Lister Engine Forum

Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: rcavictim on April 30, 2008, 05:44:11 PM

Title: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on April 30, 2008, 05:44:11 PM
I may have access to a couple hundred gallons or more of hydraulic oil.  If this makes a good fuel for a small diesel I will persue it.  Anyone have anything to report?
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: mike90045 on April 30, 2008, 09:04:40 PM
Sometimes, (in aircraft) it's non-flammable.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: listeroidsusa1 on May 01, 2008, 03:20:37 AM
Even for non aviation use most hydraulic oils have anti-flash additives to make it safer for use around hot machinery. I have used it before but there is a great variety of formulations available and not all of them are suitable for fuel. I'd take a small sample and using a metal can, propane torch, and a thermometer, perform a flash test for compatibility. The flash point is where the oil is hot enough to have vapor coming off that can be ignited but not so hot that the container continues to burn. Record the temperature and test some known fuels to see if this is in the ballpark. Try veggie oil, diesel, motor oil, ect.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on May 01, 2008, 04:08:24 AM
I am supposed to be getting a 5 gallon pail sample delivered in the next day or two.  I thought I might just try some in my JD 175A plant.  I can look for load point in watts electrical output to make black smoke and exhaust temperature compared to diesel fuel for example.

The idea of determining a rough flash point as you suggest is a good one.

I have some new VoltEsso-35 transformer oil and find it burns great straight as a engine fuel. I understand that this oil has some flash preventing additives as well.  I have been using this stuff primarily as hydraulic oil for my wheeled Hough loader.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Doug on May 01, 2008, 10:04:58 PM
Do you know what that oil is worth new?

I don't know what is in transformer oil but I can tell you it doesn't like water and VoltEsso seems to cause my hands to dry and crack faster than any other oil.

It may have some flame retardants in it but I wouldn't know for sure.

Its realy good for cleaning your tools........
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on May 02, 2008, 12:29:49 AM
Do you know what that oil is worth new?

I don't know what is in transformer oil but I can tell you it doesn't like water and VoltEsso seems to cause my hands to dry and crack faster than any other oil.

It may have some flame retardants in it but I wouldn't know for sure.

Its realy good for cleaning your tools........


I heard somewhere it was about $1,000 for a 205 litre drum.  When you have it sitting at hand and you need oil and you have no money, hydraulic oil costs $45 for a 20 litre pail, diesel costs.... well too much, and you need generator fuel, what are you gonna use?  I had 200 gals of this.  I am now down to about 75 gallons left.  I've actually been trying hard not to burn it all or rustproof my farm with it from my leaking loader.

If I get a hold of real hydraulic oil, I'll use that in my loader.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Doug on May 02, 2008, 01:40:32 AM
Gut feeling is its much more highly refined than regular oil.

When it does burn its probably clean.
The inside of your engine is probably realy clean.
Teh fuel system probably is loving it........
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: vt woodchuck on May 02, 2008, 03:51:42 PM
Off subject reguarding transformer oil.
Years ago I hauled several tanker loads of transformer oil used in motor capacitors and large transformers used at power plants and sub-stations. This stuff had all kinds of warning labels reguarding PCB's and other nasty chemicals. Maybe they have changed the formula since then. Be careful handling or breathing the unburnt as well as burnt vapors.
Mike
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on May 02, 2008, 10:16:46 PM
Off subject reguarding transformer oil.
Years ago I hauled several tanker loads of transformer oil used in motor capacitors and large transformers used at power plants and sub-stations. This stuff had all kinds of warning labels reguarding PCB's and other nasty chemicals. Maybe they have changed the formula since then. Be careful handling or breathing the unburnt as well as burnt vapors.
Mike

Polychlorinated biphenyl or PCB's are an additive that they USED TO put into insulating oil in capacitors and transformers, as well as the potting tar found in neon sign xfmers and other electrical gear. It was a fire retardant.  It was outlawed in the 1980's or thereabouts because it was perceived as a health risk.  It gets into the biosphere and lasts virtually forever as it does not break down naturally.  I am convinced that the only practical hazard associated with PCB's is if the government finds out you have them.  Then you get bad effects on your personal well being and mental health.  >:(

The Voltesso-35 which I have is modern stuff from new factory sealed plastic drums and contains no PCB's. 

More on this subject here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: vt woodchuck on May 02, 2008, 10:33:38 PM
Thanks for the update on transformer oil.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Doug on May 08, 2008, 03:39:11 AM
As soon as you put Clorine into anything that will potentialy be burnered or heated someday by accident or intent you create Dioxin.

PCBs do more than just retard fires the actualy fortify the oil they are added too improving its stability and resistance to break down from heat.

They were invented in the 40's at a time when like Freon people never considered the dosposal needs.

PCBs are fat soluable. That means if you eat them they bond with the fats and oils in your body and your liver has to try and break them down and destroy them. Since your liver was never intended to deal with them there is some debate as too how much damage they can to and what effects they have in small doses. PCBs concentrate in mothers milk and is passed onto babies and collects in the fat of every animal all the way up the food chain...

Lots of guys I work with have strange cancers. Explain to me why 1 in 10 electricians where I work have a Colostomy bag and lost of missing gutty works? I believe it has alot to do with PCBs and Asbestos.

Burning them in anything less than a specificaly designed incinerator will create toxins 1000 times worse than PCBs alone so do becareful and if you have or suspect you own some PCB contaminated equipemnt at home (TVs, old ballats in lights made before 1970 ect ) you may want to call the toxic taxi and ask them if they will pick it up for proper disposal.

I've suited up and pumps thousands of gallons of Askeral.
Good ridence,we realy don't need them anymore.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: bergfire on May 28, 2009, 05:50:51 PM
I have watched the utility companies remove old PCB filled transformers, they empty the old one into three or four other transformers and fill them all back up with oil.  Next they take a sample from all the transformers.  If the PCB is dilluted enough the oil from all the tranformers goes into a fuel tank.  PCB's go from hazardous waste to fuel oil.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Dail R H on May 29, 2009, 12:36:44 AM
   To RCAVICTIM,totaly off topic---------After many years experience with them ,my sincere condolances on owning a Hough loader. The only thing worse than owning a Hough is owning two
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rl71459 on May 29, 2009, 02:17:08 AM
RCA

My oil supply is made up of approx 50% Industrial Hyd Oil. I have had no noted problems with it. I run it in my Car and Generator.
The car is a 1987 mbz 190d 2.5 turbo diesel. The Gen is a Thermoking, Isuzu, C201 Engine coupled to a ST12 head. in the winter I
Thin it with 5% RUG. I Drive the car every day. The Gen gets used for outages. My oil is mixed with Lube Oil and Grinding Oil.
I have had the car for about a year. All of the oil is Mobil Petroleum Based oil.

Rob
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Irish Artist on August 26, 2009, 03:50:29 PM
Hey Rcavictim,

Did you ever do a flash test on Hydraulic oil?

I just might have access to a never ending supply of it.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on August 26, 2009, 06:50:47 PM
Hey Rcavictim,

Did you ever do a flash test on Hydraulic oil?

I just might have access to a never ending supply of it.

As for an actual flash test, I never did get a round tuit.  :(  I ended up with two hundred gallons of the stuff though.  It is about the vicosity of #30 strraight motor oil and has a sulfur smell to it.  This must be an EP additive to help reduce gearbox wear wherever this oil was suppossed to be used.  Either that or some differential gear lube oil got mixed with thin hydraulic oil and that is what I got.  Whatever it is, it does not burn very well in the diesel engine and makes very stinky, smoky exhaust.  I plan to use it as hydraulic oil in my loader, etc.

This is not to say that the hydraulic oil that you have access to won't make good diesel fuel.  Get some and try it!
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: apogee_man on August 26, 2009, 07:28:44 PM
RCA,

Why not cut it with a bit of unleaded gasoline?

You might be surprised how well it works.

5 - 10% max should do it I would think.

Might be worth a shot...

Steve
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on August 28, 2009, 04:21:20 AM
RCA,

Why not cut it with a bit of unleaded gasoline?

You might be surprised how well it works.

5 - 10% max should do it I would think.

Might be worth a shot...

Steve

Well I guess the experiment is worthwhile.  That said I have been trying not to add any RUG or anything else to my indoor stored and used fuel because of the fire hazard created when gasoline is introduced, even in small quantities.  Suddenly there is vapor pressure in the tanks and explosive vapors.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Irish Artist on August 29, 2009, 05:52:15 AM
This might be a stupid question, but I'm still going to ask it.

As two different fuel types that are mixed together sit for a while, won't they separate? Isn't one heavier than the other, hence the different grade and octane?

Therefore, if you blend your fuel and don't shake it up before running, especially if you don't run you system on a regular basis aren't you going to be burning one part and then another, that could get messy in my mind anyway.

Hey, I was taught to always shake the can of gas/oil mix before I poured it in the chainsaw.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Murph'
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rl71459 on August 30, 2009, 02:21:38 AM
RCA, My Genset is located in my detached garage. The small percentage of RUG mixed in my fuel blend concerns me much less than
The straight Rug in the 5 gal gas cans I have in the garage, not to mention the 35 gallons in the tank of my truck. My push mower
holds more RUG than I use in a full tank of fuel in my car or my gen. My garage has typical roof and eve vents.

That said... I have no idea of your arrangement, so I am not suggesting that you (or anyone) take any risk's that may indanger anyone.

Murph, I have always shaken my premix also... And I share the seperation concern! So far... I have not experianced anything that
would indicate a problem. or I have not detected it yet!

Rob
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: rcavictim on August 30, 2009, 04:37:25 AM
RCA, My Genset is located in my detached garage. The small percentage of RUG mixed in my fuel blend concerns me much less than
The straight Rug in the 5 gal gas cans I have in the garage, not to mention the 35 gallons in the tank of my truck. My push mower
holds more RUG than I use in a full tank of fuel in my car or my gen. My garage has typical roof and eve vents.

That said... I have no idea of your arrangement, so I am not suggesting that you (or anyone) take any risk's that may indanger anyone.

Murph, I have always shaken my premix also... And I share the seperation concern! So far... I have not experianced anything that
would indicate a problem. or I have not detected it yet!

Rob

Rob,

My diesel gensets and the fuel cache are both stored indoors in my workshop building which is worth as much as my house with all the tools and stuff accounted for.  I cannot afford a fire out there.  I'm not uncomfortable having a 5 gallon jerry can full of gasoline in the building, but I don't keep it anywhere near possible sources of heat or sparks.  My VW plant shares a small room in close proximity to a propane gas furnace.
It only gets straight diesel or diesel mixed with heavier oils for fuel.  I am planning a separate cinder block room for all the generators as soon as I can afford the materials.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: buickanddeere on July 29, 2010, 04:46:57 AM
I have watched the utility companies remove old PCB filled transformers, they empty the old one into three or four other transformers and fill them all back up with oil. Next they take a sample from all the transformers. If the PCB is dilluted enough the oil from all the tranformers goes into a fuel tank. PCB's go from hazardous waste to fuel oil.

  Transformer oil is tested in parts per million of PCB's. Dilution that you described would gain nothing. 
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: bear on May 29, 2011, 01:40:04 PM
greetings i run a changfa 195 14hrs/day 7days on a blend of hyd/deisel 30%hyd 70%deisel no problems.injecter needs cleaning ones a month.(wire brush) not smoke cheap to run bear
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: bergfire on July 26, 2012, 12:09:27 AM
I have run gen sets that were scheduled for overhauls on straight used motor oil.  It works pretty good in hot weather, or you treat it like those vegetable oil burners and heat the fuel lines.  It does make more smoke and can smell bad.  Cutting it with cold weather diesel also helps.
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: millman56 on July 26, 2012, 10:22:21 PM
This might be a stupid question, but I'm still going to ask it.

As two different fuel types that are mixed together sit for a while, won't they separate? Isn't one heavier than the other, hence the different grade and octane?

Therefore, if you blend your fuel and don't shake it up before running, especially if you don't run you system on a regular basis aren't you going to be burning one part and then another, that could get messy in my mind anyway.

Hey, I was taught to always shake the can of gas/oil mix before I poured it in the chainsaw.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Murph,       Am no chemist but  as far as I know two grades of petroleum distillates mixed ie petrol and oil, dont seperate out but what happens is that if vented to atmosphere the higher volatile grade evaporates at a quicker rate than the lower volatile grade,  effectively increasing the oil to petrol ratio in the mixture.   

Mark.

Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: Sfene on July 27, 2012, 02:02:25 AM
Xfmr oil probably ok as fuel, but it has no lubricant properties. Id be concerned about injector wear over time.

Sfene
Title: Re: Hydraulic oil as fuel - anyone using it?
Post by: buickanddeere on March 30, 2013, 05:36:11 PM
  Hydrualic oil typically has a lower anti wear content than engine lube oil........................ How large or small your ash is important.