Lister Engine Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dmp on May 15, 2008, 03:04:51 AM
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What say YOU?
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Algor.
Not realy fussy for synthetic fibers and course woolies it makes me itch, but the say if your going to go out in winter its one of the best things to wear....
So I guess maybe depending on the temperature.
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Well Doug,
EEEuuu... errr, Let's let this poll take it's toll eeeooleeooh!
Respectfully,
David
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Is there any doubt about the results of this poll from this bunch of grumpy old right wing reprobates? ;D
Stan
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Dough, you're thinking of Angora, and it's not synthetic it's goat hair. Don't let your fondness for goats hijack this thread now, my sheep will get jealous. ::)
Stan
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I got some pills for my Probate, so far the problem has been kept in check.
I f your a grumpy old guy cause of probate trouble see your doctor no need to suffer
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Probate troubles often work themselves out unless it's your own ???
Stan
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Hey it can sneak up.
First you think its a bit of stage fright at the urinal line up then you start having troubles alone.
Now that I have fully completely buggered this fellow thread I will bow out and let it go where it was meant
Al Gore
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I've had enough. I'm mozie'n back to the gore..al.
Yawn
David
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ALGOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOR)? Never used it much. Have some time on MatLab, though.
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is algore right?
on what?
that he invented the internet?
on global warming?
pulllleeeeeeze??????
i think he needs to be in a "lockbox"
bob g
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...or a diet!
David
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I need to choose three of these for a proper answer, no, money grubber & old pot head. I just think it interesting that he stole scenes for his movie from "The Day After Tomorrow" :o :o His next theory is that right wing politicans produce more fart gas than all the cows in the world & should be eliminated by whatever means nessiscary!
(man i miss that spell checker, & her supple skin) Scott R.
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The traction this man gets depresses me.
Whatever credibility of being awarded a Nobel Prize, well meaningless.
I am really getting TIRED of other people telling me what I must do, then
taking my money from me to do it.
The other side of the table[reality], is not allowed to even speak. Nope, Global
Warming[now Climate change] is real . No debate, Human caused.
Algore won't debate because of his lack of knowledge and his own hyprocrasy.
"Say Algore, do you have any interest in this carbon credit BUSINESS?"
Ohpaleeze!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, look............Sheep............,BaaaaaaaaaaBaaaaaaaBaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
God Bless Us All,
David
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i live for the day that when this question is asked
the answer will be
"Al who?"
or
"wasn't he dr frankesteins assistant?"
bob g
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Came in grumpy, darn cow hasn't calved yet, she's waiting 'til midnight or later. .... went down to the Legion for a beer, it was closed... must have got religion being Sunday. Thought I'd check in with the forum.
Enjoyed all these Al gore rhythms ( took 5 times to get rhythms spelled right, where did you get that spell checker?) That is about as far off the track as I can take you but I am smiling now, thanks dp
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I supose if Shotokovich or one of my other favorite composers of the clasical era were still alive they may take special interest in " Heavy Metal ". He only died in 1975 so I suspect he may have been aware of it just too bloody sick and old to do anything with it.
In some of his last works like Space time Continuum you can here the influance of the modern age and the electronic age lends itself well to this work ( hammond B3 and piano compliment each other ).
What strikes me is the operatic tones in the vocals. What could some of the greats done with electrifiied distorstion and powerful projecting voices ?
No matter these men are dead and we are no matter how nice the world looks threw our rose coloured glasses " Killing our mother "
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zT6zRC4iWhM
You can't stand in the face of a shit storm with your chin up forever you will bend you will weaken and you will regret what you have done to your mother
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Doug:
as usual you analogies zoomed right over my head!!!
but thats cool, i ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, (hopefully not the dullest either)
anyway, my exception to all that is algore is the hypocrasy that he represents
got no problem in trying to leave this place a better place than we found it, and i try to practice that philosophy
i just take a hard view of folks like old al, telling me what, when, where, and how i am going to do everything
all the while increasing taxes, increasing his political position, political capital etc,,,
which almost always means increasingly larger government, reaching ever deeper into a rapidly emptying pocket,,
my pocket!
thinking that an old refridgerator box, a shakelight and a playboy is going to be something to aspire to the rate folks
like algore are going.
of course sooner or later there will be no fridge boxes, gotta save the tree's you know, and sure as crap stinks r134 will probably turn out
to alter the dna of a slug and make fridges illegal anyway...
then there will be a boycott of 3rd world labor practices so the shakelights will be verboten as well.
as for playboy, i am amazed that the womens lib movement haven't assicinated old hef by now anyway!
maybe i will just go join mark and ollie in papua new ginea?
eat slugs, build a mud hut, and wear a penis gourd?
bob g
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I realy don't give a damb about Al Gore or just about any other politician these days.
I want to know is this all there is?
What hell am I doing?
When I tally the sums what was all this for?
And now some Philip Glass and a realy disturbing Spoof of Batman......
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vINtNxnGMBg&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsxqQIu_5s&feature=related
Bob your no more a knuckle dargger than me, something is wrong and its way beyond global cooling/warming and what ever the flavour of the week tap dance and fart show the politicians do.
If you find a friendlier Penis guard/gourd PLEASE send me one.
All I get is kicked in the nuts these days and I'm sick and tired of it
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Doug:
as ozzie so artfully croons
"i'm sick and tired of being sick and tired"
with the economic climate in our area and the fact that our business has been too heavily weighted in favor of the building industry
the first months of this year have left me more than a bit cynical, cranky, grouchy and just down right hard to live with.
got customers thinking now they can come back 30 plus days after the due date and renegotiate the price on a previously approved job.
whats worse, i have one that wants to renegotiate the hours billed on a repetitive job, the hours which are 2.2 and have been 2.2 for the last
25 years that i know of !!! and
he not only wants to renegotiate the hours billed, but wants credit for each of the repetitive jobs going back 2.5 years!!
ain't gonna happen!!! no friggin way on earth.
now this fellow thinks i am going to role over and do it for less hours??? ya right!!!
i might charge less per hour,, but i damn sure ain't gonna charge less hours.
i digress :)
anyway with the economic climate being what it is, i have little patience for bozo, pseudo, fanatical, politico, talking head, snake oil selling, pieces of crap
that think they have the right to pry what little money i finally do get paid out of my pocket.
i am mad as hell, and i ain't takin it no more!!!
(till tomorrow,, afterall it will be monday)
:)
bob g
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Dark days Bob.
No shortage of work up here just brains.....
My boy will be playing with my brother on the the long weekend while I work......
I have a strike to prepare for next summer, sad when you can see them coming this far off
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got customers thinking now they can come back 30 plus days after the due date and renegotiate the price on a previously approved job.
bob g
MMM let me see now, you want to renegotiate the contract, Fine, fuel has gone up and my kid starts college next month, lets just add another 100K to the contract. Oh your request for less hours ... NO. care to renegotiate again?
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Al Gore?
FWIW, I see him as a rather hypocritical spokesman for a very real issue. Takes a whole lot of digging these days to get to the root of the matter (any matter) but if you do the digging I don't see how you could possibly draw any other conclusion. Doesn't really matter what you believe though, 'cause as long as corporate interests are running the world powers, business will trump people every time. In time I expect the earths climate will start to resemble the way it was when the fossil fuel deposits were still plants, depending on our enthusiasm for returning the CO2 to the atmosphere. On the positive side I was able to get my tomatoes out a couple weeks early this year. ;D
Bill
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I don't think many of us want to screw up our planet for our grand kids, we seem to agree on that. What's eating at many of us is how to keep from doing that.
When it comes to making small changes, many many people need to be hit upside the head with a 2x4 (speaking algoreically of course) to get any sort of "new' concept into their heads.
Maybe we should get that big ex wrestler who's a politician somewhere in wisconsin (?) now to metaphorically whack a few knuckle heads like one lady who insists on driving her perfectly able, 14 year old son 2 blocks to school in a navigator and then complains that she can't get into the parking lot so her kid doesn't have to walk more than 12 feet to get to the front door of the school.
Stan
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Its enough to give you algoreaphobia.
Bob, trust me, the slugs suck and the namba's (penis gourde) tend to chafe.
Fred
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and the namba's (penis gourde) tend to chafe.
Fred
That's GOTTA hurt at the end of the day . . .
Quinn
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and the namba's (penis gourde) tend to chafe.
Fred
That's GOTTA hurt at the end of the day . . .
Quinn
...and much worse if designed by the UN.
David
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I wonder if he wears gloves and takes a bag with him as he walks his dog around his neighborhood?
Well...the stuff ends up here anyhow.
David
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Being young and nauive, I used to believe the global warming rhedoric until 1991 when Mt. Penatubo erupted and the USGS stated that 1000 times more greanhouse gasses were emitted than all of humanity has
emitted since the creation of fire. That statement was quickly retracted....wonder why??? Now the USGS states this on their site..." Nearly 20 million tons of sulfur dioxide were injected into the stratosphere
in Pinatubo's 1991 eruptions, and dispersal of this gas cloud around the world caused global temperatures to drop temporarily (1991 through 1993) by about 1°F (0.5°C). The key word here is "temporarily". If the Earth was
so fragile...why are we still here? I agree that we should find alternative fuels...but not because of global warming, but because of supply.
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Yesterday I finished Vox Day's book, The Irrational Athiest, and in it, he takes a swipe at the GW fearmongers. His take on the subject is that it's all a ruse by those with a Socialist bent to bolster the power and authority of central government. That observation is consistent with the rhetoric of the GW proponents, and it is also consistent with their political leanings in general.
Quinn
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Is that a new twist on "there's a red under every bed" scenario of the 40's? (or was it the 50's)
Stan
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Oh, there's one now! ;D
Seriously, just trying to make sense of something that otherwise doesn't.
q.
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Quinn is exactly right! Barack said it the other day, he wants to make you drive smaller cars, eat less food & keep your t-stat at below 72 F (in winter). this is all a power & money grab by the politicians. if they can get into your car yoour house & your life who can ever get them out!
scottt r.
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Is that a new twist on "there's a red under every bed" scenario of the 40's? (or was it the 50's)
Stan
Girl, I want you here with me
But Im really not as cool as Id like to be
cause theres a red, under my bed
And theres a little yellow man in my head
And theres a true blue inside of me
That keeps stoppin me, touchin ya, watchin ya, lovin ya
Paranoia, the destroyer.
Paranoia, the destroyer.
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Is that a new twist on "there's a red under every bed" scenario of the 40's? (or was it the 50's)
Stan
I'm too old to hide under beds these days.
I just hide in the closet with the queer now
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" DOUG FOR GOVERNOR " ! ...closets a plus.
Yeah
David
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One thing we all learned by high school is that matter, or energy can neither be created, or destroyed.
I believe it nieve to think oil, gas or coal is not now forming under our feet. There for our future.
I believe we will find a way to get to it.
Whatever man uses comes back to him.
A'm I wrong?
David
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Yup, you're wrong! We'd have to be sucking for O2 in a high CO2 atmosphere that is extremely hot and humid with extreme levels of UV shining down on us. Just like it was a couple of hundred million years ago when ferns and primative trees grew many feet per year in swamps so thick you couldn't wade through them, piling up dozens of feet of rotten vegetation every year that was constantly getting buried under sand and muck.
Stick around for a couple of hundred years, maybe it'll come to pass yet again!
Not a pretty place to live, I'll pass thank you. >:(
Stan
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You can make Possil fuels from biomass Stan or rather transform one thing to another.
And I'm sure its happening under our feet
What you can't do is negotiat with the earth to do it fast and where you want.
And you can;t do if on the cheap in a factory....
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Stan seems awfully sure of what he believes is true. I wish I were that sure. There are so few things that are certain in the natural world, I've always thought it's safer to remain skeptical until you have enough information to be sure. I suppose everyone, though, has their own threshold for belief. For myself, I require more than some has-been politician desperate to remain relevant to the public who puts out what a British judge ruled was a propaganda film that wildly exaggerates and misrepresents the facts.
The same people who cannot forecast the weather accurately a week out want you to believe their mathematical models. Models which are built atop nested assumptions, each with its own statistical error which compounds as each new term is added to the model. These people want you to believe that their models are actually predictive of what will happen to the earth's overall climate years in advance when the data is unavailable. And they never show you their margin of error. Why is that? They show you a thin black line on a chart. If I presented data that way, I can guarantee you my colleagues would be falling all over themselves trying to impress the VP sitting in the corner by pointing out that I did not include in my chart the confidence limits in my data. Yet the GW fearmongers get away with doing just that, and nobody calls them on it. To me that says the conclusions have already been drawn, so models are substituted for data. And models can be tweaked this way and that to produce whatever its creator wants it to show.
Now, in contrast to predictive modeling, here is some historical data. Check out the following site. You'll find that the earth's climate during the Carboniferous Period is not as you say it was:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/Carboniferous_climate.html
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/quinnf_01/CO2andMeanGlobalTemps.jpg)
"What this graph shows is there is no correlation in the geologic record between
atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperature. The Earth went into an ice age 450
million years ago despite a level of atmospheric carbon dioxide that is ten times what it is
today. 150 million years ago, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were five times what they
are today, but that didn’t stop a Cretaceous-aged glaciation."
Such drastic shifts in earth's climate are brought about by far powerful forces than mankind is capable of inciting. Until we have more to go on than mathematical models whose cumulative errors of prediction dwarf the effect they are trying to predict, I'll remain skeptical. Show me the data, not a model.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the wise are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell
Quinn
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"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the wise are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell
Beautiful. Ain't it the truth...
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According to the womenfolk around here, "If a man expresses his opinion deep deep deeep in the forest where no one can hear, he is still wrong." dp
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Not to debate the validity of human caused global warming with those who are much better educated ( and probably intelligent) than I, but, in view of the last 8 years, I find a statement like this positively Orwellian.
Yesterday I finished Vox Day's book, The Irrational Athiest, and in it, he takes a swipe at the GW fearmongers. His take on the subject is that it's all a ruse by those with a Socialist bent to bolster the power and authority of central government. That observation is consistent with the rhetoric of the GW proponents, and it is also consistent with their political leanings in general.
Does Vox recognize that those with a Facist bent have been doing exactly what he accuses the "socialists" of doing while denying human caused GW?
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I don't know quinn, maybe you should have read what I said more carefully, I said a couple of hundred million years ago, during the last part of the jurassic period when the North sea oil deposits were formed, as I was just reading about. It seems to me with CO2 levels at almost 3000 ppm (your chart) compared to 380 ppm avg today, it seems kind of high to me :o
Stan
btw...you can make a good argument without calling me names you know, it actually adds to your credibility.
Just did a little research on messr. Heib (people who you are quoting), it seems like he has some conficts of interest, like being chief engineer for the West Virginia Office of Miner’s Safety (I've not verified this but it is interesting it's been reported and not argued). I wonder why he would be promoting the burning of coal?? I also wonder what he knows about climate?
Here's one reviewer's opinion of Mr. Heib
"If Hieb is not interested in advancing scientific understanding via the time-honoured peer-review method, it's most likely that his agenda is to create the impression that there is scientific doubt about global warming. A conspiracy? Who benefits - well, his employer - the coal industry. While the public believes there is doubt among scientists, there is less political will for a carbon tax. So people like Hieb publish junk science to create the public conditions that help the fossil-fuel industry stall the inevitable tax on carbon emissions." http://globalwarmingwatch.blogspot.com/2006/04/end-of-our-epoch-all-in-good-time-2.html
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Please nice words people we dont need another pissing copntest about global warming or shite like that.
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Exactly what I was saying Doug. ;D
Stan
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we do not need another one ton concrete block war//sid
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You have learned well Jens ...
You are strong with the hijack force but never forget us masters are still here.....
it weighs lots......
How do you break up an Italian wedding?
Shout the cement truck is here.....
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Termites in the rains forests emit more CO2 than we do...believe it or not :o
I hate to through out a comment without substantiating it...here's some facts. Search for yourself.
Termite and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Facts: Termites produce more Carbon Dioxide (CO2) each year than all living things combined.
Scientists have calculated that termites alone produce ten times as much carbon dioxide as all the fossil fuels burned in the whole world in a year.
Pound for pound, the weight of all the termites in the world is greater than the total weight of humans.
Scientists estimate that, worldwide, termites may release over 150 million tons of methane gas into the atmosphere annually. In our lower atmosphere this methane then reacts to form carbon dioxide and ozone.
Just wanted to put things into perspective. The Earth is more resiliant than the GW'ers know...or want to know. Plankton removes most of our CO2 and when the level is higher...plankton grows exponentially.
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Yah and we've got millions (? look it up) of acres of dead pine trees up here in BC now due to the pine beatle scourge, all caused by global warming. The beatles need at least 2 weeks of -40 deg (doesn't matter F or C, it's the same) to get killed off in the winter. Hasn't happened for more than 10 years and so all those dead trees are going to fall down and rot, releasing huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. It's a vicious cycle that's spiralling out of control.
I'm not saying the earth is going to be screwed up, our planet has indeed survived more serious catastrophes in the past. What's going to get screwed up is my grandkids lives.
Stan
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Benjamin, "Ya gotta get in da termite business. THAT's the future!"
"Screw plastics, not my wife."
I'd hang on to Kathren Ross if I were you.
David
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What timing, last night the termites flew out in swarms to look for new diggs (a week or so of intolerable "buginess" just after sunset)
Termites in the rains forests emit more CO2 than we do...believe it or not :o
I hate to through out a comment without substantiating it...here's some facts. Search for yourself.
I did a search (several actually) and found reference to termite CO2 production being greater than human production on a pest control site. Looking further (EPA and other university sites) I found reference to termite production of CH4 (Methane) which is a much more potent - 20 times - greenhouse gas than CO2) but Termites lag way behind wetlands in CH4 emitted.
I'm not trying to be an a@@hole here; Everyone involved in the issue of G.W. has an agenda - Caused by humans vs Natural cycle - much of what is bandied about (from both sides of the argument ) is unadulterated bullsh#t. we could debate this issue with convincing evidence supporting our prospective sides forever - we'd still never solve anything. Even President Bush has publicly stated that G.W. (ok climate change) is happening.
Now here's an Idea, what about a Real debate (not like those presidential candidate "debates" the media puts on) a bunch of heavy hitters on both sides of the issue.
The big difference between the CO2 in Earth's natural cycle and that introduced by man is the CO2 we humans introduce is very old, it's been out of the "loop" for hundreds of millions of years.
Climate change is occurring, faster than most scientists predicted - pine beetles are bad, wait til the permafrost melts and releases all that sequestered CH4 - or ocean temperatures warm enough to sublimate all those methane hydrate deposits. Caveat - IF they melt.
Stans right, what will our grandkids lives be like?
Fred
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A debate has been happening, just in print. Anyone with real credentials has been published and peer reviewed up the yin yang (technical term). Most of the "junk scientists" (those employed by Exxon etc.) haven't published in credible scientific journals so no one can officially find fault with their "conclusions" which are always the same, "There's significant doubt about man's contribution to global warming". The main purpose is to cast enough doubt on the issues to convince enough of the population to lobby politicians. Sorry, didn't mean to use the "P" word.
Just wait until Exxon catches on to the gag many of the auto manufacturers use. They spin off an automotive magazine they own, and then do a survey and "find" that their cars are the best/most popular/most reliable/greenest (take your pick) on the market. No one ever said big business wasn't smart! ???
Stan
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I propose a new theory I call enviromental side stepping.
Since we can't be sure what is going on lets endlessly debate that point, the real issue that is we are getting mixed signals from the earth that maybe she is sick but only a little bit ( like all Soviet leadership in the early 80's always had a cold on May day and shite lol ).
Perhaps she is alergic to humanity and not sick at all.....
If thats the case we can find a for proffit solution.
Maybe we are sick and nature is the deasese muh hah hah........
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Maybe Gaia (mother earth) is starting to sense that humans are like invading bacteria and rousing the white blood cells to knock us all off! :o
Stan
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BACTERIA??? I now am a WART on the earth, oops, PLANET! I must be lanced and be rid of.
What if I weren,t?
I'd fester, multiply all the way to create language. That, horros, would lead to communication.
Knowledge would be realised and shared. {losing this bacteria thing here, well for a moment}
Umm, okay,
I, we, Humans should have an antibiotic created to, well, keep us, at the least, controlable.
Who will do this? The Super Men. Wa Voll! HIEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wake up,
DAVID
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dmp,
The atibiotic has been around for years but the uptake has obviously not been sufficient to curb the population increase.
Just look at the world population of pre-, and post-, 100 years ago. That should tell you what is and will happen unless something is done about it. Extrapolate another 100 years or so and then reckon on how the Earth would support these 'bacteria'.
The dinosaurs were around for about 150 million years, we have been around less than 150 thousand years - OK a few million years on top if you add in our development - but that is chicken feed compared to the lizards.
We are fairly certain that their demise came about due to a rock from space - nothing of their doing. I believe humans will bring about their own demise, one way or another. They won't be around long enough for a rock to obliterate everything!
At the time I did not realise the closeness of armageddon in 1962. Perhaps there were not enough megatonnes of nuclear devices to completely destroy our home planet but what, I wonder, would have been the consequences if they had been released in anger?
There are now even more idiots around who are gleefully polluting the planet, without a consideration of any kind except for lining their pockets, or following some religious fanaticism to the end. Yes, compare with the crusades of 700 years ago, but we didn't learn from it then so why should we now?
Oh, by the way, that antibiotic? The contraceptive pill.
Regards, RAB
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RAB/in 1962 I ws in the same place/ I did not realize how close we were to armageddon/as a 17 year old mechinc in a atomic missle battalion/I was called in the company commander offfice and asked did i want to make out a will/as a private, I only had what was issued/ so i said what for, I do not own anything.after it was explained that in a week. I would probavly be dead or missing.so I said no. lot of dumb looks but nothing was said/glad they were wrong/ as for the antibiotic. wonderful results but one of the worlds largest relegion frowns on useing it, so they have more children and most of the countrys are very poor/I know some one will object to that but remember every one has freedon of speach and I an intitled to mine/no I do not belong to that group// I belong to the small group that could care less what you do or say /just do not try to force it on me/but you have never lived until you have gone to a church that handle snakes//no I do not belong to that one either/sid
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Chinese have the one child policy - but parents want a male child - ultrasound has become illegal (except for necessary reasons) cuz parents get abortions (alson illegal in china) and try again for a male fetus. Simply limiting the number of children a couple can have presents a whole new set of problems.
Sorry Sid, but not everyone in the world enjoys freedom of speech, thats one of the reasons we cherish that right so much in the USA.
Why so many children when one or two would do? My wife's family in the Philippines believe (like most) that lots of kids are necessary to A. work the fields and or B. children are the parents retirement plan. I'd venture to say that some form of this system is pervasive thru-out the third world.
The New York Times "Last year, the decision was easy for Mr. Miller and everyone else (farmers): prices of corn were high because of new government mandates for production of ethanol, a motor fuel. This year, so many crops look like good bets, and there is so little land on which to plant them."
Holy Thomas A. , we're growin' food that could be used to feed the global "bacteria" population for fuel and we're running out of land to grow it on.
Fan Qui, Fred (guess I'm feelin kinda chinese lately)
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We have the same problem in the good ole usa.. people having more children that they can feed and take care of/schools do not properlty educate them,because you can not educate a person that does not want to be in school////but we do have some of the finest prisons in the world..some will be there for life/ (1st cousin, murder) best place for him//we are not running out of farm land. we are running out of farmers who are will to work 18 hour days and make very little. I have a friend that farms over 4000 acres.it is a gamble every year just to continue.. his biggest money maker and what has saved the farm more than once is.. a trailer park beside the expressway/ he farms the tourist on the way to Florida..sid
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Weather runs in cycles, volcanoes & termites put more crap into the air every year than we have in 200 years. should we try to not put so much crap in the air ? yes, thats one reason i attend this site. Scientists that oppose the global warming theories can't get published because they're not PC enough to buckle under or they're affraid of losing thier jobs or being laughed at by the PC/GW crowd. Al Gore flys around in a 1976 gulf stream "gas guzzler" jet because he's obviously not so worried about it to spend his money to buy a new jet, but he doesn't have a problem telling me how to spend my money. There in lies the problem, if they love "gaia", the mother earth god (give me a break!) so much he would dump his cash & his jet & bicycle every where he goes. (don't look for that to happen any time soon). I think this is all a scam to relieve me of my hard earned money & to gain power in ths country & others. The Cap & trade bill is a prime example, they are going to try to cap your "emissions" & if you run over your limit (set by some one that no one knows & knows nothing about you) you have to buy "credits" from some one else, see where the back door tax comes in. & there goes your money again. so if your rich enough your life goes on just like Al's, if not you have to change your world of give up your wealth. THIS IS A SCAM TO GET YOUR MONEY, WISE UP!!!!
Scott R.
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I don;t quite buy into the whole Gaia concept but I have spent my life working in the buisness of extracting a finite resource from the ground.
I can see the end as distant blip, the old timers say dig deaper and you find more and they are right but the ground pushes back.
Holes the miners drill turn egg shaped from the presure and stick the rods, and back likes to crack and spit and drop shards of stone on my head.
This tells me this earth ( ground ) in particular is not happy with me......
Its changed the way I look at the world, I accept the concept of limited resources and deminishing return on investment to extract them.
I have come to look at the world around me in the same way and some things are very clear and obvious.
In my grandfather's day there was an underground spring inthe mine where he worked, he used to drink from it and even bring it home to drink because it was very fine cold fresh water.
In my mine the water dripps on the back of my neck from cracks, it runs from blood red to electric green and form stalagtites that range from white to red and blue green funk.
It burns my skin both as a chemical reaction from what evil has been desolved and it just plane hot.
If I drank it I would probably die lol.
This difference in only 2 generations is not lost on me....
In the old mans day there was nowhere to go but forward and there were no limits and few repercussions.
Now I see the limits on the horizon and the day my job becomes non ecconomicaly viable.
And in the here and now I see push back from unconsious non living forces of the earth itself and and am reminded of a lick Pink Floyed song about how " she will take it back some day " with every bump, snap drop of burning water from cursed earth the miners dig around me stinging my eyes and desolving my mine buggy before my eye ( 3728 RTV retired at 1400 hours 1 1/2 years use due to heavy frame corrosion, the unit it replaced lasted 12 years in a drier, friendlier upper section of mine ).
And the rocks on the hill in my bak yard are burned black from acid rain ( but you can see the white and balck speckle granit still there if you opn a fresh fracture ).
And the creek down the road runs red with rust leached from the ground.
And the water in my sump in the basement leaves a red stain on the bricks as the iron leaches from the slag back fill under my driveway
And the stuff in garden dies from acidification of the soil when the droughts come on in the summer here so I don't bother growing stuff anymore.
And the metal that leach in that water are in me and if you reach into your pocket right now and pull out a shiny coin its the nickel in that coin that came from here that was the cause of all this. The need for resource drives the demand that pays the bill that buy s the home that sits on cursed earth.
And I have no idea what to do about it.
If I do nothing it will play itself out and someday all the black stuff will erode form the rocks and the acid will wash away with the rain and trees will be back and all that great stuff but the question is not can the earth recover from us the question is do we have the right to bread like rabbits and strip the world of resources that took billions of years to develop for the sake of some easy living that might last 100 to 400 years of so?
Maybe more maybe less??????
I have no idea anymore of global warming is caused by farting termites of SUV's but the termite was here first and come on slow the SUV just arrived on the scene and in whats only the blink of an eye compared to other life forms we are new on the scene too and you can't say we are bengnin as the termites...
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What a totaly miserable outlook on life, Doug!
You really cannot see, or have been blinded by AG and his ilk, the true and simple
greatness of mankind.
I can't say anymore than that. You and alot on this thread love guilt.
Wallow in it. Recede into the proctive arms of an all-corrective world government!
BTW
Thanks Algore for inventing the internet.
Gives me a place to vent.
David
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I had an interesting experience the other night. My wife and I sat down and watched an entire hour of the TV show "Boston Legal" (I like the humour). They were arguing that some town should be allowed succeed from the country and the one lawyer, trying to prove america wasn't all that great was listing all the "sins" that had been committed by them in the past. The list was staggering!
My wife is not a history buff and was shocked at it all. I reminded her that many many other countries, peoples, civilizations etc. had committed so many atrocities against their fellow humans that any "alien" putting our race on trial wouldn't have a very hard job getting a death sentence. Even in a supposedly low key, civilized country like Canada we have one race of natives that we successfully exterminated early on. Google Beothucks.
Stan
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What are you talking about miserable outlook ?
Its my life, its my job if I was miserable doing it, I would quit. But " The man " keeps paying me and man the money is good. I smile all the way to the bank on Friday but way down deep inside I know the unavoidable fact the good times come and go and someday they will go to never return. If they can and will end here they will end else ware and sooner or later we are forced to deal with the fact we have limits that all the bitching and crying and complaining to politicians will not change
You would have to be a blind mellon not to see there is a cost for everything we do.
Everything we extract, refine, burn, mold, eat, it all comes at a cost. Something with a little planing and proper stewartship can last forever ( like good soil and good farming practices ) something play out like a coal field and somethings can never be returned to their original state like a clear cut forrest
Yes I am critical of the way we do things but I don't advocate we move back into caves.
Let me ask you something Dave.
What do you do for a living?
In the long run how can you or the rest of us make a living continue and is unrestricted growth possible or even desirable?
If I am so wrong and so foolish that I have completely missed something and you can set me straight please do. I would love nothing better than to know that the truth is there is no limits for anything realy important in life ( thats not a job at you I'm serious I would love to have my fears and doubts blown out of the water ).
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Doug// I know you know the old saying// if I knew I was going to live this long.. I would have taken better care of my self///it seen like yesterday that my son was the age of your son/ now he has a son that age/one day you are young and care free next day you are looking back///sid
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Well I am a great believer in the human spirit and our ability to master our destiny... either good or bad.
Growing up, Lake Erie was a joke; it was dead and a source of real concern. Today it has a thriving commercial fishery because of humankind interventions.
In the 1930’s our agriculture ways were striping the soil of its ability to sustain life, today we have developed crop rotation systems that gets more food out of an acre than at any time in our history.
At the time of Jesus, Britain had a thriving wine industry; today it is too cold to grow the grapes. Greenland and Vineland (Newfoundland) were discovered by the Vikings 1000 years ago, today are cold and not capable of supporting agriculture.
The Sahara Desert has been growing according to Al Gore and the Global Warming crowd, but lets get some background.
The climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variation between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years. During the last ice age, the Sahara was bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries. The end of the ice age brought better times to the Sahara, from about 8000 BC to 6000 BC, perhaps due to low pressure areas over the collapsing ice sheets to the north
People lived on the edge of the desert thousands of years ago since, immediately after the last ice age, the Sahara was a much wetter place than it is today. Over 30,000 petroglyphs of river animals such as crocodiles (which still exist in parts of the desert) survive, with half found in the Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria. Fossils of dinosaurs, including Afrovenator, Jobaria and Ouranosaurus, have also been found here. The modern Sahara, though, is not as lush in vegetation, except in the Nile Valley, at a few oases, and in the northern highlands, where Mediterranean plants such as the olive tree are found to grow. The region has been this way since about 3000 BC
By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today, leading to the gradual rather than abrupt desertification of the Sahara.The Sahara is currently as dry as it was about 13,000 years ago.
So this process of Climate change started long before the advent of the SUV. We are just coming out of a little ice age, so naturally our temp is going to rise.
I wish humankind would concentrate on things we can effect, like polution so that we have clean water, clean air and safe soil. That would be more constructive that a Carbon market, and these silly movies based on junk science.
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I second that motion.
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What are you talking about miserable outlook ?
Its my life, its my job if I was miserable doing it, I would quit. But " The man " keeps paying me and man the money is good. I smile all the way to the bank on Friday but way down deep inside I know the unavoidable fact the good times come and go and someday they will go to never return. If they can and will end here they will end else ware and sooner or later we are forced to deal with the fact we have limits that all the bitching and crying and complaining to politicians will not change
You would have to be a blind mellon not to see there is a cost for everything we do.
Everything we extract, refine, burn, mold, eat, it all comes at a cost. Something with a little planing and proper stewartship can last forever ( like good soil and good farming practices ) something play out like a coal field and somethings can never be returned to their original state like a clear cut forrest
Yes I am critical of the way we do things but I don't advocate we move back into caves.
Let me ask you something Dave.
What do you do for a living?
In the long run how can you or the rest of us make a living continue and is unrestricted growth possible or even desirable?
If I am so wrong and so foolish that I have completely missed something and you can set me straight please do. I would love nothing better than to know that the truth is there is no limits for anything realy important in life ( thats not a job at you I'm serious I would love to have my fears and doubts blown out of the water ).
Douglas
My "credentials". White male, 54, expanding waist, thinning hair, bad back, damnidable arthritis, bad hands, failing eyesight, with the
bright side of discrecionary hearing. More...?
Father, Grandfather, ex husband. More...?
Retired...I only suspect, from the heating business. Sold oil, coal and heating installations in my family's business. Sold due to
oppresive regulation. Still install equipment for friends.
Kindergarten, grade school, high school, 2yrs. college, trade school, seminars, officerships in trade and owner associations including
Jaycees, Chamber of Commerce and the Knights of Columbus.
I'll go back to grade school here. "Matter[energy] can neither be created nor destroyed".
I would be naive to think differently.
David
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Not doubting you Dmp.....
I am however going to bow out from here on.
I have nothing constructive to add and I dount think I ma going to find and answeres here that I like or accept.
I think I am open minded enough to thik for myslef on this matter but I have not seen a compelling arguements that beyond the global warming bit will lead me to believe we are not consuming more than we can afford to.
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I found myself listening to a song today I first heard while working in a forestry lookout in the Woss area of N. Vancouver Island in 1968 (ish), called "In the Year 2525" by Zager and Evans. There's a line in it that says "In the year 9595, I'm kind of wonderin if man is going to be alive, he's taken everything this old earth can give, and he ain't put back nothin". Kind of poignant eh?
Stan
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Remember the song well. Wonder which calender they were referring to?
Starting an addition to the house. When we built the house 7 years ago rebar was $275 per ton - yesterday I bought a ton for $980 next week it goes to $1100.
More people, more emerging developing nation economies with improving prosperity and more demand for everything. Take a look at some interesting "peaks" on the horizon like dirt, metal, water, corn etc.
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Peak dirt I like that one.....
We are already peak in the production of many non feros metals. This doesn;t hower take into consideratiopn of amny other ways of getting at metals such as leaching methods this will offset the decline in Suplide ores but at a higher price ( more waste and lower extraction numbers ).
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Don't forget that any day now someone is going to invent a replicator. ;D
Stan
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Something interesting.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23411799-7583,00.html
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Stan:
don't get me wrong,, i love the song 2525,,, but
seems like there are those that are basing their science on mid 60's Rock?
i remember when chernobyl went pop!, and all the bruha about it glowing in the dark for the next 50,000 years or something like that
literally everything dead, even the cockroaches, all the tree's, grass, animals, and people exposed died off.
nothing left as would be expected,, but
20 odd years later and everything is back except for man, the grass, birds, deer, wild pigs, bugs, tree's ... everything!
(actually the area supports the largest population of deer and wild pigs in the region)
i suspect mother nature can clean the toilet rather quickly if need be
i know one thing , as of yesterday seattle has had a high temp of 60 degree's or more only 23 days so far this year, it is june and still snowing in the passes
and our heaters are still running.
i could stand a touch of global warming right about now.
the trouble with us humans is, we think we are the center of the universe, so therefore we must be the root cause of all that goes wrong?
and just what is wrong? maybe it ain't wrong?
maybe a world that is 10 degree's warmer isn't wrong?
maybe it is just us that either will adapt to fit what the planet gives us, or expire?
personally i blame it on the sun, afterall it drives the ecosystem here on earth for the most part, unless we want the moon to share a bit of the blame?
but the moon is relatively stagnant, never really changes,
same can't be said for the sun
it gets hotter, we get hotter
it gets cooler, we get cooler
if there are tax grants available there will always be those that will do and say whatever it takes to get a slice of the pie
in the 70's it was the upcoming iceage, recently global warming, now there is strong support building that we are going into an iceage.
hmmm?
so it boils down to the simplist explanation
that being "global normal"
"follow the money"
seems pretty simple to me :)
bob g
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Great article. Global Warming is a Sham and a Scam
Now pollution is of greater concern, and is something mankind can address
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Bob...I'd rather base my "science" on 60's pop music than listen to "scientists" employed by research labs fully funded by exxon. Maybe your scientists down in the states are all pure and pristine and don't sell their ethicsl for research grants, but up here N. of the 49th, I'm not so sure.
Anyway, we up here in Canada just saw a 2 part mini-series titled "Burn Up" which explored (fiction of course ::) ) the politics behind the big oil companies and their attempts to discredit legitimate science. As one of the players said "we are in the business of sowing doubt....) It was very interesting and if even 5% of it were based on fact, we are in for a very scary time.
The basis of the mini series is that people will do a lot for a bunch of money. When you are talking about profits in the billions, they will do unimaginably evil things. I don't doubt it for a minute. My experience with the human race in the last 60 years bears out that if you give people enough money to do something, a lot of them will do most anything, evil or not.
One memorable line was "If this is true (the arabs are really running out of oil) then we are nearing peak oil....next actor " that was yesterday"
Stan
btw...the mini series wasn't so much about global warming, but it was in there, it was really about peak oil and the economic effects on the world economies.
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Stan, who is to say Dr Suzuki and ALGORE are not making a lot of money of their newfound fame... oh wait... they are
I say a pox on all their houses!!!
follow the money on your mini=series, who paid? Big Oil or Big Environment people?
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Stan:
while you and i might agree to disagree on many things, one thing we can agree on
is folks will do things for money, sometimes it doesn't seem to take much money either to get
some folks to do some dastardly things.
as evidenced by the guy who robs a convenience store and kills the store owner for a huge haul
of 20 bucks!
in january we had a returning soldier from iraq get robbed at a bus stop in cincinnati for 8 dollars
and shot in the neck,, he died last month iirc around the 21st.
to think he laid his life on the line in a war that folks either or for or against and came home to see
his girlfriend and to end up dead for 8 dollars seems unbelievable to me.
step that up to millions and billions of dollars and not having to murder anyone and it seems little wonder
why we have all the rage over global whatever, carbon credits, blah blah blah
or our friend algore, i wonder what he gets for a speech? 50grand a pop? more?
all he has to do is spout whatever sells the ticket and collect the cash, and live in a mansion.
nice work if you can get it i guess?
or barbara streisand, for her to go on the road and do a concert she has 15 tractor trailor rigs
4 tour busses for the support crew, a limo and countless other stuff, and a jet iirc, hmmmm
all the while she tells the rest of us meer mortals how we have to live ??
i am not a budist, but personally i would rather listen to one that walks the walk rather than
talk the talk and create more carbon issues and green house gasses on one concert tour than i likely will over
a lifetime.
to be honest with you i don't know what to believe anymore?
about 20 odd years ago, maybe 25
i picked up an old shortwave radio at a garage sale, took it home cleaned it up
(i was into all that as a kid and have a soft spot for anything that uses tube type 80 ) :)
anyway i digress
i got it working and tuned around and came up on radio moscow
good old joe animov was doing his walter cronkite impression of world news
i listened to him intently (knowing full well he was full of crap and spewing propaganda) but
after listening to oratory which was in excellent kings english, well crafted i came to an astounding realization
he sounded just like dan rather, or walter or any of the other numerous news casters of our country
his reasoning was very sound and well laid out, but diametrically opposed to what we are told here. so..
it occured to me that perhaps it is possible that he is telling the truth and my guys are lieing to me?
both sound just as reasonable? both are well supported with a panel of experts and reams of documentation!
but reason tells me they can't both be right! someone is lieing!
the question then becomes
"who is lieing?" and
"how can i be sure my guys aren't the one lieing"
now i know joe was full of shit, but then again "how do i know?" really know?
Joe animov has his reasons for lieing, he is being paid to spew party line crap
and of course it is pretty nieve to think that dan rather, etc also are paid to spew party line
crap as well, maybe not to the same level, but how do i know for sure?
Faith? hmmm i will leave that with God where it belongs and i must.
but faith in what i am told by those that are making bank on telling me stuff?
i dunno, life changed for me that day!
i grew up and decided that i would side with the conservatives, at least they generally weren't for bigger government
and control over every aspect of my life, and
they were extremely under represented in the press and generally had opinions that were contradictory to what the press
was trying to beat into me.
so today, i don't believe in anything but God,
i am somewhat hesitant to believe stuff pushed at me from the press
especially if it just doesn't feel right.
something smells and i don't think it is my feet :)
bob g
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I agree Bob G
My teachers ( Guild not union) told me -Matter can not be created or destroyed! Oil, Iron, Cobolt, Ect may not be mined, extracted or processed from raw materials indefinately but will allways be here on earth to be salvaged and recycled to what humanity needs. At least till we can mine the moon and mars ect. Subject Algore: His arch nemisis Roy Spencer. let us pray for Roy!
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Here's another great article published Wednesday by Weather Channel founder John Coleman:
http://www.kusi.com/weather/colemanscorner/19842304.html
Quinn
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I liked that article. Here's another showing why fuel has climbed so high so fast. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2008-06-03-oil-prices-speculation_N.htm
Only problem with this bubble is as long as the current supply stays the same...so will the high prices. If we start drilling in anwar and the coastal areas then supply will increase and the investors will pour their money elswhere. A couple of years ago the 'hot investment' was real-estate which led to a buying frenzy that caused $3000 lots in my area to sour to over $50000. What busted that bubble was property taxes. When the taxes were adjusted to match the selling prices of the properties, the investors starting unloading them and now they can be purchase for around $5-6000. When the stock market becomes the 'hot investment' again like it was in the 90's, then life will be good. People are constantly investing billions of dollars...where they invest it is what effects us the most. Just the threat of tapping into a large amount of oil could send the investors elsewhere.
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Great post and link Quinn,
It is so refreshing to read truth, instead of innuendos, half lies, and outright lies!!
Global Warming (the man-made kind) is the biggest scam to ever be foisted on mankind, and it amazes me how many fall for the sh** being posted that even our breath is an environmental hazard.
(Although from the other end it might be at times!)
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Who the heck is John coleman and exactly what are his credentials? I fail to see how the thousands of scientists worldwide, from virtually every country including the USA have any vested interest in promoting global warming other than scientific fact. You know, the kind of science that allows all of you to be communicating on this technology. Without these guys and gals, we would all be running around lighting kerosene lamps at night and writing to each other with pencils on paper.
Who here can give me a credible reason a scientist that isn't receiving grant money from either environmentalists (few can afford that kind of money) or big oil companies would be promoting global warming if s/he hadn't done the work, collected the data, and come to the same conclusions that thousands of other scientists have.
What would they have to gain? Notoriety? Sorry, nothing too credible about that. You all love to trash al gore for his jet and big house but you forget, he's not a scientist either. He's just trumpeting what they say because he believes.
I repeat, what would they have to gain? Certainly not the admiration and warm wishes you all seem to feel for them!
Stan
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John coleman is a phd scientist & the man who started "The Weather Channel" & he sounds a lot more sane than Al "Glory" Gore. I loved both articles, not often you get to hear common sense instead of scare tactics on this subject.
Scott R.
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I just read the USA Today article about commodities, the first thing that hits me is that Goerge Soros is involved, he has billions of dollars so im sure he has some in vested in oil. the second is that George Soros is involved, he spends billions attempting to take away my rights of free speech & expression & my right to own firearms, So I don't like him. ( read that "BIG LIBERAL") Third if investment was bad this country would have colapsed long ago, I mean investment, not behind the scenes collusion to scam every one else in the market or world. So if i read the article right they are saying that the price of oil is going up because people are investing in it. but people are investing in it because there is not enough to go around, so where is the crime George is alluding to? If there is a crime it is that our government & the "ecologically minded" people have caused an un natural "shortage" & now they are complaining that people are making money from what they have caused. what irony!
Scott r.
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Whenever I see that something is an "investment" and that billions of dollars are traded every day, I just naturally kind of assume that there's some powerful motivation for shenanigans. I assume you are in a similar situation to me and have been observing my "fellow man" for more than just a few years and can understand how I feel about this.
I've heard that there are people that will kill someone for you for a few thousand dollars, I wonder what someone that invests millions (billions?) would do to protect their investments? Especially when they get together with a bunch of others in the same boat as they are.
Stan
btw...Can't agree with you that the shortage is un-natural, it's gotta run out sometime, logic says it's going to start going downhill soon if not already. Anyway, gotta go and chop some wood, just in case.
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This is a capitalist society, it is based on the buying selling & trading of goods & comodities. it has worked pretty well so far. the places that are not capitalist don't do so well in the world ie the soviet union, cuba, north korea ect. Me i,m an electrician but I don't fault other people for risking their capital (& that is what the comodities market is, a risk) to make more money, that is what makes the "world go round" . If you have info otherwise you should contact the SEC about what you know.
If our own government was not forcing the oil companies to buy oil on the openmarket (where they have to pay the going rate) the price would not be as high.
There are people out there that will kill you for 8 dollars as evidenced every day on the news, some people will kill you just cause they dont like you, the fact that some one has money doesn't mean they are colluding against you or me. Again, if you have info about this you can call & report it, otherwise your just spouting bull.
The shortage is un-natural because the oil is not being allowed to be pumped out of the ground & is not allowed to be transformed into a useable product. Yes it is a finite resource. Yes we need to move to something else (hydrogen, solar, wind, ect) but until something else is viable we should use what we have. what good does it do to "save" the dino fuel for later if we will not be using it in the future?
scott r.
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A couple of things Scott.
I'm am electrician too but a union one.
I can't say I recall anyone in the news getting killed for 8 dollars in Canada.
We don't buy oil here we export it so ,any of us are bitter about having to pay a higher price to suport other ecconomies( prices here could after all be capped and I bet if your country was in that possition there would be a lot of presure to do so ).
Ther Cuban ecconomy is actualy growing at one of the highest rates in Latin America.
And free markets and free flowing capital just got a whole bunch of people in Quebec ( including one texas based oil company ) charged and fined for price fix gasoiline. Prices dropped whats in your money about 40 cents a gallon here later than day......
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I read a post on here about a marine who came home & was killed at a bus stop the killers total take? 8 dollars. not canada, the u.s.
We tried the price fixing thing in the 70's, production went down & imports went up. that won't help.
You should be mad about subsidzing other places like the US when we wont help ourselves.
Cubas economy is growing because they are allowing poeple there to create & own businesses, after nearly 50 years of Fidel's iron fisted rule.
I have'nt seen any thing about price fixing in canada, not saying it didnt happen, but anyone involved should be jailed, not fined. fineing people, who made a million dollars illegaly , half a million dollars in fines doesnt do much to make an incentive to stop such practices.
Oh, & i'm a union electrician too, local 26, washington d.c.
scott r.
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I can;t believe someone would kill a marine back home from war for posketchange these are dark days....
The price fix
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080612/quebec_gasfixing_080611/20080612
Well technicalty Scott I'm a Steel worker and I assume your IBEW so you and Sid need to close ranks andf throw rocks at me for being only slightly less an offence to nature than Clak ( labour association gaining strength here week company controled pocket union ).
You guys actualy have a good union, being a steel woprker or an auto worker as a trades man lumps you into a larger group with significantly different values.
Cuba is actualy a nice place, every trip there I make I see the improvments and the creaping in of free enterprise as well as some good doses of Socialism that only a Canadian could aprove of ( medicare lol ). They have a long way to go but until you see it and compare the place the say Mexico you realy can't compare he two places. For one thing in Cuba they want your money and treat you good so you come back in Mexico they cut off your fingers to steal your rings or lock you up unless you pay the bribe
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for $8.00 they would kill you twice in Atlanta/that is the reason most of us are a well protected (armed) group///about 30 years ago I remember a person killed over 1 cent/ it use to be unlawful to pump your own gas/ a person got in an argument with the person pumping the gas about what to pay because he stopped the pump between cents..the are still feeding the winner of the argument/he has a few more years to go on the life part of the sentence/
in 2 week it will be time for the gathering of the red necks in Denton n.c.// as usual expect a lot of engines ,tractors and heat/feel free to drop by and talk diesel///sid
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Sounds like I should have read sid's post earlier as i just came back from picking up a couple of 15kw ST heads in NC, I could have waited a week & made a more enjoyable trip out of it, red necks, tractors & heat are three of my favorite things !
scott r.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Baul-krie8
might be good for a couple of laughs........depending on where your sense of humor lays ;D
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HA
Really Inconvenient Truths is good too !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=548tzMJjtro&feature=related
Funny how "pro-choice" and "environmentalist" liberals never talk about that. Or how about this: the Live Earth concert to "save the planet" released more CO2 into the atmosphere than a fleet of 2,000 Humvees emit in a year?