Lister Engine Forum
Alternative fuels => Waste Vegetable Oil => Topic started by: jimmer on February 03, 2006, 07:56:52 PM
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The title says it all.
Is anyone heating the line from the injection pump to the injector when using WVO?
I am setting up a WVO system and am not sure if I need to include that line in the heating circuit.
Thanks,
Jim
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If you are running on WVO or SVO, you should only switch over from pump fuel once the engine is up to working temperature. This will mean the injecto line is aleady heated.
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Why must the engine be at working temperature?
My WVO tank and lines will be heated.
These engines take quite a while to reach working temperature.
Thanks,
Jim
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Trying to start a cold engine, with cold oil in the pump system is hard, the oil isn't viscous enough to spray proporly from the injector, once the eingine is warmed up, the oil "melts" a bit and is then suitable for the injector to use.
I'm running my van on WVO and even with heated fuel lines, the oil that is in the pump when the engine cools overnight, is enough to give me serious problems to start in the morning if i forget to switch back to pump fuel before i park up.
I've been doing the WVO thing for years now, it's great when it's warm, but cold nights mean cold engines, cold engines mean cold oil, cold oil means you can dislocate your shoulder before your eninge will fire!
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sb118,
I know you don't start or stop on WVO. I was asking about the working temperature statement.
I'm still not sure the injector line will be heated enough by the engine alone.
Are you running WVO in your Listeroid?
Thanks,
Jim
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Ahh sorry, didn't mean to teach you to suck eggs, new to the board, not worked out who is doing what yet!
The engine heat will be sufficient to warm the injector line, the heatsoak from the cylinder head will do the job, adding extra heating will be wasted.
Still running my aircooled single on dino diesel right now, working on my engine room (soundproofing the shed basically) so i can put two tanks in place properly. (got a big supply of used engine oil lined up too)
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After running my 8/1 (185 deg. thermostat) under load for 3 hours today I observed the following:
Building 45 deg. F.
Head too hot to touch (no surprise).
Radiator good and hot.
Injector line not even warm to the touch. I assume that the cool diesel fuel is keeping the line cool.
It seems like heating the injector line might be a good idea.
One thing for sure, the block is not heating the injector line.
Comments??
Thanks,
Jim
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Must admit, i'm amazed. Normally the oil gets masses of heat from the fuel pump and that seems to be fine.
If you've got surplus heat to put towards the injector line, go for it.
Are you hoping to cut down the "switch over" time between fuels?
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Yes, currently my daily runtime seldom exceeds 3 or 4 hours.
Thanks,
Jim
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If I can get enough WVO to make it worth doing I have been thinking of using a large 45 gal drum for cooling and putting a 20 gallon day tank mounted inside the coolant tank. If you start and stop on diesel the coolant will keep the WVO liquid. I had thought of using WVO as the coolant, but the mess every time I took the head of would be a rel pain.
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I run start and stop on un heated wvo in my 1987 Ford f-250! Its only mandatory to switch over if you are running wvo with a high fat content a easy way to get rid of the fat is to decant the oil. Bottle the oil while it is warm or warm it then simply let the fat settle to the bottom and pour off the golden good juice!
Peace&Love :D, Darren
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Does the F-250 have haeter plugs? I'm running a 95 Transit (without heaters) and it refuses point blank to start from cold with asistance.
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Peace&Love, :D Darren
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heh, not here it doesn't! i cold filter mine, and high melting point fats get caught in the filters (read that as clog the hell out of the filters :(), so all that goes into the van is the good stuff, it just gets too thick overnight for me not to have to swear at it.
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I'm planning on running WVO in my lister and was going to wrap some copper tubing around the exaust pipe to heat up the oil before it hits the injector pump. Does anybody see a problem with this other than maybe the oil getiing too hot?
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Peace&Love :D, Darren
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I would agree with Darren, though I have no empirical evidence to back it up – it does make sense. All my research seems to conclude that between 160 and 180 degrees F is the ideal temperature range for feeding a diesel engine WVO. I would assume that the exhaust based heat exchange system would be to unreliable, vary in temp greatly, and almost certainly run too hot overall for good results. I think a controlled liquid cooled system is better and am making that design for my Listeroid.
I am planning my WVO conversion for my 12/2 but right now, I begrudgingly admit, I have not yet even started my Listeroid.
I went to the scrap yard yesterday, and got some serious I-beam and some other metal framing material that I will use to make a frame for the engine and ST head, but I thought I would use copper water cooling lines wrapped around the exhaust pipes to capture additional waste heat -- but not use this to heat the WVO directly.
I like the idea of converting my Lister to an active liquid cooled system, and tapping copper tubing around the exhaust flanges to capture more heat after the coolant has left the engine. I will employ a heat exchanger radiator to harvest the waste heat from the engine in the winter, and route the coolant to an external radiator in the summer (until I build my Stirling engine to use that waste heat!). Of course, I have the cooling system thermostatically controlled, like in a car.
Ambitious? I think so, but I have almost all the parts in, and am waiting really for the weather to get warm enough for me to work in the garage without getting blue lips.
I too, am running the Frybrid WVO conversion in my car, and it works wonderfully. I learned a lot from Frybrid’s owner, Chris Goodwin, regarding decisions he made when designing his system. Things like the coolant system is an ideal means of heating WVO because it is a fairly reliable and stable means of using waste heat to heat the fuel almost exactly in the ideal temperature pocket suitable for WVO fuel heating. I also love his "hose in hose" design as a means of keeping the who warm when going from tank to engine and back.
I currently have the high bid on a Pollack 6 port valve on Ebay – and with any luck, I will have all the parts for my first attempt in time for the snow to melt so I can get into my garage again!
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Put a representative sample of the WVO in a skillet and heat it up while monitoring the temp with an infrared temp gun. Note the temp when the oil starts to change state: carmelling, carbon formation, bubbles of water, or anything you wouldn't want to see plate out in the line or injector, or get gritty and clog or wear the injector.
When you run your new heat exchanger system, monitor the outside of the fuel line with the temp gun and see how close you get to your self assigned danger point.
NOTE: THIS IS JUST MY PRACTICAL IDEA, I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS MYSELF.
Any other comments, improvements, or wise cracks are WELCOME.
Scott E
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First post here.
Injector line heaters are a relatively new tool inthe VO conversion toolbox.
Those currently commercially avaialbe are pretty crude.
I am currently retrofitting several hundred heavy trucks with a more efficient design line heater and have had several listeroids using them for some time. Fuel consumption goes down indicating better fuel efficiency. On large turck ther is a comparative HP increase but I do not see this on small diesel engines like the Listers.
Combustion chamber carbon accretions..especially on the valves also appears to decrease significantly especially on engines run below thier optimum throttle setting or idled for significnat amounts of time.
At the very least light foam insulation helps avoid heat loss from the injector lines and is cheap and easy to add.
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com
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Hey Guys. I am running a mix of veggie and WMO. I have a radiator from a Mazda for cooling. I start the engine on dino or bio let it get to operating temp and then switch to the mixture. I should also add the the radiator is for an automatic so I use this coil for heating the mixtuer, filter threw a fuel oil filter (General 1A2-5A) available at most hardware stores. This filter is also heated. I also heat the IP filter housing and the injector line. Sounds like over kill but I have had no issues...... yet.
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Hey guys check this thread out. It's for RAW veggie oil, might be able to use lower temp for WVO. Anyway, it's a university study of using preheated RVO in a Listeroid. Sounds very promising.
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Hi folks, I sent Ken an injector line heater for testing...
Here's what Ken had to say...
We are on the 3rd day of 24/7 running on the lister. The outside temps are running below zero. The temp in the gen shed is in the 50's. I have been running the line heater you sent me the entire time. I have noticed that the engine seems to have a bit more power, is runninmg very smooth, and the "Carbon Knock" that should have arrived by now hasn't. I strongly believe that the line heater is doing a very goood job!!
Best regards .... Ken
Last night it was -28*(f) and the barrel heater for the VO supply failed. The Fattywagon Line Heater kept working and the generator kept running until the oil in the barrel thickened so much the pump would not move it. The Line Heater protected the engine from ever getting way too cold VO. I restarted on diesel, turned on the heaters in the barrel and was able to switch back to WVO within an hour. As of 5am today the generator has been running 24/7 since last Tuesday at 5am (72hrs). The only time is was down was during the failure of the VO heat, less then 30 minutes.
Ken Gardner
The temperatures have climed up out of the sub-zeros, 10 above last night for a low. A real heat wave is predicted for today at above 30*
The Lister/generator ran 139 hours, 24/7 with the only time down needed for changing the VO filter and check engine oil. It burned right at 31 gallons of oil on this run. Most of the time it was running between 80-90% of full throttle providing power to the electric heaters in our cabin.
After my last long 24/7 run of 3 days the engine had carboned up to the point that the exhaust valve had hung open and was burned. I replaced it and cleaned up the head and piston. By the end of that run it also had a "Carbon Knock" caused by the build up of carbon on the head and piston.
This time John of www.fattywagons.com had blessed me with a fuel line heater. It heats the line between the IP and injector. Now there is no "Carbon Knock", the valves move freely, and the engine started right up this morning, no problem. In the past I would have to at least taken the head off and most likely clean the carbon out, and perhaps freed up the valves, but not this time. I believe that the reason is because the Fattywagon Fuel Line heater added the extra boost of heat just before the injector resulting in a far better burn, thus no carbon buildup.
Ken Gardner
If anyone is interested I sell the injector line heater for $18 www.fattywagons.com
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And I have a slightly more advanced line heater design available for $12 incl. shipping.
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Yikes -28?
I live in Norhtern Ontario and the AC is running? Where does this poor bugger live????
Doug
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the real difference in usefulness of Injector Line Heaters comes from low-consumption engines. People who ahve experience with large automotive engines say it's not needed and dangerous, but that's becasue they suck fuel so fast that it has little dwell time in the Injector Lines to cool down. If you drive a new VW Jetta that gets 50mpg, you will start to care very soon. Listers fall into this category. How long does it take the VO to go from the IP to the Injector? In the F350 I had, it would take 8 seconds to purge at idle before shutting down. Now you've got one cylinder sipping fule at MUCH lower rate... and how long is that line? Another reason that large-engine owners don't see a use for Injector Line Heaters, is still the very same. Since the oil isn't in the line for very long, it doesn't pick up much heat from it either. Dwell Time effects both ends of that argument.
Some say the Injector Line heaters make it too hot... I say they don't understand the idea of pulse-width modulation. I bet a piece of nichrome wire that's 6 inches long will get pretty darn hot dropped across your alternator to ground... I say to these people: How about a longer load, instead of telling us that Injector Line Heaters suck just becasue you didn't think about the installation properly? Would you blame your car if you drove it off a cliff, too? It must be the tires, tires are bad....
The point is to keep the oil at 160-180F. 200F doesn't hurt for slower flow operations. But 400F "because of the damn line heaters" is just not using the heaters properly.
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Ken lives in Montana..but it was an old post from last winter that Fatty posted from him.
Its a bit warmer there now. ;D
" People who have experience with large automotive engines say it's not needed and dangerous, but that's becasuse they suck fuel so fast that it has little dwell time in the Injector Lines to cool down"
I would have to respectfully disagree.
Though you may in fact be paraphrasing one of my past statements.
The main application I am using injector line heaters on is large diesel truck engines.
Having run fairly extensive dyno and over the road testing I am satisfied that the line heaters I use are increasing combustion efficiency significantly by raising the VO temp to over 200°F prior to entering the injectors. I have also tested them extensivly on small low speed diesel gesets and found that combustion efficiency was raised by nearly the same %. The main advantage ot using them on small constant load diesel is a lowering of carbon based valve, ring land, and head accretions and longer maintenance intervals. We tend to get significantly less lube oil polymerization as well.
Improperly designed injector line heaters can be dangerous and inefficient.
Which is why the developer/manufacturer of the ones I use invested in very extensive testing (R&D) before I was even willing to give them a try let alone advise fleet clients that they were a wise investment.
So far over 3200 of them have been installed on clients trucks.
On these large engines the cost of installing them is paid back in fuel savings in less than 4 weeks.
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Perhaps I was unclear. I was saying that of those persons who say Injector Line Heaters are superfluous/dangerous, you'll find few with small engines among them who aren't having to do major repairs.
Certainly you are correct. Any engine can benefit from them.
The lack of them has a more dramatic impact on a small engine, was the point I was trying to make. It cools off even more. Thusly, I would almost call them mandatory on a small engine. My 4cyl engines will not be running WVO without Injector Line Heaters, period. You can get by without them, but life is so much better with them.
Would you be willing to elaborate on the design/installation technique that you use for your Heaters?
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Send me an email (in my sig) and I will send you a few of the installation sequence pics.
One picture is worth a page of descriptions. ;D
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I cool my Lister with an automotive radiator, and was wondering how much the temp rise of the WVO would be, if I were to pump it through the transmission cooler lines... Anyone have experience doing this? The engine runs at 190 degrees, with a 16" box fan running, drawing 70 watts (Kill-a-Watt)...thanks.
Richard
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While I was running the WVO through the transmission line of the radiator all was fine. The only dray back was waiting for the water to get up to temp. I am in the process of changing my setup to the following:
I have an outside water stove made by Taylor Mfg. I am taking the "cool" water off of the bottom of the stove and using it for my engine coolant and the excess heat heats my domestic hot water in the summer ;D. The water stove has provisions for domestic hot water coils so I will use one of the extra coils to heat my WVO to 180 - 185*F the run through a WELL insulated line to the first of two filters and then to the IP on to the injector via a WELL insulated injection line. In my experience if the oil is not hot enough the you will have LOTS of carbon build up. I start on diesel get to temp switch to WVO then flush the system with diesel before shutting down.
What type of filters is everyone using for their WVO? I prefilter my oil to get the rocks out. Then filter through a whole house water filter(3 micron) then a NAPA fuel filter to catch any Water.
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Dear Johny,
It would be fun to see your installation.
One thing I would be concerned about is the time it will take the wvo to go through the water furnace outside, then through the well insulated fuel line to the engine. It takes a tiny amount of fuel to run most of these engines and depending on line length the transit time could be 30-60 minutes or more.
You could always put one of Fattywagon's injector line heaters on there for the final preheat.
Good luck and have fun!
troy
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Hey Troy
I do not have this all set up as yet but am working on it my spare time that the wife does not take up. I will be using 3/4" PEX pipe due to my inabity to solder and lack of threading machine. The pex will bi insulated with foam pipe wrap with 1" walls. The final fuel filter is also heated with bypass water from the head. I will post pics ASAP.
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I suspect if you calculate the volume of the fuel line vs the rate of fuel consumption, the dwell time could be hours with something as big as PEX.
Keep us posted how you make out.
Finest regards,
troy
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Hey guys sorry for the long time to update. I did change my plans just a bit. I used 3/8X.065 SS tubing instead of PEX. I ran the tubing inside of the insulation on the water return line. Stays GOOD AND HOT. No acurate temp. just VERY hot to the touch. The NAPA fuel filter, as I have said before, is heated with the bypass hose with 8 turns of copper tubing and then insulated with fiber glass w/ vinyl backing. I also have the IP line to the injector 1/2 assed insulated but it does stay very hot to the touch. Have ran all day today, after decarboning, and no problems at all. The water stove started out at 185* at 8:00 this morning and when last checked at 6:00 the temp was 205*. Will try to post some pics after4 the engine is in tis final working place.
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At the moment I have a two-tank system and switch between diesel and WVO on start-up and shut down. The thing is the amount of dino I use to do this. I want to reduce my reliance on diesel.
Firstly, is it wise and possible to heat up the injector line and start up on WVO and where can I get an injector line heater in the UK?
Are these things usually 12v.
If it’s foolish to try this, any suggestions on reducing the amount of diesel I use to start up/shut down. Could I tap into the fuel line after the filter with the diesel but before the fuel pump (and maybe use a two filter system)?
Thx Ian
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It is possible to heat up the injector line and start on VO..but cold starting on VO may hasten ring land/groove coking. Not a big a deal in lister engines as auto and truck diesels.
The injector line heaters I use exclusively are available from:
http://lineheaterspecialists.netfirms.com/
I believethat they ship world wide at no extra charge.
Which is remarkable IMO.
Dana
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Greetings from Hogsback South Africa, I am in the process of setting up a LISTER SR1 with a Hoffburg alternator,
The engine starts easily when outside temprature is warm.
I will be needing some form of preheating when cold.
I have a 12 volt heating element that is designed to go into the flue of a small gas/propane fridge.
Could I use this to preheat the fuel line?
If I were to use a gas/propane torch, where should I direct the flame? On the aluminium air intake duct?
Any simple and successful ideas from you folk as to how I can start this LISTER SR1 easily when the temprature drops and the snow breaks the mains power lines?
We were without mains power for six days last snow fall.
So I don't want to break my arm next time the temprature drops trying to start a COLD Lister.
Many thanks
Denis
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The SR should be equipped with cold-start cups on each inlet port. You pour 1 tablespoon of lube oil into each cup and inject prior to starting up. This will raise the compression ratio to allow for colder temperature starts. You can also equip the unit with an air preheater element inside the intake manifold. This is common for cold weather modifications on this model. These have been detailed elsewhere on this forum or you can request further detail from me. Preheating fuel lines is not a good cold-start solution except for cases using alternative fuel types.
dieselgman
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Hello Sined,
In earlier times we started tired old diesels in cold weather with a home made "flare". We took something like a rolled up old woollen sock with a wire tie round it for a handle, poured a spoon or 2 of diesel on it and lit it up. Remove aircleaner and hold the burning flare over intake while cranking. The hot air and smoky diesel mix was usually good for a quick start. Put the flare on a clean surface and step on it to extinguish flame. you get a lot of starts from one old sock. These days most folk can find a propane torch to do the same job easier. You may need to make a holder for the torch if you are without an assistant. No substitute for heat on a cold engine. Winter grade engine oils make cold cranking a lot easier too. Light oils are fine in your aircooled SR in cold weather. It has no temp control, so keep it loaded for clean running.
Regards, Combustor.
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I am planning to heat my high pressure line up to around 150c as I hear that the viscosity of Veggie oil is about the same as diesel at that temperature, so hopefully it will provide for a nice clean injection and thus a cleaner burn with less carbon. My plan is to use Nicrome wire wrapped around the line and then use PWM to control the voltage to it and therfore the heating. The fuel will also be heated up above 100 degrees prior to entering the fuel pump which will allow any water to boil off (im hoping) into the atmosphere through some kind of an air bleed off that I haven't thought about too much yet...
I only have one question though, I am pretty sure it will be ok to heat diesel up to 150C but I thought I should just pose it to the forum as when I changeover from diesel to WVO I don't know the exact point where the HP line will be filled with WVO so I am hoping it will be ok to heat diesel up to that temp without causing any ill effects. What do you guys reckon?
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Hello all,
Let's have a think about what is happening to oil as it flows thru the system of something like our old Lister(oid). We will need to have warmed it enough to get it fairly fluid prior to the injector pump drawing it in and pushing it up the line, so some preheater/exchanger will be needed. If this is warmed by the coolant, it will only become effective when the coolant is warm enough to ensure reasonable fluidity, my guess is around 60*c , say 130*f, and it will take some time to warm the cold body of the pump, which on a Lister is somewhat isolated from head and block. A bit of lagging round it may help to reduce heat loss, but the fuel volume passing thru the pump is small, so it will take a while. When the pump body has reached the above temp range it will be capable of handling the still slightly viscous oil, but you need to retain this heat just by INSULATING the injector line with foam tape etc, and then when the oil reaches the metal mass of the injector body now surrounded by a warm head, it will pick up further heat, and as it arrives at the nozzle which is in close thermal contact with the combustion chamber via its copper seating washer, the tiny shot of fuel will be hot enough to atomise at the nozzle tip. The final injection temperature of the oil will mainly be determined by the temperature of the lower end of the injector body and nozzle tip. You can pre heat it to hell and it will still be injected at nozzle temperature. So change-over from warmup fuel depends on having the pump at least warm to the touch, as these old low speed pumps will handle stuff somewhat thicker than diesel, and there is not a lot of restriction for small fuel flows till it arrives at the nozzle tip, where it should be very close to head temperature. So for good atomisation and clean running I feel that switching to oil should not happen till the head is not too far below its normal loaded running temp range. We can complicate things with line heaters etc, but as long as we can retain most of the heat applied before and around the pump, the heat from the head and injector body will take care of the rest. Just my observations on the subject, Regards, Combustor.
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My plan is to use Nichrome wire wrapped around the line
How are you planning to electrically insulate the nichrome wire? Bear in mind the injection line is metal, and less resistant than nichrome, so will preferentially conduct most of your current if you don't insulate...
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I use a system like this run off a 12v power supply.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WASTE-VEGETABLE-OIL-WVO-SVO-INJECTOR-LINE-HEATER-KIT-/150731507517?hash=item23184c473d&item=150731507517&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_500wt_949
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My plan is to use Nichrome wire wrapped around the line
How are you planning to electrically insulate the nichrome wire? Bear in mind the injection line is metal, and less resistant than nichrome, so will preferentially conduct most of your current if you don't insulate...
Good question, you can buy cheap insulation tape with good thermal properties to prevent it from melting
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-High-Temperature-Voltage-Insulation-Tape-Amber-W-8mm-/130508855319?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e62ef1817
I am planning to wrap this around the HP line, I am planning to heat about 150mm prior to entry into the heat, and possibly just insulating the rest of the injector line, I am thinking about using coolant to warm the fuel prior to pump entry, this way I can start and stop the system on diesel but only for a minimum amount of time (no need to let the actual pump warm up).
I think having the heaters on there is a good way to bring the temperature up higher than it would normally be, because even though the injector will warm the fuel up somewhat it won't be much above 80 degrees as you get cooling of the fluid as it travels along the HP line. I have seen a few tests around that test the viscosity of WVO at different temperatures and with different mixtures and putting RUG in there seems to thin it out but the only way to get it the same viscosity as diesel (my aim) is to heat it up to that temperature, I think the injector will cool the fuel down slightly but not right back down to the same temp as the head... maybe to 120C or slightly higher....
To others this might seem really messy and prone to failure etc, which it is compared to the original simple nature of the lister but I am also planning to put on an oil pump and electric governor etc etc so it doesn't matter if the system is more complicated as I would rather it be more automated instead... as for messy I'm going to seal it up and it won't look too unsightly the wires will simply get routed into the controller box that I build for it and that will be that.
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Hello combustor
You can pre heat it to hell and it will still be injected at nozzle temperature.
I tend to disagree that it will only be injected at nozzle temperature, I have read some experiments from people who have heated injector lines and they reckon that it makes a difference when it comes to carbon build up which mainly occurrs if the fuel doesnt burn properly (possibly too cold), once they install the heater then it burns a lot more cleanly. The main story that sticks in my mind is the one of the guy in the snowy cabin that runs his generator 24/7 he said after he installed the line warmer the carbon reduced significantly, I can't remember where I read it, it was on one of the forums. Although this might be true I don't think he had insulated his HP line though so maybe if he had have it would of kept the fuel warm enough.
Once I get my set I will definitely be doing some tests to see whether heating the line does make the system more efficient / effective at burning WVO... If the HP line only requires insulating and runs as clean as a line heated to 150C then that would be great.