corporate shill and an accomplice in a grand betrayal of the polity in a barrage of essays including his 2004 collection, “Imperial America: Reflections on the United States of Amnesia.”
PW: Do you think that it’s possible the Bush Administration went into Iraq really believing that it was spreading democracy to the Middle East?
Gore Vidal: Of course not. Why should they do anything like that? They go in out of greed. There’s been very little altruism in all of our history. We go into things for profit, and now that we’ve ceased to be any form of democracy, the people are not consulted about what their rulers want them to do. No war has been declared by that part of the legislative branch which is most democratic, that is most responsive to the people.
So, it was just about oil and war profiteering?
Yes. Meanwhile, we do not have a media that enlightens anybody about anything, and our public school system for the average person is pretty bad. We are quite uninformed about things. Therefore we are not in any position to make up our minds if they’re making good policy or a bad policy. First of all, no one will ask us what we think. And then if they say, “Oh, go to the polls,” we go to the polls and the election is stolen as in Florida 2000 and 2004 in Ohio.
Do you think that the media is failing in this capacity?
Get the tense right: It has failed.
Has this president made this worse, by being so antagonistic to the media?
Oh, who cares? He doesn’t run the country, a handful of corporations run it. No, this is not conspiracy theory, this is conspiracy analysis. The country is very tightly led with corporate goals which push out anything of a national nature. We’re out of it. It’s like being in a bubble. I’ve spent a great deal of my life living across the water, and someone said, “How can you follow American politics when you’ve had your house in Italy for all those years?” And I said, “Well, that’s the only way I can find out what’s going on in America, because the foreign press, at least in Western Europe, is quite good.”
Corporate influence in politics seems more raw and apparent now than ever before.
Of course it is. And it was all due to the “good luck” — those two words I have just used ironically — of 9/11. “I’m a wartime president! I’m a wartime president!” Well, he fucking well isn’t. He’s an accidental president. He happens to be put in by the oil and gas people to cut their taxes and then go in for preemptive wars against countries that are weak and that have done us no harm, like Afghanistan and Iraq. This was a godsend for those who would like to get rid of Congress and the courts and the Constitution. And they’re doing very well at it — very, very well. “Mission accomplished,” I believe, is what he said on the aircraft carrier.
Do you think that those effects are lasting, or can they be reversed?
Well, is the glass half full or half empty? I think the damage done to our system by the last 20 years — of which he’s just the most ludicrous example — is probably irreparable. We may not have time enough to restore the republic. We just lost it. I mean, when the attorney general of the United States goes before Congress and just says the president can pick and choose what he wants to do, and that his wartime powers are inherent – well, if that dumb-dumb Gonzales has ever read the Constitution, he knows that there are no inherent presidential rights, they are enumerated in the Constitution; they’re named. And there’s a great many things he cannot do. For one, he can’t go eavesdropping without getting a court order — that’s the law.
Has our foreign policy stance also been permanently damaged?
I would say nothing is ultimately irreparable, but the Constitution, as we have enjoyed it over the years and as it has sustained us, has been given some death blows. Now everyone is in the habit of seeing people shoot each other, police shoot children, children kill each other, I mean, this is a mess. And how do you start to repair it? That’s a real problem for a real political party. Unfortunately, we don’t have them at the moment.
Do you have a prescription for achieving that?
It’s a tall order, but we have to undertake it, like it or not. A presidential election costs some money, but there’re a lot of rich people on the left, or on the side of the Constitution, to hold a true election. Skip the states and just set up balloting machinery around the country. I’d go back to the old-fashioned written ballots, which leave a paper trail, and just go all-out to try and do an honest one. You might have very, very different names at the end of the day. This would cause hysteria and, God knows, bloodshed and whatever by those who don’t really want an honest election, but at least we might know what was out there.
[Former UN weapons inspector] Scott Ritter’s information seems like vitally important stuff. Is the country too polarized to listen?
They’re not used to hearing anything. The only art form that the United States ever developed is the TV commercial. That’s our Sistine Chapel. That’s our masterpiece. That’s a very rare art form, but it’s not very informative. Now you’ve got to get away from advertising. Just through sheer repetition, which is the secret of advertising, these two fools in office have convinced the American people, these 60, 70 percent, that [Saddam Hussein] was responsible for 9/11. He didn’t have anything to do with 9/11. No, I don’t think he was a nice man and I don’t care – he’s an Iraqi and I’m an American. We Americans should not worry about Iraqi leaders.
Now Iraq is teetering on the brink of civil war. Is it a good idea to pull the troops out?
I would pull them out before they’re killed, yes. We have nothing to gain by being there. We have no plans to develop the country, repair the country, or even to give them their oil back. We’re gonna plunder and go, so plunder and get out before our people get killed.
That’s a pretty grim picture. Do you still enjoy bringing this news to the people?
I don’t think enjoy is the correct verb, but I feel one has to do it. You know I was brought up in the ’30s; I remember Hitler, I remember American fascism, which was fairly lively. If you don’t speak out, things just die and shut down. We’re going to have no national memory of anything, and if you are not informed about your past, you have no present. And God help you in the future.
Lurking in there somewhere is a message of hope.
I think there is. There’s a moment when things get so bad that people do act. But one certainly doesn’t want to wait for a revolution. I’m all for evolution, and we’re ready for some.
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Guy:
my friend you are definetely an aquired taste, just not one that has any consistancy.
while you and i might agree on all things mechanical, theoretical, and diabolical , we certainly are on opposing sides here.
i believe very little that is published in newspapers, without alot of supporting evidence, even then i wonder.
i dont believe much of what my government puts out, my press, or for that matter most educators as well. that also goes for all other governments, press and educators.
years ago, i purchased an old shortwave radio, i repaired it and tuned in radio moscow, remember Joe Anamov (sp), i listened to his take on the us and world events.
funny thing was, his reasoning, delivery and supporting facts were presented in just as believable manner as those from my evening news guy (albeit diametrically opposed)
i woke up to the realization, that everyone has an axe to grind, a reason to skew the facts, report some, hide others etc. basically it is "follow the money"
is GW the best president of all time, probably not, was he the right guy at the right time, yes.
as for the florida vote, if the dem's would have sit down with the republicans and come to an agreement over ground rules on the recount, perhaps the outcome would have been different. But they did not, they instead tried first one thing then another, sort of like playing cards with a child and having constantly changing rules when the child is losing.
even if i was to concede that al gore should have been pres, and he was robbed (which i am not), i don't hear you mentioning the election of 1960, where nixon lost to kennedy, with a few hundred thousand votes found floating in the river in chicago. in that case nixon was told about them, and decided not to contest the election because of damaging the trust of the people in the system.
oh btw, when you guys going to grow up over there and quit the fairy tale with the queen thing anyway? hehe
hey you lob a dirt clod, i can lob one back at ya, only fair :)
bob g
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Procrustes,
You really need to get your facts straight before you spout off like that…it makes you sound like some idiot goofball..which I'm sure you are not. Start with a few details… check the facts then get back with us on what you find.
Joe
The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said. Put up or shut up.
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"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)
geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?
pasadena paper? for godsakes man!
for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.
you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.
i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.
have you spent anytime in the midwest, the deep south, the plains?
we gotta get you outta england and into the heart of this country for a while. :)
bob g
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Ah, what the heck.
My thoughts. (I only choose my conclusions after the facts...so I can always be right! Thats what is important isn't it, being right all the time, being the winner?)
M3 is no longer reported. The word trillion is being tossed about quite easily. What that means to me is that my paltry earnings are going to be worth- less. Think hyperinflation. Think my children, your children.
Didn't we have a 7 day work week before unions came on the scene.....wonder why that changed?
Is it really wrong for a wealthy nation to provide basic medical care for all? How is that a bad thing? We certainly have the money to wage war....so can't some of that money be used to take care of the nations people? Maybe even feed them? Oh, right. No compassion to free loaders. Even if it hurts honest folk too.
Why do lobbyists exist? What do you mean our government is for sale?
Everyone has a duty to speak up. Everyone has the right to be heard. What do you mean this is a no protest zone?
'people have the right to remain secure' right up to the point of warrantless eavesdropping and so on. Don't worry if you have nothing to hide....however....now that drinking alcohol has been made a retro active felony....spread em!
NAIS....mandatory chip placement on ALL animals. by 2009. chickens, pigs, horses, dogs, cats. They want to monitor all the animals....but leave a wide open border??? Track all animals, but illegal aliens have a free pass cause they do the jobs Americans won't do?
Homeland security. Open borders. Anyone see a disconnect?
As stated by Merle Haggard in a recent song....AMERICA FIRST
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"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)
geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?
pasadena paper? for godsakes man!
for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.
you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.
i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.
have you spent anytime in the midwest, the deep south, the plains?
we gotta get you outta england and into the heart of this country for a while. :)
bob g
No we don't. Too f-in many of that sort around here already.
There's an old Texas saying, which applies all over here in flyover country.
"We don't give a shit how y'all done things up north"
And that applies, doubled, for any country that has royalty and no Bill of Rights.
rg
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Bob,
Once again-Thank you for your lucid and straightforward comments.
Would really like to jump in with "both feet", but will restrain myself. WILL make a couple of comments.
There are three "flavors" of truth. And am restricting this to truth in the first person.
One is, the truth.
Two is, the truth as we KNOW it.
The third is the truth as we believe it to be.
The three can and frquently are a long ways from one another, and yet we all frequently defend one as being the other.
Please allow me to offer one simple example.
1)45% of all 1994-2002 ***** pickups with ******* diesel engines experienced a gross injector pump failure within 60,000 miles.
2)Jim Bob and Donnie Johnson's pickups both went over 180,000 miles without ANY pump troubles.
3)I believe that ***** diesel pickup injector pumps are REALLY dependable.
And the point is this; even mechanical devices have those people who say, "this is good, and that is bad". Happens all the time everywhere, not just on this forum. And without PERSONAL experience, AND that of those around you, it can be difficult to sort the truth from the rubbish.
Newspapers, TV news, etc, have REAL problems with factual reporting. Increasingly, they desire readers/viewers, and forego much of the truth in order to build an audience. It is very obvious to me that some of our British relatives have great difficulty in understanding that a large amount of the crap they ingest from the media is not THE TRUTH.
Try this on; we can all report on what we want to on this forum BECAUSE we are basically free. (Yes, T-19 applies his "justice" in a very erratic and un-even handed manner!). Do any of you think this can be or is done in Cuba or North Korea? (and elesewhere!)
So for me, I'll take my 60-some years of experience, and ALWAYS lean toward more freedom, less government, less taxes, less socialism, etc, etc, etc.
One question for Bob, didn't Ford use an IH engine in many of their early pickups (6.9 or 7.3?) that was very reliable?
Fuddy Duddy
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"Born to deep political connections including the Gore and Kennedy clans," (gore vidal)
geesh, i wonder why he is opposed to Bush?
pasadena paper? for godsakes man!
for someone that is clearly very intelligent, highly educated, eloquent in delivery, lucid and respected by at least myself, you clearly are ill informed and don't understand
the american culture/s.
you have to understand that there is a huge middle in this country, that doesnt speak up and say much, you know, the flyover country. those that live in flyover country are not ignorant by any means.
i really think your perceptions of america are skewed to the coasts, hollywood, newyork , florida, etc. and all the liberal speak that comes out of those places.
no, that's the weird thing about it, I've met *loads* of yanks (OK by definition because I have never been to the USA they are all that subset of US citizens who travel abroad) and talk to loads online.
of that loads I've met very very few bigoted, small minded, stupid, dumb or anything else, perhaps the sample I have met have been loaded in favour of being ex servicemen, but apart from that, from all over the us, all colours and religions
I'll have to quote one of them now when this very subject was last discussed, "not in my name"
Trust me, the rest of the world does not equate "USA" with the average american citizen.
Nobody thinks the average american citizen lives in a 12 bedroom house, has kids who drive mint mustangs from the age of 16, owns 47 different automatic weapons and the odd anti tank or aircraft weapon, or is a retard out of a stephen king novel.
Everybody thinks, and this is a view often agreed with by ex-pat americans, that the sheer size of the states and the history of the federation means most of you ain't got a clue about the rest of the world (imagine travelling from north dakota to south dakota to find and entirely different language, currency, cuisine, history, and a 1000 year tradition of fighting wars with each other)
but, and this is 100% serious and factual
go to most of europe and ask what is the most notable thing about americans, and the answer you will get most is this.
"they have bigger canadian flags on their luggage / backpacks than the canadians do"
You can probably quite accurately lay 95% of the blame for any anti-american prejudice that *does* exist right at the door of hollywood
The new / current hollywood movie about marie antionette is literally upsetting more people in france (the country that gave you the statue of liberty) than all the comments about cheese eating surrender monkeys and hairy women who don't wash could ever have done.
Europe has a reverance for history, and sneers at attampts by the state to intervene in the affairs of man.
We have a thousand years of history, even if some regime holds sway for 50 years, we put it into perspective, what we don't like is outsiders re-writing it for us.
Here's an example, back in the day I rode an old HD FXE all the way to moscow, this was at a time when people will tell you all you had in moscow was queues of people lining up for loaves made of sawdust because of the latest crop failure, with every third person in the queue being anally probed by the kgb. I didn't see any of that. Nor did I see anyone homeless, or in a home they couldn't afford to heat, I couldn't have sold a pair of blue jeans or an elvis tape for more than the price of a beer, not because it was illegal, but because everyone who wanted such things already had them.
Yeah, there were shortages, if you wanted a coke or a big mac you were shit out of luck, but nobody went hungry, everyone I met eat really well, drank really well too. Biggest thing I learned about the russians was a flair for the tragic, their version of country and western music I guess...
Come here and sit in a bar and hear people talking about our german queen with her greek prince consort, shit, the queens jubilee year the sex pistols were number one in the charts with anarchy in the UK, closely followed by such classics as the queens got VD and so on.
Go from bar to bar and try to find someone who has any respect for prime minister blair, or indeed just about anyone in parliament, shit, we put our members of parliament in prison on a regular basis, that is apart from the odd juicy one like the homosexual MP and his lover and the hit man who missed and shot his dog instead.
I think we do understand americans and america, hell, we've done it, all you need to do is read the history books, I'd say the common attitude here is that americans and america don't understand us, you're too young, 200 odd years ain't enough.
I can trace my heritage back, every single generation and the names of each one, back a thousand years, lot of history in there too, the relative on the lusitania, the relative who stood by napoleon bonaparte, the relative dragged up in front of the church in 1700;s holland to explain how he had gotten a girl pregnant out of wedlock, my grandad who went to america to make his fortune and worked for the young henry ford, my dad who went to canada and then the far east.
we know about flyover culture and the silent masses, when a european speaks about bush, or enron, or haliburton, he isn't talking about the silent masses, not because he doesn't know they exist, but because he does, and his own country had them too, hell, 1930's germany had them, vichy france had them, we have them here now, over one million, that's 2% of the population, so the USA equivalent would be 6 million people descending on DC, and protesting against the war, and every one of them knew there were no WMD (which was the sole excuse at the time) and it didn't change a bloody thing.
I challenge you to find a single thing, good or bad, that USA or anyone else come to that has done that we haven't done to a greater extreme, even concentration camps were a british invention, as was medical experimentation on inmates (feeding alum to the africans) and black hole of calcutta anyone? firebombing dresden? heard of cromwell? slave trade? exploiting foreign lands for resources?
Hell, as I type everyone is pissed off because england and germany can't replay WW2 in the world cup, 1966 was the last time of note...
So Gore Vidal is biased because he knew the Gores and Kennedy's, and?
No, the fundamental difference is that here in europe institutions and people just don't get the respect they do in the states, classic example is the ID card system.
In the states you'd get a few liberals screaming about it and being ignored, a few claiming it will curb illegal migrant workers, and most people just wondering if it means they don't need their zip code and social security number to buy something.
Here in the UK it gets a lot of the "german queen and her greek prince" talk, the kind of talk americans seem to take personally and take offence too, no, it ain't a "Homeland security freedom card", it's a piece of shit that won't work, it won't work because government is doing it, and nothing government ever does in times like these works.... the only time governments do anything that works is in times where shit has to be done and no-one cares about niceties, like the post war depression when we got a national health service.
My girlfriend is pregnant, so far I've taken her to the hospital twice (one all that untrasound shit where they measure the fetus to give a birth date and look for things like downs syndrome etc) and doctor three times and midwife twice, she's sixteen weeks gone so far, no charge, never more than a 30 minute wait, no question of second grade medical staff, equipment or treatment.
We can go anywhere in europe tomorrow and that won't change.
Next week I have to go to the dentist, too many years of travelling and rough conditions have taken their toll, I can't be assed any more so I made the choice to have em all out and have dentures, no charge.
If you're 18 and can't get a job the absolute minimum dole payment is 54 pounds, about 100 bucks, a week, not means tested, not limited to a few weeks, not meant to cover housing, so nobody has an excuse to rob someone else to eat
If you live here you'd think tony blair and london is all that exists, except you wouldn't, and we here in europe don't think bush and DC speak for america any more than blair and london speak for us.
SNAFU, an american saying, didn't mean they weren't believers in their country or were press ganged into service....
Bush isn't the USA, but americans don't seem to like that being said.
Blair isn't the UK, and you have to search long and hard for an englishman that will disagree, apart from Blair himself of course...
two peoples separated by a pond and a common language, but a different culture.
Let's bring it back on topic.
Listers. What;s unique about them, how do you know it was an english engine and not say a german one?
It's upright.
___THAT___ is culture.
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yessir the 6.9, the 7.3 along with the power stroke, the 6.0 liter powerstroke, and now even a V6 version are IH/navistar designed and manufactured for
ford.
the 6.9 was a good engine in p/u's, had a few issues with location of firering on their head gskts early on that was exacerbated by heavy hauling, they updated the gskts
and that seemed to work. most of the failures on these engines were maintenance related in the early years
the 7.3 was a larger brother of the 6.9, the fords called them 7.3 in there pickups and the international used them as well, good engines, and history
the powerstroke is basically a 7.3 with the HUI injection system on it, this system was a co-project between CAT and Navistar, so the same basic injection system
is used on the powerstroke and engine from cat such as the 3126, and the new C7. Navistar called there 7.3/powerstroke the 444e model, 444 ci/electronic
these engines do very well if maintained well, they need clean oil and fuel for the high pressure pumps to servive.
The 6.0 liter powerstroke is quite an engine, has a variable pitch turbo, EGR, high velocity exhaust ports, instant starting, throttle responce of a chainsaw.
pretty impressive engines with the same torque and hp of the 7.3 liter. i dont know how they are doing in service.
i see navistar reintroduced an american made small cab over truck, and it is using a v6 version of the 6.0 liter, making about 225 hp
dont know how they are doing yet either .
as for less government, less beauracracy, less permitting, etc etc.
i stand shoulder to shoulder on that one Fuddyduddy
your three levels of truth is spot on,
and the disparity between each of them is nothing short of amazing at times.
kind of like:
"my mind is made up, dont confuse me with the facts" or
"i dont accept you reality, i like my own"
i guess it takes us all to make the world go round, :) which leads me to the old saying
"
"stop the world i want off"
hahaha
bob g
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yessir the 6.9, the 7.3 along with the power stroke, the 6.0 liter powerstroke, and now even a V6 version are IH/navistar designed and manufactured for
ford.
the 6.9 was a good engine in p/u's, had a few issues with location of firering on their head gskts early on that was exacerbated by heavy hauling, they updated the gskts
and that seemed to work. most of the failures on these engines were maintenance related in the early years
the 7.3 was a larger brother of the 6.9, the fords called them 7.3 in there pickups and the international used them as well, good engines, and history
the powerstroke is basically a 7.3 with the HUI injection system on it, this system was a co-project between CAT and Navistar, so the same basic injection system
is used on the powerstroke and engine from cat such as the 3126, and the new C7. Navistar called there 7.3/powerstroke the 444e model, 444 ci/electronic
these engines do very well if maintained well, they need clean oil and fuel for the high pressure pumps to servive.
The 6.0 liter powerstroke is quite an engine, has a variable pitch turbo, EGR, high velocity exhaust ports, instant starting, throttle responce of a chainsaw.
pretty impressive engines with the same torque and hp of the 7.3 liter. i dont know how they are doing in service.
i see navistar reintroduced an american made small cab over truck, and it is using a v6 version of the 6.0 liter, making about 225 hp
dont know how they are doing yet either .
as for less government, less beauracracy, less permitting, etc etc.
i stand shoulder to shoulder on that one Fuddyduddy
your three levels of truth is spot on,
and the disparity between each of them is nothing short of amazing at times.
kind of like:
"my mind is made up, dont confuse me with the facts" or
"i dont accept you reality, i like my own"
i guess it takes us all to make the world go round, :) which leads me to the old saying
"
"stop the world i want off"
hahaha
bob g
Hello Hotater, at last the truth about your Ford pickup; it is really an IH. Or is that just my belief?
Seems like some of our British relatives have IQs around 70; at least based on some of the crap they post. Too much inbreeding on that small island?
Spent 17 years as a pilot for Uncle Sugar, and must say, the truth as I know it is; our President could not have flown planes for the military with an IQ of what some fools guess he has. Not sure THAT poster even realizes that truth has flavors...and that even AFTER he was told. Eh Procrustes, does that shoe fit you?
Fuddy Duddy
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OK, here is what you don't understand about europe.
Anyone remember battlestar galactica?
What were the baddies called? Cylons.
Here, this is greeted with hilarity.
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The Sunday Times July 09, 2006
You’re nicked, live on helmet cam
Will Iredale
POLICE officers across Britain could be issued with miniature cameras attached to their helmets to help gather evidence of crimes without the need for written statements or lengthy court appearances.
The devices enable officers to confront offenders with their crimes by replaying footage to them on the spot. In pilot schemes, offenders have proved far more likely to plead guilty or accept on-the-spot fines or cautions than contest their cases in court.
The Home Office plans a national trial of the cameras using hundreds of officers to assess whether they can increase conviction rates, and they could become standard kit for every police force. They may also help cut crime by, for example, deterring thugs from fighting when there is an officer nearby.
At least 12 offenders have been punished using evidence recorded by the camera — known as the Cylon body-worn surveillance system — since it became available for individual forces to test last December.
The crimes recorded range from breaking into a car to assaulting a police officer and fighting outside a nightclub. After playing back the footage, police say all the offenders accepted their guilt rather than tying up magistrates’ time with a “not guilty” plea.
“We have been getting really good quality primary evidence from the outset and we have had a number of incidents where the offenders have seen the footage and have said ‘Okay, hands up, I cannot deny that’,” said Sergeant Olly Taylor, a beat officer in Plymouth.
After a small-scale trial using 10 cameras, Taylor said he had been asked by the Home Office to conduct a six-month trial starting this September with 200 officers trained to use 50 cameras during day and night patrols in Plymouth city centre.
“We think it can make a real difference in the way we gather evidence in crimes such as alcohol-related violence and yobbery in public places,” he said.
If the scheme is successful, the Home Office will produce national guidelines for all forces with the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Crown Prosecution Service.
Martin Goodall, a chief inspector from Hampshire police, heading the programme for the policing standards unit at the Home Office, said his group would use the trials in Plymouth and in forces including West Midlands, Avon and Somerset and Northumbria to evaluate the camera’s effectiveness.
Each device weighs about 25oz and can produce high-quality digital video or stills and record sound. The camera can be attached to existing police helmets and is worn level with the eyes. It is able to film in whichever direction the officer’s head is turned. A wire links the camera, which is the size of a marker pen, to a 4in screen worn on the belt on which footage can be played.
The device can record 400 hours of footage but must be recharged every 12 hours. The film can be downloaded on to a computer or on to a DVD for use in court.
Each camera costs £1,700 and is made by a Plymouth company called Audax. Steve Rogers, chief executive of Audax, said it had sold about 500 cameras to the 43 police forces in England and Wales.
In March Fiona Linehan, 22, from Plymouth, became the first person in the country to be convicted using evidence recorded by a head camera after assaulting a police officer who was wearing one.
In Benwell, Newcastle upon Tyne, an officer used evidence recorded on his head camera to charge a man after spotting him trying to break into a car in May. “The camera caught him and it was easier to admit guilt than dispute it because it is all on film,” said Sergeant Paul Hamilton, a community sergeant with Northumbria police.
He added: “It is a very good tool. If you are accusing someone of a crime they will plead guilty, which reduces the officer’s time completing files for the court and having to attend court to give evidence.”
Other forces in the trial include West Yorkshire and the Metropolitan police, where four head cameras are being tested by mounted officers in Hammersmith, west London.
The Home Office confirmed it was helping to fund the trial but said the cameras would have to be “independently evaluated” before any nationwide scheme took place.
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The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said. Put up or shut up.
I would love to get into this but…I leave very shortly and will not be back until the end of the month…believe me this is not an out…as Arnold always said… “I’ll be back”.
As senior instructor this duty assessment will be to critique a soon to be Deployed Commander and his/her staff in a high stress field evaluation. This is the last look we get at them before they go to the tip of the spear…if they don’t cut it…they don’t go… As far as senior leadership evaluation…I do have my credentials…I’ll share what I can…when I can…
In my younger days I was a Commander in an Air National Guard Fighter Unit for twelve years…we can start with Bush is a" poor serviceman" if you like... again…you do realize this is not a level playing field we are on…
Also, this should get moved to another forum, as it is OT here.
Joe
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I wrote this in 2003, not particularly useful today, but history doesn't go out of date. Any abbreviated history has huge gaps that are meaningful, but I don't even play a historian on tv. I wish I had an answer for any of this, but do not. We have a sizable mess, and no easy way to undo it. I hate it when I predict disaster and it comes true.
To throw a sop to the "General Discussion" of Lister(oids), mine is still on the back of my pickup, waiting for tractor repair. Soon I hope, I'll have some photos to post of the unloading and placement of it.
Ray
The rule of law is taken for granted by Americans. We assume that other cultures have, like us, respect for most of the laws most of the time. Unfortunately, this is not generally true, especially in war torn areas. Afghanistan is a prime example. There is currently no method for collecting taxes to fund the police in most of Afghanistan, so they are not paid, have no uniforms and don’t even have a copy of the laws they are supposed to uphold. Typically the police are former soldiers, and, while many of them may wish to enforce civil laws, they have no support. Of necessity they often must rely on bribes or extortion to survive. The “Nation Building” efforts of various nations do not yet extend beyond the capitol, Kabul.
Which brings us to our incipient problem in Iraq. Someone observed that the last time Iraqis respected the rule of law was during the reign of Hammurabi. Hammurabi ruled Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) for 43 years in about 1800 BC, (almost 4,000 years ago). His code, found in 1901 engraved on a stone stele now kept in the Louvre in Paris, consisted of 282 laws directing the consequences for a variety of civil abuses. Legal concepts such as the central government enforcing the law, social justice, punishment fitting the crime and others make this ancient code the basis for much current law.
Present day Iraq reflects the turbulent history of the area since the time of Hammurabi. Iraq was conquered by Alexander the Great in 300 BC, by the Muslims in 600 AD, by the Mongols in 1250 AD, again by the Mongol Tamerlane in 1400, and repeatedly caught between the warring Safavids of Iran and the Ottomans of Turkey between 1500 and 1600. Iraq was controlled by the Ottomans of Turkey from 1600 to early 1900, but weak control enabled a variety of tribal sheiks to rule local areas. By early 1900 Iraq was divided into many tribal autonomous areas, weakly controlled by Turkey, until the end of World War I. Turkey was allied with Germany in WWI. After their defeat, Iraq was turned over to Britain in 1920. Britain was interested in Iraqi oil fields and in building a railroad from Europe to the Persian Gulf. Rebellion by Iraqi nationalists in 1920 resulted in the English drawing the borders of modern Iraq in 1932 and imposing a king as ruler. Oil field development was by the Iraqi Petroleum Company, a British dominated multinational company. Independence was granted in 1932, but as late as 1941 the British invaded to defeat a rebellion threatening British interests. Between WWII and 1990 there were 2 wars with Israel, one with Iran, threats and invasions of Kuwait, assassinations, coup d’etat’s, revolts, invasions by the British, etc. Saddam Hussain assumed the presidency in 1979 and has waged war with Iran and Kuwait, and brutally repressed the Kurds to the north and the Marsh Arabs to the south. Politics in Iraq is a blood sport, and tribal affiliations often over-ride national loyalties.
Into this chaotic maelstrom, Mr. Bush proposes to ride in, guns blazing, to depose Saddam, and develop a democratic government. The Iraqi culture has been ruled by repressive despots, (often foreign) for the last few thousand years, and we are going to build a democracy? We haven’t even figured out how to fix Afghanistan, what do we think we are doing in Iraq? Our leaders are going to bankrupt our country, ruin our reputation, destabilize the Middle East and create thousands of terrorists who hate us. It makes me wonder if there is something to be said for electing our president through popular vote.
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I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years. Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. :P
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Democracy is the worst form of government....except all the other ones. (Winston Churchill?)
What I don't hear here is any notion of what happens if nothing was done after 9/11.
Where is the world headed, and what to do about it. Would your wife look good in a Burka? Unchecked, Osama B would be making public appearances and leading a standing army. He'd probaby have aquired atomic bombs from Russia. Radical Islam is on it's Third Crusade. Yes, the Christian Crusades were a reaction to Islamic incursions into Europe. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and is at war perpetually with all it's neighbors.
GWB and Co have a plan. That's at least a start, and a recognition that a problem exists. The opposition had no plan and still does not. They sound alot like Chaimberlain just before the start of WWII. That does not leave many choices. The last two candidates fielded by the big D were losers. Mainstream media support is said to be worth 15% in a presidential election, and they all threw in with the big D like they always do.
Kerry fell 3 million votes short. Even with all that media support. Kerry's record as a senator is devoid of any accomplishment. Kerry was created by the media against the war and his 'Veterans against the war'. I don't see any leadership quality there, and no firm convictions to save a nation.
Gore won the popular, but lost the electoral. Now he behaves in public like a certifiable lunatic. He has no plan, just a warped form of Big Tent Religion based on Junk Science, while he traverses the world spewing hydrocarbons from an old Boeing 707, telling you to do without. He did even poorer in School, in the sevice, and after than GWB. I don't see anything good comming from a Gore presidency.
War costs and war dead are the lowest in recorded history. If anyone can pull this off, it's us, and the world community that stands with. We have to keep at it to ever get a good result. Bugging out of Viet Nam resulted in a pogrom that killed at least 3 million people. Leaving like that was irresponsible, and the 'leaders' in media and politics that advocated it are criminals in my book.
Mainstream Media has lost it's omnipotent influence because of the informantion revolution. Hopefully it will never get it back, because journalists in that trade are trying to 'make a difference and change the world'. That is not their job, 'They' are supposed to report the facts.
Facts are sometimes boring, good news is not good copy. News is just another special interest group trying to make a buck. They don't currently deserve to be the 'Fourth Branch of Government' that they like to tell you they are.
Dan Rather and Mary Mapes are still in denial that they broke every journalistic ethic to tilt the election. This is the daily media that Americans filter thru and see thru it.
I'm noticing the current Isreali-Palistinian conflict. The death count is very low. 40 Palistinians and one Jew. By every account the Palistinians invited the Jews in. 900+ rocket attacks and 3 kidnappings in response to a peace jesture of returning Gaza. Just try to imagine that in reverse, a Palistinian horde loosed into Isreali territory. I think it would be a bloodbath.
What's with the double standard here. Beat ourselves up with self loathing and put lots of restrictions on ourselves, while our corrupt stone hurling advarsaries can do no wrong. Why must we try to understand that it is OK for them to slowly saw your head of while you squirm around, but you can't write a word of dissent about them? They want a one way deal, all for them, and they want you to bring it to them. If they have to come get it, then they will kill you now instead of later.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy Murtha's 'Redeployment' Bug out scheme. World War Three has started. It is a war of religious idealogy, and economics. The reason that it started may not matter by the time it's over. WWI was started by an Islamic assasin, and ignited a world that had been arming up for decades.
Form your own conclusion, but keep history in mind. Appeasement has never worked and you cannot reason with madmen. We are under attack, if you want to continue to live like you have, some one is going to have to fight for it. Many young men are able and willing, they are not as jaded as many of us. They still believe in family and country. They are greater than "Our Greatest Generation" all we have to do is support them. What they blog, from their forward locations is totally different from the mainstream media, and has the ring of believability. I think we are winning, while factions at home try to steal defeat from the jaws of victory, just so they can get their patronage job back.
Oh, and sorry to hear about the boots.
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I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years. Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. :P
actually, this debt was paid off finally earlier this year.
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GWB and Co have a plan. That's at least a start, and a recognition that a problem exists. The opposition had no plan and still does not.
GWB and Co's plan was to chase Bin Laden on the cheap while hustling into Iraq. Obviously we missed Bin Laden, which was a spectacular blunder. Iraq was the only secular nation in the area at the time we invaded. How can you justify invading a secular nation in a war on Islamic jihad? To Saddam Islam was a threat. He was no religious zealot, just a power-hungry dictator. Now it appears likely that Iraq will end up with some sort of Shiite government. You call that a plan? What plan did Bush have for winning the peace? He thought he was done in 2003, Mission Accomplished. He recently said that he expects to have significant troops through 2008, which means his plan is, do nothing and let the next guy clean up.
What on earth do you mean that the opposition doesn't realize that a problem exists? Everybody does except fringe lunatics.
Mainstream media support is said to be worth 15% in a presidential election, and they all threw in with the big D like they always do.
The repubs control the congress and executive, conglomerates own more and more of the 'MSM', and you guys can't quit whinging about how you are disadvantaged.
Here's a quick torpedo on your paranoid fantasies about the MSM. I must have heard two hundred outraged remarks in the MSM about Clinton 'not inhaling'. Bush won't deny cocaine use, and how much did the MSM push him on that? Bush apparently has a DUI arrest in 1976. How much would we have heard about that if Clinton did it? With Bush we don't even know for sure. Clinton was involved in Whitewater, which Starr spent something like 30 million investigating without levelling charges, and again it was all over the air waves. Bush sold insider Harkin stock right before catastrophic news, submitted the requisite SEC forms late and undated, and we heard hardly anything about that (he claims he was 'vetted', but the SEC under his dad declined to investigate). The MSM happily reported that Kerry's involvement in Vietnam was 'dishonorable', when he volunteered to drive around in a PT boat while getting fired at. Judith Miller works for the NY Times, and plugged the Iraq war as hard as anybody. Bush wipes away the sins of his youth by saying he was reborn, but he doesn't go to church. How much would we have heard about it Kerry or Gore or Clinton didn't go to church?
Kerry's record as a senator is devoid of any accomplishment.
Not true. Among other things he doggedly pursued the Arab money laundering BCCI scheme.
Gore won the popular, but lost the electoral. Now he behaves in public like a certifiable lunatic. He has no plan, just a warped form of Big Tent Religion based on Junk Science, while he traverses the world spewing hydrocarbons from an old Boeing 707, telling you to do without. He did even poorer in School, in the sevice, and after than GWB. I don't see anything good comming from a Gore presidency.
There is an broad consensus among the scientific community that global warming is real. There are a couple of high profile dissenters, one who was commissioned by Exxon and another who is a geologist from an Autralian college. Anyway, isn't it imprudent to assume that human activity is not to blame? Again this is paranoia, you think there is a group of people who dislike capitalism or whatever, so they use environmental degradation as a ruse.
War costs and war dead are the lowest in recorded history. If anyone can pull this off, it's us, and the world community that stands with. We have to keep at it to ever get a good result. Bugging out of Viet Nam resulted in a pogrom that killed at least 3 million people. Leaving like that was irresponsible, and the 'leaders' in media and politics that advocated it are criminals in my book.
Your remark about war costs is all wet. See http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm. Anyway, like I said Bush thought he was done in 2003, and now doesn't see a win anytime on the horizon. Sure cutting a running sucks, but it's far from clear what victory means at this point.
Yeah it's unfortunate how the domino theory was exonerated, and one country after another fell under communist dominion after we pulled out of 'Nam.
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The onus is on you to tell me what was incorrect in what I said. Put up or shut up.
I would love to get into this but…I leave very shortly and will not be back until the end of the month…believe me this is not an out…
Well, that's sort of what it seems to be. You said my post sounded idiotic and goofballish, yet you have time to make a reply and edit it but no time to provide a mite of evidence.
we can start with Bush is a" poor serviceman" if you like...
I'll set the stage. During wartime the people of the US spend one million dollars training a Guardsman fighter pilot. Initially he gets glowing reviews. Something changes though and this pilot skips a physical, which is significant for fighter pilots, and never flies again. He transfer to a mail facility in Alabama, where no one acknowledges seeing him, and if memory serves leaves that early to start HBS.
you do realize this is not a level playing field we are on
I do not.
Also, this should get moved to another forum, as it is OT here.
Don't get cold feet.
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The repubs control the congress and executive, conglomerates own more and more of the 'MSM', and you guys can't quit whinging about how you are disadvantaged.
I forgot my particular favorite. Imagine the field day the MSM would have had if Gore or Kerry had been a cheerleader. Probably lots of people don't even know that Bush was at Yale.
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"The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world" - Winston Churchill on Islam, 1899
The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling. Testimony at Saddam's trial and translation of Iraqi state documents expose the involvement in Iraqi terror. Just like "Oil for Food" violated the cease fire treaty, and involved greedy politicians from the 'world community', the recent release of documents shows a trail of WMD purchases that lead to.....our trusted trading partners in Europe and Russia. These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed. The most UNREAL part of this, is that GWB is not running again. Go Figure: GWB must have transitioned from a 'person' to an 'idea' or there would be no reason to keep up this hateful personal attack against a supposed lame duck.
As a rallying cry to unite liberals against the war, it's probably a loser. There has been enough raw data about the inexorable and naked agression of Islam as a world dominating force that calling for a 'redeployment' and refusing to aknowledge this new Stateless Power is not a plan or policy that can win back control of the country.
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"The influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world" - Winston Churchill on Islam, 1899
The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling. Testimony at Saddam's trial and translation of Iraqi state documents expose the involvement in Iraqi terror. Just like "Oil for Food" violated the cease fire treaty, and involved greedy politicians from the 'world community', the recent release of documents shows a trail of WMD purchases that lead to.....our trusted trading partners in Europe and Russia. These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed. The most UNREAL part of this, is that GWB is not running again. Go Figure: GWB must have transitioned from a 'person' to an 'idea' or there would be no reason to keep up this hateful personal attack against a supposed lame duck.
As a rallying cry to unite liberals against the war, it's probably a loser. There has been enough raw data about the inexorable and naked agression of Islam as a world dominating force that calling for a 'redeployment' and refusing to aknowledge this new Stateless Power is not a plan or policy that can win back control of the country.
Bingo, and nicely put. It is MUCH easier (if intellectually lazy and dishonest) to demonize the current admininstration than to acknowledge the real battle, and to come to grips with the facts -- that Islam is a force for evil in the world, and that those who are determined to proseletyze it with violence must be fought wherever they are.
It's a hard jump to make from the liberal "we are all brothers" mantra - unless the first step is to decide that Republicans are so evil they must not be our brothers. That is where the media whores have decided to focus.
The REAL enemy uses that in his favor. So long as the US government is busy defending itself from those internal skirmishes, it can't focus on battling the global threat that waits to consume all of us.
Russell
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Amen, Russell
this is not a problem that is going to go away, quite the contrary it will be with us all for many years to come.
it is one thing to fight for land, fight to protect one freedom, or to fight to help free another people, but..
it is quite another to fight a religious war.
we as americans have to understand that, as a religious war/crusade/gihad/whatever this war will be fought until
the last dog is dead period.
the problem is there are many dogs, now and being born and raised to follow these belief's
the rep's and dem's can haggle forever over what is the right way to do it, but basically it all is politics and power between them
they both behind closed doors realize that to effectively finish this war off, one will have to pick up a very big hammer and crush it everywhere
it comes up on the planet.
as for GWB sure i will admit he aint perfect, and to the dem's i say to friggin bad!
Clinton was not perfect and i had to suffer with his ugly mug for 8 years, i lived, and so will you.
get over it, and move on.
i figure that the Dem's will probably get the whitehouse this go around, if so, i am going to drop out.
yes i will hate it, be miserable, but i too will have to live with it.
i will do my level best not to clutter this board up with complaints about that administration.
bob g
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The old saw of the left, that no WMD exists nor any relationship between Taliban and Iraq is now unravelling.
We found 500 shells that David Kay said, "expired sarin missles, less dangerous than products most people have under their kitchen sink". He also said, about Iraq WMD, "We were all wrong". What do you mean an old saw of the left. As I said before, Saddam was looking out for number one, not Allah, so he and the Islamac zealots distrusted one another.
Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters.
These won't make the mainstream media because any reality that gets in the way of removing Bush is not to be printed.
Again, most of the MSM is owned by the biggerst corporations in the world. Please explain why these huge corporations have an agenda against Republicans and conservatives. Explain the discrepancies in treatment that different candidates received from the MSM, as I described above.
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"Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters."
have you considered that there would be more losses of life in the age group if they had stayed at home, via car accidents, mugging, shootings, hang gliding etc.
there is evidence that as a group the guys and gals are safer in iraq than here in the states.
hard to accept i know, much harder to accept a son lost in war than from a car crash. either way he is dead.
don't see much protest marches to raise the drinking and driving age to 30 here, to protect these young folks
the thing is, what would you have done differently? let them bomb the towers and turn the other cheek?
how many other towers would have to fall with how many more men, women and children killed before you would do the same?
easy to be a monday morning quarterback!
bob g
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"Anyway, bear in mind that you are justifying 400 billion dollars and the lives of 2,500 of our sons and daughters."
have you considered that there would be more losses of life in the age group if they had stayed at home, via car accidents, mugging, shootings, hang gliding etc.
I'll give you points for creativity, but there's no blood on our hands for accidental deaths.
the thing is, what would you have done differently? let them bomb the towers and turn the other cheek?
how many other towers would have to fall with how many more men, women and children killed before you would do the same?
Oh hell no. Bin Laden's the one I want. You should want him too, everyone should. It's inexcusable that he got away. We should have thrown every resource at our disposal towards capturing him in Afghanistan. After that we should have sewn up the Taliban in Afghanistan, but nice. For two percent of what we spent on Iraq we could have build roads, hospitals and schools in Afghanistan. We'd have moderate Muslims all over the world wishing we'd invade their country next.
Note that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, and the Saudi ambassador's wife cut some checks to some unsavory characters here in the states. I would have gotten answers for that.
One thing I would certainly not have done would be to attack a secular nation in a war on Islamofascism. Saddam was as low as humanity can sink, but he wasn't my fault. I have every good wish for the people of Iraq, but I didn't feel responsible for Saddam. I do feel responsible for the civil war there. Saddam didn't have a damn thing to do with 9/11, but there are a lot of Saudis who did.
easy to be a monday morning quarterback!
Sometimes.
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It is MUCH easier (if intellectually lazy and dishonest) to demonize the current admininstration than to acknowledge the real battle, and to come to grips with the facts -- that Islam is a force for evil in the world, and that those who are determined to proseletyze it with violence must be fought wherever they are.
How do you justify the fact that we attacked a secular country in a war on Islam?
I am critical of the adminstration for this, but also for its pervasive corruption. Republicans DeLay, Ney, Jerry Lewis, Pombo, Cunningham, Norquist, Frist, Abramoff, Safavian, Libby, Doolittle, etc etc are indicted or under investigation. The right's retort is that the the corruption is bipartisan, but that's bull. William Jefferson is a garden variety crook, and there are a couple of other Dems in trouble for this and that, but the current crop of Republicans contains a web of corruption. I recited those names off the top of my head, but I can get more if you like.
I'm also critical of the administration for general incompetence. True to his background, Bush hasn't done much of anything very well as President. It's really hard to know where to start in making a list.
It's a hard jump to make from the liberal "we are all brothers" mantra - unless the first step is to decide that Republicans are so evil they must not be our brothers. That is where the media whores have decided to focus.
For my part I'm as happy to vote Repub. I liked Bush Sr. somewhat.
Again the MSM is predominanlty owned by the largest corporations on earth, the last entities you'd expect to form a liberal cabal. Can you explain the discrepancies of press coverage between Dem and Repub candidates that I listed above?
The REAL enemy uses that in his favor. So long as the US government is busy defending itself from those internal skirmishes, it can't focus on battling the global threat that waits to consume all of us.
Bush thought his mission was accomplished in 2003, and now says the battle will go on through 2008 when he's out of office. This is against a country that used to be secular as was no threat to anybody. Now we're worried about it becoming a Shiite gov't allied with Iran. You're saying if we'd just leave him alone everything would be okay?
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I think that you are trying to fit the Islamic mind into your mold. Giving them roads and hospitals sounds nice and makes everyone feel fuzzy and warm. Heck, it was the main vote getter for incumbent politicians in the USA for generations.
The Islamic leader demands compulsory religious war. Just a short read of Islamic history reveals a warring growth industry, that declares all territory held "Shat-l-Islami" (World of Islam) no unbelievers are technically allowed to enter. All territory once held (big tracts of Spain and France) is still considered to belong to them, and all infidels are to be driven out. The rest of the world is to be converted to Islam, at knife point if required, but there is no doubt that it is compulsory. It must be done. The Califate must be restored.
The state of Islamic society is their sacrament to Allah. To see us doing well, and their economy shattered, that is a deep insult to a jihadist. But instead of advancing his cultures living condition, he feels he must destroy yours. He does not give you credit for building him a hospital or a road. He is superior to you and you owe it to him. He does not care much for it anyway because it threatens his view of the order of things.
Radical Islam represents about 20% of the Islamic population, I believe, based on voting in Egypt and Turkey, where they get to vote, and the police don't come back and kill you if you didn't vote 'correctly'. (Even greater in Palestine) That's alot of people who wouldn't mind sawing your head off.
All your aguements seem to indicate that you are not able to identify the enormity of this challenge. You are making small acusations about politics-as-usual, while the world lurches toward a WWI scenario.
Hillary gets it. I don't want her for Prez, but she votes for the war on terror, and Moveon.org hates her for it. Leiberman gets it, and is still a liberal. The party of the big D is trying to dump him on this one issue.
In the last few years the exposure of the degree of Islamic incursion into western society has made it ever easier to see what will happen, and the number of people in denial gets smaller as the threat gets bigger. Dhimis that apologise for them, or try to appease them only help the Islamic cause. Have you noticed that not one prisoner or hostage of Islam is ever released? After all consessions and ransoms and publicity are wrung out for all they are worth, the person is tortured and ritually butchered. Sure seems nice at Gitmo in comparison.
We are good. Jihad is bad. There is no moral equivalence.
Oh, and Haliburtons biggest share holder used to be Lady Bird Johnson the wife of President L B J (D). so it's a bipartisan owned public held corporation. That Cheny Haliburton saw don't fly either.
Veep Al gore renewed their exclusive gov't contract when they were underbid, because they have the expeience for the job, and a track record of success, whether a D or an R sits in the oval office.
Oh, and about our sons and daughters. I accept that they are grown up enough to enter the world and have their moment. There can never be an end to protecting good from evil, and this generation of volunteer sevicemen & women don't need or want your interfering protection. They don't appreciate the mainstream media lying about them, and Self hating internationalist americans trying to get them killed by reporting security details and encouraging our enemy. (They do apreciate those air conditioners)
And that Arguement about Iraq being a secular country....looks rediculous right now. Saddam asserted that he was secular, but the Baathists (his party) are Sunnis. He suppressed Shiites and Kurds. Terrorists were allowed to traverse his country, maintain training camps and get patched up in his hospitals. Abu Nidal lived there. Saddam cut personal checks of $20,000 to the mothers of Palistinian bombers. He violated every UN cease fire resolution and used WMD on his own Kurds. Banned weapons parts are showing up in scrap yards in Turkey. Don't make Iraq out as some innocent country that wasn't trying to hurt anybody. Left to fester, Iraq was a keystone to future trouble. Bill Clinton started the official US policy to remove Saddam from office. The Senate agreed by vast bipartisan majority.
We are winning. The most amazing thing happened along the way. People are begining to realize that we won the VietNam war too. We left in disgrace, and North Vietnam won the field, But the Soviet Union nearly bankrupted themselves and our economy kept on rolling. Reagan's high frontier caused a spending race that finnished the USSR off without that atomic war no one wanted. My point is that you may not know what victory looks like, so you wouldn't be able to tell if your being lied to by MSM or out of power politicians. Heck, if you read the newspapers, you'd think Harry Reid runs the Senate and Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the house.
I know this forum attracts doomsayers that want to talk about living 'off grid' and surviving 'The Big One', but odds are that your leaders are smarter than the bench warmers and nay sayers. The big D had power for a good 50 years. I don't think the big R will have it that long, but they will if no rational opposition comes forward, and that's what I worry about.
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I think that you are trying to fit the Islamic mind into your mold. Giving them roads and hospitals sounds nice and makes everyone feel fuzzy and warm. Heck, it was the main vote getter for incumbent politicians in the USA for generations.
The Islamic leader demands compulsory religious war. Just a short read of Islamic history reveals a warring growth industry, that declares all territory held "Shat-l-Islami" (World of Islam) no unbelievers are technically allowed to enter. All territory once held (big tracts of Spain and France) is still considered to belong to them, and all infidels are to be driven out. The rest of the world is to be converted to Islam, at knife point if required, but there is no doubt that it is compulsory. It must be done. The Califate must be restored.
The state of Islamic society is their sacrament to Allah. To see us doing well, and their economy shattered, that is a deep insult to a jihadist. But instead of advancing his cultures living condition, he feels he must destroy yours. He does not give you credit for building him a hospital or a road. He is superior to you and you owe it to him. He does not care much for it anyway because it threatens his view of the order of things.
Certainly some Muslims feel this way.
Radical Islam represents about 20% of the Islamic population, I believe, based on voting in Egypt and Turkey, where they get to vote, and the police don't come back and kill you if you didn't vote 'correctly'. (Even greater in Palestine) That's alot of people who wouldn't mind sawing your head off.
So 80% of the population is more concerned with earning a living, raising their children and so forth, much like most of the people here. Bin Laden wants to force this 80% to choose sides. He was no doubt delighted when Bush attacked the only secular nation in the region.
All your aguements seem to indicate that you are not able to identify the enormity of this challenge. You are making small acusations about politics-as-usual, while the world lurches toward a WWI scenario.
I'll answer this if you can quote what I've said that supports this. What accusation did I make that is small, for instance?
Oh, and Haliburtons biggest share holder used to be Lady Bird Johnson the wife of President L B J (D). so it's a bipartisan owned public held corporation. That Cheny Haliburton saw don't fly either.
How many cost plus contracts do you hand out? Me neither. Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq. Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now. They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat. The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract. It sure smells like profiteering. What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?
Oh, and about our sons and daughters. I accept that they are grown up enough to enter the world and have their moment. There can never be an end to protecting good from evil, and this generation of volunteer sevicemen & women don't need or want your interfering protection.
Again, Iraq was a secular nation and not a threat to Israel much less the US. Those 2,500 kids died for no reason. How do you know how many of them would like to come home right now? How do you know how many parents feel their children died in vain?
They don't appreciate the mainstream media lying about them, and Self hating internationalist americans trying to get them killed by reporting security details and encouraging our enemy. (They do apreciate those air conditioners)
I've never met anyone who wants our soldiers to die. Anyone who feels this way is simply a traitor. Will you please answer my original questions about the MSM? You keep invoking it, but you won't respond to the reply I gave you. Why did the MSM treat Bush and the other candidates so differently?
And that Arguement about Iraq being a secular country....looks rediculous right now. Saddam asserted that he was secular, but the Baathists (his party) are Sunnis.
We're a secular nation and our leaders are all Christian.
Iraq was a secular nation. That is why Dr. Germ was a woman; women were allowed to study and drive and so forth. That is why there was distrust between him and Bin Laden. Bin Laden is motivated by his faith, Saddam was motivated by power.
Saddam cut personal checks of $20,000 to the mothers of Palistinian bombers.
That's true, but he did it for political reasons. He never did anything for Allah.
Don't make Iraq out as some innocent country that wasn't trying to hurt anybody. Left to fester, Iraq was a keystone to future trouble.
I didn't say it was innocent. I said it was not a threat, and that is true. There were no WMD programs underway, so I don't see how it was a 'keystone to future trouble' as much as say Iran or North Korea or maybe even Pakistan. We're bogged down in a war that didn't have to happen, by an administration which had no idea what it was getting into. Wolfowitz said, "There's no history of ethnic strife in Iraq." Bush thought he was done in 2003. They immediately disbanded the Iraqi army, leaving thousands of armed, unemployed, angry men. So not only was the war unnecessary, it was painfully mismanaged.
We are winning.
You need to support that somehow.
People are begining to realize that we won the VietNam war too.
No, they aren't. You are the only person I've ever heard say that.
...you wouldn't be able to tell if your being lied to by MSM or out of power politicians. Heck, if you read the newspapers, you'd think Harry Reid runs the Senate and Nancy Pelosi is the speaker of the house.
Really, please explain to me the specific examples I gave of the MSM treating Bush better than the other guys, and why the biggest companies in the world have formed a liberal cabal. You owe me that, given the number of times you've appealed to this meme.
I know this forum attracts doomsayers that want to talk about living 'off grid' and surviving 'The Big One', but odds are that your leaders are smarter than the bench warmers and nay sayers. The big D had power for a good 50 years. I don't think the big R will have it that long, but they will if no rational opposition comes forward, and that's what I worry about.
I see good and bad come from both parties. To me Hillary is everything that was bad about Bill but without his good points. I don't know much about Wesley Clark but he seemed like a bright spot last time around.
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o not only was the war unnecessary, it was painfully mismanaged.
Study history.
It actually looks like it was acutely well managed.
"mismanagement" assumes the end result aimed for was a stable modern society.
The impression I've had throughout is that what everyone here wants (just like africa) is everyone there fighting themselves.
If I could cause the USA to have another civil war, and the US army to fight itself on US soil, North Korea could kick your ass with what was left over after two or three decades of that.
Nah, machiavelli could understand modern world politics and macro-economics in a heartbeat.
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MSM browbeats this administration continuously.
They demanded the resignation of every cabinet member, one at a time Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, etc. etc. Where do you think the low poll numbers come from? MSM creates them by continuous negative reporting. All the MSM TV and our local newspapers openly stumped for Gore and Kerry in the presidential elections.
They don't report good economic news without adding a negative personal story, or some other detractor. You wouldn't know the deficit is being reduced this year due to a 5% economic growth by reading the Seattle papers.
There has not been one story of a heroic US serviceman in this conflict. Only death, wounds, and atrocities (usually without proof). Bill C never got that kind of negative coverage in Bosnia, and he was running the same kind of executive powers 'cowboy diplomacy' show. Except it was to assist Islam and suppress Christians.
As for mismanaged, Also consider that the enemy has the ability to change plans to mess ours up. War is about starting with a plan and changing it as conditions warrent and your supplies / training allow. Accusations of missmanagement don't fly, because the death rate is not in the tens of thousands for our troops. The statistics don't bear out the accusations. Yes it takes time, and yes, we are winning. The logistics required take time. The tactics of the enemy change and matching that takes time. But terrorist bombings dropped 20% after Al Zarkowi passed on. Every little bit helps.
William Randolf Hearst was one of the most conservative newspapermen, but he owned the Seattle PI, the most liberal paper in town. I never could understand why he didn't exert some control over the editors...So I don't believe the ownership has as much control as you think it does. I don't know whay that is.
Yes BinLadin wants the 80% to follow him, and considers our reaction a positive move, yet somehow he has to hide in a cave in Pakistan or Iran and make blind pronouncements about week old events. That's better than dead, that's impotent and bypassed by history. He's gone to direct internet posting because Al Jazira has been editing his content, and he doesn't like that!
As for small complaints;
You said "Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq. Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now. They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat. The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract. It sure smells like profiteering. What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?"
LBJ thru LadyBird owned the junk collection for military vehicles during VietNam. Huge money recovering those shot up trucks and tanks etc. This always goes on, does not matter who is in control, and must be actively watched during any war. It's the small stuff I was talking about.
How are we winning? Iraq has successfully completed 3 election cycles, the death rate is lower than some of USA's major cities like Miami or Detroit. More poeple die in swimming pool accidents or medical malpractice.
Military drawdown without timetable is starting. Libia gave up it's belligerant posture and joined the world of nations, Egypt had open elections, and Syria left Lebanon. Syria is being contained and it's terror ties are comming to light. Iran is showing it's intent for the world, and looks to start trouble, maybe a multinational solution will be found.......at the UN? :D
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MSM browbeats this administration continuously.
They demanded the resignation of every cabinet member, one at a time Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, etc. etc. Where do you think the low poll numbers come from? MSM creates them by continuous negative reporting. All the MSM TV and our local newspapers openly stumped for Gore and Kerry in the presidential elections.
The low poll numbers come from the fact that most people think Bush is incompetent. The MSM didn't fabricate the unendable war in Iraq or the incompetent response to Katrina or the fact that the millitary loathes Rumsfeld and so on.
Newspapers always pick a candidate, that's their job.
What I'm curious to hear you respond to is, why did the MSM give Bush such a free pass? I'll copy what I said:
"I must have heard two hundred outraged remarks in the MSM about Clinton 'not inhaling'. Bush won't deny cocaine use, and how much did the MSM push him on that? Bush apparently has a DUI arrest in 1976. How much would we have heard about that if Clinton did it? With Bush we don't even know for sure. Clinton was involved in Whitewater, which Starr spent something like 30 million investigating without levelling charges, and again it was all over the air waves. Bush sold insider Harkin stock right before catastrophic news, submitted the requisite SEC forms late and undated, and we heard hardly anything about that (he claims he was 'vetted', but the SEC under his dad declined to investigate). The MSM happily reported that Kerry's involvement in Vietnam was 'dishonorable', when he volunteered to drive around in a PT boat while getting fired at. Judith Miller works for the NY Times, and plugged the Iraq war as hard as anybody. Bush wipes away the sins of his youth by saying he was reborn, but he doesn't go to church. How much would we have heard about it Kerry or Gore or Clinton didn't go to church? Would the MSM not have a field day if Kerry or Gore had been a cheerleader?"
THAT is how you can impress me.
They don't report good economic news without adding a negative personal story, or some other detractor. You wouldn't know the deficit is being reduced this year due to a 5% economic growth by reading the Seattle papers.
There has not been one story of a heroic US serviceman in this conflict. Only death, wounds, and atrocities (usually without proof). Bill C never got that kind of negative coverage in Bosnia, and he was running the same kind of executive powers 'cowboy diplomacy' show. Except it was to assist Islam and suppress Christians.
Maybe you're right about the papers not covering good economic news, I read it but I don't remember where. However if I had a paper, I would trumpet the fact that Bush is fiscally a nightmare. He wants war but he's too yellow to do it right, by paying for it with taxes and drafting an adequate number of soldiers. I don't hear that from the MSM either.
As for mismanaged, Also consider that the enemy has the ability to change plans to mess ours up. War is about starting with a plan and changing it as conditions warrent and your supplies / training allow. Accusations of missmanagement don't fly, because the death rate is not in the tens of thousands for our troops. The statistics don't bear out the accusations. Yes it takes time, and yes, we are winning. The logistics required take time. The tactics of the enemy change and matching that takes time. But terrorist bombings dropped 20% after Al Zarkowi passed on. Every little bit helps.
I don't see why 2,500 deaths isn't significant whereas tens of thousands is. Incidentally medical technology has improved vastly as you probably know, so there are proportionally many more maimed soldiers than in past wars. What statistic shows that we are winning? The death toll is steady: http://icasualties.org/oif/. Al Zarqawi just died so your sample seems small to me. Can you give me a citation?
William Randolf Hearst was one of the most conservative newspapermen, but he owned the Seattle PI, the most liberal paper in town. I never could understand why he didn't exert some control over the editors...So I don't believe the ownership has as much control as you think it does. I don't know whay that is.
I guess that he wanted to paper to sell well. That is the elephant in the room for lots of conservatives, that people actually like a lot of liberal policies. Myself I'd rather finance my own retirement, but the populace really likes social security, for all its warts. GM can't sell cars because their expenses are higher due to health care costs. Secretly they'd probably like the government to take that over.
Yes BinLadin wants the 80% to follow him, and considers our reaction a positive move, yet somehow he has to hide in a cave in Pakistan or Iran and make blind pronouncements about week old events. That's better than dead, that's impotent and bypassed by history. He's gone to direct internet posting because Al Jazira has been editing his content, and he doesn't like that!
I don't see how anyone can think missing Bin Laden is okay. He was behind 9/11! Don't you want revenge?
As for small complaints;
You said "Anyway look at the vast charges of fraud they've been involved in during Iraq. Their stock tripled from the beginning of the Iraq war until now. They billed the US for something like twice as many meals as they actually served, and got caught serving rotten meat. The Chief Contracting Officer for the Army accused Haliburton of lying to her, and complained that there was no competitive bidding process for the oil field restoration contract. It sure smells like profiteering. What does the fact about Ladybird Johnson prove anyway?"
LBJ thru LadyBird owned the junk collection for military vehicles during VietNam. Huge money recovering those shot up trucks and tanks etc. This always goes on, does not matter who is in control, and must be actively watched during any war. It's the small stuff I was talking about.
I still don't see what that proves. Ladybird strangles puppies for all I know.
How are we winning? Iraq has successfully completed 3 election cycles, the death rate is lower than some of USA's major cities like Miami or Detroit. More poeple die in swimming pool accidents or medical malpractice.
Military drawdown without timetable is starting.
Like I said the death toll is steady. The civil war between the Shiites and Sunnis seems worse and worse.
Libia gave up it's belligerant posture and joined the world of nations, Egypt had open elections, and Syria left Lebanon. Syria is being contained and it's terror ties are comming to light. Iran is showing it's intent for the world, and looks to start trouble, maybe a multinational solution will be found.......at the UN? :D
I agree Bush probably deserves some credit for Libya and maybe for Libya, but the Egypt elections seeed like a sham. But if you want to go there, then I will bring up the fact that Bush's policies -- or lack thereof -- couldn't be much worse for N. Korea nd Iran.
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was thinking....ouch!
but given our poor military response to the aircraft hijackings in 01, the failure to use the collected intelligence at that point,
and our wide open borders in the south....
doesn't anyone find it kinda odd that we haven't be zapped, whacked, fried or infected at this point?
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was thinking....ouch!
but given our poor military response to the aircraft hijackings in 01, the failure to use the collected intelligence at that point,
and our wide open borders in the south....
doesn't anyone find it kinda odd that we haven't be zapped, whacked, fried or infected at this point?
I dunno where I read or heard this, it's probably just urban legend or wishful thinking.
But the story goes that W sent a back-channel message to the Saudis, with the intention of spreading the word to muslims worldwide.
"Hit us again, and we'll vaporize Mecca, Medina, and keep going until y'all run out of holy cities."
Or my peronal favorite, that the U.S. already has a nuke buried and ready to detonate in Mecca, or (pick a city)
If it's not true, it ought to be.
But ask yourself, how scared would the mullahs be if Gore was in the White House? What's that? Not very?
Exactly.
rg
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o not only was the war unnecessary, it was painfully mismanaged.
Study history.
It actually looks like it was acutely well managed.
"mismanagement" assumes the end result aimed for was a stable modern society.
The impression I've had throughout is that what everyone here wants (just like africa) is everyone there fighting themselves.
Words of such a clear truth are rarely spoken! Well said!
The intent is not so different for the US gen pop as far as big G is concerned be it from a "republican" or "democratic" point of view.
When the gen pop unifies, the over riding force is love, love which is not condusive to you becoming exceedingly wealthier than me or easily dictating my actions.
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Firebrick I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years. Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. Tongue
Guy Fawlks- actually, this debt was paid off finally earlier this year.
Wrong, The world war 2 debt is actually going to be paid off in December 31st of this year, but it was only about 10 percent of the amount that the US gave the british, we forgave the rest, stupid us.
The world war 1 debt is still unpaid and your country isnt even attempting repayment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm
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"But ask yourself, how scared would the mullahs be if Gore was in the White House? "
precisely, and besides
we would all be living in a "LOCKED BOX"
i really don't see why procrustes is going on and on with this insane thread, it won't be long and the mantle of power will shift his
way, and he will see first hand how things while they appear to be changing really are just different flavors of the same ole thing.
maybe we will get his hero, hillary, if so
we better all move offgrid, and be fully independant/self sufficient.
we will have higher taxes, unemployment will skyrocket, recession will come home to roost, the guys in uniform will be treated like doorman again (anyone remember that?), there will be a premature pullout of iraq (leaving that country to collapse),
gasoline will be banned, we will be driving battery powered cars, tree's will be hugged ....
and i will be just as miserable as mr procrustes
bob g
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My one and ONLY post on this thread.
I get a kick out of conservatives who also claim to be firm believers in uncontrolled capitalism. Capitalism is THE most powerful anticonservative force on the planet. Just look at what happens to any mature native population that is introduced to capitalism.
What most conservatives really want to maintain is the balance of power.
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The key word there is "uncontrolled".
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"But ask yourself, how scared would the mullahs be if Gore was in the White House? "
precisely, and besides
I'm not so sure. We do have all our military might bogged down in a country that used to have very little to do with Islamic jihad, unlike say Saudi Arabia or Iran. Iran isn't acting scared.
we would all be living in a "LOCKED BOX"
What do you mean? Gore would have taken away more civil liberties than Bush?
Incidentally I just read something interesting about US data mining tactics: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/07/terrorists_data.html.
i really don't see why procrustes is going on and on with this insane thread, it won't be long and the mantle of power will shift his
way, and he will see first hand how things while they appear to be changing really are just different flavors of the same ole thing.
How do you know what my way is? If I'm insane why don't you respond to this http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=355.msg9334#msg9334 ?
maybe we will get his hero, hillary, if so
we better all move offgrid, and be fully independant/self sufficient.
I knocked Hilary earlier in this thread. If Wesley Clarke runs again I'll likely vote for him, for whatever that's worth. I'm happy to vote Republican or Democrat.
i will be just as miserable as mr procrustes
You won't debate me any more and are calling me names instead. Is your frustration due to my genius, or is there an alternative theory?
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Firebrick I know how we can help the national debt, demand repayment of the loans the us made to britian from ww2 and ww1 that they have yet to repay and havent made payments in many years. Also they can repay 120 dollars to the United States Marine Corps for a set of issued boots that the damn limey bastards stole while I was taking a shower. Tongue
Guy Fawlks- actually, this debt was paid off finally earlier this year.
Wrong, The world war 2 debt is actually going to be paid off in December 31st of this year, but it was only about 10 percent of the amount that the US gave the british, we forgave the rest, stupid us.
The world war 1 debt is still unpaid and your country isnt even attempting repayment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4757181.stm
Ah well, when you pay the native indians a fair price for new york feel free to get back to us on that one and I'll get the queen to cut you a cheque.
oh hang on, after we all stole the american continent from the natives, you lot went and stole it from us by declaring independence.
on second thought screw the war debt, give us back our tea first.
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When the gen pop unifies, the over riding force is love, love which is not condusive to you becoming exceedingly wealthier than me or easily dictating my actions.
Do you seriously believe that? Dude! You need to get out more often; humans are the not at the top of the food chain by accident, it is because we are the most vicious and greedy species currently on the planet. When the gen pop unifies... we make war!
Ah well, when you pay the native indians a fair price for new york feel free to get back to us on that one and I'll get the queen to cut you a cheque.
oh hang on, after we all stole the american continent from the natives, you lot went and stole it from us by declaring independence.
on second thought screw the war debt, give us back our tea first.
That is the funniest thing I've read in days... Do you like Lipton?
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We never signed a promisary note for the tea, or the land from the indians(they have recieved payment of sorts now with their casino's)
During the revolutionary war we were enemies, the two world wars, allies, what a great way to #$## your allies in the @##.
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mr procrustes:
"If I'm insane why don't you respond to this "
if you go back and read what i said, you would get what was said and not what you think i meant.
i made reference to this being an insane thread, not that you or anyone on this board is insane.
"You won't debate me any more and are calling me names instead."
i dont think my making an observation as to you being miserable about the current admin/war/political climate is calling you names
anymore than a hillary admin would make me miserable and by extension call myself names.
if i am going to call you names it will be direct, such as A$$hole,
i personally don't know you so i can't call you names, what i can say from what i read of your posts on this thread is you are
passionate about your position, i can accept and respect that. i dont think it makes you crazy, or a miserable human being.
perhaps ill informed by a somewhat biased media, or coming to some faulty conclusions based on faulty data, or hell i am big enough
of a man to say that perhaps you are right.
But i dont have to agree with it.
bob g