Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Bio-diesel Fuel => Topic started by: jgollie on September 14, 2007, 05:39:03 PM
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As I can't see my wife allowing me to brew biodiesel in the garage, so how do I find out where to buy it and what is a reasonable price per gallon?
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http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/distributors/default.shtm
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If the biodiesel is conforming to the standards cited by biodiesel.org, will it offer the same fuel efficiency as regular diesel (i.e. if I'm getting 30 mpg now, will I still get 30 mpg with B5, or even B100)?
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its suppose to smell better than dino. a plus
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There are lots of claims about it also making your engine run a little better and improving the lubricity of the dyno fuel its blended with so you engine lasts longer.
It will loosen any crude in your fuels system so you may need to do a filter change shortly after you start using it.
Doug
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I found something called the GFEX via Google - says it will be a Green Fuels Exchange for things like biodiesel. Has anyone else heard of this/or know of what groups are involved in it?
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I bought some methanol Sunday, and I'm on the hunt for some fresh Lye today....
I want to see what this Mc-diesel thing is all about myself
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I bought some methanol Sunday, and I'm on the hunt for some fresh Lye today....
I want to see what this Mc-diesel thing is all about myself
Hi Doug,
I have absolutely no idea how much you have researched the subject but for the very best way (in my opinion) to get started is by following the instructions here http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/857600061/p/1. 20 or so pages of information.
If your attempt is as a complete novice, the 2 liter method described above with NEW vegetable oil will teach you all of the very basic procedures.
Journey to forever also has some very interesting information, but many question the validity of the instructions found there. If you are interested I can supply another dozen or more links on homebrewed biodiesel.
Whatever you do and whatever you determine, please keep us informed - as I am sure you will.
Rose is Rose
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So far Rose I have just looked at it.
Its yellow on top and gooey on the bottom.
I will not be putting this in my Jetta lol.....
I need to build a proper reactor ( small of course ) and invest in some chemistry books. there is only so much you can learn from the Internet.
Why do this at all?
I won't save any money when you factor in the time.
I need to test this stuff:
I understand that a glycol test will tell me if in glycerol remains inthe product
I think litmas paper will tell me the PH of the product
Now here is the funny bit.....
I used to brew beer from grain so most of the equipment I have here can easily be adapted. It might even be better since its sanitary and high tempt mostly stainless steel ect ect.
If I proceed I can't see myself blending beyond about 10% since its the lubricity I'm after maybe some small enviromental bennifits more than trying to to get rather than just saving a buck.
Spent all afternoon reading, maybe I need my head examined ....
That remineds me I have hurry off for a CT scan of my head lol....
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Yikes Straight veg in a TDI Jetta?
I may as well remove the air filter and pack it with sand!
The TDI engines are not forgiving of fuel. RVO gums the rings, the oil get contaminated, the bearings in the turbo bake and it get clogged with blow by oil.
In short TDI jetta + RVO = KA-BOOM!!!
I just want to play around, and I have the Petteroid so it may enjoy some. The wife may let me buy more engines so I think any fule oil I make will be emostly for the toys.
Doug
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I'm not an expert on VW but the shop foreman who services my car ( still under warrenty ) kringed at the sugestion of Veg in the car even if its biodiesel.
He told me anything that gums/gets past the rings in a VW will destroy that very expensive turbo.
I don't even know if my 2 litre bottle of ooze will pass any tests yet so its way to soon to start guessing about how much bio I am willing to try.
Petter parts are disposable, best to start there.
Doug
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Doug, please try TDI Club.com and see what many of us TDI owners are doing to our cars, and using in our engines. Our 2k TDI has been chipped, larger turbo, Cat fuel filter (2 micron), 2-1/2" exhaust, all done before 50k miles. We now are at 153k miles, runs great, all the while our fuel has been B20 except Dec thru March when we use B10 + Power Service. We live in Northern Illinois, not quite as chilly as your neighborhood but close. Oh, and our Chev 2500 DMax uses the same fuel, but it only has 20k. We have given serious thought to doing our own Bio D, using the info at infopop, which has quite a few real scientists as regulars as well as commercial refiners.
Try it, you'll like it, and so will your engines.
oops, I pushed the wrong button!
Paul
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He told me anything that gums/gets past the rings in a VW will destroy that very expensive turbo.
Gets past the rings which way ? To get to the turbo, it will have to be crankcase oil, blowing into the cylinder, and if that's happening in any appreciable amount, well, call a toasted turbo an early warning.
What will toast a turbo? Soot buildup, maybe. It should be running so hot, that the soot/carbon gets burned off/blown off as fast as it accumulates in small amounts. All bets are off if a couple of rings break and you start blowing fluffy soot into the exhaust.
Going the other way, the turbo likely needs engine oil to keep it's bearings cool, and getting straight diesel past the rings and into the crankcase, well, then the expensive oil in the crankcase will be contaminated with something. Diesel, BD100, VO, any of them will be bad news, they will likely start to coke up on the red hot bearings, and there goes the turbo. I wonder if you have an electric oil pump that cools the turbo down for a couple of minutes after engine shutdown, thats supposed to be a big turbo saver.
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The reason why you need to be careful with B100 in newer diesel engines is because they are what is known as "high pressure rail" systems. The pressures in these systems are really quite phenominal. My truck has pressures in excess of 23,000 psi - VW's are now up around 28,000 and the new Dodges are in at over 30,000 psi I understand. There are some great benefits to these high pressures, but if you're using biodiesel that isn't washed, dried and brewed by an experienced homebrewer, the fuel can polymerize at those high pressures and become almost plastic-like. The manufacturers try their best to keep folks from using B100 beause the one thing that they can't control, is the type of diesel fuel people use. We can't blame them for that. Don't kid yourself about the quality of commercial diesel/biodiesel either. Some of the absolute worst biodiesel comes from commercial producers. Most commercial producers simply cannot devote the TLC to wash each batch 5-6 times to remove all excess lye and methanol and then drying to make sure all the water has been eliminated. Time = money. The best biodiesel is made by homebrewers, hands down. Just like the best beer comes from our nations microbrewerys.
Making fuel is a wonderful thing, just don't pour your first attempts in your new expensive car or truck. For the first 6 months or so, the batches that I didn't ruin and need to dispose of, were burned in my old indirect injection John Deere, that would run on almost anything. Eight years,over 40,000 gallons and 160,000 miles on B100 later, it's a lot of time and energy - but it sure feels good recycling. By the way, our wonderful listeroids are of the low pressure, indirect injected type diesel engines that will burn anything, so all the small batches that you make - even if they are not perfect, will run fine. Just filter and go.
Houndog
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Wow this is great thank you for your input and advice guys.....
I have every intention to push on.
I have a couple of small sources of WVO aound here but the FFAs in used oil from a fish and chip place and breakfast diner need to be explored. I have read a technical article about making bio fuel that explains a lot of the pit falls.
From what I understand a two stage Acid/Base process seems to offer the most hope however....
I have to make some first batches and test them, the technical paper I read also has some exercises in purposly screwing up some fuel that I need to try to better understand the process.
I also need to learn more about chemistry.
This thread may turn out to be a very important one, especialy for those who are looking at presses and squeezing their own unrefined oil.....
Doug
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Hello All,
I don't have a Lister/Listeroid (yet) and have spent much time lurking and learning... I do have a fair bit of experience in home brewing Biodiesel tho and can offer the following:
I have found that if the used oil is even slightly acidic the two stage acid/base method is the only way to get consistent good results. Trying to process oil that titrates at 3 or higher will produce huge amounts of soap and sometimes the entire batch will gel and need to be dumped.
The "appleseed" type of reactor does the job without venting toxic fumes and can be constructed cheaply. Do a google search and you will find lots of examples to work from.
Small batches first and careful measuring/note taking are the key to success here... I made several 1 litre batches before moving to a 20 litre mini reactor then the full size 200 litre appleseed. It's much easier to dispose of 1 litre of glop than 200!
Getting the fuel properly washed and then thoroughly dried is time consuming. It's easy to get impatient and rush things, which will leave you with water in the fuel which will clog up your filters with what looks like mayonaise. water contamination will be more evident as the temperatures drop. I heat my fuel to just above the boiling point of water after the washing stage and agitate it to release steam. This seems to leave the fuel completely dry.
My cummins powered F350 has run on my own B100 since I swapped out the gas burner for the Cummins 5.9 about 80,000 Km ago. The only fuel issues I have had were fuel gelling at temps below 35 degrees F. The engine smokes much less on Bio, gets slightly less mpg and if there is any power difference between the two fuels I can't detect it.
I have also run a 2005 TDI Jetta on B100 since new... about 35,000 Km. on it now. I mix Bio with regular diesel in the winter to combat gelling, and if it gets too cold I simply switch back to dino diesel.
The latest addition to the fleet is a 2006 TDI wagon. That has run on B100 since new also and now has about 12,000 Km. on it. The same dino mix or switch to 100% dino is done when the temps drop to near freezing.
I hope this is useful to those contemplating making your own fuel.
cheers,
Rob.