Lister Engine Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: T19 on November 30, 2005, 04:16:27 AM

Title: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: T19 on November 30, 2005, 04:16:27 AM
Been looking into the "rest of the Story" and find that to do this right you need a transfer swtich that transfers power to your panel and stops backfeeding back into your utility (if it is a backup)

In Ontario they are deploying smart meters, and will allow you to reverse run your meter to ZERO.  So You could run your generator durring the day, while the rates are high, and at night use hydro, like batteries.  So you get credit for high rates, and use low lates... it would take about 3 hours running /day to keep the bill to Zero.

ANyone have any expericance with this stuff?  Or are we all offgrid or backup guys?

Cheers
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: rocket on November 30, 2005, 04:39:24 AM
i have a switch box to go from electric company to generator, but have not looked into reversing meters. i think that running the generator during the day during high loads and then switching to the power company at night when useage is very low makes the genset last longer, allows for maintenance, and is alot cheaper than an inverter and batteries
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Stan on November 30, 2005, 11:40:28 PM
Note to T19...Although I live in BC, I'd bet the biggest hurdle you'd face would be the same as here.  It's the rules & regs that'll kill you, negate your house insurance etc. etc. etc.
Stan
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: T19 on December 01, 2005, 04:22:11 AM
Oh yes, Canadians just love red tape!!!!!

Ontario Hydro havea simple process to follow.... you call them, they come out, give you a list of to-do's, install new meter (and bill you about $300)

As for insurance, I have pointed out that this backup genset will save the insurance company money next power failures and the sump pump does not flood the basement, or the house is not damaged by frost burst water pipes.  I'm putting the genset in a separate shed, away from the house just in case.  Buy running it frequently I am insuring that it is in good working order

The insurance company sees this as an atempt too lessen my damages and thier exposure.  I guess its just in how you sell it.

If I told them I was doing this to save money.... they would have wanted some too!!!  Screw that, they take enough as it is
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Bansonyankee on December 01, 2005, 07:52:15 PM
In the People's Republic of Massachusetts (sorry, my politics are showing...) it is legal to utilize "net metering".  That means one can use electricity whenever you want, generate at any level you like and whenever you want, and you only get billed for the NET amount you use (presumably zero or close) at the end of the month.  So the utility is functioning as a huge battery, so to speak...

This is allowable (1) up to 60 kW (no problem for Listeriod-heads) (2) in accordance with the utilities interconnection guidelines and (3) with appropriate metering. 

So, that's what I'm going to do.  I'll utilize a common 5 hp, 3-phase motor (my shop has a 3 phase, 208 volt service) as an induction generator, running slightly over synchronous speed (i.e. 1835 rpm, as opposed to 1765 rpm as a motor).  I'll just advance the governor knob until my ammeter indicates nearly fulll load amps on the motor and awaaaaay we go.  No hassles with synchronizing, voltage control, etc., etc.  I have a motor starter we'll use as a contactor. 

The interconnection will require the following protection:  Under/over voltage (IEEE symbol 81O/U), under frequency (IEEE 27) and reverse power (IEEE 32).  All of which I have here in the shop in various places.   

Wish me luck...

JS
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: hotater on December 01, 2005, 09:36:31 PM
Bansonyankee--

(Sorry I'm a Southerner and can't help it....are you any kin to that damnyankee my Grandad was always cussin' ?)

You said it right about the Peoples Repub. of Mass....I'm betting you find that out in fulfilling the letter of the #2 'requirements'.
    I'm just guessing, but by the time you pay for things like  transfer switches, safety items,  union electricians, and Peoples Bureau of Inspections, it may take ninety years of making bio fuel to pay for the trouble.

  I hope not...that's the way it shouldwork.  In a system like that it seems the small generator guy should have the hook-up expenses subsidised to encourage the practice.

    In Idaho, the power company hooks into your generator (hundreds of small hydros in the state) and feeds your electricity into their grid through a meter.  They pay you wholesale for the power ($.043 last I heard) and charge you retail ($.08 or so) for what you take from them.   I know of three places that generate considerably more power than they use but still owe money at the end of the month.   It has something to do with a 'grant of monoply' to Idaho Power...they OWN all the hydro rights in the state even though the water is yours.  The canal companies have generators on the big irrigation canals but the farmers pumping from the canal buys power from Idaho Power instead of the canal company.

   The place where I am has rights to generate power from up to 17.37 cubic feet a minute from Shoshone Creek.  NO problem!  That's enough to run a circus!   But wait---

You can't use the first 5 cubic feet per second in the creek.  That water belongs to fish habitat and to cattle watering rights further downstream that's reserved by the BLM.  The creek only flows FOUR cfs in an average year.  So, the hydroelectric rights that are part of the property aren't usable in a practical way at all.....and not enough sun, not enough wind, too far to drive for WVO.  The fuel company delivers.  Diesel it is.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: binnie on January 14, 2006, 04:40:32 AM
Hi T19, Andrew.
I live in Que. Laurentiens on the Rouge River not too far from Ottawa, and have just ordered a 12/2 Listeroid and 10kw gen. head from John up in your area for delivery in the Spring. The delivery to his place should be in Feb. but he will give it the once over and I am not ready with my shed cleanout till early spring. Nice guy and seems to know his stuff. I did ask him about selling back to Hydro...but he said when he checked into it the hassels were not worth what they would pay. I haven't checked any further with Hydro Que. It may be different with Ontario Hydro.
His friend & neighbour "Ernie" has a very impressive WVO set up with a 12/2 runing full time and is off grid for the last 6months. His inovations on the cooling system & using the exhaust system to heat hot water in a heat exchanger that also serves as a muffler system is mindblowing. You must see that set up. It blew me away. There are picts of it on Geo. B's CD. He has also fabricated a very nice, removable guard for the flywheels that presented a danger for the dogs tail. The dog sleeps in the genshed next to the Listeroid.
I am buying the system as a back up with potential for the future for my country house & love your idea of using Hydro as a battery pack for night time use. I have been looking at the cogen stuff too...but that is down the road. The lister installation is my project for this Summer.
Let us know what you decide & thanks for the idea. I will check it out. Binnie

 
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GerryH on January 14, 2006, 04:22:14 PM
You gotta be careful of the CSA police. Hydro won't like your electricity unless it is generated from an approved device. Oh, BTW, any motor or generator that has been rewound is no longer certified, but the Liberals are gonna fix that after the next election. 'Scuse me, I gotta go register my guns.

Gerry
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: lister-deaf on April 22, 2006, 02:33:20 AM
Semi-Automatic - If you have a manual start generator this unit is for you. The semi-automatic comes with the same voltage monitoring and safety equipment as the automatic but does not come with ability to start the generator.

Automatic - If you have an auto-start generator this transfer switch is for you. The automatic comes with the ability to start the generator, monitor voltage, communication capability, and the same excellent safety features.

http://electromn.com/pdf/LI124.pdf
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on April 26, 2006, 11:30:36 PM
I've submitted a net-meter request in WI to use an induction generator without voltage and frequency controls since these parameters don't change with an induction generator.  It will be set up so that when the grid goes down, the generator goes offline and will not auto start when the grid is back up (mag starter relay).

The submission was sent in this weekend and the engineer is going to get back to me on it's approvability.

I'll keep everyone posted
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on April 27, 2006, 12:42:29 AM
   Pigseye I am about to make the same request in Ct. but I have been told that they may want all the same protection as a reguler gen.set.which means big bucks,more than the darn Listeroid.Keep us posted because if they let you fly I would like a copy of your submitals and your Utiliy reply if you don't mind.I don't think I need all the things that they say I do,the only thing is how do I convince them?
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: chug on April 27, 2006, 05:10:25 AM
I checked into net metering here in michigan with consumers power.  I need a special two way electronic meter that measures power both ways and a meter on the generator.  I have to buy the two meters for around $1500.00 :o  I can buy alot of batteries and invertors for that or another Lister.  Let us know how you come out with the induction moter idea.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: solarguy on April 27, 2006, 06:47:42 PM
Many utilities are so geared to large industrial stuff they become pretty insensitive to the needs of the little guy.  And never forget, they are monopolies, and essentially get "free" money, so they don't bat an eye at some expensive gizmo that they feel is necessary, even marginally.  Their customer base is captive, so what are you going to do about it if they make it hard???

Alternatively, many many utilities actively suppress the little guy because they don't like competition and/or think it is completely useless to make an extra 10kw with green energy.

finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on April 27, 2006, 08:20:11 PM
   Troy, well put,that is exactly what I fear is the case here in ct. I even asked a guy who works for the utility the question and he just laughed as if I was full of you know what.My reply to him was just because I am not an electrician dosn't mean I can't do this............. ;D
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on April 29, 2006, 06:37:28 PM
Hi Schoust,
I'll keep you and everyone else informed on the outcome.  I received a voicemail from the engineer and she said she received my proposal and would look it over next week.  I really don't know what to expect and if it does get approved as is, it will be because of her understanding of induction generation versus the systems ability to meet every legal/technical detail of the requirements. 

What I don't understand is if my state really supported distributed generation (maybe they don't), why would they require all the controls of a synchronous generator on an induction generation system.  Induction generation is inherently safer when the grid goes down that all the other concerns seem trivial in comparison.  If they require all the controls of a synchronous generator, there would be no reason to consider induction generation. 

Seems bass-ackwards to me, if liability is such a concern.
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 01, 2006, 03:31:34 PM
   Have you heard anything Yet???
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: solarguy on May 01, 2006, 07:30:10 PM
We will probably have to be patient to find out the true outcome.

Keep in mind this is a state sanctioned monopoly.  Even routine things seem to take a long time.  Anything out of the ordinary will probably take longer.

Of course, this could be the exception, in which case we'd all be really happy.

Good luck and have fun!

troy
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 02, 2006, 07:24:22 PM
Hi Schoust,
No word yet, but I didn't expect to hear anything this soon.  I did leave an email message today with her to see if she had any high level feedback or questions. 

Not sure how this will really play out but I wanted to add one more thing about the engineer I'm working with.  I think she really understands this stuff.  During our phone conversation she said that most of the voltage and frequency control requirements are intended to protect me and my equipment more than it protects the utility.  If I tried to start a synchronous generator out of phase with the grid, I would probably blow my generator, possibly hurt myself or others around me, but not hurt the grid.   

She closed by stating that the safety of utility workers when the grid is down is a real concern.  An induction system that does not generate energy when the grid is down is a good thing.  I consider this evidence of her understanding the benefits of the system under proposal.   

That being said, her pragmatism might not be a factor in the approval decision.  Sure she get's it, but if this type of induction generating system is considered a variance against code, it could easily be shot down from a bureaucratic perspective without any recourse.  The law is the law, point of view.

All we can do is wait and see. 

I'll keep you all informed.
Steve



Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 03, 2006, 03:19:50 AM
Once I started reaching for cable termination in a 13.8 kv switch I thought was dead and issolated. Turns out power feed back from another source and it was hot.
I got lucky because I had no ladder and was feeling lazy that day ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Long pause eh?
So did I.

I can live with the rules regarding induction generators.

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 03, 2006, 03:48:40 AM
I always like the laser warning


“Do Not Look Into Laser With Remaining Eye”
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 03, 2006, 06:38:16 PM
Here's one I made up after miss laid scaling bar impailed the back rest of the land cruiser I was backing into a drift....

"A scaling bar in the hands of an idiot is called a spear"

But seriously why make traps for people by trying to cut corners or save a buck?
I woudn't want to hurt a utillity worker by charging a line he's trying to isolate.

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: trigzy on May 04, 2006, 04:21:37 AM
Hi All,
      Just got thinking about this induction generator setup and all of the "complaining" about why you shouldn't need all of the safties that syncronous generators need.  So, you've all decided to have no capacitors in your system and that's fine.  But any load you or your neighbours have with a postive power factor could be a problem.  I know some UPS's were really bad (?good?) for their leading pf.

The other consideration is that utilities often use large capacitor banks to improve the voltage near the ends of long lines.  There may infact be one on your section of the line.  If the circuit supplying this is opened, the capactior bank in your section of the line could continue to supply VARs to your generator, causing you to liven a section of line that would otherwise be dead.  This is why you still need over/under volt/frequency relays.

I'll be interested in seeing what the engineer has to say.

Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 04, 2006, 05:23:39 AM
All,
Here's what the engineer said.  The email is pretty long so I'll summarize.

1) Will there be an Visible open disconnect switch?   The answer is yes.

2) Exactly how / where is the intertie made in relation to your service panel?  Branch panel from Service Panel to garage.  Visible open disconnect switch will be outside on the garage.

3) Meter -  this will need to be replaced with a bi-directional meter.  Takes 4 to 6 weeks

4)Protection -  Just so you are aware, we do have a recloser with one fast trip on it and these typically have a 3 second time delay for reclose, however it may be faster than that.  Therefore you have the responsibility to ensure that your induction machine really will trip and be gone from the grid by the time we reclose.  We do not take any responsibility for damage to your equipment if it does not respond quickly enough.

I hadn't thought about a fast recloser.  My presumption is that a magnetic switch would definitely open if the grid is down for 1 second or more.  The only time this might be an issue if grid capacitor banks and or a ups allows the generator to keep providing power for a few seconds while the grid is down.  This would hold the magnetic relay closed.  That could be very bad when the grid comes back on line.

5) Voltage -  I notice your motor / generator is rated at 230 volts.  Typically these will have a =/- 10% range.  But just so you are aware, it is very likely that our system voltage would run on the higher end of our acceptable limit in that area since we feed this from our Oak Park substation across the river.  You may experience voltages in the 250 volt range.   Just wanted you to be aware in case this higher voltage would be a problem for your machine. 

I've got a Killawatt and it indicates my voltage is 119V per leg.  Would 250V on the grid cause a problem for this system?

6) Neighbors and fluctuations from your machine:

If my system causes flicker issues at my neighbors home, and they complain.  I am financially responsible to have a seperate transformer installed to isolate my home from the neighbors.  That could be expensive!


Trigzy (Steve),
Well I hadn't thought about a UPS or capacitor banks, that could be trouble. 

I look forward to hearing from others.

Thanks,
Steve




Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 04, 2006, 02:25:03 PM
   Hmmmmm this gets more and more complicated as we go, I have not thought of Ups and and or capacitor banks.As far a the transaformer goes I believe that would sink my project :(   Anyone have any idea how much a transformer costs??
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 04, 2006, 02:40:40 PM
I'm going to ask the engineer about transformer costs when I respond.  But remember your neighbors have to complain about it first.  But then you're sunk.

I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 04, 2006, 05:52:42 PM
   I live way out in the sticks, I wonder if it would have the same affect as in a more populated area?I still think this can be done and all this talk about problems is just a lot of what ifs.WW1 Props has been doing this for a while and I do not believe he has had any issues at all and all he uses is a Mag. starter......
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 04, 2006, 07:14:07 PM
Personaly I don't think the Capacitance of local grid will be high enough to excite an induction generator. Even if we were to barke the rules and use a run Capacitor in the AUX winding, there still all that inductive load of pole transformers and line compensation not to mention the appliances left on in all your neighbors homes.

Unless everyone on your block tried the samething that is.......

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 04, 2006, 08:25:12 PM
Hi Doug,
Are you saying that the inductance load would be so much greater than any spurious capacitance load that it would be overwhelmed and not be a factor? 

What about a personal UPS being connected when the grid goes down?  My understanding is that a UPS does not provide energy to the home wiring, just to the PC and peripheral equipment that is plugged into it.  But could there be capacitance in a UPS that would keep an induction generator online for a few seconds after the grid goes down? Or again, is this overwhelmed by the inductance on the line?

No one on my block is net-metering. Heck, no one in my town and up and down the river for 7 miles each way is net-metering according to the engineer.

Any thoughts on the voltage concern?  Potentially 250V on the line while the generator is only producing 230V?
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2006, 03:21:33 AM
Yup thats my gut feeling but that doesn't mean I'm right.
All power lines are compensated to some degree or other because of capacitance to ground with inductors and in some cases with series capacitors. This with all the dead load on the line would in my opinion swamp out most induction generators but there is always the chance......


Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 05, 2006, 12:43:36 PM
  In this case I still believe the Utility is reaching for a worst case situation, I'm with Doug on this one but I'm no expert by any means..........
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 05, 2006, 04:33:34 PM
I don't blame utilities for looking for worst case scenarios.  That's exactly what they are trying to prevent.

I'll keep plugging away, but even i'm starting to think i'd feel better with more controls on the generator.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 05, 2006, 05:23:07 PM
   I will be sending in my application soon and we will see how big an issue it is in the Nuttmeg State.Somthiing tells me this won't be easy....
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 05, 2006, 07:15:10 PM
Worst case scenarios.....

Who many times do you hear people discribe an accident as a one in a million kind of thing?
The truth is your not very lucky when your the one who says this more than once in a life time.

I've got a limp, and a scars on my arm from an industrial accident and I don't feel to lucky anymore. I may not agree with many of the rules, but its arogant to think I know better.

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: trigzy on May 06, 2006, 01:18:00 AM
List,
      Not disagreeing with any points made, but there are some points I'll add about utility capactior installations just for FYI:

1) Often near the end of lines where there might not be much load
2) Often 50-150kvar per-phase in size

Typical installation:

[Transformer station] --[Recloser A]---------------[Long lines, Loads A, more reclosers]------[Recloser Z]-----{CAP BANK 1}--------[Loads B]

(For those unaware, a recloser is a self resetting circuit breaker that usually tries 2-3 times to re-energize the load before locking off)
Pictures of utility capactiors here: http://www.nepsi.com/capacitor.htm
Pictures of reclosers here: http://www.setransformer.com/gallery/equip8_lg.jpg

Here is where my concern lies:

1) "Recloser Z" is opened
2) "Cap Bank 1" often provides many more kvars than "Loads B" is often able to accept.  This is because the system was designed to supply power in one direction only, and a capactior bank normally affects the line a great deal on both sides of it for some distance.
3) This MAY keep an induction generator downstream of Recloser Z engergized, even if at a low level.

Again, not likely, but possible.  Fast acting voltage cutout relays (cut out ouside of 226-254V) aren't terribly expensive and would be easy to add.  I'll have to put some more time looking through the catalogs for that Freq. relay I thought I saw.

The concern (probably even more remote) with the UPS is that thier input has a leading pf when the UPS is trying to charge it batteries, it wouldn't feed any power back in to the system.  Probably not enough kvars to excite any generator, but it's there.


Steve

Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 06, 2006, 02:42:41 AM
See....

There you go, Steve has explained a condition where a compensated line can have a leading power factor.
And I'll bet everyone who reads ths post will look for the 3 flashes before the automation gives up because a line is actualy down.
There is a Shawm's outline available at most college book stores that goes into power line calculations ( high brow math involved ) that will actualy show you equiv circuts of short and long power lines, and how capacitors(or in some cases unloaded syncronous machines called syncronous condensors to adjust PF of a dynamic load ) or inductors are used to make these lines efficient at transmitting power.


Doug

Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 07, 2006, 02:57:40 PM
   Wow this stuff gets deeper and deeper!I guess my question should be would the installation of a fast acting voltage cut out relay take care of this concern??If so where would one get such a relay?
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 07, 2006, 03:18:09 PM
   Wow this stuff gets deeper and deeper!I guess my question should be would the installation of a fast acting voltage cut out relay take care of this concern??If so where would one get such a relay?

you've just cleared up something I remember seeing years ago, it was a home made device, an electromagnet held a ball in suspension, the ball was on an arm, and the other end of the arm over the pivot was a contactor which was wired to the field coils, you had to push the ball up to the energised electromegnet, as it was only powerful enough to hold the ball there at full voltage.

the whole thing was a bit heath robinson, and it was used for an overshot six foot water wheel powering a genny of some sort, which linked into a big windmill which also generated power.

at the time I didn't understand what purpose it could have, but looking back I can see it was a failsafe to ensure the thing only put power into a live system, clever.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 07, 2006, 11:47:37 PM
   Hey Guy,
Don't you just love those old electro mechanical devices :)I only wish that things would have stayed that simple instead of the solid state black box.Now I need to find out if somone makes a device like that??
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 08, 2006, 12:04:43 AM
you might like to read this site
http://www.ytmag.com/articles/artint29.htm

and these (PDF) will do what you want
http://energy.tycoelectronics.com/getDocument.aspx?PRD_ID=412
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 08, 2006, 12:11:45 AM
and of course these

http://www.pbeng.co.uk/engineering/mrmf.htm
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: mobile_bob on May 08, 2006, 12:48:04 AM
is it possible that their concerns about controls stems from the possibility that your induction generator will not uncouple or stop generating if the mains go down?

capacitance in the mains, from all sorts of places might keep your generator spitting power back up the grid.

just wondering

bob g
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 08, 2006, 02:44:14 AM
Yes thats the concern Bob.
A power transmission line looks like a capacitor because of coupling to ground.
Steve will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most lines are still compensated with grounded line reactors and further corrected with series capacitors for the inductance of the lines. This is also why the utility would prefer that industrial consumers remain slightly lagging in their PF and don't push the point to reach unity and make the line unstable.

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: trigzy on May 08, 2006, 03:34:01 AM
Doug & List,
       Any scenarios that I have seen have always required the utility to add (parallel) capacitors to offset the lagging power factor of loads, and inductance in the transformers.  Although I'm aware that they exist, I dont think that there are many series capactors or line reactors in use in this part of the land, but I've only really gone over distribution stuff, not transmission.  (Definition here: Transmission 50+kV, Distribution 1kV-49kV)  "Old-timers" have talked about special cirumstances where you might need this stuff in response to my inquiry of "What the hell would you need this for?" while looking through some catalogs.  I think I recall something about smelting plants or a plating plant of some description having a 0.55 LEADING power factor...... just a vauge memory about what actually had that pf though.

There is an entire science to modelling distribution and transmission circuits, and "guessing" various loads/voltages/PFs so you know how to adjust, compensate and protect a certain section of line or a station.  There is some nice software for it, and it's one of those things you wonder how it ever gone done before computers.  Not that it would be impossible, but you cant be as "creative" when it takes you several hours to re-test each scenario.  Doing things manually (transparent sheets laid over each other ect) didn't allow you to push equipment closer to tolerances, so I think you actually ended up with a better designed system however.  (Ie. If the computer says within specs, even if it's within 0.5%, you probably do it, but if the dot is right on the line, most engineeers would say NO and rethink their setup)

The utilies rely on most customers averaging a 0.90 lag pf.

Just another point: Yes, a "fast acting voltage cut out relay" is fine, but that means it has a KNOWN or ADJUSTABLE cut out point. DO NOT rely on a standard relays/contactors, I have known many to hold at 50 volts or lower.  Preferably a relay with a high and low cut out setting, and a trip time of 30 cycles (0.5 seconds) or less.  A generic motor starter is not what you are looking for here.


Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 08, 2006, 04:58:47 AM
After a lot of internal debate, I'm going to incorporate some type of over/under voltage control and a shut off that is more sophisticated than a magnetic motor relay.

I'm looking for ideas.  Initially I'm considering a M3410A ($1200) from Beckwith but am looking for more cost effective options.  Your suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve 
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 08, 2006, 10:59:31 AM

There is an entire science to modelling distribution and transmission circuits, and "guessing" various loads/voltages/PFs so you know how to adjust, compensate and protect a certain section of line or a station.  There is some nice software for it, and it's one of those things you wonder how it ever gone done before computers.  Not that it would be impossible, but you cant be as "creative" when it takes you several hours to re-test each scenario.  Doing things manually (transparent sheets laid over each other ect) didn't allow you to push equipment closer to tolerances, so I think you actually ended up with a better designed system however.  (Ie. If the computer says within specs, even if it's within 0.5%, you probably do it, but if the dot is right on the line, most engineeers would say NO and rethink their setup)

You will probably take this as a flame / personal attack, it isn't.

I want to pull my hair out when I read stuff like you just wrote, you are making the classic mistake, assuming the computer software is "modelling" something with accuracy.

If it was Open Source software and anyone could see the code then I would have some sympathy with anyone claiming they knew what was going on.

If it is closed source / proprietary code then it doesn't matter how accurate it appears to me, you are using the Magic 8 ball to get answers, because you cannot manually check the calculations that the computer is doing.

This software by the way will be written by coders, not qualified and experienced electrical engineers.

So you run some numbers manually, it is slower, and you get DIFFERENT ANSWERS.

So you turn around and ignore this discrepancy as being hugely significant, declare the computer to be accurate and the manual system to be less precise, and away you go.

The truth is hidden in what you said, computers are fast, you can run ten or twenty scenarios in the time it takes to do one manually.

The calculation process thus loses it's importance, and your respect, and as soon as that happens you stop adhering to all the traditional rules, based on experience, that were there simply because calculation took a long time to do right, so you didn't mess with it.

But the real problem is unless you have a set of "workings" for each calculation, you're using a Magic 8 ball, but nobody is admitting that, everyone is claiming the computer calculations are god.

I knew someone who used to work on finite element modelling at a university with close links to the auto industry, which uses it to design and predict things like crumple zones, so he decides to compare real wrecked cars with the models, and found HUGE differences, and started to investigate... he doesn't work in finite element any more...

I use computers all day, but when I started using them everyone constantly drummed a phrase in to you, Garbage In, Garbage Out, so unless your transmission line modelling software can include calculations for the effects of humidity, rain, ice on the cables (capacitance etc) precise grades of cable metal, wooden vs steel tube vs steel frame towers, etc etc etc etc, you have no way of assessing how much garbage is going in.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 08, 2006, 12:52:50 PM
   Pigseye,I dido your statement.I was looking at the same Beckworth box but together we have to be able to come up with somthing more reasonable,this seems extreme for what we are doing but it appears to be what my Utility is looking for....
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: trigzy on May 08, 2006, 12:59:11 PM
Guy is bang on this one.  The whole system is based on a lot of assumptions about how far apart the wires are, how high the poles are, that the conductor data on the blueprints is accurate.  A certain temperature and humdity are used as averages, but these things all change.  The loads are just averaged across an entire year, and averaged across an entire line.  Very rarely would a customer's actual use data be entered in to the software, and even then, it only shows the load over an entire month, not peaks on certian days.

The computer system can only work within the data you have provided it.  With that said, this system seems to keep the lights on 99.9% of the time and there haven't been any substation accidents or line burnouts around here that could have been avoided with this type of work.  Lightning, and drivers hitting poles does most of the damage around here.

I'll look through the catalogs this week to see if I can find some voltage relays.


Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 08, 2006, 02:23:54 PM
Trigzy/Steve,
We appreciate any suggestions you have.  One of the things I found about relays is that they are usually pretty specific.  i.e.  under voltage relay, over voltage relay, under freq relay, over freq relay, ...  My thought was if you have to purchase a bunch of discrete parts, you might be ebtter off with an all-in-one.

But if we can find a few discrete relays that will do the job, i'm very interested in checking it out.

If you wouldn't mind pointing us to some links shoust and I could look too.

Thanks
Pigseye/Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 08, 2006, 05:21:36 PM
Guy is bang on this one. 

Respect.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: BruceM on May 08, 2006, 06:23:14 PM
When I was a lad just starting out I wrote software for an Air Force research lab. 
Two cases to illustrate Guys GIGO observation:

I found one statistical analysis package that had been modified by my boss which did not clear some variables following the entry of each data input set.  Thus when the data entry clerk worked all day, entering data collected from pilots in our most advanced in the world research flight simulator, by the end of the day the results were utter garbage.  I corrected this, but it had been used for 3 years prior, and no one ever relooked at the dozens of research papers and technical reports based on this bogus data.

I also wrote a financial package for monitoring our on-site contracts, expenses and their incremental funding.    It included color plots as I also wrote a flat bed plotter package.  It included a computer projection of future spending that was hilarious- it allowed the contracts manager to fudge his  previous anticipated spending profile for a contract so that the "computer projections" always showed his contracts to be "looking good" in full color. (The program assumed competence and convergence.)   We won awards for both the software and for our outstanding management- and no longer had to write lengthy reports explaining contract under/overages.  This is a "good" form of GIGO- my boss got to see what was going on with his contracts, had the source for the prediction software so new what to do to both cover his ass and get the contract expenses/funding where they should be.

As Guy pointed out- if you don't have and understand the source code, trusting a software package is risky  business.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 08, 2006, 06:47:34 PM
Boy is this off topic now lol!!!!!!

I can remeber doing line calculations in school on paper.....
It was involved.

Not what I was looking for but useful
http://www.peakpwr.com/index.htm

Watered down to excess
http://www.bsharp.org/physics/stuff/xmission.html

Fluffy but on track
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses

Different aplication but this explains looses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line#Lossy_transmission_line

Intersting read
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0002566

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 08, 2006, 08:14:04 PM
Now to contradict myself, the downside of an all in one is that if it fails, generally the whole thing is dead.  If you have to replace an all-in-one it is pretty expensive.

With discrete relays you just repair the relay that failed which generally is relatively cheap compared to a combo system.

More thoughts on this topic?
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Thomas on May 08, 2006, 08:46:21 PM
Pigseye could you draw up a basic plan of this and post it for us so we can see it  it would be good atleast for me.  I can read it but not always see the end result.  Tom T
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 09, 2006, 12:35:31 AM
Just found out how much a private transformer costs, $2000!  So if you're induction generator inter tied to the grid causes flicker on your neighbors power, you are responsible for installation of a private transformer.

Another tough hit if this is required.

Sorry Tom, I don't have a schematic drawn yet.  I could provide a single line drawing of each component.

Steve

 
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Thomas on May 09, 2006, 12:42:53 AM
That works just something tosho the relationsip of were things tie in to get the signel it needs to work right  and not be blocked by another component.   Tom
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 09, 2006, 01:44:31 AM
Tom,
It might not be that helpful, that's why I call it a single line drawing, not a schematic. 

I'll draw something up and post it.

Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 09, 2006, 03:05:23 AM
The single line drawing has been uploaded to the coppermine gallery.  user name is pigseye.


I don't know exactly how it would be wired but you should be able to get the idea. 

The Motor will have the start and running capacitors removed.

I think the M3410 has the ability to trip the relay if there is a reverse power condition.  This would occur if the Lister ran out of fuel.  In that condition, the generator becomes a motor and really stats to suck juice from the grid.

I think it can also sense when the grid goes down, it will disconnect the generator when that happens too.

Please note the M3410 has to let the grid power through to sync up the induction generator when the engine is started. 

WW2props uses the following process: 
1.  Start the lister
2.  Get the generator spinning but less than it's rated rpm
3.  Once the generator is spinning, engage the magnetic motor switch (note the generator must be spinning before grid power is applied.)
4.  Now the generator is being powered by the grid
5.  Monitor amperage of generator
6.  Increase rpms on the lister turning the generator faster than it rated RPM.
7.  Continue to increase the rpms of th lister until you reach the amperage output you desire.  See WW2Props comment below:

The simple calculation for most residential meters is kW=3.6 x kH/seconds per revolution.  Where kH is read from the meter face and seconds per revolution is the time it takes for the disk to make one revolution.  Check your calculations by observing the kWh used over a couple of hours when relatively constant loads are running (you might want to unplug the refrigerator for the test mine cycles a lot).  You could have CT ratios that need to be applied as well.

Backing up some of Jerry's points, I can run my generator at 28 amps and turn my meter disk at 1 revolution per 6 seconds.  Through the method above I calculte 4.3 kw +/-.

4300 watts/230volts is 18.7 Amps for usable power

28Amps - 18.7 Amps = 9.3 Amps for excitation

28 Amps x 230 Volts = 6440 Watts

4300 watts / 6440 Watts = .67 pf

Check out this thread.  You can see I learned everything there.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=145.0
   
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Thomas on May 09, 2006, 04:08:51 AM
Sounds like the back feed drop off works like a reverse phase realy. A single line drawing is what I know as a stright line print much easer to gollow as long as you know the component.  Thanks   Tom T
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 09, 2006, 07:02:40 PM
Sorry, I don't know all the correct terminology.  I think the Utility engineer called it a single line drawing, anyway I knew what she meant.

Hope it was helpful.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Thomas on May 09, 2006, 08:14:45 PM
Knowing what  is ment and getting the job done is what counts and I may be calling it the wrong name.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Andre Blanchard on May 09, 2006, 08:47:11 PM
Single Line Drawing
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1016v1/css/h1016v1_34.htm

Pictorial or Double Line Drawing
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1016v1/css/h1016v1_35.htm
____________
Andre' B.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Andre Blanchard on May 09, 2006, 08:52:23 PM
Electrical single line.
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1016v1/css/h1016v1_29.htm

Electrical schematic
http://www.tpub.com/content/doe/h1016v1/css/h1016v1_31.htm
___________
Andre' B.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 10, 2006, 02:18:29 AM
Thanks Andre
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: solarguy on May 11, 2006, 12:04:59 AM
If you manage to cook up your own home brew redundant (to whatever degree desired) safety gizmos, is it possible that you are sneaking up to the cost of the dreaded inverter with all the UL approved stuff built right in plus a bunch of other neat crap, including the ability to run from a modest battery bank and not be dead in the water if the grid goes down?

I anticipate that the inverters may actually get a bit cheaper in the next year due to volume.

Anybody priced one lately?

Finest regards,

troy
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 12, 2006, 03:38:28 AM
Hi SG,
Yep, that's another option.  My challenge is I need 240V and fairly high amperage for the central AC, this means dual inverters.  Pretty expensive even if prices go down.

You're right though, if I didn't have these types of needs for this home, I could really down size my electrical consumption and utilize an inverer strategy.

Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: randyracing on May 12, 2006, 09:32:05 PM
I found this sight with free shipping http://www.transferswitch4less.com/series165.html ,I'm in wis. to. I have the 6/1 from tryg very interested in net metering , Randy
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: GuyFawkes on May 12, 2006, 10:47:28 PM
no frequency synchronisation, so even if you use a UPS to bridge the gap between mains going out and gen coming on line, your shit is going to think the main breakers have tripped and been reset, so I can't really see the advantage of this sort of kit
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 12, 2006, 11:00:47 PM
Yup, that system won't help with net metering.  It's an emergency generator starter which has some neat automatic features but it will not allow you to run a generator while the grid is on line.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 13, 2006, 01:03:12 AM
    Yes sir it's looking more and more like the do it all Beckworth Black Box,I was hoping this was not the case but it seems the utility gets what it wants.The thing that puzzles me is how could one state say that a simple mag.starter will be good and another wants complete overkill :-\
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 13, 2006, 02:31:31 AM
Just to clarify, my engineer didn't say I had to use more controls, she said that i would be completely responsible if the recloser closed faster than a mag starter.  Although this wouldn't cause an issue with the grid, it could wreak havoc on my generator.

We have infrequent brownouts where power is out for less than a second.  What's odd is sometimes we'll have 2 or 3 in a couple of hours and then everything will be fine for a month or two.

I do not want my generator to be online due to parasitic kvars and then have the grid slam back on the generator.  If there is a simple way to monitor the voltage drop and then have the generator go offline rral fast, I will go that route.

Still interested in what others find for relay suggestion.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: SCOTT on May 13, 2006, 04:32:13 AM
Pig
Tyco electronics makes an over/under voltage relay that will do what you described.  I have done research into this, i have decided to use the Beckwith box.  I am in CT and when I add the cost of each component it is equal if not more than the Beckwith .  For those who do not need all the components take a look at these:
Components:

1

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/WOUF.pdf

cat#wouf-12-60-t

2

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/1000.pdf

cat# 1007

3

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/WUV-WOV.pdf

cat#wuv-3-208

4

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/700.pdf

cat #721

 Some of these may notbe required but it is a good starting point.

Scott
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 17, 2006, 05:47:34 AM
Scott,
Great list.  Thanks again. 

I think the only thing I need is the over under voltage relay.  If the grid goes down I presume there would be a significant drop in voltage even if there were parasitic vars.  If I set it fairly tight, like a trip point around 105V it should open up before the recloser trips.

Need some help though.  How would I wire this sensor with a contactor in my system?  Could someone draw up a quick schematic?

Thanks,
Steve 


Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: Doug on May 18, 2006, 02:56:00 AM
To wire up the contactor just run the power threw the contacts on your low voltage device to drive the coil. Everything should be in series....

I did some puttering today with some oil caps, resisitors and a variac ( variable voltage transformer ) to see if I could make a crude low voltage drop out coil with the kind of sensitivity you guys asked for.
The answere is yes, I was able to drop out a Struthers and Dunn 10 amp relay at about 100 volts without it chattering.

Here's hows it done:
Measure the coil current at 120 Vac, and then lower the voltage until the coil drops out and record.
I then played with a couple of resisitors and a very large oil capacitor ( from a light ballast ). and raise the resistance of the circut until I had about 120% of the drop out current. In practice these values will be different depending on your machines try different values of capacitors and resisitors.
The Cap is sort of optional its " resistance " increases as frequency drops helping to drop out the faster but since you need to do a little math to figure this out I would sugest newbies just stick with a resistor at first.

I wired this up with a standard 3 wire control stop start with the current limmiter in seriies with the holding contact. I guess I should make some drawing eh? And I think a short 3 second timer might be a smart idea to add. If time allows I'll wire up another with the timer, draw some pictures and photos for all to comment on.

My point being this looks practical, but I didn't include any values for you to follow because each relay and generating set will be a little different and this will need to be tuned.

Doug
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: listeroidsusa on May 18, 2006, 03:46:44 AM
I just scrapped a large 60 kw generator set because the generator had rats that chewed the windings. I saved all of the overvolt and undervolt relays. If you want them it'll cost $8.10 to ship a box of them to you. I don't know if you can use them but the price is right! IIRC they are adjustable. They look like some high dollar parts!

Mike Montieth
1452 Hwy 221 North
Rutherfordton, NC 28139
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 18, 2006, 12:57:11 PM
      If no one wants them Mike I'll take them....
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 18, 2006, 06:06:38 PM
Hi Mike,
I'm very interested.  When you say "all" do you mean there is more than one of each?  maybe I could extract what I think will work for my needs and forward the remainder to Schoust.

I can mail you some cash tonight and I'll include my shipping info.

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 18, 2006, 07:59:37 PM
  Hey Pigseye I am more than Likly going with the Beckworth Box I only threw my 2 cents in Just in case you were not going to take them,I could not resist I love old stuff like that...
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: jtodd on May 18, 2006, 11:13:12 PM
Perhaps I'm behind the times here, but I don't find many references to "Beckworth Box" in the forums here or via Google.  Do you have any web links or data on this device?  I assume it's some sort of switching device...

JT
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: listeroidsusa on May 19, 2006, 02:38:16 AM
Actually, I have the relays from 2 units, a 60 kw Kato, and a 30 kw Kurz & Root. My wife says I'm a packrat. Maybe so, but I can't stand to throw away good parts. You never know when you might need something. I'll make a list of what I have in case anyone needs anything.

Mike
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 19, 2006, 12:43:55 PM
   Mike,
I am interested in the other set and I would also like a filter setup could you give me a total shipped to 06751?  Thanks Ralph
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 19, 2006, 02:31:28 PM
Hi JT,
Check out this link

http://www.beckwithelectric.com/relays/m3410/m3410a.htm

Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: jtodd on May 19, 2006, 05:45:17 PM
Hi JT,
Check out this link

http://www.beckwithelectric.com/relays/m3410/m3410a.htm

Steve

Thanks for the link!  Looks very complete, as far as the control circuits are concerned.  I'd like to hear how it works for whoever installs one, and what extra parts are needed (sensors, etc.) for input and output.  My brief read of the tech sheet does not describe a contactor for switching power, so I assume that is also extra (and any links on a good contactor would be appreciated.)

I'd buy it, except...

  1) Looks like it's VERY expensive ($1000?  more?)
  2) Relies on lots of computers and fragile parts.  While I'm a computer
     person by trade, I am trying to make my genset no more complex than
     1960 technology (or reasonable facsimile thereof.)  I like relays I can
     fix with a tap of a finger and whose motivations I can see or hear with
     my eyes and ears.
  3) Possibly does not pass my 'longevity test'.  In 40 years, can I get a
     replacement for the panel easily?  Again, perhaps I'm building to
     unreasonable specifications, but I think that I'll still be maintaining
     this monster when I'm 80 and I'm trying to give my older self a break.  :-)
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: schoust on May 19, 2006, 08:28:05 PM
    Jtodd,
  These are my exact worry's this might be able to be done with relays it depends what your Utility wants ,there are those out there that run a simple magnetic starter and get away with it.I believe mine in Ct. is looking for somthing like this Beckworth box.As far as it being here in 40 years thats laughable,I do believe it has a five year limited warenty though...
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 20, 2006, 01:52:13 AM
Yup, I think it"s $1200 plus shipping and you need a power contacter.
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 22, 2006, 12:09:12 PM
Hi Mike,
Sorry I didn't get any cash mailed last week and now I'm laid up with a bad back.  Could I paypal you some money?  I'd be happy to send extra to cover any paypal charges.

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on May 24, 2006, 12:48:56 AM
Hi Mike,
Back is better today so I'll send some cash to you tomorrow after work.

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on July 13, 2006, 08:12:41 PM
Hey Guys,
Been offline for a while.  here's an update;

Mike (ListeroidsUSA) did send me a couple of relays but they were for 3 phase power and were both undervoltage.  They look really neat but I don't really know what to do with them since I'm trying to set up a single phase system.

I'll copy Mikes offer of sending them to anyone who wants them for shipping cost (about $8)

Mike,
I did get the check back but I still feel like I owe you for shipping.  Sorry for taking so long but I'll be dropping some cash ($8.10?) in the mail to cover shipping costs.

I've got another email to my utility engineer requesting clarification on the speed of their recloser.  She said in her original response that the fast recloser typically has a 3 second delay.  I'm presuming 3 seconds is plenty of time for an induction sytem to come offline and stay offline before the power comes back up.  But she also said that it might be faster than that.  So I want to understand how fast is faster.  I'll let you know what she says.

Although from an expense point this is probably a pipedream, I'm thinking of the following strategy

For intertie:
12hp twin listeroid
5 to 7.5hp single phase induction generator for intertie
Undervoltage relay to disconnect generator when power goes down
Reverse current relay to disconnect generator if grid power comes back up before intervention
Other parameters will be controlled via induction by the grid (frequency)

For long term power outage:
Swap belts from induction generator to 5 to to 7.5 kw ST gen head
Keeps lights, water pump, and fridge running

Cogen
Large thermal tank (800 gallons)

Non heating season
Coolant heat for domestic hot water

Heating season
Both coolant and exhaust heat will be used for home heating and domestic hot water

Concerns and questions:
Will the 12 hp be underloaded with a 5 hp motor used as an induction generator?
Will this system generate enough hot water heat for a family of 5 with 3 girls (not teenagers yet)
The utility engineer said at times I could be seeing voltages as high as 250V.  Will a 230V induction generator operate effectively if line voltage is 250V?

Your thoughts, opinions, and ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: trigzy on July 14, 2006, 01:24:04 AM
Pigseye,
      You can bet that faster than "that" will be at least a second (based on any recloser I have ever seen), plenty for any reasonable undervoltage relay and contactor setup.  The recloser operations will be faster when the weather is warmer, and slower as the temperatures get cooler, as the oil inside them flows slower in the cold .

I'd bet your motor might have more power on tap than a 5HP induction motor would be able to transfer, but that's just a guess, I didn't run any numbers....


Steve 
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on July 14, 2006, 03:08:46 AM
Trigzy,
Good to hear on the recloser.  Just want to make sure it's not in milliseconds or something like that.

I'm a little concerned on using a 5hp induction generator on a 12 hp lister.  It might be constantly underloaded even if I'm spinning the meter backwards. 

Might have to use 2 5hp induction motors (Just kidding). That might be a nightmare to keep in phase with the grid.

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: guest161 on July 14, 2006, 09:28:48 PM
I think Wwiprops went from a 5 hp to a 7.5 hp baldor cause he was worried about the heat buildup on the 5 hp. Single phase, and if memory serves me a 6/1
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on July 17, 2006, 10:26:13 AM
You're right Fuelishnot, WWII Props uses a 7.5hp Baldor.

What do people think of this motor?

10 hp 1740rpm 215T Frame TEFC (Farm Duty) 230 Volts Leeson Electric Motor # 140706

    * 230 volts 40.0 amps 60hz.
    * TEFC - Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled - Electrically Reversible
    * Manual Overload Protection - Service Factor 1.0
    * NEMA 215T Frame - Flat Rigid base mount - 1 3/8" Diameter shaft x 3 3/8"
    * Class F Insulated - Ball Bearings w/low temp grease

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009WSRYA/ref=nosim/104-1221003-4000758?n=228013

I'd use this with a 12hp Listeroid.

Or since I'm net metering, is a 10 hp induction generator a little overkill.  One thought I had was I wouldn't have to run the engine as long every month.  The downside is a 12 hp is double the price of a 6hp. 

The nice thing about a 12 hp motor is if the grid does go down I could have a back up 7.5 kW generator.  I know the gen head is a little oversized for this motor but I'm hoping I'd have a little more head room with the 7.5kw for the well pump.

All insight or comments are appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve

 

Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: randyracing on July 27, 2006, 09:45:26 AM
pigseye can you sumerize what is all needed to operate unit for net metering in wisconsin,
Title: Re: Auto or Manual transfer switches
Post by: pigseye on July 27, 2006, 04:10:46 PM
Sure I'll try to get to it this weekend.  For now, please review this thread from start to finish.  You'll learn alot.

Steve