Lister Engine Forum
Slow Speed Diesel Engines => Other Slow Speed Diesels => Topic started by: rcavictim on October 16, 2007, 04:46:16 AM
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I have always wanted an engine that will run on the smell of an oily rag and this will be the closest I will be able to get to reach my goal.
The Lister or Listeroid 6/1 is a great engine to run continuously as a battery bank charger in an off-grid situation where the house and shop loads can then run off inverters. Trouble is the 6/1 is a large displacement engine, nearly 1.5 litres displacement. Anyway you run it, it has to use enough fuel to keep warm and not wet stack. I wanted a smaller displacement engine that could live on considerably less fuel that was also capable of operating at Lister CS speeds to get low noise operation and long life. No such engines seem to be available on the marketplace so I thought I might be able to `make my own` so to speak.
I have just fabricated a very strong and heavy welded steel frame to maintain the precise geometry between a small China JD175A diesel (353cc horizontal water cooled single rated at 6 HP@2600 RPM) to a 180 pound flywheel directly coupled to the original flywheel on an outboard bearing shaft. The flywheel I am adding came from a agricultural hay bailer and is a very high quality casting and is very well balanced. It is a stover type solid disc center with three large holes and an outer rim width of 5 inches. The diameter is 19-1/2 inches. According to the 60 MPH rim speed rule for cast iron wheels this flywheel should be safe to run at 1000 RPM max. At 1000 RPM my JD 175 should be capable of making about 2+ HP. That can translate into a KW or slightly more in electrical output. In 24 hours I can put 24 kWH into my battery bank, A house can run on 24 kW hours in a day.
I am retaining the original flywheel on the JiangDong 175 engine and have manufactured a coupler that bolts up to the JD the same way the V-belt pulley gets installed with three bolts at 120 degree centers. My coupler transfers rotaional energy to the large flywheel through three coaxial rubber damped couplers. This is tight coupling but provides damping so that harmonics cannot build up in the JD crankshaft nor is it likely to suffer cracking from high peak shock loading. At least that is the idea. ;) My large flywheel has it`s own jackshaft and two ball bearings to bear the static weight of the massive flywheel. The center `pin` of the coupler half that is bolted to the JD flywheel terminates in a bronze bushing in the center of the large flywheel. This provides some mass support of the large flywheel to the engine crank in the radial direction.
Today I finally got the engine and big flywheel all mated up on the new frame in near perfect alignment for the first time. I fired it up and ran it for about 20 minutes. The stock governor on the JD would shut off the fuel rack completely trying to run slower than about 480 RPM, so that is where I let it run. There is no vibration at all and a glass of water has almost no ripple on the surface when perched on the frame base in three corners. In the forth corner it has a slight ripple pattern. I have not yet fine tuned the alignment between the engine and large flywheel with shims. I can see that I need to add about ten thou worth of shimstock behind just one of the three perches that hold my coupler to the JD flywheel, that`s it!
At 1000 RPM and full power I expect to be able to run about 3 hours making 1 kW electric output on just a litre of fuel. It appears that this plant will run at 500 RPM, so 500 watts could be possible at a real slow speed. At 500 watts, 6 hours per litre of fuel use ought to be possible. That means it may run a 24 hour day on just one gallon of juice. Only testing will verify if this project will succeed but so far my experimantal plant appears to run OK.
Now I need to add the framing necessary to mount the big DC generator I plan to use and see how it performs under a load. If OK I`ll install the fuel tank and radiator system.
I need to get into the stock governor and modify it to work over the new slower speed range. I expect to have to increase the mass of the flying weights.
I`ll post pics as soon as I am able.
edit to correct minor tech detail.
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I must be missing something here. The 6/1 listeroid will burn .11 gal of fuel per kw so 3kw = .33 gal or about a liter. So where is the fuel savings? Unless you're just having fun, then carry on.
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I must be missing something here. The 6/1 listeroid will burn .11 gal of fuel per kw so 3kw = .33 gal or about a liter. So where is the fuel savings? Unless you're just having fun, then carry on.
Tom,
Your usage number at 3 kW of 0.33 gallons per hour is 8 gallons in a 24 hour period. I hope to be abkle to operate on as little as 1 gallon in 24 hours and at a max maybe 2 gallons.
Tell me you can run a 6/1 Listeroid with a fuel flow of 0.11 gallons per hour for 24 hours and not have it wet stack and foul up. I really doubt that this large engine will tolerate that cold running for long.
I am not claiming higher efficiency. I have set up an engine that is 1/4 of the displacement of the Lister so that I can hopefully run it with 1/4 the fuel throughput per hour without wet stacking. A Listeroid 6/1 burns too much fuel in a day throttled up to 70% load for my very frugal fuel budget.
Also, I do not own a 6/1 yet and have been having trouble finding one I can afford. I was however able to obtain a JD175 engine which costs a lot less new.
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Ran the experimental plant again today with no load. This time I was able to get it to tick over smoothly at 375 RPM. There is a wide open exhaust port, not even a piece of pipe and this thing is pretty quiet now. The loudest noise is the diesel knock.
This is my very first low speed diesel! That relaxing sound is so kool! ;D
I plan to take my laptop out to the shop and record a .wav file of the sound of it starting and running.
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Sounds like an interesting set-up.
Just wondering...I don't know anything about the Chinese diesels that you are working with, however it's still an engine with a specific design, so...will it get enough lube at that slow of a speed? This will be quite different from idle, where a motor isn't (supposed to be) loaded, however yours will be working reasonably hard at that low rpm.
Though hardly a direct comparison, my GMC Sonoma has a Isuzu diesel that I put in it 4 years ago. After the first year, the first engine started smoking blue. So I found another engine, with 484,000kms showing on the clock, and put that in. After 2 years in there, it was getting sluggish and weak. Figuring it was near death, I found a third engine, claimed to have only 150,000kms on it. So, I decided to run engine #2 harder, as I have a tendency to lug it and drive it easy. After 6 months of that, it works like it did when I first put it in. It's now got over 550,000kms on it. The other engine (#3) is sitting in the corner of the garage, waiting for me to install it into a newer truck (someday!! ;D). So, my long-winded point/question to no-one is, will lugging this engine cause the same dilema to the JD?
For me, commom sense says No, why should it?, yet experience says Yes, it can.
Problem is, I don't listen to the voices in my head anymore! ;D :o
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Interesting project you got here RCA, I'd love to see some photos! I have 2 of these motors by ChangFa and really like the design. They are too loud for me to use for my Co-Gen project as I intended so I'm going to use a 6/1 listeroid instead. I think you could be on to something useful with this idea and look forward to more reports! I still hope to use my 175A's for something in the future. Leland
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Well for real world numbers. I've been running my rig 8 hours per day powering construction crews at our home site. During an average 8 hour day I use 1.25 gal of fuel. That is 0.156 gph and no problems with wet stacking or anything else. For part of the summer I was running a 50/50 mix of wvo and biodiesel. Again absolutely no problems running at this load.
I am running a thermostat though. It is a 180 that probably should be a 195 degree.
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Well for real world numbers. I've been running my rig 8 hours per day powering construction crews at our home site. During an average 8 hour day I use 1.25 gal of fuel. That is 0.156 gph and no problems with wet stacking or anything else. For part of the summer I was running a 50/50 mix of wvo and biodiesel. Again absolutely no problems running at this load.
I am running a thermostat though. It is a 180 that probably should be a 195 degree.
Tom,
Sounds like you have a good engine there! Please do not misunderstand what I say as in any way trying to demean or belittle the Lister or Listeroid. I seriously hope to own one myself ASAP. I am a natural born experimenter however and this seemed like an opportunity to answer a nagging question that no-one has been able to answer, and possibly fulfil a need I have at the same time for a very low fuel consumption generator.
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Interesting project you got here RCA, I'd love to see some photos! I have 2 of these motors by ChangFa and really like the design. They are too loud for me to use for my Co-Gen project as I intended so I'm going to use a 6/1 listeroid instead. I think you could be on to something useful with this idea and look forward to more reports! I still hope to use my 175A's for something in the future. Leland
I wish I could post the pics I now have. These Chinese singles sure are noisy alright used as delivered. Perhaps what I am doing will provide power with less acoustical discomfort. I like the design too and think the quality of the machining is very good for the money compared to what I see on the web in reports of the engines made in India.
I have said it before and I`ll say it here again. I wish a respected Chinese engine maker would start building a Lister 6/1 clone. If I had a chance to recommend any engineering improvements in the new clone I would like to see enclosed pushrods like the Petter design with an actively oiled top end, oil pump and screw on oil filter. With oil pressure how about a crossdrilled crank throw and pressurized lower rod bearing. Keep the TRB`s.
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I am a natural born experimenter however and this seemed like an opportunity to answer a nagging question that no-one has been able to answer, and possibly fulfil a need I have at the same time for a very low fuel consumption generator.
I think you will end up having to do what you do naturally - experiment.
The only way you will be able to answer this question is to actually run the thing over a lengthy period of time to see what happens.
For my totally off the cuff input - if you take a 1000 rpm engine and run it at 350 rpm you are likely to see oiling issues. I don't know what kind of lubrication your engine has but if for example it's splash lubrication you could make a different dipper. If it's a forced lube system you could add an electric oil pump. In other words, I think it should be do-able.
One other thing that I always wondered about - how is compression affected by the much slower rpm ? You get a certain amount of leakage past the rings and running slower you have more time for leakage to happen. I don't know at what level of wear this gets reflected in reduced efficiency or inability to run.
Jens
Your concerns about potentially inadequate oiling are valid. This is actually a 2600 RPM engine. I plan to run between 500 and 1000. This engine has an oil pump but I considered the oiling inadequate so designed a scoop type dipper/slinger which is attached to the bottom lower rod cap bolt. It works very well. With it I am not concerned about insufficient lube, certainly not above 500 RPM. Running no load today at 375 RPM was just a stunt to see if it would.
This indirect injection engine has a CR of 21-23:1. That will have to leak a lot before it drops to 16 to one where many diesels operate just fine.
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I have some pictures of my project here. Sorry about the large detailed images but at least I`m not hogging forum server space, they are hosted elsewhere.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/WHEELON1.JPG)
In this second photo the engine is actually spinning the flywheel running about 500 RPM.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/WHEELON2.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/FRAME2.JPG)
Here are a couple of detail pictures of the rubber damped coupler of my own design. There are three, 5/8 inch solid cold rolled steel pins attached to the engine side of the coupler riding coaxially in the center of each rubber section. The outer sleeve of which are each attached to the plate that bolts to the big flywheel. The nose of the large center pin which is an extension of the JD175A crankshaft is run in a bronze bushing in the large flywheel center hole. I obtained the solid rubber as a boat trailer bumper(?) from Princess Auto. It was just $5 and long enough to furnish all three copmponents, cut on a bandsaw and finished true on a belt sander. The balance of this assembly is very true.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/CPLR1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/CPLR3.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/CPLR5.JPG)
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Nice looking experiment! It will be interesting to see how the rod bearing holds up. Please keep us posted.
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SO cool
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Ooo---- I think I have a case of flywheel envy. Leland
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The main reason small displacement diesel engines run such high compression is so they can actually run....er,..that is, due to their small displacement, they don't generate much heat inside the combustion chamber if they run lower CR. So to make that heat, they squeeze the crap out of the air to make it hot enough to create auto ignition with the fuel. Larger cc diesels have a bigger area to create heat, and so don't need such a high CR.
Keep us well informed with your project. All the power to you for answering those questions in your own mind that others only talk about.
Be sure to move this experiment onto the secret lab, as I'm sure if Big Oil finds out you're successful, they'll come a'knockin! :o ;D
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The main reason small displacement diesel engines run such high compression is so they can actually run....er,..that is, due to their small displacement, they don't generate much heat inside the combustion chamber if they run lower CR. So to make that heat, they squeeze the crap out of the air to make it hot enough to create auto ignition with the fuel. Larger cc diesels have a bigger area to create heat, and so don't need such a high CR.
Keep us well informed with your project. All the power to you for answering those questions in your own mind that others only talk about.
Be sure to move this experiment onto the secret lab, as I'm sure if Big Oil finds out you're successful, they'll come a'knockin! :o ;D
Zack,
While i do not disagree with your statement about CR versus engine displacement I`ll just point out that the 1.5 and 1.6 litre, 4 cylinder VW Rabbit and Jetta diesels all run 23:1 CR and they are Indirect Injection. I had read that for a given displacement (in a small engine) the IDI needs higher CR than the DI.
Big Oil has their own better funded lab than I. They can do whatever they want, and do. B`sides, my overstressed engine will be a knockin way before they are! ;D
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Today I placed the DC generator I plan to use on the floor on some sheet cork so it would not wander and belted it up. Spinning the engine at about 600 RPM, I had the generator moving about 1800 and was making 500 watts DC into a 120 volt, 500 watt light bulb load. The engine was working hard and making a bit of black smoke at each bang. It wasn`t completely up to temperature although the water came to a boil in the cylinder jacket during the bried test which lasted a minute or two. I have no hopper or radiator on the engine just now so tests are short. The water jacket is filled with H20.
I have some bad news now. The center pins in my coupler apparently clobber the rubber so hard that they today split the rubber in all three sections. This happened during the low speed load test. This leads me to think I would be wise to only run this plant at the high end of the flywheel range, say at 1000 RPM. It will be easier on everything and the rod bearing will be treated more gently while being oiled the best. In that case I now know what pulley ratio I need to install. The ratio today was a bit aggressive, making the motor turn slower for the rated generator shaft speed desired. A worst case test. It appears that I need to re-engineer the rubber fill in the coupler. I think I have a workable solution to try.
Nothing like getting answers one needs by actually doing tests with the hardware. Some of you will recall that I`ve been asking this Can you run a China diesel slow? question here for about a year and no-one has come forward with any experience based answers whatsoever. Well now we`re gonna find out! If anyone out there would like to contribute financially towards my research which the results will be philanthropically given to the people of the world, I could use and would appreciate the assistance.
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Grand master RCA (grasshopper?)
The rubber splitting issue may just be a quality thing. I used to work in a firm that made boat rollers and they were made of the cheapest mix imaginable, combined with any leftover scrap. If I were you I'd try again, using better quality rubber.One avenue would be to use short lengths of a good quality hose, even if you have to place one length inside another to get the diameters. One of those red polyurethane boat rollers might be worth a try, although they are a little thermoplastic. This could be made worse by the generation of heat through hysteresis within the material itself.
Hell, don't give up so easily! I dream of having an engine that makes power at 100RPM! I just don't have anywhere near the dedication that you obviously have! :D
Best of luck
Brian
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If you are open for a suggestion, why not try some of the bushings that go in the eyes of leaf springs. What you've done looks about that size. On my Scout I use these neat polyurethane bushings with shoulders and are split in half.
Here is a sort of pic:
http://www.old.anythingscout.com/parts.php?zoom=92&fam_key=3&part_name=Poly+spring+bushings+II
OD is about 1 1/4 and id is about 5/8
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I second what Tom said. :D
Brian
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Don`t worry fellas, I`m not giving up. I said I had an idea. I was thinking of making the effective diameter of the 5/8 inch diameter cold rolled steel center pin larger by machining three tight fitting sleeves out of hard plastic like nylon. I would then stuff this into a thinner rubber bushing between it and the outer steel sleeve. The larger diameter of the center pin will spread the peak forces over a larger area making the pressure peaks on the rubber much lower.
The polyurethane bushings would be a good thing to try but I fear may be too stiff and also are definitely beyond my budget. I DID mention that I could use a little $ help. It is precisely because I have no money that I am trying desperately to build this.
Snail, If you want to make power at 100 RPM, from what I`m seeing here better make the stroke much larger than the bore.
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Here is a two minute sound file of my heavy flywheel loaded JD175 being hand crank started, run and then the rack is closed and it coasts to a stop. No muffler. 700 kB file size. Windoz Media Player
http://www.area31.org/sounds/jd175slo.wma
Would someone please tell me if this works for them Thanx.
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Yes, it works great for me
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Yeah, that sound file worked great for me too, uber kool!
I just started my old 195 engine that I bought back in '82, man, they are loud -- It had not been run in several years, but with fresh fuel run through the injection it started right up. Lots of stinky gray smoke for a bit, then it cleared.
As a cheap source for urethane for bushes you might look at boat rollers available at West Marine, the yellow ones machine very nicely!
moT
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I spent hours trying to get that sound file to work. Learning curve thing. I did not know that one cannot `copy` a sound file, but rather you have to `rip` it. Who knew? :-\
Thanx for the suggestions about boat rollers and rubber hose.
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BTW, there is a new Lister type engine being built in India that is even smaller than the hybrid Listers I brought in. They now have a new 4/1 that isn't posted on any of their web sites yet. The owner of the Satyajeet GM90 plant told me about this when he came over to visit with me a couple of months ago. I haven't seen any photos yet but it sure sounds interesting.
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BTW, there is a new Lister type engine being built in India that is even smaller than the hybrid Listers I brought in. They now have a new 4/1 that isn't posted on any of their web sites yet. The owner of the Satyajeet GM90 plant told me about this when he came over to visit with me a couple of months ago. I haven't seen any photos yet but it sure sounds interesting.
Not to send my own post OT but wasn`t the real Lister 3/1 exactly the same physical size as the 6/1 with just a smaller bore? That would be preferable to me in a clone than a completely miniaturized version of the CS engine. Also, smaller flywheels of the `new` 4/1 imply higher operating RPM. Except perhaps the Indians in Rakjot we all seem to know that when you stroke sandpaper faster the surface wears away faster. ???
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The mini Lister is its own beastie.
From the brand round up thread.
Hindustan Trading Co. “Mini-Listers”
HP/Cyl 6/1 8/1 10/1 12/1 14/1
RPM 650 850 1000 1000 1000
Bore 114.3 114.3 120 127 127
Stroke 133.3 133.3 133.3 133.3 133.3
Bolt space 305x204
Mini-Listers have different characteristics: All have TRB’s. 6/ and 8/1 are splash lubricated, others have oil pump. All have shorter stroke than “standard” listeroid. 10/1 may have Direct Injection, 14/1 is only available with Direct Injection.
All have a different foundation bolt pattern than the “standard” Listeroid. They are also lighter than the “standard”.
http://www.htcorporation.com/
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FROM Bob G.
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Re: A China diesel that you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2007, 10:32:38 PM »
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RCA:
been following your project, and finally got the audio file to work,, (kid and her myspace whacks out the puter)
some observations for what they are worth Smiley
1. i doubt seriously you will get a rubber/pin drive to live in this application, the shock loading is quite high
so if you want to use it, you probably need a very tough bushing
2. be sure and use a good quality straight weight oil, because as the engine is bringing that flywheel up to speed
the loading on the rod brg is going to be quite high.
3. the combination of difficulties in forming the hydraulic wedge at start up, along with the extreme loading
might cause significant longevity issues.
don't get me wrong,,, i understand what you are after,,but
from experience that hard knock that is heard is usually very short lived under normal circumstances
maybe a half dozen hard ones until it comes up to speed,, instead of dozens with the heavy flywheel.
some diesel engine's will destroy the rod brg, crack connecting rods, or break crankshafts from being lugged down
to under the designed parameters, who know's how much margin there is in a changfa style engine.
i am cautiously hopeful if not optimistic with this experiment, i just hope it doesn't cause costly damage.
perhaps a slack belt driven, jackshaft mounted flyweel would allow the engine some reduction in shock loading
on spin up,, i don't know.
something else to consider is the injection timeing in stock form is optimized for around 2500 plus rpm, not for
very low rpm, where the injection event is likely far too early resulting in excessive cylinder pressures.
if you can, you might look into slowing the injection timing a few degree's
you mention being on a tight budget,, i am not trying to rain on your parade,, only expressing a bit of caution.
perhaps after some testing you might pull the big end rod brg and inspect it for signs of stress?
interesting project overall though Smiley
bob g
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FROM Doug
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Re: A China diesel that you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2007, 10:54:48 PM »
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One of the mechanics at work said the same thing Bob....
However He thinks this can be overcome with some sort of load limiter for starting.
Injection timing might need to be adjusted as you said
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From Me.
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Re: A China diesel that you can take to a Listeroid party!
« Reply #5 on: Today at 01:30:29 AM »
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Bob, Doug,
Seems we are all on the same page here, unfortunately it is in the wrong thread, I wish you would keep the technical conversation going in the tech thread I started on this subject.
From dinking around with the timing by feel and by ear on my Petter single I learned that what you say is absolutely good advice and I fully agree. If I can back off the timing 2 or 3 degrees it ought to make a substantial reduction in the knock event and thus reduce peak main bearing loading. Unfortunately my JiangDong engine manual does not cover setting the FI pump timing. From what I know I suppose I could do it by placing a shim under the pump flange to pull the cam follower on the pump a few thousands of an inch farther away from the cam that drives the pump. I have some sheet copper that is 0.005 inches thick. That might work.
Does anyone know the proper way to set injection pump timing on the small Chinese diesels?
Thanx for the input guys! I really do appreciate it.
I am going to try to copy your two posts above over to the other one. Can we all work there from now on? Thanx.
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I think thats the only way to do it.
You PJ-1 has an adjuster, my DM10 has to be shimmed.
Copper/brass stock works, tincanium sheet also works.
This afternoon I will ask the great and wise wizzards of 7200 garage if they have any input and especialy how one could rig a load limiter
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I think thats the only way to do it.
You PJ-1 has an adjuster, my DM10 has to be shimmed.
Copper/brass stock works, tincanium sheet also works.
This afternoon I will ask the great and wise wizzards of 7200 garage if they have any input and especialy how one could rig a load limiter
Doug,
Correct, my Petter PJ-1 has an adjuster screw locked with a nut. I can tell you that as little as 1/8th of a turn makes a big difference in how the engine runs. The manual says to set the timing by IP `spill`. This involves partial disassembly of the pump, something I did not want to attempt. Instead I ended up timing by ear. Too much advance and it would bounce back against the hand crank.
I grabbed the Jiang Dong manual and had a good look through it last night. It DOES cover IP timing adjustment but only briefly. The method prescribed is as I had suggested, by changing or adding shims to under the pump flange. I`ll deal with this when I have to pull the side cover that exposes the timing gears to add weight to the flyblall governor.
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Your going to want to add....
Not sure how you spill time a little beastie like that.
Keep us posted!
Doug
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I got the shelf built that supports the big DC generator above the flywheel yesterday. This same shelf is going to hold my 2 kW AC gen head so that I have the option of getting AC power from the machine with a belt swap-over.
It occured to me that I may be able to use the battery bank that this plant will be charging to run the generator as a starting motor. If this motor has enough power it might spin the large flywheeel up to half speed before I initialize fuel and compression. That would build oil pressure prior to the BIG BANG. Heavy rod bearing starting loads would be drastically reduced!
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RCA:
i am a bit confused
why would you start another thread with the sound file if you did not want comment in that thread?
how was Doug and myself to know you expected comments to be added to your technical post and not to
the "party" thread?
geesh if you start a thread you gotta expect folks to post to it, so if you wanna keep the subject on track you
probably should lay out what you want and where you want it to start with?
personally i am just no good at reading minds! :)
bob g
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RCA:
i am a bit confused
why would you start another thread with the sound file if you did not want comment in that thread?
how was Doug and myself to know you expected comments to be added to your technical post and not to
the "party" thread?
geesh if you start a thread you gotta expect folks to post to it, so if you wanna keep the subject on track you
probably should lay out what you want and where you want it to start with?
personally i am just no good at reading minds! :)
bob g
You are right Bob. I should have been more specifically clear. I apologize for the confusion and distress that my clumsy post management has caused. I have just locked the other thread.
It is my clear intention that technical aspects of this project be discussed HERE.
Thanx.
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I've been thinking about this a lot......
Is there any way you can attach and centrifugal switch from a 1 phase induction motor to the DC generator or alterntor?
This could be used to cut out the starter motor or drivi a solenoid that holds back the fuel rack from full travel at start up.
I can't read minds Bob, but I am a peripheral vissionary.....
Doug
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I've been thinking about this a lot......
Is there any way you can attach and centrifugal switch from a 1 phase induction motor to the DC generator or alterntor?
This could be used to cut out the starter motor or drivi a solenoid that holds back the fuel rack from full travel at start up.
I can't read minds Bob, but I am a peripheral vissionary.....
Doug
The idea of a centrifugal switch is good. I shud explain that my starts are not going to be automated or remoted and I will be there in person to set the rack to a low position for a gentle start and only once up to speed adjust it to handle the load. The governor on the JD is unlike the one on the JP-1 Petter which puts the fuel rack in beyond wide open throttle as part of the start cycle. In my testing of the JD so far and on the audio file I shared of a start the rack was only partially opened for startup. That is partly why it takes so long to get up to speed. Full rack would undoubtedly be quicker but I wouldn`t want to do that to my lower rod bearing.
I spent another long day yesterday welding more steel to the frame as part of the genset mounting shelf. Both DC and AC heads are now perched in the operating position and I have begun looking at V-belt shieve options to get everything at the right speed. As we are talking only about 2-1/4 HP and smoothed too by the big flywheel where the belt runs I am confident that a single B belt will suffice. I plan large pulleys too, which will allow reduced belt tension and larger radius around the smallest pulley, the 7-1/2 incher for the 1800 RPM alternator head. I do not like the idea of using a V-belt when money could buy a serpentine flat belt option, but I don`t have that luxury at the moment. I can always upgrade later and pick up a bit of efficiency. This whole thing is very much an experiment so anything that saves the purchase of expensive hardware and materials at these early stages could be wise choices. My present choice of pulley sizes requires that I have a 13-1/2 inch shieve in stock for the driven pulley on the flywheel shaft. Must get to the shop today and see if I have such an aminal.
Looks like the frame, engine, large flywheel and two gen heads now put the weight of this beast at a guestimated 1000 pounds. That will go up as the cooling system and muffler are added and paint. ;)
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Raciing stripes on a stationary engine? I thought a stationary diesel racing was something to be very concerned over. ;D
Something those of you who listened to the audio file may have noticed. Because of the large amount of energy stored in the flywheel the unit kept spinning long after the fuel rack is closed. Here is a clever way to increase fuel economy. What I have here is a genset that you only have to run for 12 hours to get power out of it for 24 hours! What do you think of that? ;)
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Progress continues on the low speed genset. I have the belt drive system in place. I have the option of using various pairs of B-belts to either spin both genheads simultaneously, or either one individually. The tensioner is turned from solid aluminum billet and has two sealed ball bearings installed.
I had to rewire my Kohler AC head which also has a built in 12 VDC starter motor function and starting battery charger, so it would operate in reverse rotation. This starter really works well to spin the package up to a good speed priot to hitting the compression and fuel. I can build engine oil pressure this way prior to running.
The fuel tank is a modified 40 lb. (10 US gallon?) propane tank. I have it mounted on rubber vibration isolators.
All this has to come apart once the fitting is finished for frame cleanup and painting. It is coming along quite well!
(http://www.area31.org/photos/TENSION1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/TENSION2.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/TANKON1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/TANKON2.JPG)
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Progress continues on the low speed genset.
VERY nicely done !
A couple of questions on the fuel tank if I may - you say its on vibration isolators ? I can't see them.
What did you use for a fill spout - is it just a regular threaded pipe cap or is it a fuel tank cap ?
Jens
Thanx for the compliment. The rubber isolators are the grey-black cylindrical thingies between the angle iron rails brazed to the bottom sides of the tank and the main frame. They have a 3/8 inch bolt in each end. Four in total. I may upgrade to six because I like overkill. At least these are used in compression here. These are really hard to find but Princess had bags of ten on sale a year ago. I got three bags.
I just use a threaded end of two inch pipe. Since diesel or thick oil used as fuel does not create explosive vapors one can use a regular nodular black iron pipe cap with a tiny hole drilled as a vent. If you make a fuel tank like this for gasoline you are advised to obtain a special bronze pipe threaded cap. Bronze will not make a spark when striking steel.
I should add, the tank was completely filled with water except for a tiny air gap during all the brazing and cutting operations. I rotate the tank so the small air gap is directly below where I am using the torch so that the water does not sink the heat. Watch for pressure build up from steam! I would NEVER take a welder or torch to a empty propane bottle without water fill because the virtually guaranteed resultant explosion and personal injury is not high on my wish list.
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When I prepare a used propane tank I empty it if there is any fuel. I then hook up a vacuum pump and suck on it until all the burnable fuel is pulled out, I light the vacuum pump exhaust to burn off the fuel. Once the tank is outgassed I close the valve and invert it in a tank of water and open the valve. The tank fills right up. Now I have super safe tank to work on.
The fart smell won`t clear with 15 minutes on a vacuum pump however. You need to bake it out if you need that gone. If you just put diesel in it it will go away by itself.
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I run car exhaust into gas tanks for 10 minutes, then brazed/weld them with no problems at all. It takes oxygen for combustion, and so if there isn't enough, then no combustion can happen, so movie-type major horrific town-destroying explosions won't occur.
rca
Very nice work and interesting project, but what's going to happen when the farmer comes to your door with his shotgun, looking for his missing bailer flywheel? ;D :o ;)
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I run car exhaust into gas tanks for 10 minutes, then brazed/weld them with no problems at all. It takes oxygen for combustion, and so if there isn't enough, then no combustion can happen, so movie-type major horrific town-destroying explosions won't occur.
rca
Very nice work and interesting project, but what's going to happen when the farmer comes to your door with his shotgun, looking for his missing bailer flywheel? ;D :o ;)
I guess engine exhaust doesn`t add nearly as much weight to the tank. I filled a 200 galllon cylindrical fuel tank once to weld on it and while rolling it around on the gravel yard it wrinkled due to it`s own enormous weight. Good thing exhaust works because we won`t have water available for ever.
Regarding the flywheel. Weren`t you wondering why I was trying to hide it in the bowels of the machine with all the other peripheral equipment being attached? ;)
Thanx for the compliment.
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A repurposed discarded propane tank makes quite an attractive fuel tank as seen here now completely sandblasted and painted after modifications were done to suit the new task. The cap is a 2 inch NPT pipe cap with about half the weight shaved off on the lathe. It now looks a lot less like a plumbing fitting. I drilled a very tiny hole in it for airflow. Injector return fitting is at the top. Oulet is on the bottom not seen.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/TANK.JPG)
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rcavictim,
Earlier, you wrote: Since diesel or thick oil used as fuel does not create explosive vapors one can use a regular nodular black iron pipe cap with a tiny hole drilled as a vent.
Can you be sure that at no time in the future any fuel you use will not be contaminated by a small amount of more volatile fuel (gas?). If you can not be 100% sure, change to a brass cap (or plasic?). That way, it is idiot proof - lots of people fill their vehicles with the wrong fuel and it can easily be passed to an unsuspecting user. Not calling you the idiot but just the term for 'completely safe in any eventuality for any person'
A bit like transfer switches for electrical change-over from mains to generator - needs to be idiot proof. 100%. Not even just 99.9% or 99.99% - that odd probability (low as it may be) could occur at the next operation......
Be as safe as you can - that insurance inspector will (or should) spot it. Hopefully, before there is a claim.
Regards, RAB
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rcavictim,
Earlier, you wrote: Since diesel or thick oil used as fuel does not create explosive vapors one can use a regular nodular black iron pipe cap with a tiny hole drilled as a vent.
Can you be sure that at no time in the future any fuel you use will not be contaminated by a small amount of more volatile fuel (gas?). If you can not be 100% sure, change to a brass cap (or plasic?).
Regards, RAB
RAB,
Your point is well taken and is cause for me to stop and think where else I have used iron pipe caps for fuel tanks as well. Thank you for the observation.
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Just somethig to consider when blending fuel with gasoline or other solvents.
Gas doesn't cause trouble in a car because it too rich to burn.
Diesel doesn't blow off enough vapour under most conditions to be a problem
Mixing gas and oils can create a combination that will inbetween that upper and lower ignition level.
I work in aplace where the average temperature is high enough that opening my fuel tank cap and I see a fine mist of fuel. refueling means being just as sure with diesel (if its realy hot) as gas that there are no sources of ignition.
Several years ago a well heated robotic scoop tram misjudged its location on the way to a an ore pass where I work. It did a swan dive down the ore pass and ripped open its fuel and hydraulic tanks and even though the fuel was diesel there was still enough mist and vapour created It was a perfect storm hot fuel spraying around, lots of air and plenty of sparks and hot sufarces as an ignition point.
Low level KA-BOOM, large fire.....
Doug
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for what its worth :)
i don't know what pipe nipple size you chose to use, but
i can't remember which it is, but mid size trucks and some heavy trucks use a brass cap that fits either a
1.5 or 2 inch pipe nipple,, iirc it is a 2"
the upside to useing one is they have lead plugs in them that allow for venting in case of a fire, they melt out
and keep things from really getting exciting
they also make vent units that screw into a 1/4 inch pipe thread hole, that are anti tip in that if the tank rolls over it won't leak
but in normal operation will vent and keep the internal pressure normalized,, they are pretty inexpensive
if you are going to use the iron cap, i would suggest drilling a couple of holes in it and then refilling the holes with lead as
a safety, or you could chamfer the holes on each side and hammer a piece of lead into them to provide sealing and also allow them to
blow out if there is a pressure buildup.
in any case if you have a violent explosion within the tank, no safety cap or vent is going to save you in my opinion :)
inspirational project though, looks good :)
folks like you, make me want to get off my dead ass and get to assembling!
bob g
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Gee I'm so sorry to hear your ass died Bob.
But life must go one, get yourself a banjo and burry your ass before it starts to stink.
Very strange, I can't realy see you riding around on an ass unless it was a realy big one.....
So did you have a name for your ass?
Was it a nice friendly ass?
You know in hind sight I guess I realy could see you gently washing and brsushing your ass'es fur....
Reaching aroud to offer it a sugar cube now and then when you go take a ride.....
Oh well life goes on.
Jsut the same you have my condolences a nice ass is hard to find these days
Doug
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for what its worth :)
folks like you, make me want to get off my dead ass and get to assembling!
bob g
Bob sorry to hear about the death of your ass.... was it a good ass? did it follow you around on your walks? Are you experiencing any separation anxiety?
I did this in all seriousness, I did not mean to be cheeky, or disrespectful :D
In your state of separation, I hope things are not piling up
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You guys are goofy. Don`t ass me how i know.
Bob,
I use 2 inch NPT nipple. That is indeed the same size as the truck fuel tanks you spoke of and I do have two of those bronze screw on caps in that thread with the four leaded plug holes. They are off the big gasoline tanks from my GMC 5-ton straight truck. There`s one being used on the big tank on my Petter plant in my avatar but it is hiding on the other side.
Why are you guys all paranoid all of a sudden of diesel tank explosions. That rarely happens outside of a movie set in Hollywood. Remember the White Freightliner black tow truck in Terminator-2? Yeah right! :D That guy must have been running his diesel on 100-130 avgas.
Much more progress done in the past few days. Must post more pics.
I ran it up to 750 watts output tonight at 1000 RPM on the kohler AC head with the muffler just installed. It sounds good. Quiet. The diesel knock is quite subdued. That`s gotta be approaching 3/4 power at 1000 RPM as I figure it. It seems to find the groove at I`m guessing about 750- 800 RPM. At 1000 it is really smooth and sounds happy. Practically no vibration at all. I have it up on 5 inch bakelite castor wheels and if it wanted to shake, it would.
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Don't make light of the situation Bob says his sitting on his dead ass.
I guess he needs some closer, can't let go right now.
I get the feeling he was very close to that ass.
I'm not paranoid about fuel oil. Infact I think its the safest fule you can buy
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OK, back on topic. Here is what I have so far. Brand new wheels man! Honda stainless steel muffler like new ( dump score). Nice and quiet, little back pressure. The big box frame will allow me to install lifting eyes, and a safety grille over the open belt pulleys and belts. It`s dangerous at that end of the plant! Can install flat sound absorber covers if I wish later on. I still have room for a staring battery and anothe fuel tank. The tiny factory tank on the JD175 is gonna go.
The water puddle on the floor is overflow from the cooling jacket during my brief test. The radiator is not yet hooked up. No point as everything has to come off for cleaning/ sandblasting/ prepping the frame and painting it very soon.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/NEARDUN1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/NEARDUN2.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/NEARDUN3.JPG)
I`ve been trying to figure out what color I should paint the frame. I am leaning towards forest green, same as on the engine and Kohler head currently. All three belt pulleys same dark green. Radiator black of course. What do you fellas think? I don`t want to hear racing stripes. :D If a graphic artist makes me a cute logo with a turtle spinning a treadmill with a flame shooting out it`s ass, I`ll use that! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I also need to name this machine. I like the sound of the ULTOR-1000 Home Freedom Power ProcessorTM My audio company marquee is UltorTM and 1000 is both the RPM and the watts out, conservatively. I could call it the DREADNAUGHT 1000, or my long haired machinist friend Peter might appreciate it if I called it a TELEFUNKEN U47 in honor of Frank Zappa. ;D
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Guys just remember, the military uses DIESEL in its armoured vehicles because it does not explode and it is hard to ignite
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my only concern with a safety cap is not from explosive forces within, but
in the event of a fire within the building that houses the fuel tank
if there is no pressure relief you will get an explosion of hollywood proportions!
if you don't believe this, take a small metal can such as a quart with a twist on cap
fill it with diesel maybe half way, screw on the lid
put it in a 55 gallon drum loaded with wood scraps or other combustibles and set it afire
stand back and wait!
the heat will bulid up, start to boil the fuel, pressure up the can until it fails
and a rather violent explosion will occur sending a mushroom fireball skyward
now if the same experiment was run using a lead filled safety cap, the lead would fail venting off the pressure
and while there would be some scary flames, it would not explode.
if not for yourself, think of the poor fireman that has to deal with your little engine shed in the event of a fire.
while it is generally true that diesel is not explosive, there are circumstances where it can be very much so.
bob g
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Guys just remember, the military uses DIESEL in its armoured vehicles because it does not explode and it is hard to ignite
I guess you didn't see the post before about Terminator 2 ...of COURSE diesel explodes. All you have to do is spill out cool diesel fuel onto concrete and MAN!! what an explosion. Yet you can grind a poor little S10 against a guard rail with an 18 wheeler at 55 mph and...nothing. Even with sparks-o-plenty. I guess the time wasn't right
Ya gotta love Hollywood.
Diesel vapourized is VERY explosive (don't ask how I know), however I'd much rather a large tank of diesel in my garage than a small can of gas. If my garage is on fire, I don't want to be near it because of all the OTHER explosive stuff in it, like paint cans, 3 gallons of brake cleaner, flashlight batteries, etc.
rca
Nice assembly and construction. I envy you. I was looking at the pics and thinking, for $170 at Walmart, you can get a 1000w generator that you can carry. Yet given the chance, I'd soon do what you did than buy the Walmart throw-away. I have a 7hp Onan diesel on a metal frame I welded together that someday I'm going to mount a 1949 Faibanks-Morse 3kw head on, and the head alone is about the size of a 3kw generator complete. Why? Because the construction is enjoyable and the whole unit will be good for a LOT of ours, however NOT liftable by the handle. No one will wanna steal it, or could even if they wanted to.
How about : Scorpion 1000 GyroGen
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ZackaryMac,
Thanx for the compliments. I am lucky to have a shop and tools to be able to do this kind of thing. It was a long time gathering the bits and pieces needed. When my parts collection including the steel finally reached critical mass it was time to get busy and build it.
You should get to that Onan diesel and FM generator head project. You will feel good once it is done and working for you.
Scorpion 1000 GyroGen sounds like a fine name. I`ll let you use it. I have named mine already. Ultor1000.
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I have named mine already. Ultor1000.
How pretentious ...... mine is simply named "Thumper"
It's a simple machine from simple days - a geewhiz name just isn't right ..... IMHO
Jens
Simple time didn`t have racing stripes back then Jens. Your criticizm is inconsistent but I`ll take it as a compliment. When all they can complain about is the name it must be that all the important details have passed muster. ;)
I`ve registered Ultor as a trademark for stuff I build. No point letting the decals go to waste.
Haven`t you heard? What is old is now new! :D
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RCA
couldn't sleep last night, and was surfin around and came up on your setup again
an observation for what it is worth
make and install an air intake safety shutdown for your engine
in the event that the chinese governor fails for whatever reason and you have a runaway
i don't think you want that flywheel spinning up to 3 or 4 k rpm.
i am fairly certain it would not only wreck your day, your machine, but maybe you or a loved one
or maybe even the neighbor you don't get along with.
for some reason, i had this nagging thing in the back of my mind and then it dawned on me
many years ago as a kid i built a twin engine gokart
in my haste i threw together all my gearing and got it wrong
it was an excersize in ultra slow speed operation
the engines never got up to even a low idle, more like a plung.. plung... plung
and the damn thing was going so fast down the street it was pulling the tears out of my eye's!
if it had actually got up to a fast idle i am sure i would have met an untimely death. :)
God protects idiots and children,,, (i was both and idiot and a child)
by the time we get to be adults, i personally think God just sits back and watches the mayhem unfold :)
anyway the moral of the story,, be safe
i really dread the day we learn of our first serious injury or death on this forum.
on a lighter note
i know you have been designing and working on this for some time, what are your intentions for the unit?
is it primarily a testbed? or are you planning on using it on a more or less daily basis?
bob g
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RCA
couldn't sleep last night, and was surfin around and came up on your setup again
an observation for what it is worth
make and install an air intake safety shutdown for your engine
in the event that the chinese governor fails for whatever reason and you have a runaway
i don't think you want that flywheel spinning up to 3 or 4 k rpm.
i am fairly certain it would not only wreck your day, your machine, but maybe you or a loved one
or maybe even the neighbor you don't get along with.
for some reason, i had this nagging thing in the back of my mind and then it dawned on me
many years ago as a kid i built a twin engine gokart
in my haste i threw together all my gearing and got it wrong
it was an excersize in ultra slow speed operation
the engines never got up to even a low idle, more like a plung.. plung... plung
and the damn thing was going so fast down the street it was pulling the tears out of my eye's!
if it had actually got up to a fast idle i am sure i would have met an untimely death. :)
God protects idiots and children,,, (i was both and idiot and a child)
by the time we get to be adults, i personally think God just sits back and watches the mayhem unfold :)
anyway the moral of the story,, be safe
i really dread the day we learn of our first serious injury or death on this forum.
on a lighter note
i know you have been designing and working on this for some time, what are your intentions for the unit?
is it primarily a testbed? or are you planning on using it on a more or less daily basis?
bob g
Bob,
Your concern about an overspeed condition is appreciated and already being dealt with in `the plan`. It is not hard to place a ball valve on the intake air on this engine and that is precisely what I plan to do. How to activate it is what I am still thinking about. Having a spring that is `locked and loaded` ready to pull the valve lever closed when a small pin is pulled out seems to be the easiest and most reliable way to store the energy needed for this important operation. Now the question. What process to pull the small pin?
A small tachometer generator and a voltage comparator circuit could be used to activate a small solenoid powered by the plant`s on board 12 volt starting battery. One could set up a frequency counter on the AC output of the plant set to trip off at say 75 Hz. Having more than one trip mechanizm would be good for improved safety. I would like a all mechanical, symple system in there as well if possible. A centrifugal clutch mounted on the engine shaft which will pull on the pin as the outer housing receives rotational torque might be a simple way to do this.
I am going to all this trouble because I plan to actually use this on a more or less daily basis once I get off-grid. A machine like this is not available on the commercial market. Everything out there remotely similar uses much more fuel per day than this plant will. Having a large battery bank as I do now is key to being able to use a low power plant like this to work in addition to a wind turbine and maybe solar photovoltaic.
I can DIY a suitable wind turbine and where I live I have the wind resource. Unfortunately I cannot make solar photovoltaic cells myself so acquisition of that power source will take serious money, a resource not presently available to me.
I have no plans to manufacture copies of my `invention` for sale.
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Ok, speed-related shut-off:
Cut out of 1/4" plate and weld together a shroud, not unlike a squirrell cage fan has (propane hot water heater vent fan, for ie), starting close and curving away from the bailer flywheel, extending out into a heavy steel tube, curled around to near the intake of the diesel. Now, have a ball valve attached to arms, so tipping this assembly will hinge the ball over on top of the open intake (forget the air filter), choking off the air. Aim this tube at the ball valve.
Theory is, when the engine over-speeds and shrapnel from the cast flywheel starts coming off at 10,000 rpm, it will safely be carried away through the tube, where it will hit the back of the ball valve, encouraging it to come over center and fall onto the open intake, thus reducing available oxygen for combustion, and therefore causing the engine to stop turning. Also, because of the loss of some of the flywheel mass, the whole thing should come to a quicker stop.
;D
I'm always full of ideas.
I never said any of them were GOOD ideas. :D
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Went to a junk yard and poked around some dead fords. Early 90's or late 80s Taurus' etc. Looked in behind the left (drivers side) rear taillight, and found the cutoff switch. It's a little black box with 2 wires coming out of it, and a red button on it. Inside is a cone, with a steel ball bearing inside the cone. At the top of the cone is a shut off switch. When the little black box (1.25" cube??) gets bounced around (as in an accident) the steel ball bearing gets bounced up and hits the switch shutting off the power. This is meant to shut off a fuel pump in the case of an accident. This same little black box could be glued to any piece of machinery and hooked up to a solenoid through a relay so that it would activate something like a fuel lever in the case of too much vibration etc.
To reactivate the switch you have to push the red button.
Just my 2 cents (Canadian, that's like 3.5 cents US ;D ) worth
Stan
Sorry, just had to add that last part, too many years of taking it the other way.
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Removable safety screen now installed over beltway. Same diamond mesh panel on radiator frame exterior as well.
Some nice person left a whole 4x8 foot sheet of this material at the dump for me. A little surface rust doesn`t scare me! ;D
(http://www.area31.org/photos/SCREEN1.JPG)
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Thanx so much for the engineering ideas. An excessive vibration shutdown may not be a bad idea but would not substitute for an overspeed shutdown which IMO is much more important. A bit of vibration will not potentially cause property damage and injury like a grenading flywheel.
With BobG bringing this to the forefront of my mind today I have come up with a plan I like that employs a centrifugal clutch to pull the ball valve release pin. I have room to implement it nicely. I suspect I will have to fabricate my own from scratch as the commercial ones for go-carts do not have a ball bearing, just a bronze bushing. Not 100,000 hour rated, so no good. They also chatter, also unnacceptable.
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Well I am pleased to report that all the frame welding and fabrication is done, the prep work done, painted forest green a couple of days ago. Yesterday I painted the big flywheel and thought it might look nice red in the center and chrome silver on the outer roll. I had bought a can of so called `bumper chrome` spray paint a couple of years ago and this seemed like a place to try it. BIG DISAPPOINTMENT! The finish doesn`t look much more like real chrome than ordinary aluminum spray paint at half the price. I discovered that the finish was very easy to mark up and was not resistant to solvents. My equipment needs tough paint finishes that will endure normal wear and tear thank you very much. OK so today I washed off the silver paint and it got a fresh coat of International Harvester Red. I think it looks good. I decided to go with red for all the parts that move, so the belt shieves, damping coupler, both flywheels, fuel tank filler cap, etc., all get the red treatment.
Speaking if the damping coupler. My very limited testing totally destroyed the rubber bushings and broke the weld on all three pins. There are some fierce peak forces happening between flywheel `A` the stock one on the engine, and flywheel `B` the big one after the coupler. I had a head scratch and rebuilt the thing with larger diameter pins (up from 1/2 inch to 1 inch diameter) to spread out the load on the rubber. I also discovered that the rubber I had used had air voids in it. Hopefully the new rubber inserts I have machined are void free.
I realized I have a radiator hose connection placement problem today and that has to be rotated and re-soldered. :( It hits the fuel tank.
I still need to clean up and re-paint the DC gen head, install the exhaust system (already fabricated) and install the fuel shut off valving and filter under the big tank. With some luck I should have this running this weekend, looking for the most part all finished except for the electrical power wiring and control panelboard.
I`ll post more pictures with a report in a few days.
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Today I got the old paint and rust off the DC generator head and a nice fresh coat of Forest green paint on it. The brush gear has now been serviced and lubricated, working freely and smoothly (all four brushes were siezed). DC head is now installed. Exhaust system is now installed.
Next I want to tackle the radiator upper hose port modification, install the cooling system and fuel system.
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Wow, this project keeps you busy.
Any idea how many hours you've got into it now?
Don't make it too good or you'll have nothing to do when it's done! ;D
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Wow, this project keeps you busy.
Any idea how many hours you've got into it now?
Don't make it too good or you'll have nothing to do when it's done! ;D
Zac,
Truth is I`m doing nothing else until this is done. No trouble with idle time afterwards, I have some resto work to do next in my house basement in prep allowing for some flood claim insurance work. As for hours invested, very tons.
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Got the plant finished to the point where I could fill the cooling system with antifreeze, clip lead lamp loads to both DC and AC heads and let `er rip. It was bloody c-c-c-cold out here last night and with the big shop door wide open for the exhaust smoke to escape I found myself worn out and freezing early after about 2 hours of running tests so I packed it in with a bunch of data for my brain to digest. This was after a long day of working on all the last minute assembly and fixes. The cooliing system had a major leak and now still has two tiny ones. One because that white brush-on Permatex thread sealer ain`t worth a shit IMO. It lets me down EVERY time I try to use it, so those connections have to come apart after draining the entire cooling system -again- and using teflon tape like I should have in the first damned place. >:(
First off. The DC generator was not co-operating and had to be flashed with a 50 VDC power supply and the field and armature connections transposed to get it to propduce power now spinning backwards to it`s previous life. Fortunately this was accomplished with success and it runs very nicely. Likewise but dealt with earlier, the AC head and combo starter motor had to be taught to operate backwards. It runs like a champ. OK, so both heads are up and working! :)
My upgraded damping coupler version Beta seems to be working nominally and did not exhibit any signs of distress like the previous Alpha version. Good! :)
I discovered that this little engine, with factory injection timing setting and fully warmed up is incapable at 1060 RPM of delivering more than about 600 watts AC when both heads are belted up and only load is placed on the AC head. At 600 watts it was belching huge amounts of black carbon smoke. This was a large disappointment. With a belt change to spin only the AC head I could get ~700 watts with some smoke. It appears that the power required to spin the two heads (windage and bearing losses) and the belt friction, adds up to be a significant fraction of my available engine shaft horsepower. A more efficient belt drive may be worth looking into, or not. The extra money may be better served on a large displacement engine. I am a bit disappointed so far. :(
With only the DC generator belted up I have to start the plant with the hand crank. No problem. It was immediately obvious that the DC head is more mechanically efficient and 600 watts DC at 115 volts was obtained with no smoke at what I had to guestimate was the same ~1050 RPM. I really need to implement a tach right away. Without the AC head belted up running a frequency meter I cannot accurately determine my RPM. Since I am spinning in the max safe area of the big flywheel capability I need to be closely and accurately aware of RPM. This DC gen has been slowed via pulley size to run at 1500 RPM versus the nameplate 1750 where it is rated at 125 volts and 20 or so amps. At the reduced speed I was able to get it to make a max of 115 volts across my 600 watt incandescent lamp load but only with the field resistor completely dialed out (full field), This is fine since my primary raison d`etre for this plant is to make about 58 volts actually for a remote 48 volt battery bank, and that is the reason I went with larger drive shieve to more efficiently match the engine. I plan to load test the DC today and determine power ouput capability and regulation range available with the field resistance while maintaining 60 volts into resistive loads.
I am going to conduct a one hour fuel use test, likely with the DC head at 500 watts and again with the AC head making 500 watts (if it can without smoke). If my fuel consumption numbers are not stellar I will have a stab at retarding the injector timing. If that does not improve things I will need to do a major re-evaluation of this entire project.
In order to calculate the size shim to place under the FI pump which I will need to fabricate in order to retard the injector event I have to pull the engine timing case and measure the stroke change of the pump on its camshaft with a magnetic base dial gauge. The 6 HP@2600 RPM engine timing spec from the factory is 22 degrees, + or - 2 degrees. That means anywhere from 20-24 degrees BTDC right now if believable. I am thinking perhaps four degrees might be a ballpark to shoot for. This is an IDI precup engine. My GM-90 manual calls for 18 to 22 degrees BTDC and that is for 6-10 HP singles running between 650 and 1000 RPM. On that my four degrees sounds like a good first target. Anyone have a good feel for this?
Pics will follow hopefully later today. Even if it cannot do what I want....damn it sure looks impressive! 8)
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I had mentioned that the severe shock of the ignition event being transfered through the coupler from the small engine stock flywheel to the large 180 pound flywheel had pounded out my first attempt at a coupler. This damage seen occurred in just minutes of running with out load. The original pins were 1/2 inch Cold Rolled Steel and the new ones are 1 inch diameter. The rubber was obtained from Princess Auto as part of a boat trailer bumper roller. When machining the new parts I noted air voids hidden in the rubber. This added in great part to the failure of the Alpha coupler. I beive that the rubber I have in the Beta version is much less compromised by voids in the material after finding a `good piece` to machine. In the first photo you can see that as the coupler is separated the pins have actually broken free and two stayed in the rubber. These were all welded to the engine side originally. All three welds broke.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/DAMAGE1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/DAMAGE2.JPG)
Here is the improved Beta version ready to be pushed together. As reported in my previous First Light post above, the Beta coupler appears to be working very well! This coupler is of my own design and I give it here freely to the DIY community as a gift. I think there are applications where a Lovejoy would not be as well suited.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/FIXDCPLR.JPG)
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rcavictim
Sorry about your breakdown.
About the timing, it is more of a science than anything. I have done extensive calculations on that subject and your 4 degrees retarded seem about right. If you were pulling a constant heavy load from your DC system you could get away with 6 or more degrees for "maximum reliability".
This would minimize the shock load placed on the internal components and external accessories. The constant load would keep the cylinder pressures and tempatures high enough to not cause a concern with carbon buildup. The variable load AC is another story and you might want to stick with the said 4 degrees.
Good luck
Diesel Guy
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With my Kubota 4hp Diesel, it was already mated to a car alternator, as it was part of a flashing arrow sign. I belted in a 1500w ac head from an old military generator that was converted to run with a pulley. As soon as I started the engine I could notice an increased load on the engine, which I expected, but not this much. Not a smoke-inducing load, however it was more than I guessd at first. I never did do a load test to give you any specs, but it will start the blower on my wood furnace (1/4 hp I believe), and that's about it. Once running of course it's not a problem. Not really enough juice to properly run a skill saw under load - 1500w would barely do it, and I know I'm not making the full 1.5kw.
I wonder if I put a truck alternator on there, removed the AC head, and ran an inverter if it would be more efficient. I have a 1000w/2500w surge inverter on it now, but melted the diodes out of one alternator already overloading it.
I hope your project works out for you. That engine wasn't designed to run that slow so it may take some extra work to make it cooperate.
Keep us posted. :)
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That engine wasn't designed to run that slow so it may take some extra work to make it cooperate.
Keep us posted. :)
That in a nutshell describes my project very well! :D
Thanx for the coroboration on the 4 degrees diesel guy! I think I may try retarding the timing before I do the proposed two hour fuel economy testing today, to save wear and tear. I`d like to feel safer opening the rack up full at the slowest anticipated speeds, not just at 1050. This thing sounds so cool at 500 RPM. You Lister/oid owners know what I`m talkin` about. 8)
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Hello to every one just looking at the pic's of the coupling you made it looks very much like the ones found on an Otis Elevator to atach the moter to the hoist unit. Thay are I thank used on other drives as well. We found that the rubber inserts woud go away after a while lots of stoping and starting under load thay stoped using them some years ago. Tom T
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Here is a picture of the mostly completed plant from the pulley and exhaust outlet side. That safety screen earned it`s keep first run today. I had been playing with a piece of exhaust pipe slipped over the muffler outlet to get the exhaust farther from where I was working and it fell off and the end whacked into the screen harmlessly instead of entangling itself in the rapidly spinning pulley spokes and belts!!!!
(http://www.area31.org/photos/NEARDUN7.JPG)
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First thing I did today before running fuel consumption tests was to increase the shim thickness behind the FI pump flange from 0.033 inch to 0.056 inch. That is almost as much as adding a second factory gasket as a spacer. How much this delayed my timing in actual degrees I do not know as I was unable to get my dial indicator to ride the pump cam without making a special extension and I had more important use planned for my precious time today.
In running tests today after retarding the injector timing it seemed happy enough and was able to tick over incredibly slow, no load very smoothly. We are talking like 150-200 RPM slow. Anyhow, about 40 run minutes into the 1050 RPM loaded testing the diesel knock suddenly started getting really loud and climbing in intensity very rapidly. I was right there and closed the rack within seconds. As soon as fuel was shut off the bad noise instantly ceased. When fuel was re-applied the death knock reappeared. I shut the engine down leting it coast. I took note that I had full normal oil pressure at the time of the knocking event. Just before the engine stopped revolving I closed the compression lever and the knock returned under piston compression only load. Hmmmm.
I removed belts separating the gen heads to aid diagnosis. The engine rotated as smoothly as before making no untoward noises while being rotated by hand, except for a curious cklink sound at one spot on the rotation that I only became aware of as separate from normal engine sounds I had always heard before while rotating slowly by hand. If this was a lower rod bearing tightness there would be problems felt. Also I would not expect the rod bearing to fail so suddenly. I began to fear the worst, that I had developed a crack in the crankshaft. :( Pulling the inspection door all looked fine. Hand wiggling the con rod the lower bearing appears to be absolutely fine. After many minutes of careful inspection with a powerful flashlight and rocking the flywheel around by hand I noticed that one of the large pins in my DIY coupler has once again broken it`s weld. This appears to be the site where the metallic death knock was occuring. I called it quits at this point as I am totally burnt out after working long and odd hours on this thing.
My pause has given me a chance to re-evaluate what I am doing. I am now armed with actual operational test data from which to base my decision on how best to proceed.
The bad news is I am giving up running the JD175A at 1050 RPM. Not enough power and it appears that today I broke another pin weld on my Beta coupler despite retarding the injector timing and am absolutely dumbfounded as to how this is occuring. Perhaps in small flywheel-rubber-large flywheel I have inadvertently created a resonant system with unequal weights on each end of a spring. Whatever it is, it is clearly a problem and looks like the peak forces threated to do serious damage to other components, most likely my small flywheel to engine crank interface and the engine itself. Must modify the design!
More bad news is... I did a fuel efficiency test on the AC gen head and I get a rate of 0.75 Litres per kWh with a 500 watt output which is near max capable output. That is terrible fuel efficiency! My VW plant gets about 0.33 Litres/kWh. It is also just not enough power for the investment of hardware here, or my needs. I was expecting twice this. My generator heads individually have 4X that as continuous ratings.
I have devised a plan to install an intermediary shaft and another set of belts for about 2:1 reduction from the engine to the big flywheel shaft. I will be able to run the engine at ~2000-2200 RPM and get full AC power rating output from my AC head as well as the DC head (individually) and still have the huge flywheel running at 1050 RPM to give the set high surge load capability (especially important on a low powered genset IMO). That would allow me to run an air conditioner off this. Without the big flywheel I`d never get the compressor to start. Fortunately my modification can be done with no changes to what is done now except removal of my trouble prone coupler.
The success of this idea depends on having enough room where the coupler is now for the factory supplied 2 belt shieve. I have not measured yet but I know it will be close. Actually I might grab a gimler timing belt and toothed pulleys from an automobile 4-cylinder engine cam shaft drive. They give 2:1 reduction and a small engine timing belt, 1 inch wide may be is about the right length center to center for where this is gonna go. That would really cut down on the loss I`d get from another set of V-belts!!!! I just thought of this and I like the idea over V-belts even if it means yet a bunch more lathe and shop work.
I need to look at the plant tomorrow and see what room I have to add the reduction jackshaft system and get started on the upgrade. Once done I will have a plant that much better utilizes the capability of the little JD175A engine, has extra power in reserve to overcome the V-belt drive losses, will operate at a speed where the engine is most efficient, and provides decent output power fully utilyzing the capability of the heavy duty quality generator heads now installed.
So...the saga continues.....
There will now be a short intermission.
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Have you looked into DIY cast in place, polyurethane bushings ? They may not solve your broken pin problem, but will be much tougher than any rubber bushing. Or, look for some polyurethane bushings for automotive shocks, that are close to the right size to drop in.
As to the welds breaking, maybe it's the filler wire you use, is too brittle, maybe another type will hold up better, or maybe post weld annealing may help ? If they can weld 20" armor on a battle tank, there is a weld technique that would hold the pins on (and their matching sockets) if you get the right filler metal.
Maybe a larger pin, tapped internally, and bolted to your counterbored plate, and then welded ? Does the weld break, or the pin metal ?
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pehaps you can get away without welding
you might try a shouldered wheel stud such as used on hd semi trailers with inboard drums
the come in all sort of sizes and have a nice collar, you slip it thru your drive, torque up the nut
and then the stud sticks out the other side into your rubber bushings
some are quite long so you can cut off the exposed thread end and get to a clean section or
what is about 3/4 " in dia, if i recall
being grade 8, they will take alot of beating without failing
pretty cheap too
bob g
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Thanx for the suggestions but you guys are missing the point. The engine has insufficient power by a large margin at the low speed. I mentioned that I was expecting almost twicw what I was seeing. On top of insufficient power the fuel economy was in the toilet. The ONLY solution is to increase the RPM into the region for which this small engine was designed to operate in.
Today I came up with a simple and elegant solution that is so slick it looks like I designed the plant this way in the first place. I need to build another bearing equipped belt idler tesioner, and put the injection pump timing back where it was and I`m done. The new plan uses the factory supplied 3.9 inch twin B vee belt pulley bolted up to the engine flywheel in the space between the two flywheels where the troublesome coupler was. From this pulley two B-belts head upwards to a 5.75 inch dual belt pulley on the rear unused shaft of the DC gen head. The alignment of this path is perfect! The gen head acts as the intermediary shaft to get the power to the front Vee belts that tie the two heads and large flywheel all belted together. Operating the JD175A at 2200 RPM will get me 1050 RPM on the big wheel, 1800 on the AC head and 1500 RPM on the DC head. Perfect!
I expect full nameplate AC power of 2 kW and huge starting reserve current and no lamp flicker thanx to the big flywheel . Ditto for the DC head. If the AC head is not needed I can pull the front belt and the DC head is belted directly to the engine for max efficiency by shedding extra belt and windage losses. I can belt the big flywheel to only the DC head if desired as well, ignoring the AC head entirely.
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And for exrta boost, particularly at start-up, when trying to get that big flywheel to speed, you can give 'er large doses of ether to wake it up...y'know, like nitrous, but not nearly that complicated!! ;D :o
Spray a bunch into a cup and splash it into the open intake. No really, it'll be great!!! ;D
(In case someone reading this actually thinks it a good idea, IT'S JUST A JOKE! - well, you never know...)
Just trying to keep your sense of humour up, rcavictim.
It didn't work like you thought, but you gained a lot from the experience, for future projects. Now you're the guy that KNOWS, not a guesser (like me, anyway).
I'm envious of your construction capabilities. I usually cobble stuff together that sort of works but looks like it was thrown out 20 years before. :P
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Just trying to keep your sense of humour up, rcavictim.
It didn't work like you thought, but you gained a lot from the experience, for future projects. Now you're the guy that KNOWS, not a guesser (like me, anyway).
I'm envious of your construction capabilities. I usually cobble stuff together that sort of works but looks like it was thrown out 20 years before. :P
Thanx for the compliments Zack.
As you may recall I had been attempting to coax anyone who might have experience with running China diesels at slow speed out of the woodwork for quite some time with no real luck. I had to take the DIY approach to discover the pitfalls all by myself. I`ve spent a lifetime doing just that so it is entirely in character for me to go off and DIY `er DIM. :D
As for the look. I am a real fussy perfectionist when it comes to my own work and in a way it is a curse because I cannot just throw even completely experimental, proof of concept prototypes together without finishing them up looking nice as part of the path to determine if the design is a good idea. That can be really risky. This project and everything else I build is a best example of this theme. I am fortunate that very seldom have I ended up with scrap, so I must be doing something right. Part of the reason I work like this is because I know that once a project has been prototyped and is performing the function I am completely psychologically incapable of building it a second time all pretty. My mind craves that I have to move on to the challenge of the next project.
Don`t worry about my sense of humor getting lost. I was born with a dominant silly gene. ;D
I went to Princess Auto today to get the 5.75 inch dual v-belt shieve and while there picked up a digital laser tachometer that I`ve been wanting to get for $40. With flywheels involved it is essential that I know for sure what the RPM is of these projects. I plan another higher power generating plant using a Changfa 1115 engine in the near future to become a backup, or prime replacement for my 9 kW DIY 1.5 litre Rabbit diesel powered plant which powers and heats my shop. Once off grid, my goal, I consider being prepared in advance with turnkey ready backup plants essential good planning.
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RCA:
check out this ebay link
http://cgi.ebay.com/KUBOTA-DIESEL-ENGINE-6-5-HP-WATER-COOLED-APU-EB300-D_W0QQitemZ260182352009QQihZ016QQcategoryZ11754QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
it is for a 6.5 hp kubota
look at the pics down the page, where the hyd pump and particularly the drive is illustrated
it appears that it uses steel sleeved rubber bushings that bolt directly to the flywheel on the typical 3 bolt pattern
might be useful to ya, in case you decide to revisit that type of drive
bob g
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RCA:
check out this ebay link <snip>
it is for a 6.5 hp kubota
look at the pics down the page, where the hyd pump and particularly the drive is illustrated
it appears that it uses steel sleeved rubber bushings that bolt directly to the flywheel on the typical 3 bolt pattern
might be useful to ya, in case you decide to revisit that type of drive
bob g
Thanx Bob! I see what they did. The Kub hydraulic pump coupler centers the force on the pins (3 bolts that go into flywheel) so that in that area of the coupler there are lower bending (lever) forces on the `pins`.
Well I am off to the shop to make my ball bearing roller belt tensioner and restore the IP timing. Today ought to be a good day once done, all going well.
I get a chance today also to try out my new digital laser tachometer! :)
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rcavictim,
About the poor fuel economy, what I discovered in both gas with a carburetor and diesel engines with mechanical injection, is that the best fuel economy is right at the maximum torque peak. This is when the engine produces the most mechanical output vs. fuel consumption. I think your engine has a torque peak much higher than you were operating it and it was not offering high volumetric efficiency.
About the break down, I think (I could be wrong) your engine crank is very light and even with conservative injection timing, the piston seems to me that it would slow down quickly from the compression just before injection, due to the lack of stored kinetic energy but your heavy weight flywheel didn't. Causing a twist. Then when the fuel was injected, the light crank would accelerate quickly but your heavy flywheel didn't, causing a twist. This twisting back and forth might be the reason to your breakdown. A belt attached and not direct connection would help lower the twisting action by the belt taking up the differential in speed. Just my opinon.
Diesel Guy
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Well my clever modification is a faite-accompli (sp?). The engine nows spins at 2200RPM to make 60 Hz AC power. I tested for an hour last night after getting the retrofit manufactured and installed. The idler is a solid dual B-belt shieve turned from aluminum billet and uses the same two pressed-in sealed ball bearings like the flat back-of-belt idler I made or the front beltway. This new idler iis also adjustable for optimizing and maintaining belt tension.
I had 1100 watts load on the AC head spinning at 60 Hz speed and 700 watts simultaneously on the DC head (115 volts DC). No black smoke. I did not have the wiring set up at the time to add additional load. Today I`ll run more tests. Woah, what a racket!!!!! I am going to definitely put an intake silencer on this plant now.
Fuel consumption spinning everything, all these parasitic belt loads, windage and etc., was measured at 0.59 litres/kWh over a half hour test after complete warm-up. Not great. Speed regulation was not bad. I suspect that I can dial this in with a little effort.
Engine temp stayed steady at 190 F. There was a constant flow of nice warm air from the radiator like a 2 kW electric space heater. In my previous test setup I had warm air that would pulse and cool, pulse and cool. This is much better now for getting useable co-gen heat for the shop. I just have a pair of 6 inch muffin fans on the radiator for these tests.
The noise goes way down as the RPM. It appears I will be able to loaf the plant along at much lower RPM if all I am doing is maintaining charge on my 48 volt battery plant (the prime reason I built this plant). The big flywheel is really helping out! Today with additional testing I plan to re-belt so the AC head is off belt. Just big flywheel and DC head. That is the config I am really concerned about regarding the long term fuel economy, engine wear rate, noise level, etc. I suspect I`ll be able to get away with about 1500 engine RPM in this mode. I`ll report on my test results when known.
Here are pictures of the retrofit. It looks just like the placement of major components was designed to be configured this way! Sometimes you get really lucky where it is important. ;D
(http://www.area31.org/photos/HI-SPD1.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/HI-SPD2.JPG)
(http://www.area31.org/photos/HI-SPD3.JPG)
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rcavictim,
Good job! It looks like that setup is reliable. I do the same things with my systems, I take three steps forward thinking everything is going good.Then I take one step back giving me results I din't want. But sometimes when you that that step back it redirrects you to a better direction and outcome. Your very addaptive with your genset and good luck.
Diesel Guy
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From my first post in this thread.....
-------------------------------------------------------------begin quotation-------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1105
JD175 China diesel running at 500 - 1000 RPM
« on: October 15, 2007, 11:46:16 PM »
I have always wanted an engine that will run on the smell of an oily rag and this will be the closest I will be able to get to reach my goal.
----------------------------------------------------------------end quotation-------------------------------------------------------
Well in the language of Kelly Bundy....
Eurethra!!!! I`ve done it!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
After much testing with various belted configurations, loads and engine speeds, I have finally achieved a sustainable mode of operation where the fuel consumption is within, in practical limits, my stated goal. How does this sound.
0.364 litres per hour. That is 12.36 hours on a single Imperial gallon of winter diesel. That is 24 hours on just 2 gallons!
The engine is working hard enough that it has not fouled or wet stacked in the 20 hours of continuous test running so far. Electrical load, four 500 watt incandescent lamps running at reduced brightness off the output of the DC gen head ( 52 VDC @ 10.50 amps = 546 electrical watts continuous). The big flywheel is belted into operation spinning at about 850 RPM. The engine is turning 1670 RPM. The 1725 RPM DC gen head is spinning around 1100 RPM. Cogen heat? Well almost no fuel in equates to almost no heat out. :D The coolant heat from the radiator is like a 500 watt space heater. Since so little fuel is being burned there is not much heat from the engine and it`s impact at heating the shop is minimal, but it is at least making enough heat to maintain a clean burn and oil hot enough to do the job. The exhaust is totally free of visible carbon or oil smoke and contains little heat as it exits the pipe fed through a temporary hole in the shop door. Most of the exhaust heat is being radiated within the shop from the muffler and piping and therefore reclaimed. Exhaust temp at engine is just 225 degrees F. The engine has a 195F thermostat installed.
The efficiency is not great, but that is not uncommon with small engines. Cost per kWh is high (about $0.70/kWh with fuel at $1/litre) but that was not the goal. The goal was a plant that could produce enough power useable to maintain my batteries in the house while in use off grid for low total fuel per hour. IMO, getting 3 hours running on a single litre of fuel qualifies as low total fuel per hour usage! 8) When I`m finally harnessing the wind and only burning freely obtained waste oil when the wind is absent, I will be laughing.
This power level represents 12 kWhours per 24 hours. Can a person run a modern home full of electronic widgets on 12 kilowatt hours per day? Absolutely, IF I can shed my electric water heater, electric clothes drier and electric stove. Solar can be used to help with domestic hot water. Air conditioning?, not so much. It appears that this little plant CAN power my home aircon but it needs to be in `belted to the AC gen-head mode`which adds parasitic losses and run nearly flat out to do so at ~2400 RPM. This increases fuel consumption a lot but it is still only a 6 HP@2600RPM small diesel and at full tilt how much does that use flat out? About 1+ litre per hour.
At this point I am encouraged because I know that more efficiency is to be had without too much more effort by replacing the very lossy V-belt drives with timing belts or serpentine, and the volumetric efficiency of the engine can be improved with a tuned air induction system. I can even look at upgrading the wound field generator to a PM gen head to pick up efficiency which is now lost to a field coil. At this 1600 RPM speed the oil pump is working briskly and the engine gets plenty of clean oil with my added 10 micron full-flow oil filter system. The knock stress on the main bearing, rod pin and con rod is reduced because the speed is fast enough to reduce the peak bearing loading. I would expect a very long service life from this engine in this mode of operation.
I am pleased. :)
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very good job,, i am always amazed at what can be done with the mighty little changfa
the redheaded bastard stepchild of the forum :)
(please i mean no offense to any redheaded bastard stepchildren)
i am about ready to post some progress on my project as well, changfa powered of course :)
bob g
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i am about ready to post some progress on my project as well, changfa powered of course :)
bob g
That`s great Bob. I look forward to hearing about your results with a 195.
Thanx Jens.
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I think you are now in the right min rpm range for a 2600 rpm diesel.
It would be interesting to use a syringe + a killawatt and check fuel consumption at some different rpms and loads.
As I recall, a 3600 rpm gas engine is best around 2200 rpm. That's where I run my lawn mower.
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As I recall, a 3600 rpm gas engine is best around 2200 rpm. That's where I run my lawn mower.
Just a thought - that engine was designed to work and cool at 3600rpm. If you work it hard at 2200rpm, the fan can't flow enough air over the fins to keep it cooled properly.
Unless of course it's liquid cooled, in which case please ignore the previous statement. ;D
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The difference is slight because your not running at the same power level and producing less heat.
The Hotter an air cooled engine gets the better the transfer of heat so they actualy cool more efficiently for less air and the temperature difference is slight.
Air cooled engines are designed to run hot and have quiet a bit of fudged cooling capacity in order for them to run in hot deserts ect ect.
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As I recall, a 3600 rpm gas engine is best around 2200 rpm. That's where I run my lawn mower.
Just a thought - that engine was designed to work and cool at 3600rpm. If you work it hard at 2200rpm, the fan can't flow enough air over the fins to keep it cooled properly.
Unless of course it's liquid cooled, in which case please ignore the previous statement. ;D
While that seems to make sense the power output of the engine is reduced at reduced RPM so the heat produced ought to be correspondingly less at the same time as the air turbine makes less cooling airflow. This may be close enough to being a linear relationship that all will be OK at lower RPM. Of course if you try to overfuel any engine at any given RPM you are going to overheat it and likely hurt it.
There is a phenomenon which I will call `sonic shock cavitation` which can occur next to the coolant side of a cylinder wall in a liquid cooled diesel engine which prevents heat from being transfered to the coolant despite the flow and level of coolant as measured in and out of the engine block appearing normal. This can cause localized overheating damage and cylinder wall lubricant breakdown in liquid cooled engines where power levels are pushed to upper limits. It need not be a concern to slow speed stationary, naturally aspirated engine owners. There are specially formulated coolants that can hold off the formation of this sonic cavitation. They are expensive.
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That test run at 540 watts with the engine running at about 1675 RPM and the big flywheel at about 850 was going so well. I let the thing continue to run after the 20 hour point in my first extended test run and logged 31 hours. BTW the fuel consumption got better yet in the final measure. 31 hours, 11 litres of fuel used. That is 0.355L/hr. The previous number was 0.364. This may be fuel measurement technique noise. Anyhow it confirms that this is a real number.
When I went to check at 31 hours the machine was running just fine but had a bad vibration that was not there before.. It got really bad as I tried to increase the speed higher to where all was fine before. I shut the system down and removed the belt which then isolated the large flywheel from the system. I wanted to determine if it was the poroblem, or if the problem was in the engine (carbon buildup perhaps?), The plant was re-started with only the engine belted to the DC head. The new vibration was gone. OK, so something is wrong with the large flywheel mechanism. The big flywheel still rings like a bell when rapped with the knuckles and a visual inspection shows nothing amiss. It spins like silk seemingly forever on the 40 hour old new bearings, but there is a spot that makes a `critch` sound in the rotation and that spot is always the same point in the circle. At this point it appears I may have a early bearing failure issue. It may be sliding motion between the inner of one of the shaft bearings and the shaft. If that is the case, locktite will fix it. Trouble is I already did that to the pulley end as that appeared when my bearings were brand new. I do not understand how that could be the cause of the vibration I saw though and do not believe it is related.
More testing and possible bearing removal + examination will now commence.
This gives me a forced opportunity to test the fuel consumption without the big flywheel and it`s belt drive in the loop.
Film at eleven.
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Just discovered your saga of the flywheel and read it from end to end. Superb work in the finest DIY tradition. I'm sure eventual outcome will be a usuable machine. I still wonder sometimes about a rail car wheel. Keep up the good work!!!
Zeke
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i have given alot of thought to the rail car wheel as well,,, boy that would make a hell of a flywheel
another on that would be easier to do for me, would be a stub end of a hd truck axle and a set up duals
that has got to be about 750lbs of rotating mass, and balanceing would be a snap! :)
bob g
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Bob,
750 lbs! Is it possible to have too much of a good thing?
Zeke
ps I think our listeriod conspiracy may tend to be everywhere from right to left. More the merrier!
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Just discovered your saga of the flywheel and read it from end to end. Superb work in the finest DIY tradition. I'm sure eventual outcome will be a usuable machine. I still wonder sometimes about a rail car wheel. Keep up the good work!!!
Zeke
Thanx for the compliments!
The saga has continued while I have been silent here. I have installed a DIY interface adapter that fits into the cavity in the timing cover on the JD175A that previously held the oil filter `rock screen`. This has provided two 3/8 inch ports run to an external 10 micron spin-on hydraulic oil filter. I struggled with some leaks at first but now have everything under control. In the process though I suspect a particle of broken o-ring or RTV sealant made it`s way into the pressure passage to the rocker arm gallery and partially blocked the spray nozzle thus starving the rocker arms of oil spray. I destroyed one pressed in steel bushing and compromised the other and did slight wear damage to the hardened rocker shaft in one 9 hour run.. I need to order a new replacement shaft. I have restored oil flow, machined and installed yellow brass bushings on both rockers and they have survived the latest 40 hour continuous system test with flying colors.
Mobile Bob will be pleased to hear that I abandoned the use of locktite on the rocker set screws and just torqued down the lock nuts with a few hammer taps on the box end wrench.
Here is a picture of the new full flow oil filter system. Use the scroll bar at the bottom of this post to see the whole image.
(http://www.area31.org/photos/OILFILTR.JPG)
I believe that carbon buildup on the piston is a possible cause of the perplexing vibration event that I witnessed. At the time this was after a 30 hour run with very low fuel throughput (0.3`ish litres per hour) and a rather cool exhaust temp in the neighborhood of just 210 F. I have since run the engine hard to clear it out, reconnected all the belts and large flywheel and run the plant at higher fuel input (0.55 litres per hour) resulting in an exhaust temp of 300 F for 40 hours continuous at 1700 RPM with absolutely no changes in operating behaviour or distress.
I have also determined that the considerable drag of spinning the AC Kohler head with no electrical connection is nearly identical to asking the DC head to make an additional 500 watts of electricity. When the plant has everything belted up (both gen heads and large flywheel) and run at just 500 watt DC load to yield low hourly fuel consumption numbers, the inclusion of the unused AC head in the active belt path bumps the hourly fuel consumption up by a factor near 1.6X. This is terrible.
At the same time I have also determined that the addition of the large flywheel in the active belt path adds an insignificant amount to the fuel consumption.
I am pleased to report that my DC head is indeed capable of acting as a starter motor from the very 48 volt battery bank that it will be connected to as charger! I can therefore unbelt the AC head and still enjoy electric start. It turns out that with the large flywheel and DC head belted to the engine I absolutely cannot hand crank start the engine and electric start is absolutely necessary.
In the true tradition of the best DIY, I am making progress! 8)