Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: Shadow on December 17, 2007, 02:14:01 AM
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I'm running my 6/1 on WVO,but I'm having trouble with carbon after about 4 days of running. I have made some corrections so it may get better. I heat the oil via engine coolant to about 160 degrees then have an injection line heater so oil is hot going in. I just added the line heater so this might correct it.
When I pull the head off,the exhaust valve is carboned up as well as the top of the piston is fairly black and baked on, as well as a bit of a black ridge in top of cylinder.
I've tried the water injection method for a day or so, didnt seem to help much. I've running with the compression knob turned in(some people say you need higher compression for veg.oil) that didnt seem to make much diff.
Next I'll try the Acetone mixture with the oil, see if that helps. I wonder what would happen if I used Lacquer thinner instead of Acetone? The ingrediants of Lacquer thinner are, Toluene, methyl ethyl ketone, methanol,and acetone. But its $15.00 a gal, compared to $28.00 gal for Acetone.
Next question How much of a role would my exhaust system be playing in this ? I have 2 inch pipe coming out of the engine with a sharp 90 degree elbow going straight up 3 feet then a more gradual 90 following the ceiling over to the outer wall about 6 feet, then through the wall and another 90 along the outside wall for about 2 feet into a Ford pickup muffler then out of the muffler to another gradual 90 downspout.Total exhaust sytem is about 15 feet of 2 inch pipe but lots of turns. Is exhaust better to rise up out of the engine or down? Straight out is not an option the way my shed is set up but I could go straight up through the ceiling or down to just above the floor then straight out. Or Maybe exhaust is not the problem.
I am current oiling the valves and rocker arms with a veg-oil-2 cycle oil mixture just a shot a couple times a day. I think I'll make a felt washer setup on the valve stems so the absorb oil but dont let it get sucked in the valve guides. ???
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Are you putting a decent load on the unit. No load will always cause a carbon problem.
You also mentioned 160 degree coolant heating the veg oil. Unit would benifit by running around 200F. 8)
It appears that your unit is a indirect compression head,judging by the compression change over knob.
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i think it's loaded fairly decent , it's a ST 5 gen that puts 240 volt into a Rectifier/charger that charges a 48 volt battery bank. When I flip the breaker to start the load it drops the engine rpms by about 30, it runs around 650 empty and 620 loaded. Mind you as the battery bank comes up so do the rpms but not significantly.
The 160 temp is about what the oil temp is, I try to keep the engine temp around 180-190. I use a Taco pump to circulate water around my oil tanks.
Yes, I think they consider these indirect injection. I've tried it with knob screwed in and screwed out dident seem to make a difference. I think the higher compression would be the best, but if the higher compression is distorting the swirl of the injector then maybe its not helping. According to the Lister books the knob should be turned out to run. Which means lower compression.
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I had a problem with fuel system seals and leaks after I mixed some acetone into my heavy oil/diesel fuel mixture on my VW 4-cylinder diesel power plant. I had another problem as well. It appears that the acetone in the fuel caused vapor bubbles in my fuel heater designed to bring heavy oil to thin viscocity before it hits the IP. There was a continuous stream of bubbles entering the pump which caused real havoc with running as you can imagine.
I recommend that you not add any light hydrocarbons to thin the veg oil. You might try what I did on my one cylinder JD175A with excellent results on really thick oil (not veggie). Place an electric heating element on the injector itself and heat it up to 300-350 degrees F (I operated mine at a continuous 400 degrees F). Preheat the oil to 160 F with the engine coolant to allow it to flow easily through the IP.
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RCA, that just is not so-too many engines out there are running using pure acetone to help with carbon issues, etc.
Read http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/2411025012 , it has a lot of suggestions.
http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/ is the best info for acetone that I know of.
Also, my guess is; you have an IP/seal leak which allows air in.
There is a lot of info on the web about VW diesel engines, and other older diesel engines that frequently have trouble with wvo, biodiesel, etc, because of rubber lines, seals, and parts. May not happen in one month, and may not happen in one year-but it will eventually. Not because of acetone.
Someone earlier wrote about the cost of adding acetone; it costs 2 to 10 cents per gallon of treatment depending on how much you use and how much you pay for it, and if it is free fuel you are using, it is a very inexpensive solution to a problem.
Ran water a lot for about 100,000 miles,mainly towing, and it is tough to regulate on a 200 HP diesel, let alone a 6 HP diesel!! That is why I don't run it any more.
Have been adding 16 oz of pure acetone per 100 gallons of biodiesel, vegoil, and/or yellow-green diesel for about 30,000 miles in my newest Duramax, and find it makes for smoother running, better mileage, and the elimination of all "hiccups".
And as far as the older engines, Listeroids, etc, that run the really low-grade waste fuels are concerned, there is no comparison. This soul will just not run them without it.
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RCA, that just is not so-too many engines out there are running using pure acetone to help with carbon issues, etc.
jimdunne,
Glad to meet an expert on my own physical plant consisting of several diesel gensets and as many fuel storage and delivery systems who knows it better than the fellow that put it together, maintains and nurses it all.
Funny with this intimate knowledge of my setup you don`t know that my engines or any of their associated seals and hoses have never been exposed to vegoil or biodiesel.
I am not saying that someone else may not have good results with acetone. In my own experience so far it has caused real problems. One was that it suddenly caused the fuel in one of my supply tanks to have vapor pressure for the first time and this caused an oily mess all over the floor as it literally pushed oil uphill and out a open pipe while I was somewhere else. It revealed a plumbing error oversight on my part which has since been corrected, but it is true it caused a large oily mess. All the spin on filters associated with tanks that had acetone added developed mating flange gasket seal dripping rate leaks at the same time noticed weeks after the acetone treatment. These seals had been dry while in service for a year and more prior to the addition of the acetone. I have not seen any IP leakage.
In my statement I carefully chose my words as ` It appears that the acetone in the fuel caused vapor bubbles...`
My air or fuel vapor bubbles on the VW plant may be pinhole line leakage, but it may also be vapor bubbles caused by the line suction and high temperature within the fuel heating stage. I will be able to determine the actual cause in time as the added acetone clears the system. In the meantime I shall not be adding anything `experimental` to my fuel.
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Wonderful post, RCAVictim.
Let me just say that I first ran ULO in a diesel engine in 1958. It was an IH 6 cylinder which was started on gasoline and once warm, changed over to a kerosene/ULO mix. Since then, have more hours operating equipment, vehicles, and airplanes than I care to think about, and yes, a fair amount of it was using alternative fuels.
Have used heating, treating, and diluting for alternative fuels for a long time, and the same rules apply no matter which fuels (hydrocarbons) are used. Yes, the applications vary. No, since you are comfortable that you know about your engine(s), and obviously, fuels, will not detail my humble rules, processes, and formulae. Am certain they would not help you in any manner, anyway.
Have also had about as many issues with hoses and fittings cobbled together as anyone, and most of those were from my own failure to follow good practices.It is always so much fun to blame others though, isn't it?
You state that I am an expert on your own physical plant. I assure you, I am not, and have no desire to ever even look at it. And, the day when you and I are intimate will be one cold day in He**.
Let me write this in a clear way: Acetone in ratios of 1/250 to 1/1200 (1-5 ounces per 10 gallons of fuel) mixed in fuel does not cause vapor bubbles.
Please continue, I will not respond further to dampen your joy in being a victim (again).
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Shadow,
I would recommend NOT using laquer thinner as a fuel additive until it is known for sure that this stuff will not eat seals and hoses.
The many sharp bends in your exhaust system are not friendly to the engine. Replace those which absolutely cannot be avoided entirely with large radius sweeping bends which means forget cast angle plumbing fittings. If you must use the plumbing pipe with threaded ends and couplings format it is possible to have black iron pipe bent nicely in a radius with a hydraulic pipe bender like on I recently purchased on sale from Princess Auto. It does a really slick job with virtually no crush at the bend with this type of pipe.
Exhaust pointed at the ground instead of up into the air is going to make a black sooty mess of the ground and everything alse in the near vivinity of the exhaust outlet. Ask me how i know. :( If this is not a problem I don`t see any operational issues with it. The downhill will help keep condensation out of your engine.
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A good mufler shop can bend up pipe too worth considering.
One can also look for other materials such as EMT or thin wall elecltrical conduit because it was made to be easily shaped and bent. ( Please note if you are going to use something like EMT or Pipe from other sources you need to consider how safe well suported and leak proof things will be
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Iv'e seen a lot of photos on this site of members installations with the exhaust pipe(s) pointing upwards. This is not a good idea,as 'wet stacking' can occur with light loads.
Always point them down.
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Iv'e seen a lot of photos on this site of members installations with the exhaust pipe(s) pointing upwards. This is not a good idea,as 'wet stacking' can occur with light loads.
Always point them down.
Now I may be wrong on this but my 38 yrs of working with diesel generators says wet stacking occurs during light loading of a diesel regardless of the orientation of the exhaust. Point it straight up and you will cover a wider area with the droplets. Point it straight down and you could collect it in a bucket and sell it as a roof sealer. :D
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hello everybody,
I searched this and other forums but have not found enough data yet.
I am running a GM90 DI on cleaned WVO, soybean, with a load of 2KW . I am having coking problem after 30 hours of use. ( 3 days of 10 hours each) Every day I remove the injector and clean the nozzle outside of the injector and check the spray pattern on diesel injector tester. It shows good.
I preheat the oil before the injection pump and after that have resistance heater of 90 Watts around the injector line. The coupling on the injector is about 215 Fahrenheit measured with a thermocouple . I drilled a dimple in the injector coupling to insert the thermocoule with some heat compound to get a reliable measurement .Also wheni put a drop of water on the coupling it bubbles up to steam, so I think the measurement is reasonable accurate.
The outside of the injector feels hotter then the block.
The engine has a thermostat that has 85 degree celsius on it , about 190 Fahrenheit. It is setup in a bypass mode, that means that the waterpump water does not force the water through the engine.
The cooling system is piped into the floor heat in series with the main boiler. The water pump is the main circulator
I have a 16 ft ( 7 ft and 9 ft) exhaust heat exchanger made of 2" electrical entrance conduit and 3" schedule 40 gray PVC pipe around it with rubber reducers ( furenco's ??) The cool water out of the floor heating goes in this exhaust heat exchanger and then in to the cooling bypass loop of the engine.
The heat exchanger is set up on a slight drop so that condensation does not flow back into the engine. I can touch the exhaust after
7 foot and after the next 10 foot section it is about the same temperature as the cool input water.
It works well.
I have measured the electrical conversion efficiency with soybean oil number as Joules / Kgram and KWH on the output . It comes out to 32 to 35 % very good also.
The output is measured through a volt and Amp meter and also an old KWH meter, disc style out of a mobile home, very convenieint .
The 120 VAC is fed into a 48 Volt battery charger and from there in an Outback Grid tie inverter back in to the grid. There are a lot of losses in the set up, mainly in the battery charger that gets hot. At a 2KW generator output I convert about 1.3 KW back into the grid.
My main problem at this moment is the coking. I pulled the head and removed the coke, mainly hard build up. Mostly build up under 120 degrees at the same location where the 3 holes of the injector spray.
The coking is against the cylinder head , on top of the cylinder and inside the cavity of the piston.
I fear that at some moment the piston would slam against the head and damage the bearing and connecting rod.
I have lowered the injector 0.020 more inside the piston cavity by usinga thinner copper washer under the injector in the hope that the carbon build up would be more inside the piston bowl and less between the piston and the cylinder head.
I would like to know what I do wrong, also is this coke build up normal for 30 Hours of running time?
I woud like to post pictures of my setup and coking problem over her but have not figured out how, please advise.
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Try some Power Service Arctic Express® Biodiesel Antigel, and their Diesel Kleen® +Cetane Boost®. Also if you use propane injection; it will stop the issue definitely.
I also use pure acetone, and with your issues, if you use 5 OZ/ten gallons of fuel, it will make a huge difference in coking.
The heat sounds about right, so you have some real yukkies in your "fuel"!! The DI does not help at all, either.
You might use some pellon for another filter stage, and that should help, also.
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I am running a GM90 DI on cleaned WVO, soybean, with a load of 2KW . I am having coking problem after 30 hours of use. ( 3 days of 10 hours each) Every day I remove the injector and clean the nozzle outside of the injector and check the spray pattern on diesel injector tester. It shows good.
Have you processed the oil to remove the glycerin ? Oil burns, glycerin is goo.
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Have you processed the oil to remove the glycerin ? Oil burns, glycerin is goo.
It is my understanding that glycerin is created once the catalyst methanol/lye mix is added during the manufacture of biodiesel. Glycerin is created only when transesterification occurs.
If this is incorrect someone whith a chemistry back ground will correct the above statement.
Scott
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Have you processed the oil to remove the glycerin ? Oil burns, glycerin is goo.
It is my understanding that glycerin is created once the catalyst methanol/lye mix is added during the manufacture of biodiesel. Glycerin is created only when transesterification occurs.
If this is incorrect someone whith a chemistry back ground will correct the above statement.
Scott
Oh. I just thought it was dispersed in the oil naturally, and the methanol/lye brought it out. So it reacts with something in the Veg Oil, and the glycerin is created.
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The description of the of the process being transertification implies that something is transformed, no.
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hello gents,
I will try the acetone.
This used veggie, filtered . What I do not understand is that may people seem to run cars and listeroids on used veggie but there is not a lot of reports on the carbon when heads are pulled. The car community seems to run easily 20-30000 miles , that should be at an average of 50mph 400 to 600 hours. I would think lister(oids) would be more reliable at least not so in my first experiment.
i would like to get some data from people who run these engines to work several hours a day on veggie and like to hear how much maintenance they perform on this carbon issue.
May be it will turn out that some engines are better with veggie oil.
If some has already done such a "study" please let me know.
Regards and thanks so far for the help.
Johan
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here is the study you requested.
http://www.me.columbia.edu/me3410/spring06/group01/index.html
Scott
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Thank you Scott,
interesting , unfortunately no long term data in this test yet. I was more interested in people who have actual listeroid work horses on WVO and there long term experiences with carbon and even coking I hope with pictures since they show so much and of course why my listeroid has these problems while it seems many other people don't have any problems of this kind.
I cannot get coppermine to work on my computer, meaning the i can not display the files. I would like to upload jpg of my carbon problems to get as many opinions about possible causes.
regards Johan
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Hi Johan;
Just noticed this thread. I run 6/1's exclusively on WVO (except for starting and stopping) for 12 hours/day (I am running 24/7 right now, i alternate engines between day and night) I find that I need to de-coke every 2,000 hours or so and need to clean the injector every 300 hours (at oil changes). My oil is dewatered, heated and filtered before going into the storage tanks, then it is pumped over into the day tanks - every time I take the oil off the top of the tank, never the bottom.
I have over 15,000 hours on one 6/1, around 10,000 on the other The second is now due for a decoke (not responding well to loads) and the most I have done is to replace rings at 7500 hours in #1 engine.
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Hello JohnF13,
wow, those are spectacular numbers. Can I ask what kind of WVO are you using, corn, soy, canola. If you used different styles did you notice any difference.
Because my engine is in cogen setup it is always warm from the main boiler. Before startup I preheat the injection line to 215F . I use a generator starter from an ONAN set and made a front bearing for it. Starting is real easy , but even on hand crank it picks up immediately.
How much load do you have on your engines? Do you feel that my 2Kw is so low that it could cause carbon after 30 hours.
Any other insights why I have this coke problem?
Thanks for these promising numbers.
Johan
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Your not the only one.Last year when i was experimenting i had a rock hard buildup in the cov.It was like coal. Hotter you can get the oil into the injecter the better.I am trying to get at least 100' C+.I also am going to use acetone as well. Cant see the point of heating the tank unless its lard,but i suppose if i have waste heat to use then i would heat it to make things run abit easier.
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Hi , Raise your compression ratio to 18/1 or higher , you need more combustion temp to burn fuel better , what is your compression ratio ? most are lower than 15/1 , my toyota diesel car has compression ratio of 23/1 and ran on veg oil with out carbon on injectors when I took them out to check , you also need to have at least 3/4 load on the engine so it has high combustion temp , check out my web site www.veglisteroidnz.co.nz , CraigC
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Hi Lendusaquid and graigc and others.
Thanks for the encouraging words. This is a DI engine. it starts directly on veggie, even with cold engine ( 15 C) but injection line heater around 80 C . I did not measure the compression ratio I have increased the load to 3.5 Kw by using an additional 1.5Kw heater. I am amazed how little vibration this engine has considering that it is not hard bolted to the concrete floor. There was some worrying smell but it turned out to be the paint on the exhaust flange. The temp measured with a cheap IR meter was 240 degree Celcius, the temp of the head in between the valves 96 C and the oil at the injector 105 C. I was happy to notice that my exhaust heat exchanger is dripping condensate. Can hardly get a higher efficiency.
The engine was working but it seemed with ease.
I will report in the next 30 hours after tear down how it looks. I have to improve my charger so that I can draw more then 2 KW, also the wiring needs to be upgraded to 60 Amp to keep it without losses.
Thanks again Johan
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John
Clean everything out.
Run the engine for 60hrs,
Starting and stopping on diedel. Do not switch over to veg till the engine is up to temp, 200f, and make sure ALL OF THE veg oil is purged prior to shutting down.
Scott
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What about a water mist injection on the air intake?
Seems that I can remember people filling a coke bottle with water and slowly trickleing into the top of the carberetor,while running the engine quite fast. I'd be amazed just watching the carbon flying out of the tailpipe! Big clouds of black soot!
If you did this on a modern car or truck,the engine light would probably come on.
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Hi john. How do you deal with the veg goo that builds up in the bottom of the IP? My 'roid runs on wvo and about every 500 hrs I have to switch to another cleaned IP. It only takes a few minutes, but if the problem can be avoided it woul be nice.
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Thanks for all the help.
I have been out of it for a while .
I have some pics of the carbon build up in the GM90. each is 45 K . How do I upload these?
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Put your pics here.
http://www.listerenginegallery.com/