Lister Engine Forum
How to / DIY => Generators => Topic started by: johnny williams on November 23, 2007, 12:16:21 AM
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What are you guys running your heads at. I had been running at 220, well pump loves it, but all of my oyher loads are 110. Just for grins and giggles tonight I wired the head for 115. BOY WHAT A SUPRISE. No more light flicker, not bad at 220, 2.5hp radial arm saw thinks it is on "real" power. 1/2 hp air compressor starts under load as well as it does on the grid. Thinking of running a sub panel and using the ST for 110 only. Will set up a way of running a jumper to the house from the shop if the power goes out. Is anyone else doing anything like this?
Johnny
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Will set up a way of running a jumper to the house from the shop if the power goes out. Is anyone else doing anything like this?
Johnny
No-one on this forum is doing anything like that. This is a place about basket weaving ;D
...and kidding around. Good for you. Yes. I ran a 3-wire, 230 volt line to the house to provide emergency power from one of my generators installed in the shop when the mains go down. I don`t want to hear or smell any generators from my house.
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wire to your needs or demands. if 220 and running a bunch of 110 loads balance acc. dont know about jumper and doesnt sound good but to each there own
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I just converted mine back to 240. In 120V it ran all kinds of large stuff really well. Now it will be running the house and inverters for backup charging. Strangely I lost the original rectifier when I made this change and now it seems I lost the replacement, we will find out for sure tomorrow.
Interesting report about the light flicker. I noticed a bit when mine was wired for 120V, I'll report back if it is any worse now.
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GREAT rca I need a LARGE waste basket for all of my trash :D Can you build me one.
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GREAT rca I need a LARGE waste basket for all of my trash :D Can you build me one.
Sorry Johnny,
I`m too busy weaving my own. I can however give you the name of an institution that allows you to book yourself in for free that has courses on basket weaving and they supply the materials no charge. You get free psychotropical drugs too! ;D
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GEE Thanks I may need that after Christmas is over. I already have too many drugs now LOL
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Well got the ST5 working again, seems a wire broke on the armature windings. Since I'm working at the home site my solder iron was not there, so I McGuyvered it. I took a 5" length of #6 ground wire and filed a point on it and then clamped it in some vice grips. I had a propane torch and solder for plumbing, so I heated and tined my new "iron". Then got it good and hot and soldered those wires right up.
The light flicker seems no different with it wired form 120/240. These are florescent lights and they do flicker a bit with both setups. one thing that did change though is the sound of the generator. It now makes a humming noise when the lights are on.
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Since I'm working at the home site my solder iron was not there, so I McGuyvered it. I took a 5" length of #6 ground wire and filed a point on it and then clamped it in some vice grips. I had a propane torch and solder for plumbing, so I heated and tined my new "iron". Then got it good and hot and soldered those wires right up.
While in Phoenix last week, we found a nice little surplus store, picked up a brand new 1lb copper soldering iron, with US Govt tag from 1953, $6 plus AZ tax. Got it on my desk here at home, handy for the occasional burglar... :-))
Peter
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Since I'm working at the home site my solder iron was not there, so I McGuyvered it. I took a 5" length of #6 ground wire and filed a point on it and then clamped it in some vice grips. I had a propane torch and solder for plumbing, so I heated and tined my new "iron". Then got it good and hot and soldered those wires right up.
While in Phoenix last week, we found a nice little surplus store, picked up a brand new 1lb copper soldering iron, with US Govt tag from 1953, $6 plus AZ tax. Got it on my desk here at home, handy for the occasional burglar... :-))
Peter
I`ve never had a problem with the occasional burgler breaking in and robbing my soldering iron, even though it does contain copper. Oh crap now the world knows I have a copper tipped soldering iron too. I`ll have to install an alarm system. Oh, oh, that will contain copper as well. I`m trapped in a loop. :o
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here's an interesting soldering iron for the survivalist
many years ago i saw this type of iron and it had been in use in a starter/generator rebuild shop for many years
you take a wooden handle #2 philips screw driver
pull the steel shaft out of the handle, and drill thru the handle so that the steel shaft can be pushed clear thru
you then hammer and flatten the back end of the shaft, and drill it to attach a #8 stranded copper lead with a large aligator clamp on the other
end,,, the length of the lead on that one was about 6 ft long.
you then push the steel shaft back into the handle
on the working end you install a 1/4" copper tubing ferrule type union, torque down tight on the steel shaft
you then use a 1/4 inch carbon rod, (he got his out of an old carbon zinc D battery, but the rods are available at a welding shop)
he used a pencil sharpener to point the end of the rod,
cut the rod off at about an inch or a bit longer
install this carbon tip into the other end of the ferrule union and snug it up enough to keep in from falling out
you then attach the alligator clip to a 12 volt battery, and touch the tip to a convenient ground (not directly to the battery of course
it is under the bench and that is why the lead is 6 ft long)
in a second or two the carbon will glow red hot, and you can solder alot of connection before it cools
i watched the old guy solder up armature commutator connections pretty quickly with it, touch the ground and heat the tip
solder one or two, reheat, and repeat.
dirt cheap and very effective, no sal ammoniac, and no tinning required
anyway one to add to the end of the world files
bob g
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Why flicker? I'd get a "Killawatt" and see if you are right at 60Hz and 120V. Your generator shouldn't be any different than utility power.
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That's right. However it's belted to a slow turning long-stroke single cylinder diesel engine. So it speeds up and slows down with each power stroke and subsequent compression stroke to the tune of about 5.4 Hz which causes a voltage fluctuation which the eye can definitely see. Incandescent lights and compact fluorescent lights don't show much flicker, but regular fluorescents flicker noticeably.
Quinn
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... and compact fluorescent lights don't show much flicker, but regular fluorescents flicker noticeably.
Quinn
If I may ask a off-topic question about compact fluorescent lights that's been puzzling me...What makes them so tollerant to uneven or odd power? What I mean by that is, I have an old Honda generator (E80) that I recently managed to make run, and wanted to test it. I read somewhere else on here about CFLs and how they worked well on unclean generator power, so Ii decided to try it. Plugged the light in, worked fine. The generator wasn't running too smooth, so RPM was up/down a bit, and the light never changed in brightness till before the motor almost stopped. Not only all that, but the generator puts out 180hz, or so Honda claims. Didn't want to risk plugging in the Kill-A-Watt and killing it to find out the Hz, which was supposed to be out of range for the KAW anyway. Do they convert to DC, then back again to AC or what goes on in there? I've Googled but found nothing conclusive.
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This should help explain things much better than I can....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
All lights with a gas tube work on the principle that electrons moving from one end of the tube to the other bash into atoms of other stuff. This bashing about changes the energy state the outer shell of electrons and causes light to be released. The amount of current needed to make the light opperate properly is regulated by the ballast. The ballast makes the CFL work a little more consistantly so you don;t notice the flicker as much.
Depending on the stuff in the tube and what if anything ht etubes are coated with you can get some differennces in colour.
I myself am kind of fond of the old magnetic CFL because they are simple and the bulbs are easily replaced.
I also like the dark colourless yellow type of lights from another type of lighting called a low Presure Sodium. Welll not so much because of the light but because I like the simplicity and reliability of LPS over FL and other HID lighting systems.
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So a secondary flywheel would help smooth things out?
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Yes, adding mass will store energy so that between power strokes the alternator won;t so downas much and durringht epower strocke won't accelerate as hard.
Anything you do to keep the shaft speed will reduce voltage and frequency changes and Flicker.
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Jzeeff...that's why the SOM's which were primary producers of electricity have flywheels that weigh 275 lbs each as compared with regular Lister 6/1 flywheels that weigh only 143 lbs each. As well, the generator on the SOM's had a large pulley that added even more weight.
I just moved the base, crank and flywheel assembly of my SOM type 6/1 90 feet from it's "parking spot" into my garage by hand. I figure flywheels 550lbs, crank 90 lbs plus base 200 (?) lbs equals 840 lbs. Its a good thing my species had people like Archimedes and his lever and some nameless Mesapotamian who invented the wheel etc. etc. It's sitting on a frame which is sitting on 4 casters now (don't even ask how I got it up 8 " in the air to put it on the frame) that are rated at 200 lbs each. The solid rubber wheels are starting to flatten on the bottom ??? (must be chinese casters)
Stan
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Zack,
That's an interesting question, and one that the Wiki articles don't address. Wonder if it could it be that there is more persistence in the phosphors in the CF bulb. I notice when you turn off a CF light in a dark room, there is some persistence, whereas a standard cool-white fluorescent tube shuts off, like, right now.
Quinn
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Electronic ballast Quin:
The high switching speed is not dependent on the line frequency so as long there is enough power to charge the caps inside and do what ever else all the bits in there are doing it will more or less behave as it would on grid power.
I don't know why the coating continues to glow after the power is off on some, its a very interesting question. I have noticed the pink tint to bulbs that are past their prime, now I know its because the Mercury inside is exhausted....
Wiki articles are getting better, used to be easy to spot errors now its too the point you can start to trust it as fairly reliable.
Doug
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Right. There is both a frequency fluctuation and a corresponding voltage fluctuation. The voltage fluctuation is responsible for the flicker. But that voltage fluctuates periodically at the frequency I mentioned. Mebbe I didn't state that very clearly.
A lot of people used to complain of fatigue when reading under fluorescent lights (the traditional type). It might be that some persistence in the phosphors was part of the design of CF lights. In shop class I was taught that it was bad practice to light a shop with fluorescent light because the strobe effect can, under just the right conditions, make piece of rotating machinery appear to stop.
Oh here it is in Wikipedia:
Flicker problems
Fluorescent fittings using a magnetic mains frequency ballast do not give out a steady light; instead, they flicker (fluctuate in intensity) at twice the supply frequency. While this is not easily discernible by the human eye, it can cause a strobe effect posing a safety hazard in a workshop for example, where something spinning at just the right speed may appear stationary if illuminated solely by a fluorescent lamp. It also causes problems for video recording as there can be a 'beat effect' between the periodic reading of a camera's sensor and the fluctuations in intensity of the fluorescent lamp.
Incandescent lamps, due to the thermal inertia of their element, fluctuate to a lesser extent. This is also less of a problem with compact fluorescents, since they multiply the line frequency to levels that are not visible. Installations can reduce the stroboscope effect by using lead-lag ballasts, by operating the lamps on different phases of a polyphase power supply, or by use of electronic ballasts.
Electronic ballasts do not produce light flicker, since the phosphor persistence is longer than a half cycle of the higher operation frequency.
The non-visible 100–120 Hz flicker from fluorescent tubes powered by magnetic ballasts is associated with headaches and eyestrain. Individuals with high flicker fusion threshold are particularly affected by magnetic ballasts: their EEG alpha waves are markedly attenuated and they perform office tasks with greater speed and decreased accuracy. The problems are not observed with electronic ballasts.[3] Ordinary people have better reading performance using high-frequency (20–60 kHz) electronic ballasts than magnetic ballasts.[4]
The flicker of fluorescent lamps, even with magnetic ballasts, is so rapid that it is unlikely to present a hazard to individuals with epilepsy.[5] Early studies suspected a relationship between the flickering of fluorescent lamps with magnetic ballasts and repetitive movement in autistic children.[6] However, these studies had interpretive problems[7] and have not been replicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
Ok, so the operating frequency of CFs is higher than regular fluorescents.
Learn something new every day.
Quinn
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Not all of them have an electronic ballast.
I have a few boxes of ballasts and bulbs that are old inductive core not electronic and they have the same 120 hz flicker that any other common light like an F40 has.
These days you walk into an big shop with high bay lights and you find its lit with HID lights any way no one realy notices. One way around this strobe effect is to lay your bay lighting out so you have all three phases running lenght wise in the shop.
Doug
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Hi all, my first post here. Back to 115 or 220?, or on my st, 120/240. I too would like to wire it parallel for 120v only
so all current is available for loads without balancing problems. However, if I understand correctly how these heads work,
wired this way you will have two hot leads at half or 60v RMS, each 180 deg out of phase, giving 120v total. Same as
when wired in series two ends of windings are hot but voltage adds and you get 240v total.
Am I correct so far?
If so, then is set up would not be useful if using a transfer switch/to load center, but only as a stand alone power source
with direct wiring (extension cord) to loads right?
I've never seen this point about the output explained and I want to be sure I understand it.
dno
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dno,
In a word; no.
Right now, the windings in your ST head are in series;
[ --- --- ----- ---- 240V ---- ---- --- ---]
120 NEUT 120
(-Winding 1 +)-------(-Winding 2 +)
You need to cut that connection, and wire them in parallel
|(-Winding 1+)|
| |
| |
|(-Winding 2+)|
120 NEUT
(Note the +/- just indicate the polarity, it's not meant to imply that they are DC.
George has some article at utterpower on how to do this if it isn't already the wires needed in the junction box.
Steve
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Steve,Thanks. I know how to wire it, but I'm looking at the connection to the house distribution center.
I thought I had a decent grasp on AC and DC but now I'm not sure. Back to the books!
I always treated neutral as 0v or potential at the panel since it is bonded to ground, and the hot! leads as
alternating +/-v sine wave. Volts push current so current direction alternates (AC). I'm not sure I've got this relationship
correct. I may also be mistaken about voltage/current induced in a coil/winding. I may have misunderstood
the +/- convention that is used to show current direction at a point in time, and thought voltage induced
in a coil went positive at one end and negative at the other then reversed respective to the n/s poles they were passing.
I also thought (?) the midpoint or center tap on a winding was neutral and steady 0v because the opposing voltages +/- at
the ends canceled (neutralized) each other at that mid point.
I'm self educated in this and many things, and the only thing I'm sure of is that I may be wrong in my understanding
at times and thats when I learn.
When Jonny started this tread he mentioned that his power tool sounded like it was getting real power!
I did wire my test set up for 120v parallel and thought my saw also started and ran differently (better).
This led me to believe the power was different some how, from the ends of the winding, than the series
set up with power from one end and the center tap neutral.
I'll have to do some testing and reading but for now I'm off to weld up a heat exchanger.
later,
dan (dno)
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If I understand correctly(?). Just for example your gen head is putting out 20 amps @120 VAC when upu woire the head to put out 220 VAC you have doubled you voltage (potential) but halved your amperage (pressure), sorry it's the plumber coming out in me, to 10 amps per leg. Therefore you only have the 10 amps available for starting a 120V load instead of 20amps. Am I correct or just over simplyfing it for my simple mind.
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If that is plumbing, you had better watch the flow. Current equates to flow in the analogy, pressure is the potential.
The load will be in Watts, Joules per Second. Watts is the product of current in Amps and potential in Volts.
You are correct in your thinking that you only have half the output current available except that now you have half the current at twice the voltage so same power. 120 volt load might not like that?
Regards, RAB
Regards, RAB
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DNO,
Your power tool might run better because it has twice the starting current available. Other than that, the power is the same.
If you are only running 120V loads on a standard house panel, you can wire the coils in the generator in parallel, and then attach one end of the coils to the netural bar, and the other to both hot bars. Any 240V loads will not work. I have a seen a 240V load (a stove) that had a center tapped transformer in it for the controls (ie. it was hooked up to both 120 legs, and the netural), and acutally popped the fuse on this, so maybe best to open any 240V breakers. Also, any split receptacles (120V outlet on a 2240V breaker) could have thier neutral lines overloaded, so just best to shut off all double pole breakers.
As for the conventions we use, they do represent the coil at one point in time, simply so we dont wire the coils in a dead short configuration. The best way to play with this, I think, is to get two D- cell batteries, and experiment with them in series in and parallel. Cover up the +/- symbols on your meter, and the result on the meter will look just like the AC readings would. One thing you can learn from this, is that neutral or ground is only where YOU choose it to be, you can place the - lead anywhere, and that BECOMES your ground, and you can reverse your +/- leads, and you still get the same reading. If you put one meter lead in the middle of the batteries in series, you will get two legs of 1.5V each, if you measure across the two legs, you get 3.0V, just like our edison wiring system. And you can turn both batteries around, and is still works the same.
Steve