Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Motor Oil => Topic started by: Gregmm on October 25, 2005, 04:28:09 PM
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Can someone tell me the most economical way to clean waste motor oil to use in lister clones
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I would be interested in the emissions of waste oil. Does anyone have a feel for that? Is it really stinky?
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Check out the JourneyToForever.org site, especially http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/svobib.html
They have a bunch of stuff on biofuels, and suchlike. There are several links throughout this large site that touch on emissions. As I recall, nitrogen oxides are somewhat higher, but carbon monoxide is lower than with diesel oil. Overall, veggie oil is cleaner burning than diesel. However many engines develop excessive carbon in the combustion chamber while running on alternative fuels. Fortunately you bought the right engine because Listeroids are indirect injection engines and the slow speed leaves plenty of time for combustion. I surf there because I'm interested in the biodiesel conversion process.
Check out also http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
Quinn
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Hi guys, I sure am glad I found this forum.
Anyway, I live close to Bob (rocketboy aircraft products) and get to experiment with fuels and such for his Lister clone. I provided Bob with an Alfa Laval "Emmie" centrifugal filter, AND well over 1000 gallons of free waste jet fuel. Here is what I have learned so far.
The Alfa Laval centrifugal filter uses a water seal and will effectivly remove water from fuel. However the water seal is blown out by the thick waste motor oil. So diluting it with 50% jet fuel (kerosene) allows it to pass through the filter. However I am not sure the Alfa Laval filter is capable of removing all the fine particulates. The oil is still quite black, even after circulating for a while. I think a better way may be the old farmer method. In any case, the diluted waste oil seems to run just fine in the Lister. I do not notice any unusual smell in the exhaust. However we did try a large concentration of synthetic jet engine oil (exxon 2380) in Bob's Suzuki Samuri diesel (VW Rabbit diesel engine). and it smelled like a pile driver. That smelled so bad that people would not drive behind the Suzuki. However it must be said that Rabbit diesel engines (non turbo) smoke heavily under load and they do emit a strong smell on diesel. The addition of the Exxon 2380 oil just made it worse.
Anyway, here is my plan to clean the waste motor oil I have.
1) place the oil in a sealed black drum
2) Place the drum in the sun
3) let the larger particulates settle for months and months
4) use a cotton or hemp rope to siphon the oil out of the drum and into a gallon milk container or similar, the oil will be quite clean as cotton filters well.
5) use the contaminated rope to kill termites on your fence posts, by wrapping it around the fence post.
6) dilute the oil 50% and use a pump and force the oil through a Motor Guard .01 micron filter.
Should be very clean oil with no particulates.
Chris
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disregard. Didn't see the date.
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So what about mixing waste oil and Waste Veg oil, could that be a good cheap source of fuel?
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Andrew,
Sure. Veggie or mineral oils share the same basic structure. They'll mix fine. In fact, if you mix veggie with any mineral oil eg. dizzle, crankcase oil, even paint thinner/kerosene, it'll have less tendency to gel in the fuel lines. Living where you do, you already know about how you're going to have to find a way to heat your veggie oil to lower its viscosity so that it will flow, pump and spray properly.
Merry Christmas to you and all the good folks on the 'roid board! ;D!
Quinn
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On a similar note...
Cummins authorizes up to 5% waste engine oil to be mixed with diesel fuel and then burned in the engine with no ill effects. Cummins obtained a ruling from the EPA agreeing it was better to burn this waste product then to dispose of it using traditional methods.
RB
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Yes;
The CUMMINS Century system constantly meters a small amount of the crankcase oil into the fuel stream, then automatically adds make up oil to the crankcase. This extends the oil change interval way out there. You still have to change filters on schedule, but the oil stays sweet for a long time.
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Since I bolted up a Caterpillar two micron fuel filter, I pour a gallon of waste oil in to my Duramax every other tank of fuel or so. I figure each gallon replaces that much diesel fuel that I don't have to buy. I paid for it, I figure I might as well get as much use as I can from that oil. Who knew that waste oil was worth 2.49 a gallon? ::)
So about 1 gallon of oil to a 34 gallon fuel tank. No ill affects as of yet. The truck only has 46K miles on it though. I also run bypass filtration on it, and pull oil samples every 5K miles, just because I'm a maintanance nazi. I like less than a 5% mix. I wouldn't want to ever run more than 10 or 20% waste oil, and would definately not want to run that much all the time. Additive packeges in the oil turn to ash during combustion. As long as those levels are minimal, the ash can disperse, and that's why I don't run a higher concentration of it, or constantly. Just a single injector on a V8 Duramax is about $500. I wouldn't want to know what a compleate upper end overhaul would cost. So I don't exactly want to try too much more experimentation.
The last gallon I poured in was probably 50% waste oil, and 50% old stale gasoline. Do I Filter it? That's what the 2 micron fuel filter on the Duramax is for! Anything it misses gets caught by the stock 10 micron filter ;D I'm not worried aobut particles, I'm concerned with disolved metals in the additive package that turn to ash during combustion. They can't be filtered out.
I do pour it though a "filter funnel" that has probably a 40-80 micron screen. It catches sand, and chunks that would otherwise possibly clog my fuel pickup in the tank.
So, I pour it in to the fuel tank of my Duramax, but dilute it greatly. Is anyone brave enough to burn it in their Listers with no dilution at all? A Cat 2 micron filter would get it clean, and one could jerk the head off after a few hours of operation to check things over for deposits.
Worst case, a new piston, rings, injector, and valves for a lister wouldn't be all the expensive, would they?
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What did you use for the filter head on your CAT2?
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I like it!
New lube oil formulation is always taking place. If you are burning the oil that you bought (as opposed to burning waste oil you have picked up for free from others), try to buy the latest low ash oil. The newest oils have addative packages designed to minimise damage to catalytic converters, yet also superior wear resistance and extended oil change intervals (yeah, right) Anyway, it's a thought. For Example: Chevron DELO 400 oil is not supposed to be used in 2 stroke Detroit Diesels because of the high ash content. Best to use DELO 100 or DELO RPM. The high ash content is bad for cylinder liners, pistons and rings in a ported 2 stroke, but fine in a 4 stroke. (go figure)
The new ultra low sulfur diesel fuel may increase wear to injector components (unless the oil company added a lubricant, European oil companies add 1 - 3% biodiesel) so bleeding in a little motor oil might be a good thing?
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I have come up with a new way to do a fairly good job filtering used motor oil. I siphon it through a motorguard filter. It is quite slow but it works!
Remember the motorguard is a submicron filter with toilet paper used as the filtering media. The spec is supposedly 0.01 micron. I purchased mine online from a auto paint and body shop that has them on sale for around 48 bucks.
Chris
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Which supplier? I couldn't find one for less than $58.
Scott E
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Cujet,
I've come to the same conclusion re filtering waste engine oil. Yesterday I bought a Frantz
setup on eBay. Similar to MotorGuard in the use of TP but the thing I stumbled across is a
demonstator kit... with a motor and pump I hope to easily suck oil from one tank and output into
a clean one. I put a pic in my photo album...
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/frantz1.jpg
I was speaking to Ralph Wood about MotorGuards and he reckoned a small one
should be good for a quart a minute and maybe 2 if the oil is warm. I'm assuming the
Frantz will be similar.
Rob
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I used to be a factory rep for Motorguard for this application:
http://www.lesker.com/newweb/Traps_and_Filters/OilFiltration/Motorguard.cfm?CFID=770798&CFTOKEN=61408253§ion=motorguard&init=skip
Don't feint when you see the price. I sold 13 of these in 1 sales call one time.
Some suggestions, I've never done this app before but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. First filter your oil through the finest screen available. Then maybe a 5 micron string wound water filter would be nice and then hit the Motorguard filter. You should place a pressure gage before the Motor guard filter and monitor the pressure. If you see a sudden drop you've likely blown a hole between the layers of TP and need to replace the filter. The cellulose in the TP will absorb moisture until it turns to mush. Make sure to use real Motorguard filters as they are tightly wound and have a plastic core.
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Tom,
Egads! Pass the smelling salts! LOL Must have been a nice commission on that deal!
It does make me feel better about the 200 bucks I spent on the Frantz setup though!
You make a couple of good points re pre filtering and that pressure guage. What kind
of guage? I assume a regular water pump pressure guage might not like the oil?
Rob
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Yes the commission was around 40%. As a testimony as to how good these units are. The customer, Libby Owens Ford, bought one unit and ran it for a month filtering vacuum pump oil and then sent a sample of fresh oil and the used pump oil in for analysis. They found that the used pump oil was cleaner than the "fresh" oil out of the drum. I'm not that good of a salesman, the filters sold themselves.
For a gage just use a cheap-ie rated to about 30 PSI. If you see any pressure drop or peg the gage change the filter.
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Hey there JSG. In reply to your querie about anyone running 100% WMO, Willem at oldstylelisters.com has two 6/1's running on straight waste motor oil for for two years and only needs extra maint. to clean injector tips. See his article, black gold.
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I ran waste motor oil in my 3.5 petter for a while. I filtered it through a toliet paper filter first. I now use used hydraulic oil I get for free. It burns much cleaner since it dont have carbon deposits in it. When I changed my filter element after running the motor oil through it there were bad sludge deposits in the filter. The hyd. oil leaves no sludge.
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Ronsmith;
Tell us about your toilet paper filter. Frantz? Motorguard? Easy to use? Cleans fuel O.K.? or not?
Have you used one on the lube oil? Does it keep the engine clean? Etc?
Inquiring minds need to know.... ;)
Scott E
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Hey cranelift,
Don't forget he also uses his Lister as a chick magnet. You know how it turns them on, they probably really love his waste oil ;D ;D
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I made a toliet paper filter out of 6" plactic sewer pipe. I decored three rolls of tp slid them down over a 1" plastic pipe that I had drilled random holes in and capped. Then i set this assemble down inside the 6" and capped the bottom. Then I cut a 1" hole in my top 6" cap and slid it down over the 1" pipe. I drilled a small hole near bottom of the 6" pipe and installed a decored tire valve w/cap and thats my filtered oil drain. :-\
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I want to rig up a smoke filtration unit on mt minipetter exhaust. I think i can use a small barrel with water and dish liquid inside to catch the carbon. does anyone have any experience with this? :'(
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Hi group I use a Motorgard filter on my 85 Mercedes. Works fine.
To clean motor oil for fuel usage, I am cosidering useing a Gulf Coat filter, they use paper towel rolls. A small capacity pump from graingers to recirculate the oil repeatedly untill the pressure drop across the filter stays low.
I bought a skinner II centrifugal filter for the car but I deceided not to install it on the car because while they get the oil very clean they don't remove any water from the oil. The Skinner filter is original equipment on many diesels like Mack trucks.
In the 70s I was in the army stationed in Korea. We were suposed to make a convoy run to rotate the missles into the depot for maintanence. They had to go, no delays! We got the convoy loaded and fueled except for two trucks. Both were empty of fuel. We filled one with Mo-gas and the other with 30 weight motor oil. They were Mulifuel engines-Right! :D They both made the trip of 250 miles. They one with gas needed the injecters and pump rebuilt after retiurning to home.
I drove the oil fueled one It was ok under load there was the normal low smoke, but when the truck had to idle(I did'nt dare shut it off for long) the exhaust went white. Quite a lot of white-light grey smoke. When we got reloaded and returned to our home post it only took a mile or so to get back to normal exaust.
So the point is the listers, after starting on diesel and a warmup should be OK! Heated fuel lines would be a good idea,before the filters.
Dennis
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if that was the ole duce and a half truck, we use to fill it almost full of gas then dump a buck of motor oil in the tank// it always ran pretty good // no problems with the oil mixed with it//sid
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I'm building a gravity filter using a paper towel roll now. I'll post pictures soon.
In the mean time-- anybody anywhere near a cheese plant, fertilizer plant or other chemical places, check out the square poly tanks inside a tubular aluminum frame and sitting on it's own plastic pallet. Mine holds 268 gallons each with a two inch and a six inch top cap and a two inch ball valve below.
They have a $40 deposit on them but the cheese plants near Twin Falls would rather sell them for $10 than pay to ship them back.
My mini-Petter pump fills two tanks in series that drip irrigate trees and shrubs. One will have WMO in it soon with a tall filter plugged right in the top..
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Hi HT,
Looking forward to seeing pics of you filter setup.
Thanks
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here are a couple pics of my toliet paper filter:http://listerengine.com/coppermine/index.php
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Ronsmith;
Tell us about your toilet paper filter. Frantz? Motorguard? Easy to use? Cleans fuel O.K.? or not?
Have you used one on the lube oil? Does it keep the engine clean? Etc?
Inquiring minds need to know.... ;)
Scott E
Read all about it: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=36
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Hi,
I am using waste motor oil blended 50/50 with kerosene, great results, energy rate: 15.5KW/H per GAL.
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I bought an old 83 Fortravel motor home 4 yr ago. It would smoke and was hard to start and the fuel filters would clug up in 400 miles. The fuel tank had lots of rust, water and sediment in it and I didn't want to remove the tank. I then installed a Gulfcoast paper towel filter before the other fuel filters. This filter is suppose remove up to 2 lb of sediment and 2 qts. of water and filter to less than 1 micron. To this day that engine runs great. I only move the rv every 7 months and I never start the engine during that time. It starts within the 1st second of turning the key. Great filter. Expensive though but well worth it.
http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
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I want to rig up a smoke filtration unit on mt minipetter exhaust. I think i can use a small barrel with water and dish liquid inside to catch the carbon. does anyone have any experience with this? :'(
Do you count farting in a bubble bath experience? ;D
I think I`d be worried about how to deal with the black water. It has been mentioned in another thread that certain kinds of algae can grow on the engine soot deposited in a buried gravel bed and turn it into nice stuff. Have you looked into this as a possible, environmentally friendly approach?
BTW, if that evironmentally friendly approach leads directly to your house, better have folks remove their shoes at the door.
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I used to be a factory rep for Motorguard for this application:
http://www.lesker.com/newweb/Traps_and_Filters/OilFiltration/Motorguard.cfm?CFID=770798&CFTOKEN=61408253§ion=motorguard&init=skip
Don't feint when you see the price. I sold 13 of these in 1 sales call one time.
Some suggestions, I've never done this app before but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once. First filter your oil through the finest screen available. Then maybe a 5 micron string wound water filter would be nice and then hit the Motorguard filter. You should place a pressure gage before the Motor guard filter and monitor the pressure. If you see a sudden drop you've likely blown a hole between the layers of TP and need to replace the filter. The cellulose in the TP will absorb moisture until it turns to mush. Make sure to use real Motorguard filters as they are tightly wound and have a plastic core.
You can get them a lot cheaper than that: http://cgi.ebay.com/Motorguard-Vacuum-Pump-Oil-Filtration-System_W0QQitemZ110209207162QQihZ001QQcategoryZ57013QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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You bet they did. I used to be a Motorguard rep and in 1980 we sold 2 canister units with a pump for $1000.00.
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This may come as such a daft question but I dont know the answer. :-[
CVJET wrote use a cotton or hemp rope to siphon the oil out of the drum and into a gallon milk container or similar, the oil will be quite clean as cotton filters well.
Can Someone tell me how this work, I cannot picture sucking on the end of a hemp rope. Does the rope just absorb the oil and slowly drip. Therefore dangle one end in a bucket of oil and the other over the side. If so what happens to the rope when it touches the lip of the bucket??
Thanks In advance.
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Gentlemen,
Some of you are scaring me.
Bill
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And why is that blacksea7 ?
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Gentlemen,
Burning drain oil isn't a problem... nor is filtering it... but please, don't use toilet paper or papertowel filters... honestly, go the local parts store or www.northerntool.com and look under hyd hardware and purchase a great 15gpm filter for just a few bucks. As for the carbon particulates, a centrifuge is the only way to get it out of the fuel. The carbon doesn't actually hurt anything internally as carbon is an extremely good bearing material... but smoke? WHEW!
bill
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Man I aint used toilet paper in years ......
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Gentlemen,
Burning drain oil isn't a problem... nor is filtering it... but please, don't use toilet paper or papertowel filters... honestly, go the local parts store or www.northerntool.com and look under hyd hardware and purchase a great 15gpm filter for just a few bucks. As for the carbon particulates, a centrifuge is the only way to get it out of the fuel. The carbon doesn't actually hurt anything internally as carbon is an extremely good bearing material... but smoke? WHEW!
bill
I have a $12,000 Alfa-Laval centrifugal filter. I is totally incapable of carbon removal. It will clarify jet fuel perfectly clear. Even jet fuel that has massive biological/chemical/particulate contamination. However, when I add used motor oil to the Jet A, the carbon is not removed. Even after an overnight stint in the centrifuge! By the way, this thing pulls 30,000 "G's" centripidal force.
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i have a theory about the effort to remove the carbon from waste oil :)
carbon is an element, true?
oil is a molecule, made up of various elements, hydrocarbons etc.
molecules are larger than elements
in order to filter down to the elemental atom level the oil molecule being larger cannot pass the filter.
so clearly (no pun intended) filtration is not going to get the black out of used motor oil, at least the carbon atoms which
there is probably a hell of a lot of in waste oil.
now if we are dealing with a buttload of carbon atoms (likely) how much force will it take to move a carbon atom in a centrifuge?
i suspect the G forces required to do so would be virtually unattainable without a horrendous amount of money spent.
so whats left?
what has an affinity for carbon atoms, that also has no interest in the oil hydrocarbon molecule?
hell if i know :)
it is also possible that hydrocarbons themselves have an affinity for carbon atoms! and if this is the case
seperating the two is going to be very difficult.
probably going to have to re distill the oil again to seperate the carbon from the hydrocarbons.
not sure i want to build a refinery in my back yard, and i am sure my neighbors agree.
bob g
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I'm sure you realy don't want to have a refinery in your back yard and then invite me and Bob chomping on a couple of cigars to look it over lol.