Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Other Fuels => Topic started by: xyzer on April 27, 2008, 05:46:49 AM
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Instead of hauling my used motor oil, auto trans fluid and hydraulic fluid to the proper disposal site I was wondering if there is a safe ratio of the mentioned oils I can mix to my Kubota tractor and late model dodge diesel without worrying about doing any damage. What kind of preparation for it would be required? What should I watch for? I’m not to worried about my “Listeroid” I can fix any problems it has easily.
Thanks
Dave
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xyzer, I can't answer your question, but I am interested in the answer. My little 195 Changfa is really quite tough and this would be a much better way of disposing of the used oils. If used in reasonably smaller quantities and mixed with diesel, could it be safe to use the "unpurified" excess oils around the ranch. I've easily used some acquired new oils of various descriptions already.
I've been reading quite a bit on this site, searching for the easiest way to "re-refine" the used oils. I just a bit mystified by all this.
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Jens
Appricate the feedback. Backroad, sounds like you have the same situation. I guess to be a bit more specific I probably aquire at the most 30 gallons of used whatever a year and if I added 2 quarts/tank (30 gal) untreated I would keep up with what I generate. Jens, Like you I'm not to worried about the mechanical part of the cummins it is the injection system and cat that worry me . Do you think a couple of quarts would bother it/tank? Yes I still have the warrenty issue but 2quarts/tank would be hard to nail ;D. I already started using a quart / tank in my Kubota tractor with no obvious problems, but it's a much simpler system.
Dave
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I run used motor oil in my engines. Here is how I look at it. Fuel here is $4.15 a gallon. UMO is free. At the worst case scenario an injector and injection pump is under $75. If I run over 15 gallons I'm money ahead. (and I've run WAY more than 15 gallons so far with no problems!) My engines run just fine on 100% motor oil in the summer but I cut it 50/50 in the winter. I don't do anything special to the engine, the fuel is not preheated, (I'm going to build a water heated fuel heater though) and I've been running since 2004. I do distill my oil though so it doesn't have the impurities in it.
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I run used motor oil in my engines. Here is how I look at it. Fuel here is $4.15 a gallon. UMO is free. At the worst case scenario an injector and injection pump is under $75. If I run over 15 gallons I'm money ahead. (and I've run WAY more than 15 gallons so far with no problems!) My engines run just fine on 100% motor oil in the summer but I cut it 50/50 in the winter. I don't do anything special to the engine, the fuel is not preheated, (I'm going to build a water heated fuel heater though) and I've been running since 2004. I do distill my oil though so it doesn't have the impurities in it.
Geeze. Straight distilled WMO without injector heat? How often do you have to de-carbon the engine with a head removal? Do you get smoky exhaust? What about after a cold start until it warms up to operating temp?
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This engine has never had the head off. It is a 2004 GM-90 6/1. It only has a half dozen puffs of smoke when cold and none after that. The running characteristics of the oil are indistinguishable from running on diesel. I do run some Sea Foam through it every 10 tanks or so. Water injection also helps with the carbon. I suspect that the main reason it doesn't carbon up badly is that the oil is distilled. I only get 50%-75% recovery from WMO. If you run straight filtered motor oil the engine slobbers. With the distilled oil the heavy fractions, carbon, and dirt form the bottoms of the process and those I either burn in a modified wood stove in the winter or dispose of them at the collection station. Oil from cars has some gas and/or diesel dilution. This oil runs well in the engine. I run the still at a temperature that recovers the lighter fractions. A fellow came by a couple of weeks ago and just HAD to have the still, so I sold it, knowing full well that I can build a better one. That one had a 5 gallon capacity. The new one I'm building will be a continuous distiller running on full automatic with a PLC. A still can also be built that is wood fired but I like the electric version with its accurate thermocouple temperature control. I heat the oil to around 150 degrees and let it sit a couple of hours. Any water collects on the bottom and is blown off before the distillation process starts. Once the water is drained the temp is increased to the flash point of the particular oil and once the vacuum is turned on the oil then boils and vaporizes. Like steam, the oil vapor is pushed through the bubbler caps and collection tray, and through the condenser where it is condensed back into liquid and collected in the holding tank. The variables of feed stock, temperature, process rate, and vacuum determine the grade of the final product.
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I was thinking about making a vacuum still as well. The system I come up with has the condenser and collection tank at vacuum. How do you come up with a continuous process? Do you evacuate an outboard storage tank to receive the collected oil in the condenser output tank when it gets near full, then let this outside oil reserve up to atmosphere to be placed in any normal storage tanks you wish?
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Today is your lucky Day .....
Before it hits Ebay I have a Modicon micro 612, included for you Mike are some RTDs and transmitters.
Pm me if interested also have a cable and programing software I can bundle " Modsoft light "
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Multiple collection trays are used at different heights in a commercial fractioning tower for the different fractions. I only use one for simplicity since on a smaller scale I can vary the temperature and vacuum to get what I want from it. The tray collects liquid and the bubbler caps are just that, short stubs of pipe with caps similar to a bottle cap sitting on top of them. As the vapor rises it lifts the caps slightly and bubbles up through the shallow tray of liquid. The tray is set up so that once the vapor (oil) is above the level of the tray it is held there so that it can't run back down into the sump for reheating. I'm using a 100 lb propane bottle as a feed tank. It has a nipple welded in near the bottom for a chromolox heating element. (A water heater element would also do) I welded in a 1" bung in the bottom for a way to charge the cylinder and to blow off the crud that accumulates. A thermocouple well is also added at the heater level. Had an old boiler water gage column and glass water level tube in the junk room so I'll use it to check my fluid level in the main tank. I've got an electronic Kiln controller coming from Ebay. These are nice and have digital readouts of both set point and process temperature. They come with a type K thermocouple. Mine was $33 on ebay. I removed the fill valve at the top of the cylinder and screwed my vapor/liquid separator tank into it. From the separator tank the vapor/liquid goes through an automotive oil cooler w/fan. The condenser drains into a smaller propane tank. The vacuum source is connected to the smaller tank, which aids in pulling the vapor through the bubbler and condenser. Variable vacuum and temperature controls the weight of the final product.
The vacuum mist filter is made with a piece of 3" hydraulic tubing. Two fittings are placed in the side at the midpoint. One tube is bent to go to the bottom of the 3" can. ( this is where the incoming mist is connected) The second fitting is a plain bung and it drains the oil back to the bottom of the smaller propane cylinder once the oil level in the separator is attained. The vacuum pump is connected to a third fitting at the top of the separator. The mist from the top of the smaller tank is drawn into the separator through the first fitting (with a tube extending to the bottom of the 3" separator) where it bubbles through the oil in the separator, greatly reducing the free mist. As the separator collects oil it drains anything above the second midpoint fitting back to the smaller tank. Relatively clean vacuum and minor particles are then drawn into the vacuum pump and the excess trace oil is handled by the vacuum pump's factory separator.
Thanks for the offer of a plc Doug, but I've already got a stack of Allen Bradley Bricks and Nano's. I've also got a few Koyo PLCs from Automation Direct.
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Several people have been asking me about this process. Here is a link that will explain it in detail.
http://books.google.com/books?id=b5qdqsVULM8C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=boiling+temp+of+oil&source=web&ots=4NUwRF_sAG&sig=yOIu42RUoOiI-IOZZ0mVF2oro5o&hl=en#PPA54,M1
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Of particular interest is figure 4.3 of the preceding link.
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Aww, but that link is just a "preview" of the book, and it's missing most of the good stuff, including fig 4.3
What of it is available online certainly looks interesting. Is it worth plunking down $60 for the book?
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Here is a link I found that is a good read (with pictures!) as an over view of the process:
http://www.oilrecycling.gov.au/what-happens.html
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No comments? This is a really good read on refining oil for "dummies".
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Gee...tanks! ;D ;D ;D
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Its realy quiet now I hear the rattle of hammers and zip of welders making presure vessels tonight.......
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Yes, a good read. Thanks Tom.
I'd sure like to find something that goes into just a bit more detail though...
I'm still trying to decide if "Petroleum Refining in Non-Technical Language" is worth $60. It seems to have gotten kind of lukewarm reviews.
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Hi Steve (Macgyver)
Look again, the diagram 4.3 is there its on page 43 in the chapter on vacuum flashing.
also here is a link to abe.com for a used copy of that for $38.00
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=Petroleum+refining+for+the+non-technical+person&x=54&y=9
I for one think this oil distillation is very viable route but the info on small scale operations is almost nill
should have paid more attention in chemistry class
sometimes at night I wake up and think I hear my mig welder and plasma cutter calling to me.
miwyl Jkson 6/1
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Hi Steve (Macgyver)
Look again, the diagram 4.3 is there its on page 43 in the chapter on vacuum flashing.
Hmmm. That's interesting. If I view the link in Firefox (my default) then page 43 is *not* available to me. There's just a box that says "Pages 19-52 are not part of this book review."
However, if I view it in IE (which I detest) then I get a different selection of viewable pages, and page 43 (and the diagram) ARE accessible.
Thanks!
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Variable vacuum and temperature controls the weight of the final product.
Can you tell us approximately what range of temperature you typically run with your still?
And what pressure you run at?
Just looking for some ball park figures (and thinking about what materials I have on hand) :)
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I started building my new unit this past weekend. I'm using a 100 lb propane cylinder and a grill tank for a catch tank. I ran my other one between 450 and 600 degrees depending upon how heavy a weight of oil I wanted. There is no pressure. I run all the vacuum my pump will pump. Small changes in vacuum make a big difference in the oil's boiling point. This unit has a 100 lb propane cylinder for a main dirty oil tank, a modine hot water furnace coil with a fan as a condenser, and a 20 lb grill tank for the finished oil to run into. I don't need such big tanks since the PLC will control the fluid levels, heat, vacuum, purge pressure, and the solenoid valves on the 2 tanks. I scored 500 gallons of pretty clean oil today at a local garage. The oil disposal company charges him $300 to dispose of it otherwise. I'd like to get several thousand gallons ahead for the tractor, dozers, and heat this coming winter.
WARNING
BTW, if you decide to build one of these by all means use a NEW cylinder. I had a used 100 lb cylinder that I emptied, filled with water, emptied, and held a 29" vacuum on for 3 weeks. I cut a hole in the side with a holesaw for the heating element. When I waved a propane torch over the hole to check for safety the darn thing still exploded and shot flames 50 feet into the air. It didn't damage anything but my hearing. It DID scare the hell out of me! Don't try this with used cylinders, it just isn't worth it. Besides, a new cylinder won't have the propane "stink".
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I started building my new unit this past weekend. I'm using a 100 lb propane cylinder and a grill tank for a catch tank. I ran my other one between 450 and 600 degrees depending upon how heavy a weight of oil I wanted. There is no pressure. I run all the vacuum my pump will pump. Small changes in vacuum make a big difference in the oil's boiling point.
Ahhh, thanks!
Wow. 450-600 degrees is still pretty warm. I expected that under vacuum the boiling point might be lower than that.
When I asked what pressure you ran at, I did expect the answer to be less than atmospheric....
To put the question another way... Any idea how hard of a vacuum you get with your pump in actual use?
What type of pump do you use? Any idea what the CFM rating is?
Thanks very much for sharing your experience. It's very interesting and I think I see a small oil still in my future... ;D
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Heads up Mike your entering cracking range at the upper end of those temps. I don't know if the tars will vapourize but if they get into your fuel they will gum an glog everything
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Doug, tars and other problems have not arisen in the past 2 years I've been doing this. If the temps were 600C , yes there might be a problem but we use F, not C scales for out temperatures.
My new unit is coming along nicely. The main tank is finished and I'm working on the catch tanks and base. My digital temperature controller has arrived so I'm ready to start construction of my control panel. My unit is a 2 fraction unit. It'll catch regular oils at the tank midpoint and the lighter vapors will be condensed from the outlet at the top of the tank. I cut the 100 lb propane tank in half on my bandsaw and fabricated a bubbler tray at the midpoint. The downcomers on the tray allow 4.2 gallons to be processed at a cycle. Since a 20 lb grill tank holds a little more than 4.5 gallons it was the determining factor in the design capacity. Float switches will signal the plc as to when a catch tank purge is necessary. At that point the still's drawdown valve is closed and air pressure is applied to blow the contents through a check valve to a 500 gallon holding tank. It will have 4 tanks outside, a main input dirty oil tank, a lube oil tank, light fraction tank, and a bottoms tank.
My unit is a bit smaller and runs at a higher temperature but here is a link to a commercial unit using the same principles, just on a larger scale.
http://wastechengineering.com/products/vacuum_distillation_systems.html?OVRAW=Distillation&OVKEY=distillation&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=3947003511&OVKWID=8719851011
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I took some photos as I was building the main tank. I'll probably post them on photobucket when I get them downloaded. My saw is a 1917 model Marvel roll in saw. Although it is old it is also the straightest cutting saw I've ever used. I routinely cut my pulley blanks with it and in most cases a .010 pass on the lathe cleans them up and removes all of the saw marks. Although old, it is a fantastic running machine. It'll cut a 20" x 20" block and a 100 lb propane cylinder is only 15" diameter. I've only used one bi-metal blade in 2 years and that blade has cut literally thousands of parts while holding close tolerances. I finally killed that blade attempting to cut a customer's part. It turned out to be a high chrome induction hardened shaft that even a file or carbide wouldn't touch. So much for a $80 blade.......
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Apparently I'm not the only one doing this. Check out the report from the Department of Energy way back in 1983.
http://www.p2pays.org/ref%5C05/04815.pdf
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Hello from the UK.
Fascinating topic. I know its nearly two years old now but I hope you are still doing it?
I have read the posts and links several times and still trying to put it all together in my head. Some things Im not sure about.
As the oil is under vacuum, what is the actual temperature the oil is heated to? Presumably 600f would be the start of actual atmospheric boiling point.
The bubble caps; are they crown bottle caps or screw caps and what stops them falling off when all is assembled and vacuum is activated? Is the gas bottle welded closed after the trays are fitted?
Any photos and what is a grill tank and a PLC?
Many thanks in advance, Mark
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Hello from the UK.
Fascinating topic. I know its nearly two years old now but I hope you are still doing it?
I have read the posts and links several times and still trying to put it all together in my head. Some things Im not sure about.
As the oil is under vacuum, what is the actual temperature the oil is heated to? Presumably 600f would be the start of actual atmospheric boiling point.
The bubble caps; are they crown bottle caps or screw caps and what stops them falling off when all is assembled and vacuum is activated? Is the gas bottle welded closed after the trays are fitted?
Any photos and what is a grill tank and a PLC?
Many thanks in advance, Mark
Ah, a grill tank is often called a calor gas tank in the UK. Small refillable liquid gas tank used for camping stoves and barbeques. Only 4.5kg over here, are the US ones larger?
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Ah, a grill tank is often called a calor gas tank in the UK. Small refillable liquid gas tank used for camping stoves and barbeques. Only 4.5kg over here, are the US ones larger?
(http://ottawa.aderk.ca/pictures/-BBQ-Grill--Propane-Tank1-ottawa-tt2br.jpg)
Small BBQ Grill & tank. Tank is about 4 US gallons of propane, not sure of the weight of fuel.
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Ah, a grill tank is often called a calor gas tank in the UK. Small refillable liquid gas tank used for camping stoves and barbeques. Only 4.5kg over here, are the US ones larger?
(http://ottawa.aderk.ca/pictures/-BBQ-Grill--Propane-Tank1-ottawa-tt2br.jpg)
Small BBQ Grill & tank. Tank is about 4 US gallons of propane, not sure of the weight of fuel.
Thanks for posting that Mike. It looks about the same size as the smallest UK tank (4.5kg-10lbs) but listeroidsusa1 mentions a 20lbs catch tank so that would be a 9kg. The next size up for us is the 13kg.
Hopefully listeroidsusa1 will come back with the fine detail.
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Pictured under that BBQ is what I would consider a 20Lb propane tank...
Over here the tanks are filled by weight. One of those tanks takes 20Lbs in propane....
edit:
tank measures roughly 39 1/2" around the outside and 14" to the BOTTOM of the valve (this would be to the top of the tank not including valve or protective handle but sitting on it's stand)